A Passion for More: Why the Rise in Extramarital Affairs among Women?

Hello and welcome to the Living to 100 Club podcast and another premium episode. Thanks to all of our dedicated listeners for tuning in. I'm your host, Dr. Joe Casciani, and here's today's episode. Well, hello to everyone joining us today on our program. You're listening to one of the premium podcasts on the Living to 100 Club, and I am your host, Joe Casciani. Each week, our conversations educate and inspire helping you get the best out of all the years we are given, regardless of what obstacles come our way. Premium subscribers have access to all episodes, including 2 exclusive episodes per month. Thank you for being a subscriber. Your support allows us to continue this mission without sponsors. We hope you are receiving value from every conversation with our experts, presumably much greater value than the price of a subscription. Today's program will be a conversation about the increasing incidence of extramarital affairs of older women. Our guest, Susan Shapiro-Berrish, has spent 30 years, over 30 years, researching the types of affairs that women have and is finding an exponential rise in female infidelity. We discuss some of the reasons why these affairs are on the rise including greater longevity, increased autonomy, and feelings of entitlement and empowerment that was once the sole territory of men. Also discussed are the latest statistics on female infidelity, such as what percentage of women will engage in an affair, how many say their lover is the opposite of their husband, how many leave their marriages versus how many end up with their lover, and importantly, We'll discuss what our guest has learned about the different types of affairs among women. First, a little background. Susan Shapiro Baresh is an American author of 13 nonfiction women's issues books, including Tripping the Prom Queen, Toxic Friends, and You're Grounded Forever, But First Let's Go Shopping. She writes fiction under her pen name Susan Maren, and her novels are Between the Tides, A Palm Beach Wife, and A Palm Beach Scandal. Susan's books focus on the gender divide, how women are positioned in society, and their innermost feelings about themselves as daughters, mothers, sisters, friends, wives, mothers-in-law, daughters-in-law, rivals, colleagues, and lovers. Susan, welcome to our program. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Thank you so much, Joe, for inviting me on. It's really nice to be here.

Great, great. Yeah, you're welcome. So I always like to open by asking our guests to tell us a little bit about the journey that brought you to where you are today.

Well, I grew up on the Jersey Shore. I come from a traditional family. I watched my mother and my aunts growing up in the '60s, and I thought, wow, they seem so much more powerful and aware than they let on, and they seem really relegated to these roles. And so from an early age, my mentors were kind of showing me what they could and couldn't have. And I remember saying, nope, I will not be like that. I will do more. And I've long been intrigued by the faces women wear versus how they truly feel. About themselves, about their families, about their marriages, friendships, roles as mothers-in-law, daughters-in-law, wives, rivals. And that's been my life's research. A Passion for More, my study on female infidelity, was my first nonfiction book, and it's been reissued twice. And this new edition is very significant because, as you mentioned, I've found some new stats. But in terms of the journey, I was someone who chose Sarah Lawrence as a place to study when Gerda Lerner was starting women's studies and she was teaching there. And I was in the writing program and I earned my graduate degree at NYU. And I have taught for over 20 years at Marymount Manhattan College in the writing department where my topic has been gender. And so I've long been interested in the positioning of women, as you said, in society.

Well, that's quite a ride. You've, you've done a lot of writing, obviously, of 13 books, as I mentioned, non-fiction books. So you've written about women's issues mostly over the 3 decades. So what have you learned? I always like to ask this question: what have you learned about the human condition from this work?

Well, you know, we live, we live and we will die in a patriarchy. And in a patriarchy, there's male supremacy. And until there's truly equal pay for equal work, despite the great gains that women have made in terms of their chances at work, their options at work— there are more women in undergrad and graduate programs in America than ever before, and more than men. The, you know, the population is more women, which is just striking and really significant. But, you know, what I've learned is that there are tremendous judgments about women. It's not just female infidelity. I mean, we're raised to be good girls, and good girls are pleasers. And whether you're 40 or 80, you've been expected to be a pleaser in this culture, in contemporary American culture.

So the judgment about women is going to be demeaning, would you say?

Or I— it's going to be a judgment, whether it's positive or negative, and it will be harsher when it's negative because there is so much more power that men have garnered just by virtue of their gender.

Sure. Yeah. Well, let's, let's talk about the research you've spent 30 years researching female infidelity. And what do you attribute this to? I, I know when you and I spoke, some of it was just this notion of, um, kind of breaking away from that patriarchy, and women can feel more independent, more autonomous, and freer to do things that they want, and not so limited by the society's mores.

I began this research in 1991, and the first edition came out in 1993. And the reason it was so curious to me was that I kept hearing stories, whisperings of women who were having affairs, and I thought, is this a trend? Is it a phenomenon? Is it a piece of the pie of life for women? And I really needed to know more, to know about it. And so, as you know, as a trained writer, journalist, and fiction writer, but as a journalist and researcher, I really looked into it, and from the start, I wanted a very disparate group of women in terms of, you know, very diverse in terms of age, race, ethnicity, level of education, level of earning, religion. Just where they came from in the country mattered because I wanted to know how women felt in a progressive state or in a less progressive state. Women who had degrees from Harvard and women who didn't finish high school, because what I have found in all of my research is that this is an emotional journey. An affair, being upset with your daughter is an emotional journey. Um, not liking your mother-in-law or being unhappy in a marriage is an emotional journey. And Joe, for any of the emotional journeys that I've researched, It really doesn't matter your religion. It really doesn't matter your level of education or all of that. What matters is that this is how women feel and the faces that we wear versus what we really endure and what we long for. So female infidelity is incendiary because in our culture, women are really good girls and, and they're not really allowed to have longings and yearnings. And yet my anecdotal qualitative research shows us that that's not really the case, that in fact women will act on their longings, and women are very good at what they do, including having an affair.

So it's emotionally driven, and it's not related to age or ethnic background or type of upbringing or schooling or— no, whatever. It's, it's the overriding factor is this emotional drive, emotional disposition.

Yes.

And, and what are women really after? And what do they put to the side for the betterment of others? And what's so interesting about the gray affair, as I call the affair for women over 55 or 60, into their 80s, based on my latest research, is that these women are really reacting to many decades of not feeling happy enough or recognized or visible or with enough agency. And they're saying, and this isn't for everyone, this isn't like, hi, here's what you need to do. This is about a choice that some women make. To take a lover, whether it's a cyberspace affair or an affair of the mind or a physical affair, or it's in real time or virtual time. The idea that women are in these committed relationships or marriages and are embarking on an affair.

Are there some differences in the 55+ age group compared to middle-aged adults, middle-aged women?

In my study, I hear that women of all ages are very determined to have the affair if this is what they choose. But for women who are over 60, there is a tremendous confidence in this decision, almost as if they've crossed a threshold and they're saying, okay, I've about had enough now. I've, uh, this is what I want to do and this is what the reward is for me.

That's very poignant description. I mean, it, it says so much. This is, this is a result of kind of this kind of heartfelt decision. I've, I've reached a place where I want more, right? Yeah. Yeah.

And it also really speaks positively to longevity. We live long enough to understand ourselves better, and we these women at this age are really fighting ageism in a very strong way because the trajectory of the female life, even in contemporary society, has been, you know, that you're born to be a good daughter, then a good wife, then a good mother, then a good grandmother if you're lucky, and then, you know, that's it. Good grandmother, yeah, sure. And that's sort of all that's expected. And of course, the Workplace opened up to women years ago, and that made a big difference too. But what we're really talking about is women having more options and women saying that they were conventional, possibly they are conventional. I've interviewed women over 60 who speak of being pretty religious, that their religion matters to them. So, you know, these women are still, having affairs. And what's so fascinating is that they look at this affair as a way to get something that's just self-care, a real journey for themselves very personally. But what they're saying about the rest of it is, I can't break up this marriage or this man I've lived with for the last 20 years since I was widowed, or whatever their narrative is. I can't upset my children. I can't upset my grandchildren. My children and grandchildren expect, and my partner or husband expect me to be here, but the affair belongs to me. That's really what I'm hearing in their stories. And these are anonymous interviews. So I just wanna mention that when I interview women, all the identifying characteristics are changed. So if you live in Philadelphia, you'll choose another city. If you've been a physician, maybe you'll be a stockbroker, you know, but, but, but, or, you know, whatever. But what is really this truth is the story of the lover.

So it's not always a matter of giving up or disengaging from their traditional marriage and parenting and grandparenting. Maybe sometimes, but not always. There's—

well, about 50/50 in my study for women of every age. Yeah, because the, you know, this gray affair that we're talking about really dovetails with the gray divorce. And the latest studies on the gray divorce are pretty amazing because AARP did a study and that was really the famous study, right? And the gray divorce has been bandied about, I guess, for maybe 15 or 20 years. But I, this really, when I kept hearing women having affairs over 60, I realized how it reflected the gray divorce and that escalation. So it's really the same thing except that some women say like almost 50% in my study do not choose to leave.

Mm-hmm.

Or, you know, to get divorced. But the idea that you could get to, you, one could become divorced and precipitate the divorce, which over 65% of women in, well, 69% of women in America. I think it's a U.S. Census study, but ask for divorces across the board, all different ages. But of the gray divorce, again, it's over— it's, I think it's 66 or 69%. So we're talking about— and gray divorces are on the rise. So, so are affairs among women of a certain age.

Yeah. Um, so looking at the longevity factor again, yes, we are living longer and I heard Ken Dykstra speak about living longer, and he called it the longevity bonus that we have these extra years and time to look at new opportunities, new careers, new special interests, developing new skills. So I don't know if he had this in mind as a bonus, but the fact that we are living longer, it does conceivably open, open these doors.

I think that's a really salient point. And you know, it, it gives women so many ways to reinvent themselves. Men too, but we're here to talk about what women are deciding to do. And I think it's fascinating that longevity gives us a chance to reinvent ourselves. Some women in my study told me that they wouldn't have dared to have an affair at 40. Or 50, but they really wanted to. And, and what's so interesting is how the women meet these men. So they meet them either in a retirement community or joining a gym or going to a lecture, or because of social media and the internet, finding that old beau, finding that old crush, meeting a widower, you know. So there are so many ways to have access to men and, and to women. I mean, it's just the world has opened up so much in terms of finding someone whom you might want to embark on an affair with.

Sure. So as you said, maybe not just heterosexual relationships but homosexual relationships, these affairs to have. Would there be occasion for homosexual affairs?

So this is a study— my study from the start has been heterosexual women and the other man, but there have been times when women have spoken with me about leaving for a woman and what that really does for them and how positive it is and how it's really a very personal awakening. The, the one thing I wanted to say about this other man is that he is in over 70% of the cases very, very different, the opposite of the husband or longstanding monogamous partner, because no one's here to like repeat their experience. They're here to have a very different experience. So that's really part of it too.

70% are different, almost opposite. Exactly.

Yeah, over 70%. And the women really get from this relationship what they're not getting from the marriage or, you know, monogamous relationship, committed relationship.

Yeah, that's fascinating in itself. I'm sure you had a lot of aha moments as you were interviewing these people and kind of sharing their stories and their interests. None of this is all that predictable, right? I mean, it's largely unknown territory.

Yes, I think that women, as I sort of said earlier, are often really misunderstood. And there has really been tacit approval for men of any age for centuries, decades, to have affairs. And that's just not been allowed women. That goes back to what we said earlier about judgment. Women have really not been allowed, if you will. I mean, think of the Scarlet Letter or think of Anna Karenina. Let's just, you remember how she— no spoiler here, we must know Anna Karenina by now. I mean, she jumped in front of a train. Of course, a man wrote the novel, but okay. But there's no one jumping in front of a train here. There's really the opposite. Women are kind of cheering for this very personal journey, and they really do view it that way.

Yeah. So, um, you mentioned 70% are between a woman and somebody who's different from their husband. Can you share some other statistics? I mean, how many— what percentage of women engage in affairs, and what percentage have sex-driven affairs? How many stay versus return to move on to another relationship? Share some of the stats you found.

Well, based on my anecdotal qualitative research, I'm not Pfizer, this is, you know, anecdotal research, but in the aggregate, I've spoken with thousands of women over this 30-year study. And, um, I believe that 70% of women will at some point in their lives engage in some sort of affair. And what I mean by that is crossing the line. So when women say, well, you know, he's just my best friend at work, but there are these confidences that are shared, or, you know, they're going out for lunch in a way where they just hope no one else in the group at work will join them, then that's really, you know, that's crossing the line. And then of course you asked about sex-driven affairs. I have 4 different kinds of affairs in my study. So sex-driven is pretty self-explanatory, and women of all ages, including women over 60, talk about not having enough sex or the kind of sex they want with their husbands or longstanding partners and getting it from the lover. Those women in, in the gray affair category 2 for the sex-driven affairs, these women aren't remotely interested in an emotional connection. So they just kind of trade in style that we know from male behavior. You know, it's all about sex and that's it. And if the man wants more, they mostly move on. You know, I mean, it gets trickier if you fall for the lover, but that's sex-driven. Then there's a category called empowering affairs. And in this category, women really do trade in a currency that has been for decades, centuries, part of the male experience. And that means that you travel for work, you also just go to work— this is before COVID when we were all relegated to home to work— and you have opportunities and earn enough money. Well, now women earn money, women travel for work, women know how to find the men, and they're trading in that same currency. They're, they're as empowered. So that's really interesting. And then we have the self-esteem affairs, and women over 60 spoke about that a lot, that, as do women of all ages. But I was very struck by how the women in, during their gray affairs, talked about feeling invisible as wives or partners, as mothers, grandmothers, as you know, just women of a certain age in our society, really invisible and not appreciated. And the affair makes them feel— and the lover makes them feel really appreciated and much more alive. So they talked about that. And then the last category, and the toughest really in this study because it's most complicated, is the love affair. And women describe everything as okay, good enough. And then they meet this man. Maybe they go to a party, maybe they just search for, you know, someone they knew, and once they're in touch again, it just ignites something. Someone you've never met, someone at a reunion, someone at a wedding, and there you fall for that person. It's really like a thunderbolt. And that changes everything. That's so triangulated. You know, you've got that okay or good enough or maybe really great husband at home. And now this is in your life. And women say that that one is the most complicated. But again, it speaks to women over 60 who say, I just can't believe I fell in love at 64, or here I am 72 and oh my God, I feel like a teenager. So that's the fourth category.

Well, yeah, they are complicated, especially the last one. It's kind of this unexpected, um, maybe serendipitous— I'm not sure if that's the right word— but some unexpected, uh, meeting that turns into some powerful engagement.

Yeah, it's incredible. And those women really spoke very openly about it.

Yeah, I know you haven't looked at men's infidelity, but Just do you have a sense that aging, longevity is a factor for men too, that that's playing a role maybe in the incidence of extramarital affairs for men?

It would have to be, because who are these women with? But in terms of actually, you know, attesting to that, I only can report about the men as the women report it to me. But because lovers and husbands or longstanding partners are opposites, many women say that they've been with a man— like, I interviewed a 64-year-old woman recently who said that her husband was 12 years older than she, but her lover was her age, and she really appreciated it. So, you know, we're, you know, we're hearing it both ways. And she described it as again, such a different experience. But the, the men, of course they're out there in the same way, but men have always been out there, you know, when it comes to affairs.

Do you get a sense that there is some kind of moral or kind of guilt issues that some of the women experience? I mean, yes, you said earlier that they go into these relationships with that kind of confidence and, you know, that kind of determination. But are there some people that really have some conflicts about it, anxious and depressed, or do you ever pick up on that?

I mean, well, surprisingly few. And I think that what the women are saying, especially women over 60, are saying to me, look, You know, I put up with my husband, I kept this family together, or I love my husband, this is just something for me, or I know I don't feel guilty, I've been conventional my whole life and where has that gotten me? Or for the women over 60 who have had affairs when they're younger, you know, maybe at 30, maybe at 40, 50, they're saying, you know what, this one I really understand, I have a lot of self-knowledge because I'm a certain age. That's the perk of this age. So I'm not hearing a lot of guilt. I'm hearing some concern about, because the women are moral and they're saying, you know, I would never hurt my husband or partner. I don't want him to ever know about it. And by the way, Joe, women are so good at not getting caught. They really are. They're, you know, because in, again, here we go again, in a patriarchal culture, women have lots of skills in this. We're multifaceted. Multiskilled, wear lots of hats, because that's what survival is for women in a patriarchy. So why not be good at this too? And they are.

There's something really, um, kind of gratifying or kind of eye-opening as you talk about this resolve and sense of resolution that the person has, rather than feeling regretful or like they've, you know, gone off in the wrong direction. I think there's— I think there is something positive about that sense of kind of self-affirming kind of behavior or sense of identity. There's—

it's almost— it's like a form of being enlightened about oneself. The women are really speaking about these affairs as something that resonates for them, so they're not out to hurt anyone. And that's why so many of them keep it very quiet. And it's why my book is called Affairs That Make or Break Us.

Affairs That Make—

well, you know, it's called A Passion for More, but the subtitle Affairs That Make or Break Us, because that's really what it's about. That's the complexity of it.

Sure, sure. Yeah, it's almost as if there's, um, kind of a mystical— it's not the right word— but some kind of a a singular experience that comes from that, that puts the person in a different place where she's never been before, right?

It's a form of agency. And for some of the older women with whom I've spoken, it's actually very meaningful because it's one of the only times that they've done something just for themselves. So the affair is really a declaration of independence or self or choice outside this very conventional life and this life that's expected of the women. And, you know, it's not that they started hoping for an affair one day, it's that it's an evolution.

And what percentage would you say go back to their, their own marriage and without complication, just kind of return to that traditional lifestyle? Versus about 50/50. Oh, 50/50.

Yeah, or like 48/52. But only 35% of the women of any age ended up with the lover. So the lover is often a bridge or a way to understand better who you are, or to better understand what you have in this longstanding relationship. It, you know, some of the women called it a wake-up call.

Yeah, I like the term the bridge. Yeah, that's good. A bridge to, uh, more unknown.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's—

and it isn't often that a woman says, I just decided I had to have an affair. I mean, some do, but it's much more, as I said, it just evolves.

Yeah. Well, what a great conversation, Susan. I really appreciate your sharing your insights and your for your research.

Thank you.

Really enjoy this. Is there a takeaway for the audience, the people that listen to this podcast? What would you like them to keep in mind or remember from our talk?

I'd like women and men to be very open toward any new experience, including an affair, at any point in their lives, and to view this as a way to have insight into what the female psyche is about. And the other thing I wanted to say is, I think we talked about this before we went live, is that, um, there's a podcast, an iHeart podcast that just started yesterday, just landed yesterday, 8 episodes, iHeart, and it landed on Valentine's Day and it's called She Wants More and it's inspired by my book and study, A Passion for More. So, you know, if someone wants information beyond our talk today, the podcast is with— oh, I've, you know, I was very involved with it, one of the producers. It's just extraordinary. And if you really want to hear these women, and of course my book, if you want to read about them.

Sure. Yeah. I was going to ask you about your book. How can someone listen to your podcast? iHeartRadio, and that's the platform.

Download it, and I think it comes through different channels. I think Spotify, Apple, anyway that, you know, a lot of us love to walk and listen to podcasts, and so it's a great one.

So the title is She Wants More.

She Wants More, based on my book, A Passion for More.

Great, love that title. Yeah, that's affirming. Yes. So, um, it looks like we're out of time, but before we wrap up, Susan, I just want to remind my listeners to visit my website, livingto100.club. Sign up for our email list and download a free copy of my 9 tips to make living longer enjoyable. You'll also see an option to contact me with your questions and comments. I do welcome your feedback. And finally, thank you again for being a premium club subscriber. Your support helps us keep the program going. I believe that the message that we share each week can lift our spirits, help us to stay engaged, and look forward to getting older no matter what gets in the way. Susan, thanks so much for being a guest on our program. For those who might want to contact you, how can they best do that?

Uh, go to my website. It is susanshapirobarish.com. And thank you again for having me. It's been really nice to talk with you.

Well, you're most welcome. And thanks to everyone for listening. Hope to see you next time.

Hi, I'm Laurie LeBay, and I wanted to tell you about Alzheimer's Alzheimer's Speaks, which is another great podcast. You see, my own mother lived with dementia for 30 years, and I felt lost. Did you know every 3 seconds someone in the world is being diagnosed with dementia? Odds are it's going to hit your families too. We want to help you connect to services, products, tools, research, and stories so you can be prepared. Please subscribe to Alzheimer's Speaks on your favorite podcast platform.