Cure Midlife Belly Fat | Dr. Jason Fung with Jorge Cruise
In this episode of the "Cure Midlife Belly Fat" podcast, host Jorge Cruise interviews Dr. Jason Fung, a nephrologist and author of The Obesity Code and the upcoming The Hunger Code. The conversation moves beyond the traditional calorie‑centric view of weight gain, emphasizing how a person’s environment, social circles, and cultural context shape obesity risk. Dr. Fung cites studies showing that moving to high‑obesity regions or adopting friends’ eating habits dramatically increase one’s own weight, and he highlights the stark contrast in obesity rates between Japanese living in Japan versus the United States. They critique the focus on calories alone, arguing that food quality, mindful eating, and education (e.g., Japan’s school nutrition lessons) matter more. The discussion then shifts to GLP‑1 medications (e.g., Ozempic, Wegovy). Dr. Fung explains how these drugs can be powerful jump‑starts for weight loss but carry risks such as loss of muscle, gastrointestinal issues, rare vision loss, and the “Ozempic face” phenomenon where sub‑cutaneous fat is lost while visceral fat remains. He stresses the importance of an off‑ramp strategy: using GLP‑1s to manage hunger while simultaneously learning sustainable dietary habits, protein intake, and social‑connected eating, rather than remaining on the drugs indefinitely. Fasting is presented as a tool that preferentially targets visceral fat, improves hunger regulation, and can be flexible (e.g., two meals a day, skipping lunch). The hosts discuss how modern screen time, COVID‑induced isolation, and solitary eating undermine mindful eating and social cues that help regulate intake. Dr. Fung promotes his forthcoming book The Hunger Code, which expands on hormonal drivers of hunger (insulin, cortisol, GLP‑1, sympathetic tone) and differentiates homeostatic, hedonic, and conditioned hunger. He also mentions a new bone‑broth product (Era) designed for fasting support, containing 12 g of protein per serving. The episode concludes with practical take‑aways: use GLP‑1s as a temporary tool, focus on protein‑rich foods, re‑engage in social activities for dopamine, adopt flexible intermittent‑fasting schedules, and consider pre‑ordering The Hunger Code (release March 3) and the associated free masterclass.
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Welcome back to the podcast, everyone, and happy 2026. I'm Jorge Cruise, your host, and I am thrilled to be welcoming you back to the Jorge Cruise Podcast. It's been a minute. I haven't seen you guys since last year, and I can't believe it's already February. Where did the month go? Where did last month go? And hopefully you're having a great start to your new year. I am so excited because I can't think of a better way to start this year, really, with our number one guest of all time, and that is Dr. Jason Fung. You guys know him from Toronto. He's the author of The Obesity Code. And on today's podcast, we're gonna kind of go deep into time-restricted eating because in my opinion, you guys know this, I'm 55 this year, you know, I'm turning 55 March 6th. And as excited as I am for this, 'cause I am, I feel the best I've ever felt. And I think I've learned so many valuable lessons in the last couple of years since my last book. I wrote my last book, The Cruise Control Diet, back in, gosh, it was 6 years ago. And in those 6 years, you guys know my story, I had a little bit of a midlife crisis when I turned 50. And I had a lot of soul searching, and I had to really think about not just my life, but what emotional stress that we all go through when things change. Whether it's losing a parent, you know, I lost my dad. Whether it's transitioning from a career, you know, not just from publishing. As you guys, I've been working on this thing called Zero Hunger Water and the ups and downs that come from doing a startup. And then for me, probably the hardest thing of all was not just getting older, but understanding that my body was just changing, and it wasn't betraying me, even though a lot people. It's like, oh, I hate getting old. It's just understanding a different chapter in our lives. And so today, as many of you guys know, you know, uh, in midlife, belly fat's a big issue. And the majority of you all are women. You know, you guys have been my, my top followers forever. And so, you know, someone who started in this business because of his mom— and you guys know my story in a nutshell— when my mom passed back in 1998, it was February 5th, she gave me kind of a challenge on, on her, on her bed, you know, as she was passing. And she said, Jorge, I want you to take this message to, to more people. And she actually mentioned Oprah Winfrey because we used to watch that show when I was in high school with her. And when she passed, um, I focused on that. You know, I learned from Tony Robbins years ago that what you get is what you focus in on. And rather than deal with it, which I didn't have the emotional probably maturity to deal with a parent passing so early, was, you know, she was only 64, I took that mission she gave me And I'm really— I don't know how I did it. Maybe it was Tony Robbins that helped partly, but 8 months later I was with Miss Oprah Winfrey on her show, and that changed my entire career. Where then Tony Robbins wrote the introduction of my first book, and that was 8 Minutes in the Morning. So now fast forward 25 years later, here I am, 55, and now I'm at the same age— well, not quite the same age, 10 years, 10 years younger than my mom, but I'm in midlife, you know. And for me The biggest thing has been overcoming emotional stress that comes from, you know, all these changes, you know, and my kids, my two sons, as you guys know, they're all in college and having an empty nest is difficult. And I also went through a second divorce. So not that I'm trying to play a violin here and play it on repeat for you guys, but I had to overcome these things. And so I'm super excited to share with you that this year there's a lot of great new things coming out. I have a new book that I've worked on that I want to share with you as a draft. It's called "The Zero Hunger Plan," and I'd love to offer it to you guys if you ever come to our coaching programs that I do Monday nights at 5:00 PM. You can just check it out. There's a link in bio. Go to jorgecruise.com, and if you join, you'll be getting an early draft. This isn't the final book, but it's really about how to add decades to midlife and also get rid of midlife belly fat. And, uh, that brings us to today's conversation with Dr. Jason Fung, because probably the thing I wanted to ask him the most that we hadn't done throughout any of our podcasts was talk about women in particular, and how in midlife women— and we talk about the guys too, so don't feel left out, guys— but understanding that in midlife women's hormones change even more so than men's. And for me, knowing where my mom was going through all that, I wanted to go deep on this with him because he has a new book coming out, uh, later this year, and we're going to talk about that when he's back on the podcast next month. But for this conversation, for this podcast, We're really looking at how to not just get rid of midlife belly fat, but how to do it from the perspective as a female that's going through midlife. And I think what you're going to learn, ladies, is that what you've learned about fasting is not off. You're going to understand how to modify when needed, if needed, and you're going to have confidence that's going to come from knowing what to do. And also know that you're not going to hurt your body if you do a time-restricted fast, you know. And a lot of my clients nowadays are even on GLP-1s and if you're on a GLP-1, this conversation's good for you as well because it'll help you understand not just the power of time-restricted eating, but it's also gonna teach you, I think, the mindset that Jason has created by working with thousands of people in Toronto. You know, he's originally a kidney expert and doctor, but he adapted his practice to work with those that are really struggling with weight because most people that have kidney issues are people that are overweight and have diabetes. So he is brilliant at understanding that mindset that comes with confidence, that comes from experience. And he's the doctor, he's truly the best doctor I've ever worked with when it comes to this subject. So I'm just so excited to start this year off, 2026, with you right now and with Dr. Jason Fung. So without any further ado, what do you say, guys? Let's get started. This episode is brought to you by Primal Kitchen. Now I've been friends with Mark Sisson, the creator of Primal Kitchen, for 20 years. And when I lived in Malibu, we shared so many incredible meals with Primal Kitchen products. His mayo is my absolute favorite. Whether it's mayo, the oils, or the dressing, Mark's created something special. And here's why I love it. It's made with avocado oil, one of the most anti-inflammatory oils on the planet. Most mayos use inflammatory soybean oil that ages you from the inside out. But Primal Kitchen's different. A dollop on your steak, your salad, your nachos. It makes everything more indulgent, more delicious, and genuinely anti-aging. It's a dopamine win that tastes incredible and actually supports turning off hunger. Right now, spend $30 or more and get a free Primal Kitchen mayo valued at $12. Head to primalkitchen.com/jorgecruise, and that's all one link. Go to primalkitchen.com/jorgecruise. This episode is brought to you by yours truly.
Yup.
Me, Jorge Cruise. Now this is where it gets personal, but my coaching program isn't just about physical hunger. It's about emotional hunger and social hunger. It's comprehensive. We meet Mondays at 5:00 PM Pacific on Google Meets with your chosen family, your community, and directly with me for accountability. Right now, I'm offering our first 100 founders 80% off. And if you're facing financial hardships, we've got you covered with a 96% off as well. You choose and we honor the honor system. And here's the bonus. You'll get an early draft of my upcoming book, Zero Hunger Plan, before anyone else. Limited to our first 100 members. This is your moment to transform not just how you eat, but why you eat. Go to jorgecruise.com and you can sign up right there. Just simply click on the Join Now button. Again, go to jorgecruise.com. That's jorgecruise.com and click on the Join Now button.
When I was young, thought you held me down. Occasional rules never let me drown. But now I see every sacrifice you made was laying bricks for a future I couldn't evade. Dejaste todo. Vida por mí. But you something I couldn't yet see. You told me once the world is hard, but you gave me faith. You gave me God. Now I know I can't forget the foundation set in every step. What you gave, I carry now through every storm.
I remember. Well, Jason, welcome back to the show. I'm so happy you're here. Happy New Year, buddy. How have you been?
Welcome back. I'm Doing great. Good to talk to you again.
Great seeing you, Jason. I can't believe it's already 2026. And I can tell you, uh, you've been a friend of the podcast for so many years, buddy. And I was just looking at this book. Do you remember this book from almost 7 years ago now?
Cruise Control. I'm surprised.
I wrote this when I was in Malibu working with that gal, my dear friend. Remember Brooke Burke?
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's amazing.
Dancing with the Stars. And you were kind enough to write the introduction, and this was my first attempt at talking about what I like to say, time-restricted eating. And obviously you've become, I think, the global expert on this topic. There's so many great physicians out there, doctors, uh, people that are just, you know, nutrition experts. Uh, you know, I, I kind of like, I'm learning about it still, but I can tell you it changed my life, you know, writing this book because it got me not to be scared anymore about eating like our ancestors. It's kind of understanding the blueprint of how our our species, you know, for thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of years, did not eat 3 meals a day, right, Jason? And they just did it.
Yeah, I think that's the key, and it's going back to that.
So let's do this, Jason. I know you've got a couple really great surprises that are coming out this year. You have a new book, which I think, if you don't mind, we'll save for the end of the show to kind of preview, preview it. And then obviously we'll have you back to talk about this new book. And you've got a new incredible bone broth that I can't wait to tease right now, that people are going to love. Perfect high-protein way to break this fast, uh, and to break this fast, uh, and as well as the new book. But we'll save all these new things for the end of the show. So there's a teaser, guys, if you're listening or watching on YouTube or on Spotify. But let's start with the beginning because you did not become an intermittent fasting or time-restricted expert really, uh, intentionally. You started in, well, tell, tell, tell the story of how you got started with, with your, your, um, your interest in the kidneys and how you're a doctor of that and how that led you. Because I always find so interesting how one, one path can lead to a new direction. And somehow here we are talking about time-restricted eating and weight loss. And I think we're going to talk about women's health, women in midlife, GLP-1s. But let's start with the, with the foundation of how you got started in medicine even. And then how that path took you to time-restricted eating. Please, Jason.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's, um, it was a very sort of circuitous path. So I started in medicine sort of very traditionally, and then I went into internal medicine, and I went to Los Angeles, UCLA, to do my fellowship in kidney disease. And really, the specialty itself, each sort of individual specialty has its own sort of, um, you know, it draws its own people. So surgeons and stuff tend to be really action-oriented people, and the Orthopedic surgeons tend to be like real athletic people and stuff. Internal medicine draws a lot of people who just like to think about stuff, and especially kidney disease because that's, that's the, it's a bit of a complex field. So we have to think about a lot of electrolytes and all this sort of stuff. So I really liked kidney disease and so I treated it for the most part. And what happened of course is that during that time as I was going through treat, my training and stuff, obesity started to go up. Like, you know, it's a big epidemic, obviously. And about 10 years after the obesity epidemic started, you get this obesity which led to type 2 diabetes. You got a type 2 diabetes epidemic. And the thing about kidney disease is that that's one of the manifestations of type 2 diabetes. So it causes all kinds of problems, heart problems, strokes, cancers, you know, but kidney disease is one of the big ones. So it turns out that the most common cause of kidney disease really is type 2 diabetes. So After about 10 years in practice, you know, I'm treating more and more type 2 diabetes-related kidney disease. And, and, you know, all of a sudden I'm starting to think about this and I, I start to realize that the way we thought about the disease is really just all wrong, which is kind of, you know, I guess very, uh, strange to think that, oh, all these doctors are just all wrong. But it, you know, as I thought about it, it's like, it's absolutely true. Like, think about it this way. If you have diabetic kidney disease, right? If you have kidney disease, it's caused by your diabetes. So you can't just treat the kidney disease. You gotta get rid of the diabetes, which everybody says was impossible. But the thing about type 2 diabetes is that everybody knew it was reversible. Everybody knew it. Doctors knew it, nutritionists knew it, everybody knew it. If you lost weight, then your type 2 diabetes would often get better or go away. So the problem was not that it wasn't reversible. The problem is you had to get people to lose weight, which is how I became very interested in the question of weight loss. And that's something that, um, you know, is sort of glossed over in medical school. It gets, uh, you know, dumbed down to, oh, it's all about calories in, calories out, right? Body fat equals calories in minus calories out. And it's like, yes, that is always going to be true. That's not the question, right? So if calories in is greater than calories out, then you're going to gain body fat because body fat is just the way you store calories. But the real question is, why is your calories in greater than your calories out? And everybody says, well, it's because you're eating too much. It's like, well, that's not actually the reason, right? You're eating too much because you're hungry, right? That's the real problem. What is driving you to keep those calories in greater than calories out? Because obviously, if you weren't hungry, then you wouldn't be eating that much and then you wouldn't gain weight, which is the real lesson of Ozempic and these GLP-1 drugs. Is that you can't simply reduce your calories because you'll always fail, right?
Because I think— not to interrupt you, but that's such a profound statement coming from a real MD who studied real science and understands this. Because I think everyone— there's this— do you think it's still there a little bit, this battle? I know it was 10 years ago between insulin.
Still there.
Tell everyone about that because I feel like You're the one that lifted the, the COVID off this. And a lot of people will still say, well, no, if you eat 1,000 calories and you want to lose weight, just eat 500 calories, right, Jason? Yeah, it's a math problem. Why, why, how did you see this differently? And maybe dive into that. Not that I don't interrupt your story, Jason, because I think it's just worth repeating that this is wrong.
It's all wrong because the thing is that everybody thinks that the calories that you store, which is body fat, you know, so calories, uh, stored, which is body fat, equals calories in minus calories out, right? So it's just like you say, you could say alcoholism equals alcohol in minus alcohol out, right? Doesn't mean you can just say to somebody, just drink less alcohol. Do you think you'll— that you will solve alcoholism by telling somebody just drink less alcohol, right? Of course not, because the question is not that alcohol in is greater than alcohol out. The question is, why is alcohol in greater than alcohol out, right? So maybe they're depressed, Maybe they're addicted, maybe they're suffering emotional trauma, PTSD, whatever it is. That's why they're drinking so much alcohol, right? So they're addicted.
Well said.
Well said. So it's the same thing with the calories, right? So if you're eating too many calories, which is— that is, if you're eating calories in greater than calories out, then you will store body fat, right? It doesn't mean you can simply eat fewer calories because again, remember, there's 3 variables here. Body fat, calories in and calories out. If you change one, which is eat fewer calories, then you might lose body fat or you might burn fewer calories. And which one does your body do? That's the question, right? So does it— if you eat fewer calories, do you store fewer calories, right, that is body fat, or do you burn fewer calories, right? Because if you simply burn fewer calories, you will not lose body fat. And the thing is that that's what every scientific study has shown. If you simply reduce 500 500 calories a day, you will burn 500 calories less per day and your body weight will plateau. It has to be true because obviously if I were to say, okay, I'm gonna eat 500 fewer calories a day, I should lose a pound a week. Does that mean in 3, uh, years that I'll be 0 pounds? Like, obviously not, right? So at some point, yeah, yeah, it's gonna have to reduce your calories that you burn. It turns out that that happens almost immediately. So if you simply take this equation, cal— body fat equals calories in minus calories out, and you simply flip it around, you could rewrite the same equation, calories in equals body fat plus calories out, which says that for every calorie you burn, you could either store it or burn it, right? For every calorie you eat, right? If you eat 2,000 calories, you can choose to burn it or store it. If you eat 3,000 calories, you can choose to burn it or store it, right? But how do you choose, right? You don't. It's not a conscious choice. It all comes down to your hormones, right? So if your insulin is way high—
one more time, so it's about what? Hormones.
It's about your hormones because your hormones— so for every calorie you eat, your body will either store it, body fat, or burn it. But which one your body does makes a huge difference to how much body fat you store, right? Yes. But which one does it do? Well, it all depends on your hormones. If you have a lot of insulin, you ramp up your insulin way high. How? Well, you're eating all the time. You're eating refined carbohydrates, you're eating snacks, you're eating donuts, you're eating muffins, these foods that stimulate a lot of insulin. Your insulin is going to tell your body to store it. So suppose you eat you know, 800 calories in the morning. You eat steak and eggs in the morning, big breakfast, steak and eggs. What's gonna happen? Well, insulin's not gonna go up much, so all those calories are still floating around giving you energy. What, what's gonna happen is you're gonna stay full until lunch or maybe even till dinner because you're gonna be so full right now. Compare that to what if you ate 800 calories but drank a Frappuccino? You'd be hungry 10 minutes later. Everybody knows it. You know what I know?
Any sugary carbohydrate?
Yeah. White bread and jam or whatever, right? You're going to be hungry at like 9 or 10, right? You know it. I know it. Everybody knows it. So why pretend that the calories are the same, right? Why would you say those two 800-calorie portions are the same? There's nothing the same about them. In the case of steak and eggs, you didn't store those calories, so body fat didn't really go up, and you left those calories for your body to use throughout the day. In the case of the Frappuccino, you stored all those calories. Well, your body's like, hey, I have no energy, I'm hungry, right? So at 10, 10 o'clock, you're going to look for a low-fat muffin or something, some other refined carbohydrate. Then insulin spikes up, your body says, okay, take those and store it away, right? It's just like if you made $100, but you immediately put it under your bed, you can't use it. Now you wanna go buy a hamburger. Well, you have no money. Sorry. Right? Same thing. If you get $100, leave it in your wallet, you want to go buy a hamburger? Sure. Go buy a hamburger. You've got it there, right? Same thing. If you put it away immediately into storage, you're not going to have that available for use. So why pretend those 800-calorie portions are the same thing? They're completely different. Now, those hormones act on your behavior, not directly, but through hunger and satiety. Right? So if you can take foods that don't stimulate insulin, for example, you're not going to be as hungry. If you do the ones that do, you are going to be hungry. And this is the point. The problem is not the calories, because in both cases the calories are the same. The problem is what happens to the hormones that are stimulated, right? Because those two foods, the minute you put them in your mouth, your body produces different hormones, right? You eat brownies, insulin goes up. You eat broccoli, it doesn't. Right? So why pretend that 100 calories of brownies is the same as 100 calories of broccoli? It's not. Yeah. There's nothing the same. And so people get all bent outta shape about thermo, you know, oh, you're breaking the laws of thermo. There's no breaking of laws of thermodynamics. It's ridiculous.
What's the question some, some, uh, hate naysayers say? What do they typically say?
They're always like saying that, oh, they say, they say I'm crazy because it's like, it's all, physics. It's all calories. It's all math. It's like, no, this is about physiology. We're not breaking any rules of physics, rules of thermodynamics, right? It's all about where those calories are going, right? It's not about the total number of calories. It's about what are you— what is your body doing with those calories? And the difference between those two foods, right, brownies and broccoli, even though if they're the same calories, it means that some foods are more fattening than other foods because they stimulate your body to secrete the hormones that tell your body to gain fat. It's not a negative thing, like we need a certain amount of body fat, right? But you're telling your body to store more body fat, so you're gaining more body fat. And that's the whole point. If you're— if all I'm saying is that some foods are more fattening than other foods, isn't that just logical? Doesn't everybody know that brownies are more fattening than broccoli? It doesn't even make sense why these people are so bent out of shape about calories. Because it's not about the calories, it's about what your body does with the calories, right? Do you store it or do you burn it? And that's the key. And that's where you really have to focus in on the hormones that these, these foods release. Because remember, foods contain two things. They contain calories, which is the energy contained within it. Yes. But two, it contains information about what to do with it, right? So when you take those foods Your body, depending on the food and depending on how you eat it, will release different hormones. They'll release different levels of insulin, GLP-1, GIP, sympathetic tone. It'll fill up the stomach, so it has baroreceptors, which are different. So it contains information about what you're supposed to do with those calories, right? And that's really important. So just pretending it's all about calories is a dead end, and we've done it for years, right? Just cut calories, just cut calories. No, you will not lose weight if you simply ignore the most important aspect of weight loss, which is what your body is doing, the hormones there, right?
Yeah.
And I always think that the hormones, they're so underappreciated, but they're so obviously important because— yes, if you think about, um, puberty— before puberty, boys and girls have roughly the same amount of body fat. After puberty, girls have about 50% more body fat. Why is it willpower? Hell no. Obviously not. It's because boys secrete a lot of testosterone and girls secrete a lot of estrogen and progesterone, which tells their bodies— on the one hand, the boys— to gain more muscle. So they're eating a lot, right? You, you, you know, teenage boys, they basically clear out your fridge every day, right?
Yes, exactly.
It's amazing how much they eat. Well, they're not gaining fat. A lot of them are gaining a lot of muscle. Right? Well, why? Because their bodies are secreting all this testosterone. The girls, they put fat on their breasts and their hips. That's just what happens during puberty. So they have more body fat than the boys, but it's not willpower. It's not exercise. It's not any of these. It's the hormones. It's not what they ate.
Yes.
It's about the hormones telling your body what to do.
Jason, if anyone is watching right now, and I think this is a great way to segue into women in midlife. Whose hormones are, you know, different than when, what you just painted right now in puberty. But before we get to that, Jason, just let's recap. Let's see if I can recap this for everyone listening. I think what I'm hearing, because I've talked about it obviously in this book that you endorsed, and I'm so grateful for that. But let's see if I get this because I feel like in today's world, in 2026, people still believe, unfortunately, that calories are calories. And obviously we're saying it's not. Is there someone in your study of all this when you were trying to help all your diabetic patients and all the people that had kidney dysfunction and trying to get them to reduce weight because you were trying to get them— I remember we've talked about this in other podcasts where you were really trying to get them the best way to lose weight. And then remind me, Jason, was it a study or a book or was it a colleague or someone that got you to realize that insulin was more important than calories. Remind me how you discovered this little gem out there. Was it— I, I don't recall the story.
It was, it was really because in type 2 diabetes, so this is, uh, before the GLP-1s and before, uh, so insulin was sort of a mainstay of treatment of type 2 diabetes. And the thing is that everybody knew that if you gave people insulin, they gained weight. Right. So that was where, when I really thought about it, it didn't make, didn't make any sense because on the one hand, here I was a doctor who was taught that it's all about calories, right? It's all about calories, nothing to do with hormones. It's just calories in, calories out. And if you can't control your calories because you have low willpower, right? And that's, that's the, that's basically what doctors are sort of taught and most a lot of academics still believe, right? You can control what you eat, so you can eat fewer calories and you're going to— you should lose weight. If you can't lose weight, then that's on you, and that's because you have low willpower. It's actually a hugely destructive attitude that almost all the people in the universities and the doctors and dietitians have. Actually, it's usually destructive because they don't understand that it leads to sort of a lot of fat shaming and all this sort of stuff, right? Because, um, you know, what you're doing is equating a sort of excessive insulin with low willpower. And they're not the same thing. But anyway, on the one hand, I was—
right, Jason, for any, any woman out there or man who's trying to lose weight, why can we actually say this with, with confidence that it truly isn't their fault, right, Jason? If they're in this—
because the advice they were given was so bad, right? It's just the horrible advice. And I've heard this advice. I've even given this advice years ago that it's, you know, just, just eat less, right? Eat less and you can eat the same thing, just less. It's portion control. You know, cut 500 calories a day and you'll lose weight, it's guaranteed. It's guaranteed to not lose weight. But the point is that it's, you know, if somebody doesn't lose weight, there's two ways to look at it. Either the advice is bad, right? The cut calories advice is bad, or the advice is good and the people are bad. They don't listen to it, they can't follow it, they don't have willpower, right? So I think the advice is horrible. I think the advice is bad, and so that's not their fault. Whereas everybody else likes to think that their advice is good and that it's the people that are bad, right? It's the people who have failed, not the advice that failed, right? And so I think it's actually— that's why I think it's— yeah, it blows me away. And I think about it, I'm always like, I'm amazed how much, you know, how much the medical sort of institutions and everybody, all these people who are pushing calories, calories, calories in, calories out, if the calorie's a calorie, all this kind of crap, because obviously calorie is not a calorie because they contain different information, right?
Yeah.
But it stuns me how much, you know, they've done this blaming the victim, right? So the people who are overweight, they're victims of it. They're, they're, they're sicker. They have more health problems. You know, they get shamed into this, but instead of helping, you know, the doctors and the medical societies and stuff They blame the victim. They say, my advice is good, you're bad. And the whole thing makes no sense, right? Because if you think about it, if you think, suppose you had a school with 100 children and one of them fails. Well, maybe the child, you know, watched TV, played too much video games, whatever, didn't study. Well, what if 70 children fail? Because in the United States, you have a situation where about 70% of people are overweight or obese. So is it really the child's fault, or is it going to be the school's fault? If 70 children fail? Obviously it's the school, teacher, learning environment fault, right? It's the same here. It's not the individual. It's not the individual American who's failing. It's the system that's failing. But the system doesn't want to blame itself, doesn't want to take responsibility for the problems. They want to blame the individual. That's— it's heartless. It's completely heartless.
Is there a term in, in the medical world versus the old, this counting calories versus this, I wanna say hormone insulin-based way for people to, if they're considering talking to someone, you know, I would say talk to you of course, and we'll talk about that. Of course you have an online portal and all that, but what are the terms? So if people are doing research and like, well, let me see if my doctor or my person is on the right side of history here. What's the wrong side called, Jason, other than counting calories?
And what's the new more— Yeah, calories.
What would be the term if we were to like label it properly? How would you label it?
It's, it's sort of like hormonal, it's sort of like hormonal obesity theory or something like that. It's actually like even 10 years after I wrote The Obesity Code, it's still not really, um, well thought of. Like the, the idea is that it's not calories, it's the hormones that drive the calories, right? The calories in, calories out, whole thing, right? So it's not that it's calories, is that you're driving it with these different hormones. That is, if you increase certain hormones, you're going to get hungry or you're going to get full, and that's what's going to cause you to lose or gain weight. And the whole thing is—
that term again, Jason, that term you would call it—
it's like a— I usually call it hormonal obesity theory, which is sort of like, let's look versus sort of calorie-based theories, right? So calories in, calories out is the usual way people talk about it. It's, it's, it's a massively under-discussed area, although I've started to see a few people sort of talk about hormones and in obesity recently. So it's, it's, it's hopefully getting some green shoots. But, you know, the— getting back to the insulin, the whole thing is that on the one hand, I was brought up with this whole insulin, this whole calories, willpower sort of, you know, paradigm, right?
Sure.
And then on the other hand, as soon as I gave somebody insulin They gained weight, but why? They had the same amount of willpower, right? They had the same everything. And it's not one person, it's every single person I give insulin to, they gain weight. So everybody knew, every doctor, every patient, every nurse knew that this is a side effect of insulin. You gain weight. So wait a second. So what causes weight gain? Is it really calories or is it insulin? Because if you say A causes B. What do you do? How do you prove that? You give A, see if B happens, right? So if you say A causes B, give A, see if B goes up. Well, insulin— you give insulin, you gain weight. Take away insulin, you lose weight. That's causal relationship, right? That means insulin causes weight gain, not calories, right? Not calories. Because here's the thing, that some people are eating 3,000, 4,000 calories a day and not gaining any weight. That happens all the time. We know that because there's been lots of studies of people who are gaining and losing weight. You see these people who are obese, uh, on The Biggest Loser or whatever. Some of them were, you know, not gaining or losing weight and eating 3,500 calories, right? It's a lot. Or like, like in— if you look back at the amount, if you look at the amount of food that some of the teenagers are eating and stuff, it's like 3,500, 4,000 calories as as they are teenagers, right? It's a lot of food, yet they're not gaining weight, right? They're, they're eating it because their bodies— again, comes down to the hormones— they're secreting testosterone. These boys are secreting testosterone. They're getting the signal, you must gain more muscle, right? Because the testosterone— and lose fat, because that's what testosterone does. We know this again because if you give somebody testosterone who is low in testosterone, even if they're 60 years old, they gain muscle and lose fat. If you take their, the testosterone away, like if they have prostate cancer and you take out their testicles, so they lower the testosterone, what happens? Well, they lose muscle and gain fat, right? Mm-hmm. So obviously testosterone's a very important hormone to gain muscle and lose fat. So anyway, these teenage boys, they have the signal, all this testosterone, which is saying, gain, pack on the muscle. So they're going and eating and they're very active, right? Yeah. And they're gaining muscle. Right. So you're eating a lot of calories, obviously, but they're not gaining fat. No. But why are they eating so much? Because the testosterone had made them hungry so that they go eat and you see what they pound back, right? It's not good stuff for the most part. It's mostly junk food. Right.
So it's like, yeah, yeah, it should be, but yeah, yeah, yeah.
It should be something good. But most of the time you see it's not. It's whatever they can buy on the, you know, convenience store, right?
Uber Eats, whatever.
Yes, exactly. But they're still packing on muscle and losing fat, right? So it's crazy, but it comes down to the hormones, right? So until you understand the hormones' influence on body fat, you can't actually lose weight. Then you say, but the foods you eat influence your hormones. That's where it's important, right? So if you eat protein, a lot of people talk about protein. You know, eat more protein. Well, what does protein do? Well, it stimulates a lot of GLP-1, for example, and GLP-1 tells you to stop eating, right? So if you eat high protein foods like chicken breast or steak and eggs and stuff, you stay full. Chicken broth. And that's, that's the thing that now people are talking about eating more protein. Yeah. So the chicken broth is interesting because again, a very, very traditional food. And this is a great product.
That say the name of this product, Jason, that you, it's called Era.
Yeah. I love it. So I helped develop this and yeah, it's called, uh, yeah, the, the, the, it's supposed to, it's basically, so bone broth is a very traditional food, but the problem with bone broth is that it takes so long. Yeah. It's, it's actually delicious. So, you know, my parents, my mom and my mother-in-law, they make bone broth every day. Right. So that's just part of their culture, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
They go, they buy the bones for very cheap. They throw it in the slow cooker and they put it on all day and then that night they'll have bone broth with other things, right? But the problem is that it takes like, you have to simmer the bones for like 16, 18 hours. And you can tell because it's the bones when you put 'em in, have all this stuff. When you take 'em out, they all crack apart and fall apart.
Yeah.
So all this collagen and all this stuff that, you know, hyaluronic acid and all this stuff that's good for your bones and your joints has gone into the soup. And then you drink the soup so you get all the protein. If you look at the, um, in, in, in the, the, uh, bone broth, uh, it's like 12 grams of protein. And like zero fat and zero carbs and zero everything else. It's just protein. But then the thing about the instant bone broth that, uh, Era developed, the difference is that there's only one ingredient. There's just chicken bones. Everything else you add— you want, you want to add some salt, go ahead, you add, but you control it, right? And you get it instantly without this sort of 17 hours of, of, um, simmering. But now, yeah, now you have this broth that has protein, which is going to manage the hunger, right? And this— so we developed it for the fasting so that if you're fasting, yes, it's not a pure fast, but on the other hand, you can get this sort of nourishing, uh, food that's going to manage your hunger because it's the— it's, it's got all that protein which is going to stimulate the GLP-1. And that's the thing, right? And I think you, you're, you know, that's what the new book is about, Hunger— The Hunger Code. And you know, your Zero Hunger Water, it's about managing the hunger, right? And that's the real important thing because that's where You really have to— that's really the next step, right? This whole managing calories was a dead end, complete dead end. Why? If you simply eat the same foods but less, what is going to happen? Your hunger will go up, right? So you're eating fewer calories, but your hunger is going up. And now you're— you can white-knuckle it and keep going, but you're always going to be fighting your body, right? As your calories goes down, your hunger goes up. You're always going to be at a mismatch. Now, what if you lower the hunger instead?
Bingo.
Now, calories goes down, but now you're fighting enough fighting, right?
Jason, no GLP-1 required in the sense of an injection.
Yes, exactly.
So the, create this effect. Well, oh, tell us about that. Maybe this is our point to kind of look at this option. Let's all pretend we're all in midlife. I know you are. I am. And probably 70, if not 80% of our viewers, listeners are women in midlife. So, and a lot of them are, as I'm sure you're aware, they're in midlife. They have this midlife belly fat, you know what I mean? And they want to do something about it. And so they hear about GLP-1 injections, right?
Yeah.
And then some of them say, no, no, no, I'm not gonna do it that way. I'm gonna do the old Atkins way. So they're at that crossroads. Would you take us through first? I mean, I don't know if this is the right time to do it, Jason, but, and I, and you've made a very good point, the difference between men and women with hormones. So now, because we have so many women watching, would you tell us for a minute a little bit of what it's like to be a woman from your perspective in midlife whose hormones now, I guess through perimenopause, are starting to do what, Jason? And then they become menopausal and then, you know, and then it's all that. So how does that affect everything? And then take us down path one. They don't do GLP-1. And then maybe they can do protein, they can do like some minerals to satiate the hunger. But then point 2 is that maybe they decided GLP-1 and, you know, an injection. But take, take us a little bit beforehand. A woman that's about to go into perimenopause, how old is she? Probably Jason, probably in her late 30s.
Perimenopause, probably a little. I mean, most people are getting menopause somewhere in their sort of late 40s, late 40s to 50s. Right. So perimenopause is around that area when. And the main thing is the loss of estrogen. And the thing is that perimenopause is actually one of the highest risk periods for weight gain, right? And this is where everybody who thinks about calories in, calories out is completely out to lunch because obviously if it was all about calories, well, these people are eating the same way they've always eaten, right? What's the difference? The difference is that their estrogen went down and estrogen is known to suppress hunger, right? And, uh, that's the key. So as your estrogen starts to go down, then your hunger starts to go up, and then that's where you're going to eat more and then gain more of that weight, right? And you actually see it— it's very interesting— but as you go through the cycle, the, the, the menstrual cycle, there are actually differences in how much you eat. So if you look at— so from the end of the, the period, so when they bleed which is considered sort of day zero period. Estrogen then starts to go up until ovulation. And what you see is as estrogen starts to go up to the mid-cycle ovulation, uh, they actually eat less. So they eat less and less and less. And then after ovulation, estrogen goes down, progesterone goes up, and progesterone stimulates appetite. So then they start to eat more. So over the cycle, there's actually this, this sort of up and down hunger as well. But with menopause, of course, what happens is estrogen just goes down, which hunger goes up, and that's where you get all of this weight gain, right? And that's a real issue, right? And none of it explained by calories in, willpower, all that sort of thing, exercise, because for the most part, these people are doing the same thing. And you hear it all the time, like, I'm doing exact same thing as I'm eating the same, I'm doing the same activities, I'm doing everything the same, but I'm still gaining weight. Yeah, because you're perimenopausal. It's your hormones that have changed, and it's the hormones that control your body fat. And the point is that if You, if you understand that, then you can say, oh, okay, so now what you can do is you can, you know, there's obviously hormone replacement, but now you have to manage the excess hunger that's coming with the perimenopausal period, in which case then you can say, okay, well, there's several options. As you said, you can manage the hunger with GLP-1s like Ozempic, right? And that's an option. I mean, I have nothing against GLP-1s, but there are side effects obviously, right? So people talk about a couple of the side effects and one of the major ones that people people worry about is the muscle loss, and that seems to be a very real concern. So the thing is that if you give people GLP-1, you're giving them a satiety hormone. It really kills their appetite cuz they're full. So there's side effects. You get nausea, you get vomiting. But the other thing is that when you're full, you don't want to eat protein, right? Because protein's very satiating. So protein actually stimulates a lot of GLP-1. So when you're eating chicken breast or, you know, meat or something, you're gonna stimulate a lot of GLP-1, which is going to, you know, make you full. If you give yourself Ozempic and you're already full, you don't wanna eat a chicken breast, but you could eat something that doesn't stimulate it, like, you know, cookies or refined carbohydrates, bread, you know, muffins, donuts, right? So what happens if you're not careful is that you wind up taking the GLP-1s, you eat, you get, you eat fewer calories because you're you're full, but the calories you're eating is just all refined carbohydrates because that's what looks good to you at the time. Just like when you're com— when you've eaten a full meal, right, and somebody says, hey, do you want this pork chop? You're like, no, definitely not, right? Yeah, I'm full. But if somebody says, hey, do you want a cookie? You're like, sure, well, maybe one and maybe two, because then it's—
yeah, it becomes this, uh, it's almost like an addiction, right? Because it produces— it produces something you're not receiving, right, Jason?
Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's, it stimulates dopamine, so you get rewarded. That's actually what I talk about in The Hunger Code, which is this whole idea that it's not simply the physical hunger. There's hedonic hunger, which is hedonic hunger— hedonic means related to pleasure. And what basically happens is that there are foods that you eat not because you're physically hungry, but because they look good or smell good or make you feel better, right? Because dopamine is the reward hormone, right? So food can really stimulate your dopamine. That's why you enjoy food. I mean, think about it. That's why anybody— excuse me— eats dessert. Because— not because you're hungry, you've just eaten a full meal. You're gonna eat it because it's gonna make you feel good.
Dopamine goes up.
Same thing.
Yes.
The dopamine spikes up, and the refined carbohydrates are great for that because you get this massive spike in glucose. You're massively spiking making your dopamine, you got all this sugar rush, right? So you're getting that, and this is where it can slip into food addiction, right? Because at some point you might be eating not because you're physically hungry, but you're trying to sort of boost yourself up, right? This is the so-called idea of a comfort food.
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It comforts you. It makes you feel good because something else happened that makes you feel bad. You broke up with your girlfriend, boyfriend. You feel bad. You eat a tub of ice cream, right? Classic. Well, you're not physically hungry, but you want the dopamine because you're feeling so down. You want it to lift yourself up.
So what are that? It's almost like alcoholism. It's that effect.
Yeah.
Why do we drink? To feel the effect. And you get, yeah. I mean, I hate to call it a high, but you do get a sugar high of sorts, right?
Yeah.
Oh, you totally get the high. Dopamine high.
Dopamine high.
Yeah. And, and some people get addicted to it. And the thing is that there is more and more research talking about this food addictions and it happens a lot with ultra-processed carbohydrates. And it makes sense. Like if you ever watch one of these shows, like, you know, on, on the Learning Channel or whatever.
Yeah.
People are 1,000 pounds or whatever.
Yes.
You watch them eat and they're clearly addicted, right? It means that they're eating even though they know that this, this food is killing them. And some people say, well, you know, the thing is that you can't not eat food, right? It's like, that's not the point. The point is that you shouldn't be eating the ultra-processed foods that are creating these massive spikes in dopamine. Because if you think, when people say, I'm addicted to blank, blank, what, what is it like? Pizza, cookies, bread, you know, that's what people are addicted to.
It's the dopamine. They're addicted to the dopamine spike, right?
It's the refined carbohydrates that cause that dopamine spike.
Are you familiar with the incredible work? I've been reading a new book called The Dopamine Nation by Dr. Anna at Stanford. Have you heard of her work?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's along the same lines.
She agrees with you completely.
Completely.
She runs the addiction program there at Stanford, I believe.
Yeah, it's— there's a huge amount of research in the last 10 years that, uh, talking about food addictions because it's, uh, it's definitely real. And the thing is that a lot of people still deny it because they say, well, no, food is all natural. It's like, well, it's not all natural cuz you processed it, right? You might as well say that tobacco is all natural, right? Nicotine came from a tobacco plant, right?
Um, so is wine and from the grapes.
So is alcohol. Yeah. Alcohol is addictive. It's natural. Poppies gave us morphine, right? So it's not about the, the actual naturalness of it. It's by processing out the addictive compounds. And you can do that with foods, of course. And the thing is that if you have a food addiction, right, just like any addiction, then you have to treat it like an addiction. And this is where it's really important, because if you're addicted to refined carbohydrates, then you need to abstain. You can't just say moderation. Right. And this is the thing that's so stupid because if you think, like, say you have an alcoholic, your friend is alcoholic, you say, oh, just have one glass of wine. Like, you're gonna— you're the worst friend ever, right? No, no, see, see, see, yeah, nothing. If you have somebody who's addicted to heroin, do you say heroin, everything's okay in moderation?
Just a small amount.
Yeah, yeah, just one sniff of that cocaine. Like, you can't do it. Because addictions are different, right? So if I agree, but when it's food addictions, all these dietitians, all these doctors are saying, ah, you should eat 50% carbohydrates.
Why?
They're addicted to the carbohydrates. And it's not all carbohydrates. It's the refined carbohydrates, right? Natural foods are not addictive in that way. Like when you say I'm addicted to X, they're all highly processed ice cream, whatever it is, right? It's nobody ever says I'm addicted to salmon. I'm addicted to— stay— I love eggs. I'm not addicted to eggs. I'm not addicted to eggplant.
And there's no side effect to eating a high protein, healthy fat diet. And I would say green vegetables, those are plants, those are carbohydrates, but super low— what do we call these carbohydrates that are low glycemic index?
Low glycemic index.
Low glycemic index carbohydrates are Refine protein, healthy proteins, whether it's a bone broth, a steak, eggs, egg whites. Healthy fats are good, right? Just on the absolute oils, healthy fats. And if we do that, and again, the seed oils is the processing, right?
It's the processing that's the problem in the seed oils, right? Yes. So when you eat natural oils like coconut oil, butter, right?
Yes.
They're natural. Our body knows how to handle it. There you go. There you go. With processing, what you do is you concentrate a single thing, right? And seed oils, like, you know, you take corn oil— corn's not oily, so what are you doing to the corn? Well, you have to take out the one single thing of that corn, and the problem is that our bodies can't handle that. Avocados are natural. You eat avocados, fine, no problem, right? Olives, you squish them, you get olive oil, but that's fine. It's when you process them, it's the processing that's the problem, right? And that's really You know, what it comes down to is understanding that yes, there are foods that you should, you know, eat, and there's certain foods that you should not eat. These can all be a problem. And this is the thing, right? It's like there's all these different things that can cause weight gain, right? It could be insulin, it could be GLP-1, could be, uh, you know, cortisol with stress, for example. Uh, it could be food addictions, it could be ultra-processed foods, it could be, you know, the environment. All of these things. So therefore you have to get to the root of that problem and then solve it. It's a food addiction, treat this food addiction. You can't simply say eat fewer calories because this is the approach we've taken, right? The approach we've taken is that, you know, to the man with a hammer, every problem is a nail. So problem is food addiction which causes your weight gain, eat fewer calories. Your problem is refined carbohydrates, you know, solution, eat fewer calories. Your problem is ultra-processed food, solution, eat fewer calories. Your problem is not enough sleep. Solution: eat fewer calories. What if your problem is too little sleep? Get more sleep. Isn't that the solution? Not eat fewer calories. Beautifully said. Yes, it's, it's a crazy, crazy thing. I always think that these, these people never really thought about the problem of weight loss, weight gain, and that's why we're at this situation where they believe that they're so correct and that everything is calories in, calories out. No, no, no, you're not getting to a deeper understanding of what caused that imbalance, right? You simply say there's an imbalance, eat less, right? Yeah. Just like drink less alcohol.
So if we, so if at any age, male or female, whether we're a teenager, 20s, 30s, 40s, 80s, 90s, centenarian, if we can eat a high protein, healthy fat diet that's low glycemic carbohydrates, right, Jason? I'm using the right term there, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
We're gonna be in a, in a very healthy place. We're gonna have a low waist circumference, right, Jason? We're gonna— our cognitive abilities are going to be good, our energy is going to be good. Now dopamine, we can get dopamine from exercise, from sleep, from sunlight, from community conversations like this, right, Jason? Listening to a great podcast, beautiful music, a movie. There's so many other ways than to going to— what do we call them again? What are the bad guys? These high insulin spiking processed carbohydrates, right?
Processed foods. Yeah, processed carbohydrates for the most part. And yeah, I think that's really important to understand that, hey, cutting those out, you know, eating these natural foods which are gonna be high in, you know, and it could be high in carbohydrate, but they're natural carbohydrates, right? They're not carbohydrates, right?
What's one of your favorites? Low, uh, low glycemic spiking kind of carbohydrates. What's one that you enjoy that everyone, I mean, I know for me there's a couple. Do you have a one that's your favorite? A low glycemic kind of carbohydrate?
No, probably quinoa, I think. Yes. I actually think quinoa's quite delicious. It is, yeah. I more eat it for that than anything else.
Yeah.
But, um, yeah, I mean, I also eat like, uh, you know, a lot of vegetables are relatively higher in carbohydrates, but squash is also relatively higher, but I enjoy it and it's generally okay. Like, it's, you know, the, the thing is that it's not the carbohydrates because, you know, some people think I'm sort of a low-carb guy, which I am sort of, but it's really a low insulin, right? The point is to get a low insulin, not necessarily to eat less carbohydrates, but to spike your insulin less. And there's different ways to do that, right? So that's, that's actually in The Hunger Code. I call it my number one sort of golden rule, number one, which is avoid ultra-processed foods, right? That's—
I love that—
probably the most important thing. The second most important thing is the sort of make sure you have a regular fasting period, which you and I have talked about for a long time. Again, because again, it sort of resets your whole body, allows your insulin to fall, allows you to bring those calories out of storage. And this is the concept that's really important, because remember, just think about body fat as a storage system for calories, which is what it is, right?
Exactly.
If you don't eat, then you allow your body to release those calories, right? So if you have 10 pounds, 20 pounds of body fat, right, each pound is, you know, roughly 3,500 calories. 10 pounds, you're talking 35 1,000 calories.
I was gonna show this from this book. You remember this graph, right, Jason?
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like an 8-hour window. And that's typical.
Exactly.
Would you say, Jason, and 16 hours of fasting, right?
Yeah. Yeah. That's, that works perfectly. Yeah. Perfectly. Yeah. Yeah. Because again, it's not the calories, it's allowing your body to release the calories. Right.
Right.
Right. Just think about it this way. You know, sometimes I say, Hunger is a liar, right? And the re— the reason I say that is because people think that the hunger tells you that you need to eat, but it doesn't. If you have 10 pounds of body fat, you have 35,000 calories of stored energy. Why would you have to eat? It doesn't make sense. Why couldn't you simply release the calories and then eat the— from the stores, right? And you should be able to. But the problem is that you think that the hunger is telling you, you must eat to be, to be, to be, um, you know, good, but you could satiate it instead with protein or, you know, the minerals or the hunger. And that's the key, right? Controlling the hunger is much more important because again, it's the hunger. You got to control the hunger, not the calorie.
I love that, Jason. Let's, let's shift a little bit and lean into, so these, the number one mistake, would you say, Jason, midlife women are making with time-restricted eating? What's their number one mistake? For any of the ladies out there that are in midlife that are going through this hormonal change, what's the biggest mistake you see women doing in midlife that want to embrace an intermittent fast, you know, but they're like, they're concerned maybe. They're like, I don't know if I can, you know, just eat in an 8-hour window. What do you think their top mistake is if they're doing that and not enjoying it or missing it? What do you think it is?
I think it's just to— you gotta focus on the types of food you're eating, really. And I think that people are starting to shift, right? You're seeing a lot of this. I see this a lot, right, where middle-aged women are trying to eat more protein, right? And it's like, what's so big about the protein? Well, the protein is what's going to reduce the hunger, right? The, the, the lower estrogen levels leading to the higher levels of hunger. If you can eat more protein, you're going to release more GLP-1, which is going to battle Right. So you can take things like, you know, people try and put all this ultra-processed stuff in their bodies, like, um, uh, protein powders and stuff, but they're very artificial. And I don't— it's not clear that they actually, uh, improve weight loss as opposed to eating naturally protein-rich foods or broth, which is again a very traditional foods. Because to me, it makes more sense to eat foods that we've eaten for thousands of years, right? Because we know they work. Like there's no question. So eating enough protein is probably one of the advice, you know, big advice things. I think it's getting out there. I think a lot of people are starting to do that. But the other thing is, you know, when you finish the fast, not to sort of go overboard. So make sure you're not sort of eating excessively when you sort of eat again. And then create the habits, right? So the important thing is really the mindset and the habits. Habits. Because if you're in the habit of eating all the time, you're going to get hungry all the time, right? And that's been proven over and over again. It's called, um, it's, it's a behavioral psychology, is called conditioning, right? And conditioning was really one of these things that they did, um, you know, they, they have this bell, right? So they have dogs and they feed them, but then they pair— they ring a bell, a dinner bell, when they bring out the food. When they ring the bell, the dog would start to salivate. Right? And it's not because a bell is appetizing, right? But the bell has now been paired with the expectation of food. So you go to the modern day, and so if you go to, you know, we people eat in front of the TV, they eat in front of, in their car, in front of the movies, when they're walking on the bus, you know, in front of their computer. So everywhere they're eating, So basically you're stimulating hunger because you've paired all these different, uh, you know, um, stimuli and you're getting this conditioned response, which is the hunger, salivation and hunger and so on. Because remember, hunger starts in the mind. Yeah. So the thing about this is that you can compare that to the '70s, right? And then the '70s, you didn't eat snacks, right? If you wanted an after-school snack, your mom would say, no, you're going to ruin your dinner. If you wanted after-dinner snack, your mom would say, no, you should eat more at dinner, right? But portion control, it's like, make sure you eat where you're supposed to eat. You only ate at the table. You never ate in front of the, you know, TV, reading a book, whatever.
That's just— never in bed, never running around, never in the car. You just—
you have to pick your battles. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Makes great sense. There's no, like, uh, cup holders. There's no, you know, whatever. I mean, that's when, uh, you know, TV dinners started to take off shortly after, and I was like, wow, I can eat in front of the TV, right? But before that, no, you ate where you're supposed to eat, which is at a cafeteria or whatever it is. And guess what? Now that— now you don't have all those different associations. You never associate being in the car with eating. You never associate watching TV and eating. You never associate being in a meeting and eating, right? I mean, think about it this way, and you know, if you're in a meeting in the 1970s, if you're in the middle of a meeting and, you know, the boss is droning on and on. Like, are you really going to get up, walk out, go find yourself a cookie? No, of course not. You never do that. But now, 2025, you're sitting here, the boss is droning on and on, you're really bored, there's a plate of cookies right in front of you. It takes a lot of willpower, yeah, to not eat that cookie, right? Because again, this is boring, I'm going to give myself a little pick-me-up with, you know, a little dopamine rush. Yeah, exactly, with— because of this cookie, right? But it's not the person that's a problem, it's the environment. It's the having those cookies right there, right? That's where, you know, controlling your environment is so important. I mean, that is the third sort of type of hunger. So other than the hedonic hunger, you have this conditioned hunger. So you have to look at the habits that you create, the mindsets that you create, right? And that's what's really important, because if you losing weight is all about diet, you've probably already lost. It's about controlling your eating behavior and that can—
and what is that called again, Jason? That, that type of hunger?
Conditioned hunger. Conditioned versus, versus, versus, so homeostatic hunger is the, um, sort of physical hunger. Yeah. You know, your, your stomach is growling, you know, you're getting really hungry. That's the physi— physi— physical hunger, which is called homeostatic hunger because it's a, it's a homeostasis. Then there's the emotional hunger, which is hedonic hunger. And then there's this sort of social environmental piece, which is called conditioned hunger. So if you condition yourself, if you get in the habit of eating 8 times a day, you're going to get hungry 8 times a day. If you are used to constantly eating, you're going to want to constantly eat. If on the other hand, you only are conditioned to eating twice a day, like I only eat twice a day, that's been for many, many years for different reasons. Reasons. Sure, I actually don't get hungry more than twice a day. If I eat breakfast, I don't eat lunch. If I eat— if I don't eat breakfast, then I'll eat lunch most days, right? Um, yeah, it's okay to have that gap in between the meals.
Breakfast, skip lunch, do dinner, that's fine, right?
Exactly, that's, that's fine. But the thing is that, imagine what an advantage that is, right? Because I don't get hungry because I've, you know, I— it's not that I'm trying to not I don't want to eat because that's how I've trained myself. That's the conditioning, right? That's the conditioned hunger. Yes.
Got it.
And that's the third type. So if you go the other way where you're constantly stimulating hunger by being used to eating 8 times a day, by pairing the TV with food and the car with food and the computer with food and the office meetings with food, hey, you're done. Like, you're done. Like, you're not going to succeed. And somebody, some genius comes in and says, just eat fewer calories. It's like, okay, have they talked to you about homeostatic hunger? Uh, then the hormones. Have they talked to you about hedonic hunger and emotional eating, mindless eating and distracted eating? Have they talked about conditioned hunger? No, because if they haven't talked about any of those things, yes, zero. You're not going to get any help. And guess what? It doesn't work, right? That's the whole problem. The only reason people think it works is because all the doctors and all the medical associations say this must work 100%, it must work, but it doesn't. They were just wrong.
I have a question for women out there. I have one client who's just beautifully, like, versed in, in this methodology, but she's, she has a thyroid issue. So for women out there who may have no thyroid or thyroid problems and, and women who maybe are, you know, pre-diabetic, is there anything they need to do differently if they have a thyroid issue or going pre-diabetic? Jason, maybe address one and then the other for the ladies.
Yeah. So thyroid issues are different. Of course, the thyroid issue is more the cause of the weight gain. So low thyroid can cause cause weight gain. So you have to fix the thyroid issue. Now the interesting thing is that a lot of thyroid issues may be related to a lot of the inflammation, and the inflammation sometimes is actually helped quite a bit by, uh, fasting. Actually, fasting can sometimes cause a lot of— decrease a lot of the inflammation. So we've actually heard anecdotally a lot of times where people say, oh, my thyroid just got better, I got off all my meds. But the thyroid issue can be a a real issue in terms of the inflammation. And then the prediabetes is really on the, on the, you know, same spectrum as weight gain and so on. So those people are also going to be helped by, again, eating, you know, natural unprocessed foods, avoiding the ultra-processed foods, right? And doing the fasting, which is the most important. And then really sort of ingraining those into healthy habits, right? And that's the third our, you know, golden rule, which is, you know, maintain those healthy, uh, and social network and habits, right? And the whole point is that if you ingrain it into a healthy habit, it no longer requires willpower, right? Because think about brushing your teeth. You brush your teeth in the morning and at night. You don't think about it. You don't think, hmm, should I brush my teeth today? It's like, no, you can just go and brush your teeth. Let's do it, right? It's like, but the benefits continue to accrue. To do. So you're always getting the benefits, but you're not having to expend either any mental energy or willpower. So you've got to ingrain that into your habit, just like the twice a day. You eat twice a day, those benefits continue on and on and on, even though I'm not expending any willpower to do it, right? It was just an accidental, almost an accidental habit.
Jason, for anyone right now that's like blown away and they're like, we've heard this, they've heard it again, it's the start of the new year and they're about to make a choice— I'm just guessing because I know You know how New Year's is back in, you know, back in the '80s and '90s. Let's all get, you know, New Year's resolutions. Now, I think most of my clients, you know, I get these emails and they're like, well, I'm thinking about doing the GLP-1 injections, you know, and if they're right now at this point and it's the first part of 2026, Jason, what would you guide them? Obviously, let's assume they have 60, 100 pounds to lose. Right. And a doctor would probably say this isn't a bad thing. Should they think of a GLP-1 if they choose it as something to use to jumpstart, or is it a lifestyle? Is it something that becomes, once they get to a goal, episodically used? Is it something they should maybe only go to after maybe embracing what we've been talking about by eating a more high-protein diet? What— guide them through this right now, Jason. I'm going to pretend I'm them. What would you tell me right now if I'm at this crossroad and I'm struggling? I've been I'm just ready to pull my hair out, you know, and I'm in midlife, I'm a woman, and I'm just like, help me, Jason, what do I do?
I think that the GLP-1s can be useful, right? But what we've talked about works sort of hand in hand with that, right? So what you need to do is take that GLP-1 as a jumpstart, if you will. It's going to reduce your hunger. Okay. That's what it does. However, if you don't take this opportunity to learn how you're supposed to eat, what you're supposed to eat, and all of those things, then the minute you stop the GLP-1, you're going to gain all that weight back, which is exactly what happens, right? So if on the other hand you take this and you say, okay, now I'm going to learn, now I've got my hunger controlled with the drug, this is my sort of training wheel. Now I'm going to say, hey, how do I maximize hunger— maximize— sorry, maximize satiety to lower hunger?
How—
what is it I'm supposed to be eating? Um, then what can happen is that you can take that GLP-1, which is your sort of crutch. Then as you wean off of it, now you, you create those habits that are going to sustain you, right? Because you make your habits and then your habits make you, because those benefits continue to accrue, right? And— but the problem is that when you go and get GLP-1 What happens is that most of the time people go online to some sleazy outfit that gives you GLP-1s after a 5-minute, you know, online interview, right? That's— there's tons of those out there. They don't actually care about you. They just want to bill you for a consultation and sell their drug. And the thing is that they haven't taught you anything about how to eat, what to eat. And I think, you know, there's, there's 5 questions, right? Who, what, when, where, how. Right? If you want to be successful, you need to know the answers to all of these questions, like who, what, when, why, or how. Who should you eat with? Please.
Yeah.
So if you're thinking about eating behavior, you got to answer those questions. Who are you going to eat with? Well, you should eat with friends who support you. Why? Because if you eat with people who are always switching their french fries for side salads, you're going to do the same. If you eat with somebody who's always, you know, you know, prioritizing healthy, unprocessed foods, you're going to do the same. Like, look at California. California cuisine, fresh, local, right? You go there, all of a sudden you're like, oh, fresh, local. Okay, I'm going to eat this, right? It's because of the environment, is who you're eating with, right?
I love that.
I know this. When I eat with my family, I'm relatively healthy. I eat a lot of vegetables. I eat a lot of, you know, unprocessed meat. When I go out with my high school friends, It's a lot of pizza. It's like, it's not that good.
It's a different vibe, right?
Yeah. I'm the same person, but who you eat with makes a huge difference. Why? Because of its social modeling, right? That's— we know this. How important is it? Everybody wants to be an influencer. Why? Because social influence is so important on us. It gives us, you know, the sort of what is acceptable and good, right? So that's the who. What, what should you eat? Well, low insulin foods, unprocessed food. Who, what, when? Well, you should have a natural fasting process, right? Where you're gonna allow your body to burn off the calories that you stored. Who, what, when, where? You should really only eat at the table, right? Don't eat in the car, don't eat in front of the TV, don't eat anywhere else because then you're going to condition yourself to do this, right? You're conditioning yourself that when you eat at the, when you sit down to your computer, and you know, the last 5 times you sat down at the computer, you're eating something, you're gonna get hungry, you're gonna be like, hey, I'm missing something, let me go get myself some snacks, right? And how should you eat? Well, you should eat deliberately, mindfully, when you're focused on what you're eating and not distracted, right? So think about this— so bizarre— like, we know that to change behavior successfully, you need to answer the who, what, when, where, how. Calories, right? Because they all make a difference. Well, what's the standard advice? Eat fewer calories. Does that answer any of those questions? Zero.
Zero.
So why do you imagine that this advice is so gonna be successful? I imagine that it will be spectacularly unsuccessful. And that's what's happened, right? Because they don't understand that it's about changing your eating behavior. It's about managing hunger. It's not about the calories. Calories was just the artificial construct that got pushed by, honestly, the food companies because they wanted to equate, you know, foods by their calories so that if you drank 500 calories of soda, you could simply eat 500 fewer calories of broccoli, right? It's like, no, that's not the same thing. Or they wanted to say, oh, you can drink this Coca-Cola but then exercise. No, it's not the same thing.
And I'll be eating sugar and exercise 100 snack packs, like somehow eating less and it's only 100 calories is magical. Not so if it's all sugar, right, Jason?
No, exactly. And if you're addicted, hey, that just might be the trigger for you to eat more. It's like the diet sodas, right? It's not— the problem is that people never really lose weight.
Spend a minute on that. What do you think about that for anyone out there that has been on a diet soda? Yay or nay? And tell us why.
Oh, it's— for some people, a lot of people will be fine with it. There's some people that just don't tolerate it. It's not because of the calories, it's because of the hunger. When you drink that diet soda, you are drinking something sweet and your body is going to be expecting some food, right? When you don't get it, you're going to be hungry. And I've experienced this before. I, you know, sometimes, uh, you know, I had this diet soda and it's like before that I wasn't that hungry. Afterwards I was like, oh, I could really eat something. It's like, huh, it wasn't the calories as a problem, it's the fact that it made me more hungry. Sugary, right? And a lot of it stimulates insulin, right? Some of it stimulates insulin, especially the old aspartames and stuff. Not so much with the stevias and so on, but nevertheless, it's this whole thing. So it's like, if you think about how many people came to you and said, I just switched to diet soda, lost 30 pounds— nobody. I don't think I've ever heard that in my life. Yeah, but I've heard plenty of people say, you know, the minute I cut out the Diet Pepsis and I was pounding back 12 a day all my cravings stopped and I lost 30 pounds. Like, I hear that more, much more than the alternative, right? Because it's about the hunger, not the calories. And this is, you know, you know, in terms of The Hunger Code, it's, it's a, it's a really— I think it's a really interesting discussion into sort of the root causes. Because if you think about, you know, root causes, there's a concept in logic called the 3 Ys, which is that you have to ask the question why 3 times to get to the root sort of analysis, and then you'll get something useful. So if you say, why did the Titanic sink? And you say, because it hit an iceberg, right? It's like, okay, that's the, that's the most superficial answer, the top level. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the top level, you know, the shallowest sort of understanding. So if you're to say, how do you avoid future disasters? You'd say, don't hit icebergs. It's like, that's not useful advice, right? That's just not Yeah, so you say, well, why did the Titanic hit the iceberg? Well, because the captain couldn't avoid it in time, right? Then you say, well, why couldn't the doctor— couldn't the captain avoid it in time? It's because it was going too fast.
Too fast.
So the answer is, why did the Titanic sink? Because it was going too fast. In the future, the lesson: slow down. Right, same thing if your car flies off the road on an icy road. Why? Well, because, you know, the force of, you know, my— the force going out was greater than the force going in. Well, obviously that's like the calories in, calories out, right? It's a superficial argument. The reason is because it's icy and you're going too fast, which means slow down, right? Same thing with calories in, calories out. Why do you gain weight? Well, you gain weight because calories in is greater than calories out. So eat fewer calories, right? That's the don't hit icebergs. That's, that's the level of shallow don't hit icebergs advice. That's simply it, which is true but useless, right? So you have to go into the third level of reasoning, right? So why is calories in greater than calories out? That's the question. And it's like, because you're hungry. That's the answer, right? Bingo, bingo, bingo. You got to control that hunger. Then you can go one level deeper, which is why are you hungry? And that's where it gets even more interesting, which is that there's homeostatic hunger, which is all the hormones we talked about. There's the hedonic hunger, which goes into dopamine spikes, food addictions, and ultra-processed foods. And there's conditioned hunger, which is the socio— the social environment, like your friends, right? And the environment that we're in, like, do you live in California versus Kentucky? Because you know what, it makes a huge difference to your weight if you live in California.
Wait a second, people are going to be thinking you're crazy, Jason. The location of where I live impacts my weight? Tell us why, Jason, because I, I get it.
Yeah, because the, the— what you're surrounded with is the messaging that this is how you should eat, this is what you should eat. There's so many experiments. So if you take military families and you move them from one base to another and when you— they go to an area where there's higher obesity rates, they're more likely to become obese, right? If you also have these studies where they say if your friend gains weight, if your friend, uh, becomes obese, your own risk of obesity goes up by 171% because of the social influence that your friend has on you. That is, if your friend is always, um, you going out and hiking. Yeah, you're gonna go out and hike. If your friend is always just sitting and eating or going to the bar, you're gonna go to the bar. If your friend is always eating french fries, you are eating french fries. If your friend is always eating healthy, you know, natural grains and, you know, uh, fasting, you're gonna do it. I mean, wow, I can't tell you how many people— yeah, yeah, the impact, it's the social impact, because You model your own behavior on other people. So, you know, when people are fasting, it's like, get yourself a group. Like The Fasting Method, we put together people in a group and it's like, uh, you know, I have friends who fast for, you know, 5 days in a row and I do it, right? Then when they don't do it, I don't do it, right? It's, it's, it's, it's natural. That's human nature. So where you live is actually more important for your weight than who you are. Wow, that's just reality, right? And that's why you have to understand these things. It's not like calories, calories, calories, because none of the, you know, those calories things doesn't answer any of the questions. That shallow first-order thinking, you're not getting into the deeper reasons of understanding weight. Like, is it a social problem? Why? Because look, you can take a Japanese person in Japan and their risk of obesity is very low. Take the same person, plop them in the United United States. And guess what? Their risk of obesity shoots up within 2 generations. It's the same as a native-born American, right? It's like crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. It's like, you know, even by 1991, there's a study— quadruple the California— the Japanese in California had a quadruple risk, the risk of obesity as a Japanese person in Japan, right? Why? Because the environment. And we never talk about this, right?
All this—
never talk about calories.
The first time you and I've talked about it, even to some degree. This is incredible.
It's actually a huge, huge issue, right? It's like you look at now, it's like, look, people are talking about ultra-processed foods now. Yeah. People are talking about microplastics. Well, guess what? Now that people are talking about it, everybody's paying attention to it. We're trying to get rid of seed oils. We're trying to get rid of ultra-processed foods. We're trying to have less plastics, right? Microplastics is this big, you know, actually really important topic. Yeah. You know, this accumulation of plastic in our bodies, which is probably not very good. Good for us. But now that you pay attention to it, now, you know, you see what the difference is. In Japan, they talk about nutrition all through grade school. We don't talk about it ever other than calories.
I know.
There they talk about eating their vegetables and, you know, you know, interesting, but they actually even talk about mindful eating, right? They're like, oh, you shouldn't eat until you're too full. Make sure you stop when you're 80% full because then by the time you finish, you'll be just the right, Does anybody in school ever talk about that? If we don't, why not?
Yeah.
Right. Because we paid a little more attention to it.
And less in medical school for the people that are even less becoming the, if you will, the, the role models for everyone. Jason, last question and then we'll wrap up. I think this has been fabulous and I want to mention the new book and all that at the end here and then we'll have you back on later this year to talk about when that launches and we'll talk about that in a sec. End on this for me, Jason, because I'm just thinking right now, I've met many well-known celebrities and, and I'm working with a few here and there and right now. And I can tell you this, some of them right now are at a point where the GLP-1 injections have worked brilliantly, right? They've done some work on leaning into protein. They're trying to exercise, but they, but this is, here's the situation. They have no plan to wean themselves off GLP-1. They actually, if they, if you were to tell them right now, Whoever this person is, I'm not going to give a name, say, all right, you're at your goal weight. We're going to wean you off this in 3 months, or let alone by next year this time, you're not going to even use the GLP-1. They would say, hell no, I'm never coming off of this thing. Now, what is that called? And, and is that safe? Because these medications, you tell us they were designed to jumpstart. But if someone has no game plan and they've gotten to their goal using an injection, you've told us what to do while they're doing it. But say they haven't done it to that degree and more importantly, they don't want to stop.
Yeah.
What would you tell someone to help them understand that maybe this is something they have to consider? Is, is a, is an off-ramp? Is that what do we call this, Jason? Right. Yeah.
I think it's just a, it's, I think it's just a matter of trying to understand how to manage manage your hunger, right? That's really what The Hunger Code is about, right? Is it the proteins? Is it your environment? Is it the, you know, if you're lacking for something, is it the food addictions? Are you lacking the dopamine? Then do something else, right? Find something else that is enjoyable for you. So basically trying to find out how you're going to manage it off of the medication now, because you've been using the medication as that crutch to sort of control the hunger. Now you have to try and understand the hunger, lean into the hunger, and understand what's causing your hunger. Is it hedonic hunger? Maybe the problem isn't your hormones and all the things that are messing you up. Maybe it's the emotional eating, right? It's the emotional eating, the hedonic hunger. Maybe it's the environment, maybe it's the thing, but you have to understand it so that you can identify it, right? And you know, if you stay on it, there's always going to be risk, right? There's several risks. We talked about the loss of protein, right? Loss of muscle. And maybe because people tend not to eat so much protein, and that's gonna, that's going to be a big thing as you get older, right? People talk about the GI issues, so you can get the nausea, vomiting, but you can actually get worse than that. You can get like, you know, paralysis of the colon and so on. So some very bad things. They've recently talked about the loss of vision, which I actually saw a patient who said that they had to come off because their vision actually deteriorated significantly. So that's a new one that's come out, is a rare side effect. But then there's the Ozempic phase that people about. So the ozempic face is actually a very, very interesting phenomenon, and I did a video about it, a YouTube video about it, because it's actually really, really interesting because there's two types of fat.
We'll put the link in the show notes, we'll add the link to your YouTube video. Perfect.
Sure. Yeah, it's super interesting because that was not expected, right? So people think you just eat less, you're gonna lose fat, you're gonna lose fat where you want to, but then you actually wind up losing fat where you don't want to, which is from your face. So people feel they look very gaunt, they're wrinkly. So it really looks awful. And there's circulating pictures of all kinds of people, celebrities with ozempic, right? It's actually quite obvious because sometimes I look at people and I'm like, blah, you really got ozempic face. It's terrible. And it's because there's two types of fat. There's the fat that's in the underneath underneath the skin, which is not bad fat, it's actually not dangerous. And there's the fat that you carry around the midsection and in your organs, which is the visceral fat, which is very dangerous. So when you're doing fasting, the fasting actually targets your visceral fat much more, right? The belly fat, if you will. Yeah. Because it's right there. So if your liver is carrying a lot of fat and you're fasting and you need to release some of the stored calories, you're gonna release it from your liver because it's right there. The fat that's underneath the skin is actually the good fat because, you know, it sort of plumps out the skin. You're less wrinkly, right? You don't get that gone, you know, hollowed look, right? So the problem is that when people get this ozempic face and they don't eat properly, then they're eating a lot of, you know, mini meals or eating a lot of refined carbohydrates and stuff. They wind up losing that, that subcutaneous fat as opposed to the visceral fat. And the risk goes up as you, you know, get— you know, if you're very overweight, then it's not much of a risk. But if you're, you know, only trying to lose a few pounds, then the risk is very high that you're actually going to pull the fat out of your face, and that's what gives you the Ozempic face. I mean, yeah, it's not a medical definition because it's really about the partitioning, how the, how the fat is distributed, but it's actually obvious that it's a real phenomenon. You just have to look around and you'll see all kinds of examples. Like, it's, it's quite stunning, um, some of the people on it anyway. So there's always those risks, right? So it's like, if you spend a little bit of time, get away from— like, I think people have been so fixated on calories for so long, they've stopped talking about the what types of foods, the quality of their foods, right? The how they eat, what they're supposed to eat, how they're supposed to eat, where they're supposed to eat, who they're supposed to eat with, right? None of that. None of that, right? I mean, you think about it, this, like, you know, if you ask your grandmother sort of thing, right, she'd be perplexed to see people in a restaurant eating by themselves, right? 20 years ago, it was odd. Now you see it all the time, right? You really shouldn't be doing that. Why? Because when you're eating by yourself, what you're probably doing is on your phone looking at something. You've got distracted eating. You don't even know what you're eating. You don't even know if you're full. You're not even enjoying that. You're just eating it, right? So you see all these people, you know, eating by themselves in the restaurant and sure, they're fine, right? It's like, well, that's probably not the best thing for you. If you have to, like you're on a business trip and there's nothing, that's fine. Sure. But don't make it a habit because that's your social connection, right?
Family, having that partner in your life, having a friend in your life, making social activities important, right, Jason? Making that a dopamine activity rather than just the carbohydrates.
I think, yeah. And I think the Yeah, there's two sort of big things, right? One is the rise of the screen sort of thing, right? With the iPhone and stuff. And then the second thing, which was a big nail in the coffin, was sort of COVID where everybody's like, stay home, stay home, stay home, right? So then that social connection got severed, like heavily, right? Right. You already were going that way with the social, you know, with the screens and all that. Everybody, you know how it is, right? You'll see two people at a restaurant and they'll be both on their screens, right? It's like, okay, well, that's not short of the point of getting out to grab a meal together. But yeah, you know, it is— you see that a lot these days and, you know, you should try to avoid it if you can.
So to recap everything, Jason, if someone is considering a GLP-1, use it as a tool to give you a jumpstart. But while you're doing it, learn other ways, foods you can eat that are rich in protein, right? Healthy fats. And learn to reengage with social activities, learn to find other ways to produce a dopamine spike, which is good. We need that. But it can be a conversation with a friend. It could be exercise, sleeping again, just all these activities. And if someone is stuck on not wanting to get off of GLP-1 and their doctors are like, oh no, no, it'll be okay. Really reevaluate that, right, Jason? Because it's meant to be, uh, even episodically, it could be okay. Like use it one month, one month off, but not not, it shouldn't be that you're in, like if you're 40, 50, or 60, this isn't a medication you take for the next 30 years, is it Jason?
Ideally not. I mean, you know, obviously there are some benefits to using it, so there's definitely some people who might need to do that.
Okay.
Right. But in an ideal situation, then you wouldn't, right? And that's, that's the whole thing. Like everything, you know, I don't want to give blanket advice because it's more like, you know, you gotta individualize it, right? Because there's a lot of individual circumstances. But yeah, absolutely. I think that the best thing is, you know, sort of that it gives us a tool to use for hunger management. It gives us a paradigm to think about, right? Which is that, hey, you gotta manage the hunger, not the calories, right? Because there are ways to manage calories. You could do a Lap-Band, right? That's the old bariatric procedure. Nobody does that anymore. The number of bariatric procedures that have been gone on in the US have plummeted. Nobody does them. Why? They didn't work. As people went on and on, they realized that, hey, people are regaining that weight and more. Why? Because you could restrict their calories, but then they'll find ways to get around it. But when you restrict the hunger, they don't want to take those calories. Sure. Right. Sure. So you got to— it gives us a good paradigm to go off off of and really to say that, hey, let's focus on where, where, where the, uh, money is going to be, which is focusing on managing the hunger, whether it's with a broth and proteins and, uh, or learning about it, like emotional eating and distracted eating and all those cues that give us the hunger.
Amazing. Now, Jason, let's tease everyone briefly. This is my version of it. It's a galley version, which is for folks like myself But this book is available for presale here in January already. Tell everyone when your next book, when this one's coming out, and obviously we're gonna do a deep dive on this when it comes out, but give everyone the details on the official new book, Jason. Uh, it's available for presale now, correct? On Amazon. Yeah, everyone.
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And, and it's, um, called The Hunger Code. So it takes off, is really a, um, sort of a sequel, if you will, a continuation of the discussion from The Obesity Code. Which is that you gotta go beyond the calories. That talks more about the hunger. This goes— sorry, that talks more about the hormones. This goes more into the hormones. So not just insulin cortisol, but also into GLP-1, sympathetic tone, and a lot of these other interesting, interesting topics, resistant starch. Um, but then goes into that sort of— that's the homeostatic, the physical hunger, but then the emotional hunger and also the social hunger, which is the Technically, it's homeostatic, hedonic, and conditioned, right? Because there's a lot of evidence. It's such an important topic that nobody discusses, like, ever. I mean, I've read a lot of diet books and nobody touches stuff like this when it's, like, so important and obviously important if, you know, the whole idea is that you need to understand what is driving all of this, and it's really the hunger. So that's what the book is about. We'll go deeper into that and then—
Oh, I love that.
Pre-order if you can. There's going to also be some, um, you know, I know the publisher's putting together this gift with purchase. Oh, fantastic. That's going to be available for everybody.
So you share the link with us and we'll add it to the show notes, please.
Yeah, I don't know when exactly they'll have it, but even if you pre-order it, you'll be able to register on my website for it. So I know that they're going to give, give out some, I think a coupon for the bone broth, but also a masterclass. Uh, yeah, masterclass, uh, sometime in March, which is going to be like like a week-long sort of course going through all the themes of The Hunger Code. So normally it's like, you know, it's normally like a $500 course, and we're just going to give it away for free.
And that'll be in March. And give us the date the book releases again, Jason.
What date is March 3rd? And I think for all pre-orders, and if you order sort of before the masterclass starts sort of mid-March, then, you know, we're gonna hopefully be able to sort of take everybody because there'll be new information. So we're just going to try get together.
We'll have some—
I'll be doing some, some webinars, some Q&As and answering questions. We've got our coaches on and we've got a discussion community and all that, you know, all with pre-order of the book. It's, uh, that's great. Yeah, it'll be really, really good.
And, and if people ever want to work with you directly, I know you still work with certain clients in Toronto, Canada. What's the best way for people to get in touch with you directly, Jason? Online?
Online is probably the easiest. You can go to my website, or, um, you know, I'm on, I'm on social media.
What's What's the URL and the social? What's the best website?
Uh, the website is Dr. Jason Fung. It's D-O-C-T-O-R, drjasonfung.com. And I think there's a contact, uh, info there. Um, or just, you know, on Twitter, you know, it's a doctor, that's Dr. Jason Fung. So they can contact me there. And, uh, yeah, you can check my social, um, media, my YouTube. I often put out a lot of videos on various aspects.
You have a massive YouTube audience, and we'll put all that in the show notes for the show right out here. So I can't think of a better way to have spent the new year with you, Jason. I feel like I'm inspired right now to even be more aware of when I eat, who or who I don't eat with, you know. And for some reason, I always used to think— I'm just going to be honest, I'll end with an honest, like, epiphany I had during this conversation— that because, you know, because obviously this was my first book on intermittent fasting. But remember this chart here? I love that you shared— this is my takeaway that you can have a breakfast, maybe skip a lunch, and then do a dinner. Still 2 meals, and it still doesn't have to be back to back, right, Jason? Just so you're aware of that and you keep that schedule, right, Jason?
Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's the idea that, you know, that fasting is, is flexible, right? And also when you build those habits, like if you're only eating 2 meals a day, you know, then you can play around with it and you're still gonna get the benefits of it, right? Because if I wind up eating a big breakfast Well, then I just skip my lunch and that's it. And I don't feel it, right? Because I'm not used to eating 3 meals a day anymore. But that benefit continues, you know, continues on and on the longer I keep it.
Well, I can't tell you how grateful I am for always your time, Jason, and for your friendship over all these years. And I can't wait for us to connect this year as well with your new book here in San Diego. So it'll be great, guys. Pre-order this, guys, The Hunger Code. It'll be out March 3rd. And Jason, thank you so much for sharing. Bringing this incredible, uh, bone broth as well with us, which I'm gonna try right away. This is amazing. And 12 grams of protein per serving, right, Jason?
Yeah, 12 grams of protein and really nothing else. No carbs, no fat and stuff. It's instant. And, you know, like you said, you're not getting any of the other stuff. Like sometimes you just— there's a, you know, huge list of chemicals in this stuff, right?
Beautiful.
Yeah, this is like one ingredient. Again, like chicken bones.
Simple and elegant, and no 16 hours of boiling bones, which saves us sometimes. That, that's the benefit of this, this era we live in. But obviously having your, your wisdom is so important, Jason. So thank you again, my friend, for, for all that you're doing. And please, guys, follow Jason on social. Everything's in the, in the show notes. And Jason, we'll see you in a couple months.
All right. Yeah, yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
Very good. All right, Jason, thanks again. Peace and purpose.
Thanks.
All Thank you, Jason. Perfect.
I've been gripping the wheel too tight, thinking I could outrun fate. Get lost in a perfect life, manhood built on armor plates. Had the world in designer bags, still the soul was overdrafted. Sold the watches just to breathe, 'cause success was all distractions. Tonight I let God drive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tonight I let God drive. 54, but I'm waking up. First time living is who I am. Lost some blood, broke some trust. Paid the price for a second chance, but my health came back and my love came strong. And the past don't own me now. Guess a man can The soul is alive tonight. I let go and try.
