Dreaming Myself into Old Age: A Conversation with Lily Iona MacKenzie

Welcome to the Living to 100 Club Podcast. Here's our host, Dr. Joseph Casciani.

Well, hello to everyone joining us today. You're listening to the Living to 100 Club Podcast, and I am your host, Joe Casciani. I'm passionate about helping people embrace the principles of psychologically healthy aging. Staying positive, finding purpose, and making the most of all the years we're given, no matter what challenges come along. Each episode, we bring you conversations that educate and inspire, guiding you to age with resilience, optimism, and a positive mindset. Thank you for being part of this journey. Now, let's dive into today's conversation. Today we'll be having a discussion with Lily Iona McKenzie, author of the hybrid memoir Dreaming Myself into Old Age. In this episode, our guest shares her personal journey of aging, exploring Jungian insights and the role of dreams in self-discovery. We'll delve into how aging influences relationships personal growth and creativity, as well as the importance of embracing the present moment. Lily also reflects on her experiences as a published author later in life, the themes of her memoir, and the mysteries of aging that shape our outlook and resilience. First, a little background. Lily Iona McKenzie is an accomplished author, poet, and educator whose creative journey began on a Canadian farm under Alberta's expansive skies. Drawing inspiration from the natural world, her work is infused with elements of magical realism and celebrates the boundless imagination. A high school dropout turned scholar, Lily earned two master's degrees in creative writing and humanities. Publishing widely across genres in over 165 American and Canadian venues. A dedicated educator, Lily taught rhetoric and creative writing at the University of San Francisco for over 30 years and continues to coach aspiring writers in fiction, nonfiction, and poetry. Lily, welcome to our program.

Thank you. It's lovely to be with you, Joe.

Great. Well, you're welcome. I'm looking forward to our conversation. Yeah, I always like to open by asking our guest to tell us about the journey, maybe the high points, the pivot points that brought you to where you are today. What stands out in your mind as kind of guiding you to where you are today?

Well, maybe I'll start with the high school dropout that you've already mentioned. And also remind people that I was raised in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. So I dropped out of high school soon after my mother took off with her then-lover to another city, to Vancouver, British Columbia, and left me— I was 14— and my two younger brothers and my stepfather to take care of ourselves. Since my stepfather felt that women didn't really need an education because they're just getting married and having kids and etc., it didn't take me long to figure out, well, what's the point of me continuing in high school? So I dropped out at 14, and I thought I was going to be the caretaker then for my brothers and my stepfather, but That didn't turn out too well, so I decided to follow my mother to Vancouver, British Columbia. Oh wow, yeah. So fortunately, before I dropped out of high school, I had learned how to type, and I was a really good typist. So I used those typing skills to, you know, get office jobs. My first job was as an office girl, and I kind of progressed up the ladder from there. Sure. Yeah, but, uh, unfortunately— well, I shouldn't say unfortunately because I have a wonderful son as a result— but I got pregnant at 16. My son was born when I turned 17. 6 months after he was born, I left his father because I discovered his goals in life and mine at that point didn't merge, and I didn't want to spend the rest of my life with man. So, so we separated. I was able to get again these office jobs and I worked in— this would have been the early '60s. I worked for Gretel Corporation in Alberta, in Calgary, when they were building the Alberta to California gas pipeline. It was a really big deal then. And I had these wonderful bosses in this project office. And so when I decided that the bright lights were drawing me from the United States and San Francisco in particular, I decided to write Bechtel Corporation and ask if they sponsor me into the States.

Oh, wow.

Pretty, pretty gutsy for a high school dropout. And they agreed because they'd had a good experience with Canadian secretaries, et cetera. So in 1963, then, I moved to San Francisco. Unfortunately, even though it looked like a lot of money from my Canadian perspective when I moved— before I moved down here, when I got here, I realized raising a son on the salary that I made then wasn't going to make it. So I had to work two jobs. I took an evening job where I was a receptionist at the Fred Astaire Dance Studio in California, which was across there, of course. So I had to scurry across the bay. Well, so then I realized, well, I can't— this isn't working out for myself or my son. So I decided I'd heard that cocktail waitresses made pretty good money. I happened to know Mel Swig, who was one of the owners of the Fairmont Hotel in San Francisco, and he got me a job then as a cocktail waitress. I hated it. It was really hard work, but I did make enough money then to support myself and my son. So I did it for 5 years. 5 long years. So then in my late 20s, I went through a very deep depression for about a year. But it was, you know, I realized later it was a real mental breakthrough for me, and it's what made me aware of the unconscious, that I had such a thing, that I had access to an unconscious. And so I, uh, you know, got into therapy and I began reading in-depth psychology, in particular Jungian psychology. Man and His Symbols was one of the early books of his that I read, and it led to this lifelong interest then in dreams and self-examination. Eventually I earned a GED, General Educational Development, uh, certificate, so I was able to attend college. And I ended up eventually with two master's degrees, one in English with an emphasis on creative writing. And then I thought, well, if I'm going to be a writer, I need to have a good liberal arts background. So then I took a master's in the humanities as well. And, you know, even though I published short fiction and poetry and essays, etc., over the years, it wasn't until I was 75 Well, actually 71, because in 2011 I published my first poetry collection, All This, and you'll see behind me are all my books. And then I was 75 when Pinal Publishing, a wonderful publisher in Fayetteville, Arkansas, small press, they published my first novel.

Ling.

And then since then I've published 4 novels total and 3 poetry works and then the memoir that you mentioned. Yeah, yeah. The subtitle to the memoir, it isn't just Dreaming Myself into Old Age, but it's One Woman's Search for Meaning. So that's, I think, would give listeners maybe a fuller sense of what I was attempting in that work.

Yeah, so that's the dreaming myself into all— that's quite a, a journey, by the way, picking up where you left off from, from leaving high school and going on to more graduate study and some master's degrees. So you really were able to put your interest back into something that you found really rewarding for you. Go ahead.

I'm just saying I was very—

okay, so the Dreaming Myself into Old Age, that's, that's kind of a blend of the personal reflection and instruction, instructional insights. What prompted you to write that?

Well, I had been in Jungian analysis earlier in my life, but it 72, it had been years since I'd worked with anyone, and, uh, and I wanted to address my fears of aging.

Yes, sure.

And dying, of course. Uh, and so I was very fortunate because my husband and I, as teachers, we didn't make tons of money. Uh, and so I found this wonderful, uh, Jungian analyst who actually had been a training analyst at San Francisco Jung Institute, and he took Medicare. And it was such a, you know, when I first went to see him, I said, why do you take Medicare? And he said, well, why not?

It was just a perfect answer.

Yeah, perfect answer. And I'm sorry that more people who are working with older adults don't have that attitude. Anyway, you know, I had this 10-year journey with him that led me to wanting to write about the process and also about how dreams have been such an important part of my growth and self-discovery. And, you know, I believe that at any age, the Dream Maker, whoever the Dream Maker is, is waiting for us, just waiting for us to tune in to these nightly stories, so that I hope my story will resonate for some readers and inspire them to pay more attention to their inner worlds, not just through dreams but also through all the arts.

Sure. So what lessons, um, you know, as we evolve through the aging process and we grow and learn, what, what lessons have you learned? What, what can you share with our listeners?

Well, this will come as no surprise, I don't think, but I believe that old age has more challenges than just the physical. So as we go through the many changes that can occur, either physically or mentally or emotionally, our relationships then are challenged with our partners, with our neighbors, with our friends. Everything shifts. Along with us and our blockies. And so if you're at all, you know, alert to these things, it's a challenge to manage these phases with humor and some willingness to recognize what's going on. Oh, so this is why, you know, we're having this major conflict right now. And I'll mention as an example that a shift, one of the shifts with my husband. My husband's 3 years older than I am, and until he was 80, he— I hardly ever even saw him get a cold. He never missed a day of teaching. He's a psychoanalyst. He never missed, uh, you know, a day working with his patients. But at 80, he got cancer, cancer. And so from then on, things shifted, uh, because he had a lot of physical needs, uh, and, you know, in addition to the cancer, then he's got these terrible shoulder arthritis things and hip replacement, all of these things. So everything that's happened then with him has really made, made, uh, major shifts in our relationship, so that what started out where He was sort of the, um, a real pater familias. He, uh, he was the one who, uh, knew how to manage the budget and, you know, the taxes and all. Yeah, he was really— I mean, I— it wasn't that I wasn't participating, but he, uh, He had a PhD and I only had two MAs.

Okay, so you deferred a lot to him and now that changed.

And now he's really dependent on me.

Yeah.

So many things. And so we've had to make— fortunately, you know, we've been able to talk these things through too, which is important. But it's just an example of the kind of changes and shifts that we have to be prepared for.

Yeah. How do you find yourself adjusting to that change? How do you adapt to it? I mean, we're always talking about adapting to changes, but for you, it's a change in your spouse that you're adapting to.

How do you? Yeah, well, it just simply changes the relationship. It's like I'm needing then to embrace my strengths and the things that I need to do in order to keep us moving forward in our lives. And, uh, and it can get a little lonely out there sometimes, but there's a wonderful organization in the Bay Area, uh, that I think these, these organizations are national, and this is called the Aspie Village. And people have gathered together to create groups where we get online and have conversations, and groups for people who are caretakers, and etc. And so it's very useful to use that kind of support, having those conversations with them. And I'm sure any area you could find something like this.

Yeah, so that whole aspect of community, you know, connection and engagement with others, that's a strong, powerful kind of resource that helps us with a lot of our challenges. I just want to go back to what you said, though. What are the changes that, you know, this brought on with your husband's change? You were embracing your strengths. You had to embrace your strengths. Was that something that was always a little bit on the back burner for you?

Not really, given, given my— the history that I've already told you, I had a lot of strengths. I had to have a lot of strength, of course, that I had accomplished. But I think in, in the sense of our relationship, uh, he had been my teacher. I had met him when I was 50 in classes, and so he had already this elevated status in my psyche. And, you know, over the years we became much more equal.

Um, okay.

But even so, I still, in terms of my relationship with Michael, I still had to take hold then or bring back you know, into more active, um, active role. The parts of myself that need— that can take charge, that can—

yeah, and still complement one another, right?

Yeah. And try to be sensitive to how these things are affecting him too.

Yeah. Yeah. So let me ask you about the dreams again. Um, you know, having worked with You're young and analyst. Um, can you think of some dream or some recollection that was very powerful for you and how it might have influenced you or your decisions? And you know, how was that analysis? How did that open things up for you?

Well, let me give you a more current example to show you how these things are still opening up. And how dreams can help us with that. So February 12th of this year, I dreamt something about this male poet who didn't believe in his poetry talents. I mean, we're just talking now about things that— my strengths and weaknesses. Anyway, in the dream, he didn't believe in his poetry talents because they were more outside the box. He wasn't a conventional poet. And so, you know, so what do I do with that? And so here I have— since these figures in our dreams usually represent some aspect of ourselves— so here I'm facing this inner poet, this male poet He has the ability to give voice to the unconscious. He's more innovative. He's more risk-taking, more willing to break the norms. And his poetry tends to be nonlinear. Well, I struggled ever since I began as a poet, those two divides. There are the poets who follow the more conventional mode, and there are those who are more unconventional, more experimental, and so on. I've always had difficulty accepting the more unconventional part of myself, but here this dream is showing me how this— his self-doubt, you know, reflects this struggle within me about my own creative work and whatever unique perspectives I have as a result of that. So it really was a wake-up call in February, um, when I got this— when I had this dream. And I certainly been thinking about it ever since.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it causes me to wonder about, you know, as we discover maybe some of our own creative talents and creative outlets later in life, um, what advice do you have for others who maybe can spark some of their creativity and help them to maybe explore a little bit more? What, what advice do you have?

Well, of course, I believe creativity is important at all ages. Uh, it's important to explore a variety, I think, of artistic areas. It's important just to learn and keep learning, and especially in old age. Whatever the learning areas may be for you. And so, the creative outlets might not necessarily just be in being in the arts. They could come in other forms. You might discover that you don't know anything about physics, and that's a rich area for you to explore. Sure. So, I think for older adults, I think it's especially important to discover latent talents and bring them forward. I mean, here is the dream I just shared. This is something that is partially latent in me, but it clearly needs a little more attention. So I feel as if we give these things in ourselves light, we also are giving ourselves more energy to draw on. Yeah, and so, uh, the use of the arts, you know, I think the arts in particular are wonderful ways, uh, to take us into the mysteries and maybe help explain them a bit too.

Yeah, can you, can you expound on that a little bit? As you, you know, the energy that we get as we explore, um, I believe that, but can you You kind of share some more insight on that. How do we get this energy exploring these?

Let me give you an example again from my husband and myself. Yeah, my husband, who as I mentioned, uh, is a psychoanalyst, a Freudian analyst, and, uh, and was, uh, an incredible, uh, teacher, uh, 19th and 20th century American lit However, you know, he did that until he just recently retired from teaching at the Fromm Institute in San Francisco. But he hasn't, he hasn't opened himself. He's lived in a very narrow world and he hasn't opened himself up to, you know, many things. And I feel as if he's kind of stuck, and he feels stuck, but he doesn't seem to be able to, you know, step outside of the limits he's put on himself. So I think the energy comes in, and I've got so many things that I want to be doing. I don't have enough time, you know. My my life is really full, and it energizes me because I'm learning, I'm trying things, and I'm, you know, going deeper into old things and so on. But that energizes us. It gives me, you know, when I wake up in the morning, I'm looking forward to what I'm going to do that day. Is that the answer?

Yeah, yeah, no, I agree because it's that whole school of thought about comfort zone. And we can stay in the comfort zone, and it's safe and familiar. We're used to it. It's predictable. And we're kind of— I won't say robbed, but we're denied a lot of the opportunity that comes with stepping outside of that comfort zone. As you're talking about your husband, he's kind of feeling safe and routine with his his lectures. But, um, for you, it— you, you like to step out of that familiar place, that cozy place, and, and see what opens. Is that where the energy comes from, in your opinion?

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. It's, it feeds you, you know. It's, it's not unlike just eating good food. You're getting nourishment from out there, and it's going to energize you.

It's a little anxiety arousing though, right? I mean, we're giving up that familiar routine, that predictability.

But I mean, I think if you like traveling at all, and maybe some people don't like traveling because they want to be jogged out of their normal routines, but to me it's like traveling. And there'll be some fears and, you know, what am I going to get into here? But you know that if you give yourself over to it, the results are going to be really satisfying. You'll open, you know, doors, new windows, new everything, and make discoveries about yourself, make discoveries about others, about the world, and help you be energized by that.

Yeah, no, that's a great example because when we learn about other cultures and you know, are exposed to different beliefs and systems and people, and we learn about ourselves too, don't we?

We—

yeah, yeah. So, um, let me, let me ask you again about aging. And then you mentioned earlier about how our relationships are challenged or changed or maybe taxed a little bit as, as we age, our relationships with our friends, with our family. With our neighborhood. Can you talk a little bit about that? How do our— how does aging take a toll on relationships?

Well, you know, a couple of things that are constant in our lives is death and change. I'll just pause there.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, we're always changing, if only, you know, minimally, as a result of the alterations to our our bodies and our minds. So if we're at all awake to these things, we'll find a need to make changes in how we interact with others, especially those who are closest to us. So power levels in relationship— I've already talked about myself and my husband. Yeah, especially in old age, uh, as you know, you know, you know, this is a usual point and we may find ourselves becoming more invisible to some people, at least. Yeah, even family members, you know, uh, for whom we may have been, uh, you know, a big deal when we were younger. So our kids may begin to take on our previous roles with us, and we have to respond to that. Do we want to be by our kids, you know, are they protecting us, etc. And so we're constantly challenged with as much humor as possible.

Yeah, of course. That's interesting, the point you made about becoming more invisible sometimes to others. How do you mean that? Can you explain that?

Well, I know you don't mean it literally, but I think, I think Well, I think we can use Joe Biden as an example in a way. You know, he was a powerful political figure for so many years. But when he became old and when he began to demonstrate some of the effects of his particular aging, he— people didn't want to see him. Anymore. All they saw was this old whatever. And so if we're— if people are, you know, putting those expectations on us because they see the gray or white hair and the wrinkles and, and the frailties, I think there can be a tendency to then not see us at all, not to recognize that we have, you know, all experienced, have stories to tell, hopefully some wisdom.

And so, so we don't know, we don't always, we don't always want to see the, the process taking place. We have a vision or an image or a memory of someone or something or some institution in a certain way, and when it evolves, we may not like it. It may feel unsettling for us.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So President Biden, as you say, um, had always been this strong figure, strong politician, and then in his senior years, later years, he, he became less so. And is that I mean, how does the world view aging politicians, or how should we view aging politicians? And not talking about any term limits or anything, but can we be strong in our 70s, 80s, and 90s, even if we're not as maybe as visible as we used to be?

Yeah, I don't, you know, I think it's a problem, and certainly these things in the paper every day. Schumer, the young Democrats in Congress not being happy with how he handled this, you know, in the latest—

the budget.

And but on the other hand, when, you know, I find myself when I hear somebody, you know, like my stepson wanting— what would— I can't, never can remember her name. All the Cortez part I recall, but the one who had some congresswoman from New York who has the team.

Oh yeah, AOC.

Yeah. And you know, he wants her to run for president, and I'm thinking, wait a minute.

Yeah.

You know, so I'm taking sort of a similar stance to maybe what some younger people are taking to the older politicians or the idea of these older politicians, really. But I think you need a hell of a lot more experience than she—

Sure.

Or she's gonna think about running for president or, you know, something equivalent. So, um, so it's a I guess there needs to be more dialogue, more conversation, and it's unfortunate that maybe in the Congress, in the Senate, they don't have many—

Could you repeat that?

In Congress or in the Senate, I'm assuming that they don't have many meetings where they talk about these things, but Some kind of dialogue needs to happen. Because I think there are certain senators, certain congressmen, women who probably should retire, who are clearly showing the effects of age that are going to interfere with them doing a good job. And that just makes sense. That's just common sense. And that would be true of them of any age if they were exhibiting behaviors that make you lose confidence in them as leaders. So, but the problem is I don't think those conversations are happening enough in the background, the foreground, everywhere. You know, how do we deal with these things? And we're so limited. Thank God for podcasts. I think they're bringing a whole other horizon to these social problems. But it's so limited if you're watching, you know, TV, the cable news and so on, X, that used to be Twitter, any of these apps. I mean, it's really limited in terms of really being able to get in depth in conversation. So I just would like to see more community, uh, communities, you know, you know, such as what I described earlier, the Ashby Village for these older adults. But having those not just for older adults, but where young and old can get together so that we aren't, you know, in battle, we're not becoming our tribes and having to protect and defend our tribes.

So that's, um, Yeah, no, I understand that. What changes would you like to see in the way maybe older adults are portrayed in the media or society? How is aging portrayed favorably or not so favorably?

Well, you know, I think there are attempts. Being made. You know, when I see older adults in commercials, I applaud.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, it's an attempt. But I think that certainly more can be done. And since the media has such a dominant presence in our lives, certainly, you know, it's the entity that could open us up more But, you know, it'd just be wonderful to hear from more of us who've lived interesting lives. And even people whose lives may not seem interesting can reveal things that are beneficial to everybody. I taught memoir for years. And one of the gifts for me was reading these people's stories. Yeah, it was just extraordinary to be taken into their lives. And these are just ordinary people, but these moments in their lives that they wrote about, that just illuminated so much about themselves, but just so much about us as humans. So, um, um, yeah, I— it would be, uh, really, really valuable to have that kind of recognition to not be just so preoccupied with the present moment.

Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. I mean, we don't have to be famous, we all have a story. I hear, hear some ruffling there. I don't know if you're moving papers, but it kind of cuts into the microphone sometimes. Anyway, Yeah, we do. We don't have to be famous, as you say. You can read anyone's life story and be amazed at the accomplishments or the challenges or frustrations or whatever we encounter. So interesting insights. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this. What's the takeaway, Lily? What would you like our listeners to remember from our conversation? What do you hope they take away from it?

Well, that aging isn't a static process. You know, if anything, it's as dynamic as any other phase of our lives, if not more so. And there are continuing mysteries to uncover. So I feel that, you know, some of the negative feelings about aging really need to be challenged. And one of the books that I'm reading right now is called Confronting Death And I think we avoid, especially in this culture, avoid anything around death, which is sort of part of the youth culture too. You know, you don't talk about that endgame. That doesn't exist.

Us?

No, we're never going to die. But I think that by doing that, it, you know, kind of, it's like a mirror. That we can look into and see, oh, I mean, begin to— I think we begin then to see our lives in a different way when we begin to see it through that lens of death.

Yeah.

And, you know, that's coming. So what does that mean and what does that then produce in us as we're living?

Yeah, certainly to discuss that topic, it's a powerful subject, but it doesn't mean we're going to die any sooner because we're talking about it, right?

It doesn't.

It does bring meaning to our life. It brings purpose to our life. And I like what you're saying about the change in the way we view aging and older adults. We don't have those same old stereotypes and prejudices that we used to. It doesn't mean that it's a period of failure and decline. And dependency. And yeah, for some people, we're physically not as strong, and maybe we do decline, but not everyone.

So, and we decline in different ways. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And again, that word decline, you know, is I think something we avoid. I mean, it's just a natural thing. It's a natural process.

That's right. Yeah, it's a dynamic process, as you say. Aging is a, is a, is not a static process. Yeah. Yeah. That's good.

That's good.

Well, Lily, thanks so much. Looks like we're out of time for today, but before we wrap up, I just wanna remind my listeners to visit my website at Living to 100 Club. You can sign up as a club insider. It's my new Living to 100 community. You'll enjoy many benefits. We're gonna have some private group forums and you'll be able to join those. So be sure to take a look, livingto100.community, livingto100.community. Livingto100.club is my main website, but .community is my new group forum. And if you're affiliated with a senior living community, be sure to explore my Better, Longer, and Happier card deck series at livingto100.solutions. Another domain, Living to 100.Solutions, a powerful resource designed to promote positive aging and engagement. Billie, thanks so much for being a guest on our show today. For those who might want to learn more about your work or buy any of your books, how can they do that?

Well, I have a blog, and you can learn anything you might want to know about me there, about my books. And it's, it's just simply lilyionamackenzie.com. So it's L-I-L-Y-I-O-N-A-M-A-C-K-E-N-Z-I-E dot com. And I love visitors.

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Joe. Thanks for your good work. Really important what you're doing.

Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Okay, and, uh, thanks to everyone listening to us and for joining us today. Until next time, stay positive. Hope to see you next time.