William Winchester (COO of Berg Mill Supply)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes, but first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back.

Guarantee on this book.

I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why?

Two reasons.

One, this is a different book for me, right? I know this is a very different biography is what is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right?

So that's the first reason this is.

A risk and I'm gonna de risk.

This book for you.

Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended.

End quote. But here's the thing.

In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5 mereChristians. Calm and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.

I'm Jordan Raynor.

How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as Home health aides, tailors, and professional fundraisers. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to William Winchester. He's the COO of a business in the waste and recycling industry who recently joined me to talk about his biblically informed vision of zero waste on the renewed earth. We talked about the new question that I would encourage anyone to ask when making vocational decisions. And we also talked about why William chose to work as an employee even when he had a chance to own his own business.

I love this conversation.

I think you will, too.

Please enjoy this conversation with William Winchester. William Winchester, my friend, longtime listener, first time caller, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

Oh, man, it's a joy to have you here. You've been a part of my communities in the past. I know you've heard a lot of my stuff. You've listened the show a lot. So I always love asking listeners of the Mirror Christians podcast when they come on, what is the favorite episodes that you would encourage our listeners to go back into the library and listen to?

The first one that comes to mind for those who've been listening all the time goes way back to the first season to. I don't know if I'll say his name right. Horst Schultz.

Yeah.

Who's the co founder of the Ritz Carlton Hotel Company. That was a great episode. And he has this line in there. He talks about opening the hotel in, I believe it was Jamaica or somewhere in the Caribbean.

Yeah, yeah.

And he told the people, you are ladies and gentlemen, serving ladies and gentlemen. And how that inspired the people to come to work in their best clothes they owned and change the way they felt about their service. And that was really inspiring to me and something I identified with in my business. There can be a lot of looking down on people doing some not fun jobs, but it's all valuable work and the people are all valuable. And so he really inspired me in that and identified with that.

I love that episode so much. And that's such a frequent answer to this question that we've actually asked Horse to come hang out with the Mere Christians community in a few months. So a lot of our listeners know that once a quarter we have a book club in the Mere Christians community where we read a book together to help us do our most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. And then we bring in the author to do a Q and A with us. And I've selected Horst's Excellence Wins Terrific book to go through with the community. He's going to be zooming with us in December, so don't miss that. All right, William, what is Berg Mill Supply? What is this business that you are COO of? What do you guys do?

So at a 30,000 foot view, we are helping maintain the global supply chain for the reuse of earthly resources. So there is waste that's being constantly generated and how do we steward that? How do we look at that? And when you take it down to say, 10,000 foot view. So we're working with the generators of waste in various different industries and looking to create a solution, the pathway to get those products into the hands of the people, the manufacturing that can use it to make new products. And so when you take it down to the ground level, we've got to figure out how people can get their recyclable waste segregated properly into a grade that's reusable, get it packaged, figure out how we're going to get it shipped, get it sold, you know, make that contact, take an order with a company that can reuse it, get it to them, and then return that revenue to the generator for the value of that material.

Okay, this is fascinating to me. I'm totally ignorant about your industry. And my daughters were asking me this the other day, like, dad, why do we recycle? What happens after recycle? Talk to my 4, almost 5 year old for a minute, William. What happens after she puts her water bottle in the recycling bin in our house and we take it to the street?

Yeah. So when people say they do recycling, it's like, where does that act of recycling actually occur?

Because nobody trusts that anyone's going to sort it.

Right, right, right. So. And you have amazing technology where these days we're applying so much. It's a lot of physics and science that goes to the sorting of the materials. But that water bottle that goes into that bin with all the other items, you rec, assuming you have the same kind of system as most, it goes into a series of machines and different sorting techniques until all those water bottles are all segregated with a purity that's over 95% pure water bottles. And it's packaged, meaning generally it's baled, it's compressed in a big hydraulic baler to make these packages that weigh say 1,000 pounds of just water bottles. And then it's going to go to a recycler that's going to bust those bales up, they're going to sort them, make sure the purity is there. They're going to grind, wash, get the Labels away, get the caps away from the bottle and then they will create either a flake or a pellet. That is pet, that's the resin that water bottles are made out of. And then that can go back into a new water bottle or PET goes into the making of polyester. So it could go into a fabric, it could go into a lot of different things.

That's fascinating.

And generally speaking, when you recycle something, whether it be paper or metal or plastic, you're using less resources, less virgin resources, using less energy, and you're able to make a reusable product again.

That's very cool. Hey, you've mentioned to me before that before reading my books and in particular the Sacredness of Secular Work, you understood that your work had instrumental value, but not what I call intrinsic value.

Can you tell us more about that?

Until I read the Sacredness of Secular Work, I did not see my work as an act of creation with authority from God and that having that work will continue in the renewed earth using the skills and the knowledge that I've learned now. You know, I was one of those people that didn't really think a lot about what heaven would be like. And you've had people like nt ride on air, man, I really, that was a great episode to really changing the trajectory for me and seeing that my work. I'm not a creative person. I don't do art and whatever, but my work is creative. I'm building solutions. I'm thinking of new things and about organizing things and, and that's all stuff that I now see is going to continue in the renewed earth.

Hey, I've heard a lot of Christians. I actually heard this a couple of weeks ago and it made me so mad. I've heard Christians like joke about recycling, like scoff at your entire industry, you know, drop a water bottle in the trash can and say, you know, just helping God burn up the earth a little bit faster. And you and I would strongly push back against this. I know I would. I think you would.

And you told me in our pre interview, quote, we're doing something good for.

The kingdom here when we are recycling materials and reusing them. End quote.

So we talked about the first commission in Genesis 1, and when we're talking about the kingdom, of course we're ultimately.

Talking about the consummated kingdom here on Earth.

So say more about what you mean. How is the work you are doing.

Today recycling materials and reusing them Kingdom work in your eyes?

Yeah. And I want to preface that by saying I didn't get into this field with this in mind, I fell into this field. I think it was God wanted me to be here in this place. And so then coming to see what's going on out of this. So this has evolved over time. But when we make use of the waste instead of just putting it in the ground, right then it's done. And I don't feel bad about there being landfills, but if we can take those resources and view all that waste as a resource that God has given us, then why do I want to waste anything that our heavenly Father has given me? And I've not spoken this anywhere. So here's the release. I think that we have this term in our industry called zero waste. Everybody wants to push for zero waste. Well, I think in the renewed Earth that we will be at zero waste. Here's my theology. Is that in any kind of manufacturing, if there's work going on, any kind of creation going on, there's always byproduct. If you're going to carve a sculpture, you're going to chip away, there's going to be pieces of marble on the ground. Right. If you're going to make a leather coat, you're going to have pieces you cut out. There's always waste going on. So waste itself is not bad. It's a byproduct of that. But in a perfect world, I would think that we would be able to reuse those resources. And we're going to be here forever, so we're not going to keep putting stuff in holes. And, you know, eventually you would really run out of holes. You know, we're not short on landfill space right now. But I mean, if you think about forever, that's different. I think we're going to be at zero waste. So, hey, what can I learn now that is then going to carry forward that I'm going to be ready to move into that, in. In the new potential for recycling in the new Earth.

I love this so much. I've never thought about that idea of zero waste on the new Earth.

But God doesn't waste anything, right?

He doesn't waste circumstances. He doesn't waste this earth. He's never said that this earth is going to burn up in the end. Contrary to some very, very old translations of one particular ve that we've got better translations now of with newer manuscripts of Scripture.

How do you think that will shape.

The work that we do on there? What will be different about our creative output? Because there will be zero waste on the new Earth.

Yeah, you know, there's a big delta right now between what is theoretically recyclable and what is practically recyclable. And there are a lot of items in your household that may be stamped with the recycling arrows on the bottom, but you know, you can't put them in your recycling bin. They're not one of the accepted list. Because, yes, you could theoretically recycle this item. But how do we do that practically? We're not able to do that now and not say it won't be in the future. But you have to have certain ability of markets that will reuse it. You have to have minimum threshold stuff. But I think on the new Earth, the economy is going to be so different and I don't think we're going to be bound by the same constraints. So I feel like we're going to be able to get those things to the place they need to be. And the other thing is, you think of something like a chip bag, not a recyclable. It's metalized, it's plastic, you know, several layers. It's not recyclable. But I'm thinking on the new Earth, hey, are we going to have that need to preserve food that way and to create things that can't be recycled? I don't think so. I just, I mean it's, you can blow your own mind going here, but I think it's all going to be different. And I think that the waste that we generate will be able to be reused and we won't need to generate non recyclable waste.

That's really good. It's really good. It reminds me of this quote of Randy Alcorn's in his great book Heaven. He says, quote, God is the ultimate salvage artist, end quote. Right. Doesn't waste things. So it's super fun to imagine what that's going to mean for our eternal vocation of reigning with King Jesus on the new Earth. But let's get back to today. Right? So why does your work right now matter in light of that eternal future?

Like, is it simply a means of.

Scratching off a glimpse of that eternal future?

Like, how do you see the intrinsic.

Value of your work right now, William?

Well, I do believe that we as an industry, me as a person, are working towards that future, learning a lot of things. And I think those lessons, you know, we want to build on our knowledge and get better at what we're doing. And therefore I feel like that has value again, that'll that will carry forward. And the other lessons are about how we continue to, how I glorify God in the way that I do those things, the way that I apply them, and the way that it reflects God's amazing salvation and glory in those day to day things. And looking at the details and I assume that in every business there's a lot of shortcuts that can be taken and things that people do that are, you know, questionable. And certainly in our industry there is. When you're dealing with quality control, it's. Yeah, it can be subjective. It can be, you know, there can be a lot of things that aren't quite right but aren't. And so for me to have standards and I work for a company that has standards and to say that we want to be in a position of integrity and that that will reflect the kingdom and grow the kingdom.

Yeah.

In me.

Yeah, it's really good.

Yeah.

We've been talking about how what you do matters to God vocationally. But I love where you're going. Talking about, okay, how's my face shape, how I'm doing this job professionally? How do I glorify God? Not in what I make and what my business does, but in how I do the work.

Work.

And I think by God's common grace. I say this a lot in this podcast, but there's going to be a lot of similarities in how you and a non Christian would run this particular business.

Right, but I am interested in what's.

Different, what's set apart, what's distinct.

Right.

So you mentioned integrity and quality assurance, whatever.

But can you describe a specific story, a past experience at work, a decision you made, an action you took, whatever.

That could only fully be explained by.

Your commitment to the ways of Jesus that clearly glorified God. Even if people couldn't assign that language to your actions.

Not one specific instant, but a series of instances that I've had is when clients share with me their personal events going on in their life. And I've had the opportunity to pray with people and be entrusted with information that I, as you know, an outside vendor consultant, whatever, would not normally be trusted with what's going on with them. And it's because of the love of Christ that I can have those relationships. And it gets a little, I feel like I have to really tread carefully with that. And when they, when I get trusted with information, you have to separate out, okay, there's the business I'm doing with this person and then there's this person that has value, that I have a relationship with. And so, yeah, but if I can speak into their lives and encourage them and pray with them or just be a sounding board to them, then that's wonderful. And that's something that other people wouldn't do and I don't. Again, I have to separate out the business. Say I'm not doing this expecting I'm going to get more business or that it's part of my strategy. It's part of my strategy as a child of God, to be salt and light.

So good. It's so good. I am not like you. People do not come to me with their personal issues. One of my best friends, she's been on the podcast a couple of times. Christy Adams. She and her husband are Karenized. Some of Karen I's best friends. People are constantly coming to her at work. She's a middle school teacher. Right. In the public school system. People are constantly coming to her with challenges. I'm curious for you.

What do you think that you do differently? How do you live your life? How do you do your work in.

A way that you think makes you an inviting presence for those people to be transparent and vulnerable about some of the hardest things in their lives?

For my staff, the people that work with me, I've got this. Post it on my computer. That's a phrase that I got from Craig Groeschel, amazing leader, trainer. Right. And it says, I notice you matter. And he talked about this on a podcast and it really stuck with me. And just to remember that everybody's got a part to play in our organization and I need to notice that role and that person. And I try to end my conversations with, is there anything I can do for you? And I really like having video calls now because then you can sort of look people in the eye a little more and take their temperature and see how they're doing and be again, sensitive to the fact that there's work to be done. But is that person in a good spot there that they can do that? And then with dealing with clients, too, is compared to my wife, I feel like adult. Like I don't pick up on cues very much. But obviously I must pick up on enough that I'm able to interact with people and be willing to set aside what is going on at that moment. We can always pick up and talk about the business, but if there's that moment, those are divine appointments to me that I should be stopping and interacting with that person. A lot of times it's a point of frustration, something or, you know, anger or sadness or whatever, then how can I not stop and do something at that point? Yeah.

And it probably requires Working at a pace that's unhurried enough to notice that, number one. Right? To notice. To have the emotional intelligence to notice what's going on in the lives of the people that we're working with and what they're not saying, but what's really going on on the surface.

And then being unhurried enough to take.

The time and say, hey, let's pause there and let's talk about that anxiousness, that fear that whatever it is, Right?

Yeah, man. I'm hoping that there'll be a lot of people that I interact with that hear this podcast, and I hope that that's their experience. I know I'm not that way 100% of the time, but I sure hope that people can say, yeah, I've experienced William in that way, and I have. On the Clifton Strength Finders, responsibility is one of my top ones. And I feel responsibility to the people in my sphere. Once you come into my sphere, like, I feel like again that God has put you in this place. And so I want to make sure that I'm caring for you, that you're valued in that way. And, yeah, that's my goal.

Yeah, it's really good. It reminds me of something you said in our pre interview that I loved. You said, leadership is not being in charge, but caring for those in your charge. If your team were here right now and I read that, they'd be like, oh, yeah, man. Like, William shows us that he cares for us in X, Y and Z ways. What are some of those ways?

Yeah. And that is a quote from Simon Sinek.

Oh, is it?

I love that. Yeah. And I heard it some time ago, and it just really resonated that of a servant leader. That idea of servant leadership is really important to me, and I see that as the example that Christ gave us. Oh, no. So when I take time to talk to people about that, about what's going on with them, I feel like that I'm doing that. And caring for them also looks like giving people a voice. One of our we call them Burg isms for our founder, Roger Berg thing, he used to say things that were part of our culture. But one of those things is that the person closest to the problem often has the solution. And if I'm top down, I'm telling you the way that it should be and what I think it should be. But if I care about you, I want your opinion. And it's amazing to me how being a good disciple of Christ makes me a good businessman. Right. It's good business to Care about your people and to give them voice and give them. If I care for them, I want to let them grow and let them take responsibility for things and take pride in their work. Those are all ways of caring for them. And then I am as a manager, I've got to be that buffer. I've always felt that way too. Managing upwards, we're, you know, a small company. There's not. Not as much upwards. But I need to represent what is best for them to my boss.

Yeah, it's really good. That's really good.

There's a question I've been asking people.

Lately that I'm interested to get your take on. What are some challenges that you're currently wrestling with in the work that a non Christian might not have to wrestle with.

I already talked about that temptation in our industry to cut corners, especially on quality and not whether it's doing something underhanded or just not due diligence. There's that temptation. So we very care very much about our brand is about quality and integrity. So as again, as a company, it aligns very well with what I believe. And so we want to make sure we're doing those things, looking at the material, looking deeper into the operations, about what's going on. So it's not just okay on the surface, it's okay all the way through. And people can trust that. And I also alluded to the fact that there's a lot of different types of people in our industry. And the waste industry has typically been a place where immigrants go to because it's work that nobody else wants to do that's available. And so we get all sorts of different cultures and nationalities and stuff being a place to work. But. And I see a lot of people that will look down on those folks. And so as a believer, I don't look down on those folks. I see them as having value because they're made by our father as well. And they're working hard. They're working harder physically than I am. And I appreciate that very much. And I'm talking to you from Yuma. We have a plant here in Yuma and it's going to be, you know, 110 or something today. And our folks are working out in that heat. These are tough people that I respect a lot. So why would I want to look down on that? But again, many people don't. And the last thing that I was thinking about in terms of if I wasn't a Christian is I would be a complete workaholic. I walk right up to that line if you will. I struggle with it because I want to give all of me for the work of the Lord. I want to honor my boss, and for business, I want to work hard. But there's that flip side to that, and I probably wouldn't have any boundaries, and I wouldn't be giving time and talents to church and nonprofit work that I do, that I value, that I. That I carve time out for. And here's something really significant that my wife and I decided very early on, given my propensity here, was that we were not going to own a business. We made a decision that it would not be good for us. If I had to be ultimately in charge, I would work diligently for somebody else. But it takes a whole layer of stress and workaholism off the table.

Wow. Okay. This is fascinating. I want to go deeper to this. Did you have an opportunity to start your own business or to own a business that you intentionally said no to because of that?

Yeah. Yeah. We've had a few opportunities, and just the idea of, hey, you're. You know, people say, why haven't you started your own business? Like, it was expected, like I should, or I could even, you know. But for us to say, hey, I'm struggling enough with not having time for. For family and for caring for people and being too tired, and so let's not go down that path.

Yeah, that's a big decision. Right. The world would look at that and say, that makes no sense from a certainly financial standpoint. How did you discern that? Was that discerned through a small group in your church? Was it discerned just. And you and your wife praying through that decision? That's a pretty significant one.

Yeah. I think it just came. It wasn't like there was a specific opportunity and we were praying with our small group about it. It was more of just us knowing ourselves and what God was calling us to and having this sense of that work is not everything and the income is not everything. It's how God is providing, and it has intrinsic value. But, you know, family is important and church is important and these other things and just saying, you know, we don't need to chase all that.

Yeah. It's just being cognizant of your idols and making vocational decisions, too.

That's a much better way of saying.

Void those idols as much as possible. Yeah. I heard one of my mentors likes to ask people when they're making vocational decisions, which path will make you the most like Christ?

And I like that question. Although I think it's hard to answer.

Because I think God can use any job to make you more like Christ. He's using all things for our good, which is our sanctification. See Romans 8, 28, 29. But I like that question, William, and kind of how you were thinking through that of like, okay, we always ask, what are our passions? What are our gifts? And I've encouraged readers to ask those questions. But what are my idols? Right.

Yeah.

And how do I make vocational decisions based on that? That's a really powerful question.

Yeah. Your identity. Right. If your whole identity is wrapped up in that work and what happens when that goes away and if you're only just pursuing that, we know it's going to end at some point, where are you going to be? Who are you going to be? I want to be known as a, you know, valuable employee, but I don't want that to be the whole life, the whole sum of me.

That's really good. Hey, William, we've already talked a lot about the new Earth, but I've started asking everyone who shows up to the podcast, what job would you love for God to give you to do on the new Earth? And feel free to pick multiple, because, listen, we got billions of years here. Okay.

Well, you recently had on Jen Wilkins on the podcast, and she talked about bringing order out of chaos to describe the way God works. And it's one of those things that, Yes, I knew that, but it hit me, maybe partly because I was thinking about our conversation upcoming, but I feel like that's how God uses me, is one of my giftings is organization and problem solving, taking something apart, putting it back together in a way that works, and it works well for the work I do. Right. Problem solving. How do I get this from point A to point B? And there's all these steps that have got to take place. And so I've got gifting in that way, and I see that I'm growing in that ability. So I think that'll be something that happens the way that I'm used on the renewed Earth, and that's my way of being creative and adding value. So then I see myself continuing on in the waste and recycling industry. Like I said, I've got this vision of zero waste on Earth, and there's going to be all these opportunities. You think about it, if the whole economic system is turned on its ear, right? It's a new economy. It's God's economy. There's going to be lots of opportunity, I feel like, for people to be creative and to make and manufacture, and all these things are going to be happening. There's going to be a definite role there for somebody to organize that waste and get it to where it's reused.

I love it. I also got to say, I love that you've been using the term Renewed Earth throughout this entire conversation. I pray I had at least a small role to play in that terminology. I talked at this about with Dr. Daryl Cosden on this podcast a while back about this.

I was like, hey, based on.

You studied this really, really deeply.

Is that a more accurate term? He's like, oh, 100%.

Like most serious New Testament scholars all agree that that's a better term than New Earth, because New Earth makes us think net New Earth.

And that's not what God has promised us in scripture.

It is renewed creation. And so I love that you're using that terminology. I can't say it because people are like, what the heck are you talking about? But, see, you can say it, because I know exactly what you're talking about.

Well, and on that podcast, when he used that term, my mind went to the Chronicles of Narnia, and I can't remember which book it is. That last one. And they start running, right? It isn't. They're transported, they start running, and they're coming into this, and it becomes fully in the new Kingdom. And that was such a great picture. A great way. CS Lewis, I know you like him, too. A great way of writing that. And you know, the kingdom is already right now.

Yes.

And we are here, not fully in it yet. So as we come into that, that's a much better picture than everything burning up and starting over.

Luke Skywalker, destroying the Death Star and obliterating it.

Right.

The typical American caricature of the end times. Hey, William, if we opened up your Amazon order history, which book would we see you purchasing the most to give away to your friends?

So couple books here. The Awe of God by John Bevere.

I haven't read this.

Ah, really good. And he is my answer to the next question about who to have on the show.

Never asked you.

I wanted to read this. This is chapter 14 out of the Awe of God. He says there will be communities to plan, cities to build, nations to oversee, galaxies to explore and develop, and infinitely more that aligns with how we were created to live. He's talking about life on the renewed Earth.

Yeah.

And when I read this, I thought, oh, we got to hear him talk about this more on Mere Christians.

I can't believe that he's talking about this. I love this. I feel like nobody's talking about these things. That that's a little unfair. But very few people.

I love that he, he, yeah, definitely heightened my sense of my awe of God and what that all means unpacking that. So that's definitely a good book. I recently reread the Me I want to be with John Ortberg as a way of discipling a younger believer. And you know his great line, there is a God and it is not you. It was a great reminder to me in his book, but a great primer for folks that are needing to grow in their faith. It's a well rounded book. I like it. And then yeah, the sacredness of secular work. Been talking about it. It really did catalyze my thinking and put me on another level. So I really appreciate you putting the time in on that one and I've given that away.

Yeah, that is one of the greatest compliments of that book. When people read it, they buy a dozen, which has been great because man, it took a long time to put that thing together. All right, who do you want to hear in this podcast most we talked about John Bevere, maybe somebody who's not a pastor.

You get any non.

You have any mere Christians on the list?

Yeah, there is a friend of mine here in the Central Valley. His name's Brent Riffle. He's the CEO of Ten Talents Foundation. He was a youth pastor at one point and he has worked for convoy charities and now he heads up this foundation and it's a charitable, it's a nonprofit foundation. But why I bring him up is, you know, he's the model of intrinsic value of your work. And you don't just be a client or whatever, you become his friend and he speaks into your life and models Jesus in such huge ways. And yeah, I'm in all the way that he works and I think he'd be great to hear about how he's helping folks use their wealth for the kingdom work.

It's good. That's a great answer. Hey William, what's one final thing you'd like to say or reiterate to our listeners before we sign off?

It's such an encouragement to me to remember to us that we're not second class as people that are in the working these jobs and not in for full time ministry. And that that's not, you know, God didn't intend it just to be evangelists who are spreading the words. It's us. And so if I'm in alignment with God, people are going to see that and see that they have value, that the work has value, and see that God is moving in all of it. And that's exciting to me.

I love it. William, I want to commend you, my friend, for the exceptional work you do for the glory of God and the good of others, for the level of care you show to your team, to your clients, to those around you, and for reminding us of the renewed earth, that this earth is eternal and so that our work with the earth has eternal significance to God. As you were talking about the intrinsic value of recycling a few minutes ago, I was thinking about Psalm 19 where David says that the stars declare the glory of God, right?

But when we're not caring for the earth, we are literally making it harder.

For God's glory to shine through creation. And that's just one of the many, many, many, many reasons why your work matters so, so much. William, thank you for the important work that you do.

Hey, if people want to connect with you, where can they find you online? Is LinkedIn the best place?

LinkedIn? Yeah, perfect.

William Winchester in Fresno, California. William, thanks for hanging out with us.

Thank you, Jordan.

Hey, if you've got somebody you'd love.

To hear on the podcast, let us.

Know@Jordanraynor.Com contact hey, thank you guys so much for listening.

I'll see you next week.

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