A Life of Resilience and Justice: A Conversation with Norman Shabel

Welcome to the Living to 100 Club Podcast. Here's our host, Dr. Joseph Casciani.

Well, hello to all of our listeners joining us today on our podcast. You're listening to one of our Successful Aging episodes this month on the Living to 100 Club program, and I'm your host, Joe Casciani. On each program, our conversations educate and inspire, helping you get the best out of all the years we're given. Regardless of what obstacles come our way. You can learn more about my club at my website. Be sure to take a look at my new training and activities manual, Better, Longer and Happier: A Guide to Aging with Purpose and Positivity. It's a series of 12 modules in a card deck format developed for activities directors at senior living communities. To learn more, visit my website livingto100.club/blh. Now on to our podcast. In today's podcast episode, we sit down with Norman Chabell, an accomplished attorney and author, to delve into his fascinating life story and career. Norman, who is 87 years old, shares his journey from Brownsville, Brooklyn to Florida, touching on his roles as a prosecutor in New York, an attorney in New Jersey, and a passionate writer. The conversation explores themes of resilience, justice, and the importance of living a fulfilling life. First, a little background. Norman Chabel is the author of 8 novels praised by Judge Andrew Napolitano as terrific, fast-paced reads about the dark side of law enforcement and the judiciary. Many of his stories are inspired by his 55-year career as a plaintiff's attorney and prosecutor, where he witnessed injustice and oppression on a daily basis. Others draw on his experiences of Jewish family life and his astute observations of its unique, often hilarious dynamics. His novels include The Aleph-Bet Conspiracy, Four Women, and The Badger Game. Also a prolific playwright, Shabel has written 7 plays, 3 of which have been produced off-Broadway in New York City, Philadelphia, and Florida to rave reviews. Among them are A Class Act, Marty's Back in Town, and Are the Lights Still on in Paris? Born in Brooklyn, New York, Norman is retired from law and splits his time between New Jersey and Florida. He finds much joy spending time with his adult children and his grandchildren. Norman, welcome to our program today.

Thank you for having me.

Oh, you're very welcome. I'm looking forward to our conversation. I always like to open by asking my guests to tell us about the journey that brought you to where you are today. I touched on a lot of it in your, your bio, but what are the highlights that brought you to where you are today?

Well, I, I was born up in a place called Brownsville, Brooklyn, New Jersey. And the— sorry, not in New York. I mix sometimes New York with New Jersey. Anyway, my parents were extremely poor. They were on welfare. My father got hit in the head with a metal when he was working for the Navy Yard, and ever since then, he was not the same anymore. My mother was something of another world. She raised 3 children so amiably and getting out so much. It's amazing, since she got married at 14 years old and didn't go through any kind of schooling in America at all. And she survived with, with the, with the, with all the shrills that New York City in those days gave out. She was one who, notwithstanding she didn't understand much of what's being done in front of her, she would go out and she would take the project in her hand and do what has to be done to make it go.

Yeah.

She was a wonderful woman.

Yeah. Determined, independent, forceful, very competent, sounds like. Yeah. So what prompted you to pursue a career in law and how did this decision affect your career as a lawyer?

Well, I've practiced law a good two-thirds of my life. I always felt that I should put down on paper what I was doing with all my clients and with the people I dealt with, because I felt I was learning and giving out information which I think the world should understand and should have when I pass away. So I've published, written and published the 8 novels which encompass almost all of my 55 years of practicing law.

Wow.

The one good thing about my novels, which is not usual in in most novels, novelist novels, is that I explain to the reader what's happening in his or her world. What's happening when you go to a lawyer, what's happening when you do something. All these things are prescribed in my books.

So you take the time to clarify, explain what's going on for each of your characters.

That's correct.

The reader really understands kind of the background or what's motivating their— what's going on. Yeah. So how did you, um, how did you happen to put, you know, kind of your legal career into your novels? What prompted you to bring some of those themes into your stories, your books, and your plays?

Well, throughout my entire life, I have, uh, been confronted with the law, whether I was a young, a young teenager in Brooklyn or going to college, playing basketball for about 5 years in college. Eventually, I made All-American. But, and obviously also because of the poverty, I withstood all my years. And being poverty-ridden doesn't give you any kind of hopeful situation. I went into the law because I found that the law can bring me such joy which the world is not giving me. As a poor, a poor student, individual in Brownsville, Brooklyn.

Sure, sure. So growing up with your background, seeing a lot of poverty, you found some ways to bring some positivity into your world with your legal career, with your, with your profession. You found ways to offer some inspiration and hope, not only to yourself, but to your clients too, I'm sure. Yeah. Interesting.

Well, one thing I was always enamored with is women.

Yeah.

Well, that's funny, but as a young pimply teenager, I was always shunned by women and I always felt bad about it. And when my face cleared up, suddenly the women took note of me. But I've always found, my sister, my mother, of course, my aunts, I've always was enamored with how women actually got into the world without being killed. I mean, they were subjected to rape, they were subjected to people throwing stones at them, and yet the women I have been with and how they withstood all this and came out like a rose, it always enamored me. And that's why I've written a couple, few of the books that deal strictly with women, including Four Women.

Huh, interesting. So the survivability of women and being vulnerable and kind of, um, taken advantage of, and you saw a lot of that. So that was, uh, that left its mark on you too, where you could create characters in your books probably reflecting a lot of these triumphs for women.

Yeah. Yes.

Can you share, can you share some of your, your, your works and the characters you've created? Tell us about some of the characters.

Well, one very good book is Four Women. Which, which it actually deals with 4 women in Miami, Florida. Um, a, a, uh, ex-Nazi German who comes to America to be a builder, kind of goes to Florida, and he plans to extricate— take these people out of their apartments so he can put up a large, uh, uh, a large house for wealthy people. And in the book, I show the strength of these women, notwithstanding they have lawyers who say, do this, but the women said, it's not for me, I'm going to do this. I find that women have a certain definition of what's— what this— what this world is all about. Now, taking advantage of a woman's particularly physiognomies. They have breasts, they have vaginas, they have all these things, and they have to make sure that these stay in one place. Sure, protected. And you have, of course, us men going after those beautiful things that make the men want to love in these women. Yeah, I always find it, it's a tremendous feeling when I deal with my mother, when I dealt with my sister, I dealt with all my wife and other, other women also, the strength that they showed and it's, and their viability of taking the good and the bad and coming out with the right, with the right thing.

Wow. Okay. So even though they might be vulnerable, they, in fact, they're not so vulnerable. They know how to protect each other and take care of themselves and not be taken advantage of.

Yeah. I totally agree with you. I think God said to women, I'm going to make you beautiful. But the one thing he didn't say, you better protect your beauty Or else it's, it's going to be gone.

Yeah. Well, so your mother had a strong influence on you, I'm sure, and how, how to stand up to, um, you know, challenge and injustice. And did, did, did you bring some of those lessons into your, into your work, into your, into your books, and how to stand up to, um, even in, in in your career as an attorney, how to stand up to injustice, how to fight for what's right?

Well, I, like any other lawyer, learned the hard way which— where I should put my feet, where I should put my tongue, where I should put my lips. Particularly when you're dealing with law, you're dealing with many people different types of people, different laws, different things that have occurred in presenting the law in front of you and your client. I always had a feeling that a good lawyer must listen to everybody. Good, bad, indifferent, and come up with his own decision of how he should help his client win the case. And that's, that's what I've been trying to do. I listen much of what is being given to me from both sides. Yeah. Notwithstanding that I only represent one side, but I wanna make sure that what I'm giving my client is not just a bunch of bull. I'm telling him or her what to expect and to realize what he's done or not done.

Yeah.

And what kind of opening or what kind of reality we should expect.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So listening is the key to that, being able to advise your client based on what you've learned, what you've heard. And then you can provide the best legal help, I take it.

Yeah, that's correct.

I like that expression, you learn the hard way where to put your feet, your tongue, and your lips. I never heard that expression. I think that's, that's a good way to put it, knowing where you are in the world and where to make your presence known and when to speak and act and when not to speak and act. I, I like that. Yeah. Yeah. So you're 87 years old, Norman. I, I, you know, I think it's great and I, I love to talk about successful aging and staying positive and making it over the bump. So what do you think's contributed to your aging so well? What's, what's, what's been part of that?

Well, when I was young, I was a writer. I'm not a good writer, but a writer. And as I got older, I got better and better in my writing. And then when I became a lawyer and I was utilizing all my thoughts and spirits and abilities for my clients and also for myself, I wanted to learn the right way to win.

Hmm.

It's like playing basketball, which I did many, many years. There's a way to play basketball to win. And the same thing in practicing law is you have to understand not only what your client is telling you, you have to understand what the other side is telling you. And you have to come up with a conclusion that's acceptable in this world of ours. Because notwithstanding, you can be a very good lawyer, but you can be a loser also. You always have to listen, listen, listen. And if you don't listen, you're a loser. Yeah.

So always processing, digesting this information, sharing it with your clients. But how does that— I'm just curious, how— what's contributed to your being so, so positive in your, in your 80s, in your late 80s? What's, what's contributed to this mindset?

Um, you know, well, years ago I, I got into I got into the field of writing. I started to write books, started to write plays. So in these late years of ours, I've been very happy with the 8 books I've written and the 7 plays I've written. I've, I've joyed myself in getting these things in front of the American public.

Okay.

Not only the American public, the British public also.

Yeah.

Okay. I get a great feel that when people say, you know, Norman, you have a point there. That really makes you feel very good.

Yeah.

All these years you've had and you think I'm doing the right thing and suddenly somebody says, You're right.

Yeah, you make an impact, you have an impact on people. So it sounds like, um, a lot of your longevity is just based on your sense of accomplishment, maybe your— the writings, your contributions, and really having an impact on, on readers. I think that's, that's very powerful that, um, you have these kind of, um, this sense of gratitude for what you've accomplished and feeling good about yourself for that. Yeah.

Yeah. Especially when you get older.

Sure.

I mean, you know, I'm 87 years old and physically I no longer can take a jump shot from 25 feet out. But what I can do is talk about my books and talk about the situations my books are revealing to the public. I feel very good when somebody says, you know, I never thought of that. That's a great thing you just put in. Yeah.

Yeah.

It gives me the same thing as well as putting a 3 basket shot from the left corner. Yeah.

Okay. It's a little different, but it just is meaningful for you.

Yeah.

So how do you face challenges and difficulties, stresses? What, Where does resilience come into your world? How do you deal with these challenges?

Well, the good thing about it is I have a lot of good people around me and my plays have been well received. My books have been well received and it gives me a great deal of joy that the years I put into these these books and plays have been well received. I want to leave this world with them saying, you know, Norman Chabel had a thought. I believe he thought the right way. So I want to leave that. Obviously, I'm not going to live forever. I'm not going to live another 15, 20 years. But whatever I do, I want to leave the thinking of what I have learned to the world in front of me.

Sure. Yeah, to have that impact, as we said, to, you know, leave others with the impression that you made some good points in your work. I mean, who's to say you can't do another book or, you know, another play or two, right?

We don't know that. But it's— I have so many. I have 7 plays which are doing very well. Yeah, I have, um, uh, at the present time, the JCC in Aventura, uh, putting on 4 of my plays.

Wow.

Next, uh, oh, a year, year and a half, a year, one year or two. And, uh, another area is putting in another possibly another 3 of my plays. So I may have a good 5, 6 plays out there at the same time.

Wow, that's good. That's good. That's many more than a lot of writers, I take it.

Yeah, it's very true. And the thing is, they're not, the developers are not taking my, my, my, my, my, my plays and using it for their own good. They're doing the same thing I'm doing, trying to show the world what the world really is about.

Yeah, to tell a story. That's right, to tell a story. Sure. So what advice would you give to others about staying persistent and resilient and productive, that might be too strong, but what advice would you give to others to, you know, as they're looking at their years ahead, how for them to stay connected and engaged? What advice do you have?

Well, I strongly believe that if you want to enjoy your life to the years that I've had, the 75, 80, 85 years, is as you're going along from the age of 5 and 10 and 20, 25, find out areas that you wanna be in, you wanna learn about. Talk to people who have something to say so you can learn from these people. Start putting down on paper your thoughts. They can start with a, a thought saying that I saw this guy yesterday and this is what he said. Or saying I was involved in a strong problem like in Israel, for one. You know, you should, as an individual, as an intelligent individual, should learn what's all This Israeli issue is all about why are these people killing other people? Why are these people not trying to settle all this? That, that, that irks the hell out of me that these things can be resolved peacefully because the world is so crooked as it is. And we should all try to get the world in a peaceful manner where you live your life at 87 years old and can smile saying, I had a good life.

Sure. Yeah. So to be curious, to really dig and try to understand what's going on and even, you know, making some journal, creating some writings of, of our own and keeping track of how this is affecting us, what we're learning when we talk to other people. Yeah, yeah, you're right. There are a lot of questions. We just don't understand what, what's going on and what's driving a lot of this strife and tension and, and war. And, um, we do need to listen and, uh, try to understand, right?

Yeah, that's exactly right.

Yeah. So what are your plans for your future?

It's great that you have— you have this word future out to an 87-year-old. Oh, of course.

Well, I talk about living to 100, so you got a, you got a few years.

I'm having problems with my legs, so if I get that, if I get that rectified, I'd be extremely happy. Well, just that I, I want to see my books and plays out there. I want to see people listening and deciding that, you know, This, that Che Bell had a pretty good, pretty good thought about it, you know, to pat me on the back of what I've been trying to prove all these 87 years.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's the, uh, that's the affirmation for you. That's, that's the feeling of success, right? You've reached people and you've had an impact on them. And like we said, that, uh, they acknowledge you did have some Good things to say, some important messages. Yeah, I love that. Sure. So how can our listeners learn more about your work and contact you? What's your website?

Um, my website is, um, is it normanshabel.net? Yeah, normanshabel.com.

Okay, normanshabel.net. And people can find your books there, your plays. They can, if they're interested, if they happen to have a theater where they'd like to promote your plays, they can come.

Most of my plays right now are in Florida.

Yeah, yeah.

I have, uh, um, 4, 4 of the plays will be, uh, at the JCC in Aventura, uh, starting in, um, uh, was it, I think, November December. Okay. And I have them also in south of Florida also. I'm talking about two more of my plays. So I have six plays actually working out there. Wow. Books? Well, you can get my books through Amazon. Very easily at all, you know. Uh, uh, I, I really think even— I hate to hit myself on the back, but even if I really read my books, I say to myself, who the hell wrote this book? It's so common today of what I put into the books. Yeah, I don't mean to be beyond my, my ear, but I read a lot of books and I've reread a lot of my own books. I find that not only did I tell a story, I also told a thinking that should be followed in and get this world of ours together without killing each other.

Sure. Yeah, always trying to understand, always trying to dig and and learn and share what you've learned with, with your readers. Yeah, so, um, with all the books and plays, your books are available on your website. People can go there, they can buy them on Amazon, but if they're looking for a list of them, they're on your website, normanshaebel.net. Okay, well, uh, you know, gold stars to you, Norman, for all you've done, and I think for what you're going to continue to do. And you, you know, who knows Who knows, we look and find more strength and more determination, and you might find another book or two under your belt.

Maybe. I'd be overjoyed. Yeah. Well, thank you very much for this, and I'd love to send one of my better books to you.

So that'd be great. I'd love to do that. I'd love to see it. Yeah. Well, it looks like we're out of time, but before we wrap up, I just want to remind my listeners to visit my website, livingto100.club, sign up for my email list, and download a free copy of my 9 Tips to Make Living Longer Enjoyable. And if you're affiliated with a senior living setting, be sure to look for my new training manual, Better, Longer, and Happier. Norman, thanks so much for being a guest on our show today. And again, your website is normanschaebel.net. It's been a delight talking with you, and Thank you for your time.

Well, thank you for your time. Yeah. Really a pleasure.

Great. You're very welcome. And thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in. Hope to see you next time.