Will Barrett (Director of Field Operations at Threshold 360)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode.

Hey everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for you for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and for the good of others. Each week I'm hosting a conversation with a follower of Jesus Christ who is also pursuing world class mastery of their work, of their vocation. We talk about their path to mastery. We talk about their daily habits and routines and how their faith influences their work. Today I am really thrilled to share a conversation I recently had with my good friend Will Barrett. Will is the director of field operations at threshold360. And for those of you who are familiar with my work, you know that in addition to creating content like this podcast, I also serve as executive chairman of that company of Threshold 360. And I ran the company for two and a half years as CEO and actually I believe Will was my first full time hire. I almost fired him on day one as we talk about in this episode. Not because he was underperforming, but because I was going to eliminate the role that he was filling at the time. And he turned out to be one of the most exceptional leaders I've ever worked with in my life. I have so much respect for Will and his leadership skills.

So Will and I recently sat down.

To talk about our experience working together at Threshold 360 what Will has learned after making more than 100 hiring decisions in less than three years. Talk about tremendously valuable wisdom and experience there. That was probably my favorite part of the conversation. And then we talked about the spiritual significance of Will's two of clubs, two tattoo. Will's a former poker player, started playing when he was a teenager, bought a car from his winnings. We talked about the spiritual significance of this big two of clubs that's printed on his arm. I think you're really going to get a lot out of this conversation. Without further ado, here's my conversation with one of the most masterful leaders I know, Will Barrett.

I'm here with my good friend Will Barrett. Will, how are you?

You're shaking. You're so nervous.

I'm not nervous, but we are recording in the coldest room ever.

The coldest Room in Florida.

The coldest room in Florida by far. We're here at the library in downtown Tampa and I just asked if they could turn the air up and they refused. So it's been six months since I left Threshold as CEO.

Yeah. Best six months of.

Best six months of the venture. Right. So as my listeners know, I'm now chairman of the board. But. But I think I told this to Kara after I came in for a meeting. At some point in the last six months, I feel like you guys didn't miss a beat like when I left, which was in some levels satisfying, but at the same time very depressing. That was very humbling. I mean, did I read that right? Yeah.

Here's the thing I would say though. I mean, a startup like us that changes. I was telling the Uber driver on the way here about this, how much things change. I don't know if I care too much, but we change every day, every week. And so in a way that makes it easier, maybe I'm just thinking through this now, but when you're changing so much already, even a big change like that sort of maybe minimizes the impact. Plus, you know, who took over was already in the fold already. A C level person.

Yeah.

Or like respect to the team and knowing that you would still be around and connected.

Yeah. It is interesting. Like when you're growing as fast as Threshold has over the last couple years, is this like constant change? Like something is always changing? So like where leadership changes in bigger institutions may be catastrophic.

Right. I mean, the trickle down to department heads from there, I imagine is huge.

Yeah. Like everybody.

Yeah. But in a decision like this, when we're still small enough, where everybody's pretty well informed and involved in the decision and the transition plan.

Yeah.

And then they kind of know how best to manage their team and empathize and communicate with them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I couldn't imagine a big organization. I hope to never deal with that.

So we're going to talk about that and your startup experience and we're going to talk a lot about Threshold, obviously. So for those who don't know, what is threshold360? What do we do with threshold360?

I'm not the director of marketing or sales, so you'll get the ops perspective. We're a 360 imagery platform. This is really weird because you're still kind of my boss, but we've built a really incredible platform for Capturing and distributing 360 imagery, or virtual tours would be kind of the common vernacular. So in its current form, now it's a platform that companies, especially in the hospitality industry, can partner with us. And it's a way for them to get access to really incredible interior imagery and content for a lot of their partners. So if you want to explore a neighborhood, we think that we're kind of the only one that can give you the ability to explore a neighborhood. Right?

Yeah. So people are familiar with 360 tours. Right. I mean, this type of content's been around forever. Difference is the way the content has historically been created. It's been a professional photographer going door to door selling restaurant owners, you know, hey, pay me $800, I'll come in here, I'll shoot the space. We take a very different approach. We create content for every restaurant, every hotel, every shop in a city in a few weeks, most of the time.

Right, right. I mean, so the big barrier there, and I tell this story a dozen times a day on like recruiting calls and interviews. That's a big part of my role in kind of explaining it's. You know, we started in 2014 and one of the punches, the premises that Threshold was built on is just are investors, co founders noticing there's a huge lack in interior imagery. You can't really virtually step inside of almost anywhere. Even though this program, Google's been focusing on it and pouring resources into it for years at that point. And no one had really cracked that nut. So we really sought to crack that nut. And it became all about speed, scale, volume. How do we capture locations quickly, really saturate a place where we can say, hey, anywhere in Tampa, Florida, in New York City, you can look inside of this place.

Yeah. So if you've come across a location on Google Maps. Right. That has this interior 360 imagery, you know, like, it's like super informative. Right. Like you can get way more information about the ambiance of a space, of the layout of the space where you might want to sit, all those different things, especially at hotels. It's even more valuable at hotels than you can from like two dimensional photography. The problem we're solving is like scale, right? Yeah, yeah.

It's incredible. Decision grade information is one way we would put it.

Yeah.

Historically it's always been like art staged. Very professional photography, kind of geared toward real estate. You know, I'm going to spend 30 minutes in this experience. We took a very different approach of people just want to look inside, everybody's on mobile. I'm going to this restaurant, let me check it out for five seconds before I go there. With a large group and it's not really for that.

Yeah. So you don't need like, like DSLR quality photography. Although I would argue our content's getting pretty close to that.

Yeah. And it's getting there. I think our timing, we're very fortunate with timing. So I mean, just kind of basic startup principles. Right. You can have incredible concepts, incredible team, incredible product, and your timing can be wrong.

Yeah.

And then, you know, we've seen a lot of companies kind of die to that. It just wasn't their time. Five years too early. It's typically not five years too late. You wouldn't make any traction. But a lot of times it's five, ten years too early.

Yeah. And just to make this a little bit more practical for our listeners to understand. So traditional model, creating 360 imagery. You take a big DSLR rig, you would spend a half a day in a coffee shop to shoot it. We come in and create content at a restaurant. In 60 seconds, we're in and out, we create the content. That's how we can do San Francisco in four months, get the whole city done.

Right. If you break it down that way, there's 20,000 points of interest in a major metro area. Say how many independent freelancers are going to go in with DSLRs and spend a half day shoot at every single cafe, bar, restaurant, and how many of those are going to pay them 500 to $1,000 to do it?

Right.

This is, it's not, it's never going to happen.

So we're creating the future. Right. We're just saying we're going to go build the asset. And the business model is different than the professional photographer. So the professional photographer is making a profit on selling the service to the hotel, to the restaurant. We go in, we create the asset, most of the time at no cost to the location owner. But then we license that content out to organizations who are licensing content for or who are marketing lots of locations. So San Francisco Travel is a customer of ours. Right. So they're marketing every hotel and every restaurant, every attraction in San Francisco. And we're kind of the only way that they could get that content. Right, Right.

Yeah.

And there's markets who are. They're realizing we need to sell location, we need to sell destination as well. So these are hotels, lodging, short term rentals. They're realizing we have to distinguish ourselves. I mean the short term rental market, for example, Airbnb and these types have exploded. Of course, we all know this. Well now they're sort of competitive with each other. And how do we sell neighborhood and give kind of our prospective guests a better sense of the whole area that's around us? So increasingly our content, it's starting to make more sense and kind of find its place in other markets as well. But yeah, essentially our business model is different. There's enterprise customers who want the content.

So we've created this content now at well over 100,000 locations. We've experimented in a bunch of different. I mean, we have content In I think 20 different nations operations at this point. So that's a massive undertaking. Right. And your job as director of Field Operations is essentially to go get the content. Right. You're not developing the software, you're managing the team on the ground that's getting the content. So tell us. I think hopefully our listeners understand what threshold360 does. Tell us what you do as Director of Field Ops.

Right. So it really is that go get the content. So we're an interesting business in that we're a SaaS platform. This piece of technology, you know, you buy into and can use, but we have this hard dependency, if you will, which content has to be in it. And typically for us, it's a lot of content. So a normal project for us would be go capture somewhere between 100 to 1,000 locations or more. So these are physical locations. I and my team have to find a way to get someone there to show up at the place and capture the content. So, you know, we equip these people in the field, we call them creators, with the 360 cameras, which we're continually sort of assessing and that evolves and changes every quarter, every six months or so, as they get better and better like technology does. So we get them the equipment they need, the training, and then what I'd say I'm most proud of now, even since you left, is the level of support that we provide those people. Because at the end of the day, like for my management team, we're playing much more of a logistics game. That is the difficult part of this. We've built the technology to make it go fast. The cameras are there in place. They're getting better and better. It becomes really a logistics management tough puzzle to solve.

Yeah.

To get to and capture a thousand locations efficiently, it's incredibly complicated.

Will has one of the harder jobs on the team, so I thought it'd be fun to. Actually, this is somewhat selfish. I just want to take a trip down memory lane and revisit kind of our personal timelines within this venture we love. Right. So at the risk of Sounding selfish. I guess I'll start because since I started the company before you and we' kind of meet in the middle. So I actually served as a consultant on this venture that didn't have a name at that point. It wasn't called threshold360. I served as a consultant on the project from it was like September ish of 2015 to October 2016.

Right.

And I love the founder's vision. I mean the vision from day one was allow anybody to virtually step inside of any location on earth. It was like wildly audacious. I think that gets like anybody really excited. So as a consultant, I was helping the founders and the CEO at the time experiment with a bunch of different business models. And the founders came to me one day and like, hey, we really think you're the guy to like bring the company to market, choose a business model, help us make that choice, help us build the team and really, you know, start to find product, market fit and start to scale. Right. So I started CEO full time in October 2016. I had a consulting practice working with early stage companies. I shut it down to put all my eggs in the threshold360 basket because I believed in the vision that much. Yeah. So start October 2016 and on week one pretty much fired me. Almost everybody, Right?

That's one way to put it. Yeah.

Well, what's another way? What's another way to put it?

Yeah, a lot of people, by the way, that is what happens not just in a transition, a switch over, but the reality of that becomes very hard for people to deal with. So when like, I mean, even the Uber driver, what's it like at a startup, you know, and I give the short answer over years time, it's you change so much. And it's not just the change. People have a hard time dealing with change. It's this, right? Like people leave or forced to leave sort of at rapid pace. New people show up, the business model changes so much. So you know, when people typically have focuses like some sort of specialization and when your model changes next quarter, that specialization is no longer needed.

Yeah.

So it becomes very hard to manage and manage the morale.

And so I didn't fire everybody, maybe 50% of the team on week one. And I almost fired you. And I'm very glad I didn't. So week one, I come in, I almost fire you. It wasn't like you weren't performing, you were just doing a role that I didn't think was necessary within the company anymore. So pick up the story from there and talk about Kind of your trajectory within the company and our first interactions.

Yeah, So I was a consultant too, at that time. And we were. I mean, not to get into the details too much, but there's kind of an R and D project within the company that I was working on that was starting to make less and less sense. And then when you came on and made so many changes and people left and really just instituting more structure and a more clear direction forward, at that time, we're thinking, go to market. We have to have customers and revenue someday. Companies get to this point. So the R and D aspect of what we're doing stopped making sense. And I was sensing that at that point too. I actually never fully wrapped my head around that myself. I think one of the helpful things at the time was maybe you noticed that. I noticed that. So when you go, hey, I'm not sure this makes sense, I go, yeah, it doesn't make any sense.

Yes. I remember we sat down at the attic. Right, the coffee shop.

Yep.

That's. Remember the same conversation. I was like, hey, I don't think your role makes sense anymore. And I was about to say, so your contract is terminated. But you were basically like, yeah, no, I know. It makes no sense at all. Right. So from there I hired you full time. I think you were my first full time hire after that.

Right.

As director of Field Ops.

I believe so. I mean, because that was. When did you take over?

October. Yeah.

So my day one was January 1st. So from there we had that conversation and I think I said, well, there's field operations. Like, what is it? There's no director of Field Ops. I think maybe you expressed like, this is a need we have, like, we're going to have to actually build out a team for this. And I said, well, how about I shift into that on interim basis and we'll see how it goes.

Yeah. And so we went to Texas, we went to Austin because we were recruiting a team there. And I agreed. I was like, all right, Will. And I knew Director of Field Ops was like the number one hire we needed to make at that point. Right. So you were doing an interim basis. And part of what convinced me to give you a shot at this was, you know, I was thinking about, like, nobody had done that job before. Nobody had managed a global team of 360 photographers before. I thought I needed somebody from the political world. I thought this, like, resembled almost political field canvassing at the time. But I hired you for a couple reasons. First, I knew that you shared my faith and because this was A very people centric role. I mean you have more direct reports than anybody else in the company. I wanted somebody who would love employees well.

Right.

And treat them well. Secondly was like this need for speed which has been a theme throughout your career and you had the core strength I was looking for you proven that you were competitive. I remember talking like one of our first conversations was talking about your experience as an athlete, poker in startups. So I want to talk about the story in a minute, but I actually wanted to talk about poker for a sec because that's actually kind of what convinced me that you might be right for the job was your competitive streak. So how did you. Poker was kind of the first job.

Right, right, right.

So how did you get started in poker?

How did I get started in poker? Well, it's in my blood, it's in my family, not poker per se. Gambling is definitely a common theme amongst my extended family, but really. So my parents are from the Midwest, they're from small town Indiana. We play this game called euchre. So I grew up playing Euchre. That's E U C H R E I believe that was, you know, fondest memories growing up is sitting around the table playing euchre from a very young age. My son's 5 now. I probably around then was already seeing that that was like after dinner what we would do. So cards was big in my family and then, you know, it wouldn't have been uncommon for my parents to kind of go to the casino or play poker or this or that. So I was sort of exposed. And then, I mean, I guess I remember playing for the first time with my dad when I was 12, 13, something like that of just teaching me with quarters, pennies, whatever. I very quickly, within a couple years, 14, 15, started playing relatively competitively. Now the timing there is that was beginning of poker craze, the emergence of online poker.

This one, poker is on espn.

Yeah, it's on ESPN all the time. So you're seeing it. I was very attracted to it. And then just my friends are playing, we're playing at school, we're playing in the bathroom and in Florida it's pretty accessible. There's dog tracks, there's horse tracks, there's all these things. But the laws on that side now, they're regulated too much. But you did well for the scale of that age, that level of income. Yeah, it's. You couldn't do really do better. So my first deposit online. It was really mostly online. That's where you can make money, especially young kids. If they've been playing online for a couple years, they have dramatically more experience than older folks who have, like, played in a home game, even on a weekly basis. Right? Because now you're starting to see data. Like, you play thousands of hands a day. And the young kids got it from, oh, this is math. And I'm learning how to process that and make quick decisions and whatnot instead of, you know, it's the Internet, right? All the secrets are gone. Like, the books are published. This is math. This is what we or the pros are doing. The young people take to that, right? Not the older folks who are like, that's not how you play. So when online hit, it was like a high school and college person's game to win.

You made enough money to like, buy a car, right?

Dumbest purchase I ever made was a brand new car in 2007 that I went down to the Kia dealership, of all things, I bought a Kia.

Yeah, was that.

What was the brand new. No, just a brand new car. Like, why do you need that? Yeah, why do I need that?

Right?

I mean, this is crazy. My dad was with me, by the way. Shout out said nothing. Chuck Barrett was there and said nothing about it. Like, this is cool.

You paid cash.

Yeah, paid it. I eventually totaled that. So hence it being a dumb decision.

All right, so you already have this competitive streak. You played Poker, you're a D1 college.

Athlete at very generous term.

Very generous term. You were on the team. You had a dream. Technically, technically, on the team. Football. Right, right.

USF.

I'm going to try to speed up the story just a little bit. So you're playing football or you're on the team at least, and you're interested in startups. Right. And really the rest of your career is kind of startups. And I think, like, there's an interesting bridge here from poker to startups. I can't remember if we talked about this, but, like, have we talked about Tony Shay?

How long do we have?

So for those of you that don't know Tony Hsieh, founder of Zappos Shoes that sold to Amazon for what, $300 million? Something like that. And in his book Delivering Happiness, he talks about how he learned poker and kind of the parallels between poker and startups. Do you know this, like, enough to, like, talk about it?

What I would tell people is you sort of have to outfold a lot of people. You have to outfold everybody, recognize the right opportunity and shift into fifth gear at that time and maximize as much as possible because Then when you double that chip count that compounds from there, you don't need to make all the right decisions. In fact the strength is when I can fold not even knowing it's the right decision. But the risk of me being wrong, even if there's a 20% risk like way outweighed everything else. So you have to be able to be okay with I'm not really sure what happened there. I'm going to move on and be confident. So if me that's a one to one player, I go, okay, we'll see. I've got three more hours with this person. He, she's eventually going to show their cards. I'm going to collect more data on them and then be able to categorize them and then make a more informed decision on oh, that's probably what happened back then and I was right or wrong.

So it's really like a lesson in patience. Right. And like discipline, patience and waiting for.

The right time to move.

Right. So how do you apply that to startups?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think mostly with startups for me that relates to internal decision making. So not necessarily and again not like on the sales and marketing side but am involved in long term strategy so it could be applied there. But for me on the day to day I think I use this when, when should we do this? When should we introduce this new policy to the team? Really where and when should we focus effort so you can know something's very, very important but you have certain resource constraints and so you're always having to prioritize. Right. And then you go, well actually this is very important. But for me it becomes gut intuition. I feel like we're still missing some information to make a good decision because when you go down that route, we're going to build this thing, we're going to create this program, I'm going to hire this person. There's a lot of time, resource investment. Right. So you want to as well as know like you can, you want to be close to 100%. So I go, let's go another quarter and see what happens.

Yeah.

Things tend to fade away.

Yeah.

It becomes very clear.

Yeah. I want to talk about leadership. I think you're a world class leader. You know that's not just my, I think it's fair for my audience to ask like how I judge the guests on this show as masters. It's like one of it is just I feel like I have good intuition for it. But second for you I have data. Right. So when we did upward feedback Surveys while I was CEO of Threshold. I mean you consistently got the highest ratings from your team and as a manager, but also your team was also always just like all in on the company's mission. I don't know, I just think you created a great culture within that very large block of people within the team. So I guess the question is how have you thought about shaping the culture within your team within this startup?

Yeah, this like culture question is very interesting to me lately because it's so common and I like the question. So common I don't know how to answer it for most people. Like, how do I create a culture and it becomes about things you do and events and stuff. And I'm like, so for me it's like the people I've chosen. So there's kind of the hiring side of. Right. Like the culture is made up of the people. So the makeup of people determine the culture. I mean, so I think that's been our number one priority even now. Short term contractors for 30 days, it's pretty much number one culture.

Even if they're only doing a 30.

Day contract, even if they're only doing 30. I mean, and that can be very, very tough to balance and sometimes you do have to deviate depending on the need at the time. But yes, and we've seen tremendous benefits from that. So I go, I never just care about getting the job done. So Even if it's 30 days, this person might help us learn something. They're going to be very engaged. I want them to feel like they're a full part of the team and they can contribute in all of the extra ways outside of just capturing content. So it's those kind of hiring, vetting decisions are very important. And I think it's just who we are. Everybody has a side of very serious all in on the mission and we genuinely like each other. It's, you know, these are the surprises when new people come in and they're just on a team meeting and they're.

Like, oh, these are my people.

So the great thing about that is in that we always have fun. That's not what's important here. The great thing about that is any issue I can pretty much address immediately and call them and speak nothing but the truth. This is like Paramount. This is so important. So I hope no things are left unsaid. But even if they do, it circulates. We end up talking about it. So a month ago we had a family meeting. This doesn't mean that we never have problems because I think we have a Great culture or I'm a half decent leader or whatever. At the time, the change was actually too fast enough for when I feel it. When I feel it, it means we're going too fast, because I like fast. And then we just had a full family meeting of everything on the table a couple hours. How do we make this sustainable for everybody? Because companies might say the customer is the most important, getting the content's the most important, hitting the deadline's the most important. That's cool. These seven direct reports and my 50 contractors are actually more important than that. And those other things are going to be okay. Like, I just promise. Yeah, yeah.

No, I think that's good advice. I think when you ask the culture question, like, how do you shape great culture? I do think most people expect answers about programs or pay benefits or perks, events and stuff like that. But, like, I think the wisdom here is like, no, it's like people decisions. Right? It's knowing who you are as the leader, as the hiring manager and the type of people and the values that you want those people to have on your team and kind of prioritize in that.

Yeah, I mean, I would say, how do you have a great relationship with somebody? Marriage, romantic relationship, friendship, A good relationship with teachers. I had a parent teacher conference yesterday at my son's school. And it's like we both feel heard by each other. Our input's valued. And so those relationships, sort of. They're added to. That's all that's happening here. Right. In this company, there's a bunch of relationships. And if the relationships are good and healthy and cultivated and there's truth and love and genuine care, then, like, you have a great culture. The pay and the perks, the benefits and that stuff is like, it's important, it's relevant, but it's not. The most.

Right.

The first part, just like, how healthy are the relationships in your company?

Yeah, those other things, like checking the boxes, like, they have to be there in order for those, like, deeper things to be.

Yeah, it's. It's like having a house, like, with. With water and electric and this and that and like food in the fridge. Yeah, yeah, okay.

But that's not what makes a family.

That doesn't make a family. It doesn't mean we have healthy relationships. It doesn't mean this house has great culture and hospitality and feels like home.

So we use the family term. I think you and I have talked about this, like, Netflix's value of we're not a family, we're a team. Where do you Decide on that.

I do like that. So the Netflix thing. Yeah. Is we're not a family, we're a team. They want to have sort of this sports performance oriented culture. We're not a family. Because a lot of times families devolve into just gross codependency. Right. Like, I'll do anything because we're blood, which means you can just take advantage of me and vice versa and all that stuff. So I think there's insight there. But at the same time, I grew up on teams. That's all I did. I didn't care about school. I cared about poker, football, baseball, all my best friends. I talked to them all this week. I'm 31 years old. Are we family? Like, there is a unique environment culture on the teams that create family, like bonds, if not stronger.

Yeah. I think the difference. I was actually talking to somebody about this the other day. Right. It's in a family, you're loyal to each other regardless. Right.

It's blind.

Yeah, it's blind. But like, loyalty for loyalty sake in business is really dumb. Like, really dumb. Right. Like, because you're sacrificing by being loyal to people regardless of their performance, you're sacrificing loyalty to the mission and the vision of the venture. Right. If I'm prioritizing the loyalty of an underperforming employee, I'm choosing to be loyal to that person instead of the mission that I feel like I've been entrusted with. Right.

And it's. This is like, easy to say. I have good results even from, like the last couple years, though I think of if you prioritize that loyalty, it's doing them and you and everybody disservice. But I mean, really, it's just. To me, it comes down to like, not speaking the truth. And this is. When somebody exists in that environment for so long, it's bad for everybody, but it's particularly bad for them.

All right. Can you, without using names, give a story of this? Because I think this is a hard concept for some people to grasp.

Well, here's what I'll. Maybe I'm most proud about this besides one person. So this means I've actually collected the data and have inventoried this for myself. Everybody I've fired or let go, which is different, but fired for very real reasons over the last few years. I have a. I would say very good relationship with still. And we communicate on somewhat of a regular basis. And those were very hard conversations. Except for maybe one person. So that's like 95% or something like that. And I think that's because the conversation was just about the truth of our relationship and the relationship with the company and, like, what's happening here. And typically then that starts to make sense. There's always a shock, there's. Change is hard, right?

Sure.

So they leave, but then they find themselves in a lane, like, more where they belong. There might be some struggle too, and it might take two or three more opportunities from there, but this is where I belong. Will, I see what you're saying? You know. Yeah, everybody's in a better spot.

How many people have you hired? Like, roughly, including contract, like going back to contractors? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, over a hundred. Over 100 if we include contractors.

Yeah. Okay. You've made a hundred or so more than 100 hiring decisions, right, in the last two and a half years? Almost three years.

Right.

What does that experience taught you about what to look for? What is most important to look for in hires? And try to make this, like, agnostic of the role. Don't think about creators. Like, try to apply the advice to anybody who's hiring. Anybody listening to this podcast, like, what are you looking for?

Oh, geez, I should have a much better answer for this, huh?

Well, I mean, you already talked about culture, right? I mean, is that it?

Culture fit? I mean, synonymous for me is like, do I like them after I go. That was an enjoyable conversation. That doesn't mean they're the fit, because I've had those. And. Oh, but they still weren't the fit because they didn't have the technical skills or I mean, even just availability or kind of goals where they want to go. I mean, for us, it's pretty easy to identify. It's culture fit for me. I want to walk away. I want them to ask me because they know they're applying for this 30 to 60 day capture content type contract. If they ask the question, are there long term opportunities here? What does full time look like? This is really interesting. I just want to be involved in the company because at the end of the day, I have to keep in mind we've changed so much. We've stabilized. I'm very proud of our processes now. But as this goes, a year from now, it's going to be very different.

It is, but the missions never changed. I mean, Threshold has been through three CEOs now, right. In four or five years. And the mission is largely stayed intact. And so I think there's a lot of wisdom here in looking for people who are fired up about the mission, because regardless of what else changes so.

I have to go. When this changes, how are they going to respond? Right. Which is why I get to. And I'm very biased toward generalists because I'm a generalist. I don't think I'm good at sales, I'm not technical. So what am I? I don't know. Like you tell me. So for this role, even though there's like a technical side of it and a creative side, so it's a lot of freelance photographers, so it's people with that sort of background. But I want a sense like oh, you're a generalist and can be plugged in over here. I mean you can solve this. Because every full time person on my team, every single one besides myself, captured content full time. So they were in the field full time and now they're managing the field to some degree which by the way is totally different. So they went from capturing content, creative focus to project management details, logistics. Even if it's a 30 day contract, I want to. Oh, I can see that happening.

I want to ask one more question about hiring. You and I have talked about this before but like there's this age old debate between hiring people or hiring positions. Right. So do you hire the best people, the best culture fit, or do you hire the person that has the experience? You know really the debate is do you hire great people, just look for really smart people and then plug them into whatever role or do you hire for the role you say I need a whatever sales associate and you gotta have XYZ experience. Like where do you side on that?

This is a good one. I think as I grow more I have a side but I'm open to both. Like it's not one or the other. So I think it is both. Because it really depends on the role. Right. If we need a very specific developer that codes in a specific language. Right.

Yeah.

You know, you should probably know how.

To code in that language. Right.

You have to go for that. In general though, I side with people.

So I think that's because the majority of your experience has been in a startup. I've been thinking about this.

Yeah.

A lot lately. So like in a startup and when it's a startup that where you're doing something that's truly never been done.

Right.

So something like Threshold. Right. There's no map, there's no proven path to like making this thing work. I actually do think like siding with people makes sense. You just want to find in the words of our core value at threshold, humble, scrappy and hungry people. Yes, that's a Quasi Hamilton reference for all you who know how much I love Hamilton. But like in a more proven business business or a more proven business model, in my opinion, it's much more predictable. You know what the roles are going to be that you need to hire for. It's like you're looking for more specific people. Would you agree with that? Oh yeah.

As we mature, I could see that changing.

Yeah.

I mean I'll say this so there's kind of, I've recognized the last year because again, it's been a lot of change and by the way, it's good growth change, meaning new problem, new pro. It's just a lot of process change. It's not even strategy change. Nothing core to the business necessarily changing its process and how we do things. So recently going back to the family meeting conversations with my people became someone in particular calling me and saying, I think this is hard for a lot of people, but I'm just having fun with it. And that to me, as I was like, it just hit me, I was like, oh, we're the same. Because I kind of like it, I'm having fun with it. So when I say hire people, it's like we sort of need that.

Yeah.

So maybe it's a specific skill. Maybe that is the role. Yeah, like they have fun with that. But that will obviously stabilize. Our process isn't going to change every month, forever. Right. In fact, I think we're getting very, very close to where that, that levels out.

So let's talk about your faith. Let's talk about how your faith impacts your work. So one of the things I knew about you fairly early on was you take, take Jesus's words pretty literally, especially as it relates to serving the poor. You've intentionally lived below your means so that you can minister to people in poor neighborhoods. How has your heart for the poor affected your ambitions professionally? Like is that part of what drives you to business? Is there an element of that there creating opportunities for people? Help me understand that.

Yeah, so a few things. So I got into I guess business, if you will. I would say I was always startup minded and wanted to do ventures. So like the first thing after poker, the first paycheck was money I fundraised through a nonprofit that we started. So I was a co founder of this men's recovery program that just leads to, if you get more and more serious about it, you move into the neighborhood. And then it just became the recovery program was our house. That's a short way to put it. So that became purely about creating opportunities for people. Now I happened to be in business school and I'd say at the time was coincidental, but I did not love it. I was mostly reading theology books and stuff and just getting by and using my financial aid to fund my life to go do mission ministry work. That's literally what I was doing. Going enough class to make that okay. But then through business, I stumbled upon concepts like microfinance. I was an econ major, creating small loans in developing countries and stuff like that. And I was like, oh, okay, this can be important for just creating opportunities for people. I saw that these two things can converge. And then at the Timothy Initiative, which is this, the non profit. Yeah, which is more or less a men's recovery program without getting too much into it, but still doing very well. I'm on the board of that. So that became about creating opportunities for the guys. And we had a concept of work therapy at the time too, which is just this kind of belief that for recovery purposes, whether it's drugs, alcohol, depression or anything, I need to feel better about myself. Work becomes very crucial. It just is for anybody. When kids growing up, it's a part of maturity. I have to work, I have to work hard at something. I have to feel good about myself. I have to accomplish something and work alongside people. So work therapy became very. One of our core tenants now the Timothy Initiative. So that just turned into a construction business ultimately. So I got thrown into the construction business because of that.

You guys are doing this recovery program for these guys. You start a construction business to give these guys jobs, Is that right?

Yeah, give them jobs. And it was the natural fit because that was at the time and still most of their background was in sort of the trades. They came from the construction industry or if something related. So that was the natural fit for us. So it became a few goals. Work therapy for new guys. This is like I'm just barely out of detox and I just need to be out there with people. And the discipleship element of that. So our leaders are on the job sites. I mean, they're there for eight hours and whatever. I don't know construction still. But the toilet explodes or whatever happens. Fix the problem together is essentially the Timothy Initiatives model of discipleship is do that together. That's where they're sharing life on the job site. Then they go home together too. So it's work therapy. And then it becomes more real job opportunities. They transition to hourly salary, blah blah, blah. And it becomes funding for the organization. So we don't have to continually. We don't have to fundraise as much because that can be a problem itself. So, yeah, I was sort of thrown into that business and then we were given screen printing equipment and thrown into the screen printing business. I built that. So, yeah. Does that answer the question?

Yeah, it does. So we've actually never talked about this in depth. And I listened to half of a podcast episode you were on and I didn't get the answer to this question in 45 minutes.

That was the idea.

The two of clubs.

Yep.

So Will, sitting here with a two of clubs card tattooed to his arm, what's the spiritual dimension to the two of clubs tattoo? And the follow on question of that is how does that that shape your leadership style?

So the two of clubs, again, it's obviously poker. It's sort of documenting that chapter in my life or just cards in general. So for me it's become a reminder. So again, going back my first, I mean, it really wasn't until almost late twenties where I was in full time for profit sort of business in a more venture like this threshold. So I was focused on kind of mission ministry work, if you will. But there are these business elements to it. And so I was very much like day to day, sort of with people that have a lot of needs. Right. And that really, really shaped me and shaped my worldview and ideas of leadership and how we relate to one another, how I manage people now, I guess. And so it wasn't until I got to this venture and have been much more detached from that life where I need a reminder. A reminder of what? Of the poor. So the two of clubs, this goes back to old cards. As cards developed, really, it's not until the France 1500s where they really like formalized and it's kind of the almost the card deck, we know it today. So that's when the suits are introduced and the face cards and all that. And it's reflective of the society, of the culture of the day. And so the suits represent kind of the class or caste system, if you will, of the time, which the clubs of the poor. Hearts are the people, spades are the military, diamonds are royalty. Yeah. So the two of clubs is the lowest card and it represents, it literally means like the peasants. So for me it became a reminder of that. But it's also poker and everything I've learned through that and how I kind of operate in the venture now it's about strategic risk taking. So combining those ideas, for me, the one sentence is it means strategic risk taking for and with the poor.

Yeah. So can you think of a time during your tenure as director of field ops, Right. Where you've had a situation with a member of your team? I mean, really, the two clubs is a reminder of humility.

Right.

It's a reminder of how Jesus has called us to serve the poor. You know, the members of your team, I wouldn't call them poor. Right. They're pretty good jobs. Has that tattoo reminded you of kind of that call to serve those people? Like, can you think of a specific example of how you felt called to serve those members of your team?

Right. Yeah, good point. You know, well, even I'll say, I'm not sure if this answers the question, but how I worked, like, with the poor and the people, I did that, like, very much as a part of a broader community at the time. How I. We did that has. Has changed as well. Right. Like, as I've grown and matured. And you realize, I mean, I think the special thing we ended up doing with people is just treated them like people, like, not pandering to everything, if you will. And so it just goes back to what we were talking about with interview and management of the truth. We're just telling the truth here. And so a lot of my experience at that time was with men in addiction, which is just the truth. I mean, it's a relatively harsh environment of you're messing up in this way, and there was a ton of kicking people out. This just kind of goes with, you know, that's the name of the game at the time. So I would say a lot of those lessons have translated. I mean, honestly, you know, people are people. The poor, in my experience, have a lot more needs and less opportunity, like, right then and there at the time. So there's a lot more guidance needed. So I don't know.

Yeah. So I'm hesitant to ask this question. I didn't give you.

I probably don't care at all.

I didn't give you advance warning of this major accountability time for me. I asked this to somebody on the podcast recently, and I liked. I really liked their humility and responses. But you've had a unique perspective on my leadership style.

Right.

Having worked for me for almost three years in this, like, super high pressure environment, I'm curious to hear your perspective on what would be different about Threshold. If I was not personally committed to following the teachings of Jesus Christ, would anything really be different?

I see your insane commitment to performance and standards and productivity and time management and organization as, like, intrinsically connected to your faith.

Right. How so?

Well, I think you have this conviction about excellence and that we're probably not going to talk about that, but that especially maybe people listening can relate in the ministry, church, mission, nonprofit world can be tough. That has always been tough for someone like me who kind of aspires as well. I was first a competitor. Like we want to win the game and you have to keep getting better. You have to train every day. You have to keep getting better and better and better. And so for me that was so attractive about Threshold was that you were there gonna set the standard. Some of my life I was like noticing these things, but you become what the complainer you become, you know, kind of holding an impossible standard. But when you like instituted that it was. I just never felt kind of more free to be myself. So for me it was incredibly valuable. But yeah, I think you're so committed to excellence that's I think rooted in your faith. And as a result of that there's, you know, how you operate, how you manage your time, how you hold people accountable. And then if you're the CEO, the number one person, the fact of the matter is that sets the tone of everything.

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I would certainly agree. I think other people can have high standards of excellence, certainly with that following Jesus Christ. But like that is the motivation.

Right.

I believe we worship the exceptional God, a perfect God. I think he's called us to glorify him and reveal his character. And we do that through the ministry of excellence, through creating great products and great companies. And also we've given a finite time on this earth to like live out the mission and the work that we believe that God has created us to do. Right. And I take that very, very seriously. So that's an interesting response. Alright, so three questions I like to ask every guest before we wrap up. So I'm curious, I actually don't know the answer to this for you because I don't think you've ever given me a book. What books do you give out the most?

I will recommend. So there's a couple books that are very, very important to me. I don't give them out a lot because they're rare and they're dense and people probably aren't going to read them. But I'm still going to recommend because this might change your life. So at least one of them is in my bag right now. So there are two books. One is A Failure of Nerve by Edwin Friedman, is very important to me. So this is a book about leadership. Right. And he's a clinical psychologist, He's a Counselor. He's a practicing family counselor. Right. Who sort of develops his idea of leadership within that environment. Long story short, he recognizes if I have this very dysfunctional family, I recognize the person with the most leadership ability, which might be the mom, dad, kid, I don't know. But, oh, I just need to pull them aside. I'm just gonna counsel them and that will change everything. That will change the whole culture. Right. And so when he says a failure of nerve, he uses that interchangeably. In the book With Backbone, he's like, I actually just need to instill strength in them because they know what truth, kindness is. They're the reasonable, kind person here. They're not just all over the place with emotion and reactive. They're going to be able to manage this. I just need to give them confidence. Right. So then he translates that to corporations and other organizations and government. He ends up consulting for all these big groups. So, old book, Edwin A Failure of Nerve. The other one is the Way of Suffering by Jerome Miller, who's a sort of unknown theologian, philosopher, kind of. But he talks about suffering being like the golden moments of your life to really discover the truth of yourself and God. That's where you meet God in a lot of ways. So at the time, for me, that was very important because I felt like I was in that season.

That's interesting. What one person would you most like to hear talk about this intersection of faith, work, vocation, Maybe on this podcast, maybe not. Who would you like to hear talk about that stuff?

Oh, I mean, I'm interested in like the unknown. So I don't know a person, but by the unknowns, I mean, I'm always incredibly impressed by people just in the community, in my community, doing seemingly basic work, it's not threshold360 necessarily fun, exciting scale, woo woo. But doing very simple work with relentless commitment. It might not even be business, like for profit business, whatever we want to call it. But I'm thinking of like, I did an internship one summer in college with this Franciscan community and lived with these Franciscan priests, right. For a summer. And a couple of them had been doing the same thing every day for 40 years now. That's not my style. I don't know if I'd be able to do that. But it doesn't make sense. They were operating on another level. So someone along those lines I think would be really interesting.

Yeah, I really want that to be a big theme of this show.

Right.

So I want to have a lot of people who are not in super high profile roles. In fact, I Got an interview later on with a middle school Spanish teacher whose story I told in Master of One. And she's exceptionally good at her craft. Nobody knows her, can't find her on Instagram, but she loves Jesus and she loves her work and is committed to it. So, no, I think those stories are really interesting. I say a lot on here. You don't have to be world famous to be world class.

Right.

I think we equate those things a lot of times, and that's just not true. All right, last question. What one piece of advice would you give to somebody who, like you, is pursuing mastery of the art of leadership?

If that's really their pursuit? It's not just like, happenstance. I want to make a bunch of money or start a venture or do this, and leadership happens to be a requirement. But you're pursuing the mastery of leadership, I would say lead in a very difficult environment. That's almost weird to say you're going to pick and choose like that. But what I'm very thankful for is my first few years in college, just out of college as a young person, for the first three or four years, my first venture, paycheck, fundraising was an extremely difficult environment. The leadership, the sacrifice you would make is, well, there's a new person and we can move another bed in my room and we can split this room and just break all boundaries. And it's unrecommended in a lot of ways, but everything was so incredibly, like, difficult about it. And you saw, like, all aspects of life because we're serving, like, the whole person. We're not managing them for a few hours a day. We're not having one, one on one a week. We're eating almost every meal together. So there's just a lot to learn from those, like, intense experiences that could be achieved in a number of ways.

But choosing the difficult path, Right, that's where you're going to learn the most.

Yeah. Being faced with really, really hard decisions on a daily basis. Because now, I mean, I'm not really faced with a decision where that, I think, is that big of a deal, to be honest. Might be, like, over exaggerating a bit, but the world's not crumbling. We're having fun.

Right. So, Will, I just want to thank you. I mean, as a brother in Christ, but also as the chairman of the board, Threshold. Thank you for administering the Ministry of Excellence. Thank you for working so hard. You're one of the hardest workers on the team, working hard to serve our customers and our employees and our investors. Well, thank you for the way you love people and the poor in particular. Your work as a leader of people is ministry. Even though it might not be at the Timothy Initiative, I think it's incredibly important and I'm just grateful that you do it it extraordinarily well. Hey, if you want to work with Will, he's always hiring, right?

Yeah, always, always hiring.

So go to threshold360.com you can learn more about the venture and find his contact information as well. Will, thanks for hanging out.

Thank you.

Thanks again to my friend Will Barrett for joining me. I hope you guys were able to soak up a lot of his wisdom on leadership on hiring there. Hey, if you you are enjoying the podcast, make sure you subscribe so you never miss a conversation in the future with another masterful leader or entrepreneur, author, teacher.

Yeah, make sure you subscribe.

If you're already subscribed, do me a huge favor. Can you please take 10 seconds and go review this podcast on Apple, on Spotify, wherever you review podcasts to make sure that we can get this content content into the ears of more listeners. If you have no idea how to do either of those things, go to jordanraynor.com podcast and we've made it really easy for you to find those links now. Hey, before you go, I want to share another conversation I recently had with an author of a book I recently added to my reading list. The authors are Patrick Gray and Justin Skisuk, and they wrote this interesting book called Imprints.

And basically the premise is that, you.

Know, changing the world, we talk a lot about changing the world, especially millennials like myself. Changing the world doesn't require huge audiences, huge platforms. Having your own podcast, what we do day in, day out, at work, at our offices, at home, has great, eternal significance. So this book, I've started skimming the book. It's been a great and great encouragement and challenge to me. I think it would be a great encouragement to you. So I recently sat down with Patrick and Justin, the authors, to just ask.

Them a few questions about the book.

To help you make a decision as to whether or not this is something you would want to read. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Patrick and Justin.

Patrick and Justin, thanks so much for joining me. Hey, I love the concept of this book, Imprints. It's why I have been putting it in front of my audience of Christian professionals. So, Patrick, why don't you start and just tell us a little bit about what is this book? What's this book all about?

Yeah, you know When Justin and I, we travel all over and you speaking to different audiences and we get asked a lot of questions about kind of focused on how do I make a difference in the world? And we point people back to conversations we have with like CEOs of companies what kind of inspired them to make a difference in the world, Maybe like a non profit that's say put in freshwater wells in Africa. And every time we talk with someone who's affecting change on large scale, they point back to someone who made an influence impact upon them when they were younger, childhood, teenage years. Someone who just modeled grace, compassion and mercy in the everyday. And so when people ask us, how do I as an individual make a difference, what can I do that's actually going to actually matter? We say, man, there's a lot you can do. And so this got our wheels turning with, okay, what can we do to inspire people to have a different perspective in life, to look at their life as an opportunity to make profound change in every interaction they have. And so we kind of started with the idea that every human interaction is the opportunity for something sacred to occur. As long as we have the mentality that it can happen, that we can be a vessel for God to pour through. And we got to be intentional with that. So we started looking at just stories of individuals that have kind of shaped who we are and then friends that we've met along the way and stories that have shaped who they are. And so the whole book is not about compassion on the large scale. It's okay, what can we do in the simple, intimate, everyday moments with our neighbor, with a server at a restaurant, with someone we meet on the street? How can we profoundly shape the trajectory of their life just by simple acts of compassion, grace and love?

I love that so much. We talk a lot on this podcast about how we can do that through our work. Right? I mean, you know, loving neighbor as self is a good and God honoring thing. When we just serve customers well, show compassion to employees, care about the lives of those around us and serve them well, those are sacred things, right? That even if it's in a quote unquote secular workplace, we are being the hands and feet of Jesus as we go and do those things. So Justin, I'm really curious to hear from you on this. Who is this book? I mean, it's easy to say every single believer on the face of the planet. Is that who the audience is or is it more nuanced than that?

That's a very good question because as an author you want to say yeah, it's for everybody, of course, right? Everybody in the whole world should buy a copy. You know what? I would probably say the best answer I can give for that question is if somebody is yearning to show either if they're a Christ follower and say, you know what, how can I be reminded of how to do that in the day to day, then this book is for them. If it's for even a non believer, somebody that's like, hey man, I don't believe in this Jesus dude or whatever, I don't subscribe to that. You just want to be able to be compassionate to people you meet every day and learn how to listen. Patrick and I are firm believers. Sometimes the best way to listen is to shut up.

Kind of the only way to get up.

But some people have a hard time with that. So this book is a really great reminder for those, those individuals who might have over the course of their lives or recently, or who knows what that might be for them is to be reminded, say, yeah, you know what, okay, let's get back to the basics. Let's get back to being just a good human in this world.

Yeah, I love that. Wherever you are, right? Wherever. If you're a stay at home dad, if you are working in a Fortune 500 company or starting your own business, be the feet, hands, the feet of Jesus wherever you are. I love that. So Patrick, I'll ask this last question of you. So our audience, the people listening to the call to mastery, they love Jesus, but they also really love their work. And they're thinking about how to integrate those two things really deeply and they're ambitious for their work. Right. These are high achieving Christians. How is this book going to serve that specific audience?

Yeah, you know, I'm a firm believer that there's not a work life and there's not a home life, there's just life. Right? There should be no delineation of who we are in the workspace versus who we are as a father, as a husband, as a partner and whatever it might be, or a parent. And what I mean by that is the same dynamics that are at play in any relationship we have. And business is about relationship, period. If you don't have good relationships, your business is going to fail. It won't last. We work with a lot of different companies where the leaders, they understand, man. My ability to cultivate healthy, strong bonds with my customers, with my employees, with my peers or my superiors, even say a board, that's key to my success. And if we strip all the buzz about relationship stuff out there and get back to those basic things like Justin mentioned. Dig into scripture and what does Jesus call us to? What kind of life does that look like? That's what this book is about. It's not a self help book. It's not a step by step kind of thing. It's like let's look at how I can in simple ways in every single interaction, whether it's in a boardroom or in the hallways of my business or it's on my way home and I meet someone on the street. How can I profoundly open someone's eyes to a new perspective of what it means to live and love? What?

Well, I love that. So one, one follow up question. So Yalls story, the story of Patrick and Justin started with this big grand act of love, right? Can you very briefly, Justin, maybe you briefly tell that story. Take about a minute to tell that story. And then Patrick, why don't you follow on to that and talk about how you guys serve each other in this friendship and this partnership in smaller ways.

Sure, yeah. So I mean in a nutshell though, for those of who are listening, Patrick and I have known each other literally our whole lives. We were born just over 36 hours apart. Same hospital. Hospital, same town. Moms knew each other growing up, parents went to college together and we have a long family history. So there hasn't been a time in our lives where Patrick and I haven't known each other. You know, we've lived life together growing up as kids. And those who may not know my personal journey, I'll give a quick snapshot. When I was just. When I was 16, I was involved in a car accident. Ended up triggering a progressive neuromuscular disease in my body. So it's very, very rare disease that I have. It's almost identical to als. So I live life in a wheelchair every day. So I can't feed myself, I can't get my clothes on, can't go to the bathroom by myself. Many aspects of my life I'm dependent upon others. Patrick has stepped into that role of not only being, he's not only my best friend, but he's also stepped into caregiver. He's also stepped into showing me what it means to love and live well. And then, you know, we do crazy stuff. A few years ago we successfully completed the Camino de Santiago. It's a 500 mile pilgrimage across northern Spain. While Patrick pushed me in a wheelchair. There's a award winning movie called I'll push you as well as our book, our first book memoir called I'll push you. So we've had like crazy interactions not only with one another, but with many people that have stepped into our journey along.

So those are the big things, right? The 500 mile journey's got to top that list. Patrick, from your perspective, maybe talk about some of the small things in Yalls relationship where you're serving others, serving each other really well.

Well, well. You know, you mentioned earlier hands and feet, right? Like wherever we are in life, that's what we're called to be as hands and feet. You know, and I, through this whole evolution of, I would say my faith over the past, you know, six, seven years is just. Life has been very different from what I expected it to be. My eyes have been open to different things, especially in scripture and just the way Jesus lived and he chose relationship over religion every single time. And that's a. It's an easy trap to fall into choosing religion over relationship because religion's easy. Easy. It's a checkbox. It's defined where stepping into the amazing wonder and it's magic as we can't explain it of God. It's so beyond our understanding. Yet he gives us, you know what in the everyday, Love your neighbor as yourself. That is how you love me. In Matthew 22, he makes it so clear that he loved the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul. And the second commandment is like it, love your neighbor as yourself. And to take that to heart in the little things, whether it's Justin and I or as people we meet, hands and feet doesn't always look like hands and feet. I get to be Justin's hands and feet every day. And it's awesome. But he gets to do the same thing for me in different ways. As he encourages me, he opens my mind to new perspectives in life. And so it doesn't have to be that physical, tangible piece. It is. Are you pressing into relationships in a way where you are inviting someone to like their story to crash into yours and your story to crash into theirs and so that you can be the church together and it can be a big thing like going through Spain. And it can be something as simple as asking a, serving their name, looking them in the eye and saying, hey, I really appreciate the help you give me today. How's your day? That can change everything for somebody. And there's so many things we can do in between the big and the small. But it's having that mindset that I'm going to be hands and feet in some way, shape or form every chance I get. At least I'm going to try to, man.

I love that. Guys, thank you so much for writing this book. I've started skimming it. I'm really enjoying the lessons in it. And thank you for sharing a little bit about the book with our audience. I appreciate it. Thanks, Jordan.

Appreciate it, man.

Thanks, Jordan.

Thanks again to Patrick and Justin for sharing a little bit about imprints. The book is out now.

If you want to find it, find.

It on Amazon, Barnes and Noble Books a million wherever books are sold.

Hey, that's it for today's episode.

Again, if you're enjoying the podcast, please be sure to subscribe and review the the show. Thank you so much for listening to the Call to Mastery. I'll see you guys next time.