Elder Law Meets Aging Well: Planning Ahead with Nancy Cogar

Welcome to the Living to 100 Club Podcast. Here's our host, Dr. Joseph Casciani.

Today's episode of the Living to 100 Club Podcast, I welcome Nancy Kuger, an elder law and estate planning attorney, speaker, and host of the Boomer Time podcast. We'll explore how legal planning can support a fulfilling life in later years and provide a sense of control in uncertain times. With decades of experience advising older clients and families, Nancy offers practical, empowering guidance on topics like long-term care, financial decision-making, and how to prepare for life's transitions before a crisis hits. Today's listeners will hear why estate planning isn't just about wills and documents, It's about peace of mind, protecting independence, and communicating values across generations. First, a little background. Nancy Koger, JD, is an elder law and estate planning attorney based in Chattanooga, Tennessee, with over 25 years of experience helping families prepare for life's transitions. She's the founder of Koger Law and host of the Boomer Time podcast. Where she educates and empowers older adults on topics ranging from financial planning to aging with dignity. Nancy is a passionate speaker and advocate, blending legal insight with a deep commitment to helping others age confidently and with purpose. Nancy, welcome to our program.

Well, thank you. It's wonderful to be here.

Great, great. I'm glad we could have this conversation. I'm looking forward to it.

Me too.

Me too. So what drew you into elder law and estate planning as a professional focus, and how has your work evolved over the years?

Well, you know, initially I'm one of those type of people that sees a need and then responds to it. And I did, you know, notice that elderly, senior, aging, they can be they can be a lot of people that don't get much of a voice out in the community. Sure. They can be the ones that are struggling. You visibly see people struggling even when you're out and about. And it just, it drew me to that. And then having the experience of even having aging adults in my own family, seeing how, well, quite frankly, stressful and challenging that can be. And just emotionally trying, I wanted to respond in some way that I could help others prepare for that kind of thing because it's the type of thing you don't, you know, most people don't think about until they're knee-deep in, you know, some kind of crisis.

Yeah.

And with, you know, Dr. Joe, you know, with the silver tsunami, so to speak, headed our way, there's going to be more and more people that find themselves in these kinds of positions at that crossroads. What is my older life? What's life going to look like?

Yeah, yeah. So you've put yourself in a situation really to help with planning and preparation. I think that's what it's all about. With proper planning and proper steps in place, we can ease some of those challenges. As you say, we see challenges all the time. Can you give me an example or two of what you mean by the challenges you've observed?

Sure. Well, you know, say Say you don't have powers of attorney, and you know, things are not as easy as they used to be. There's— that's just the way it is, right? And say, you know, you think, well, I'm going to leave this to my son, or I'm going to leave this to my friend to be able to help me. Well, they don't have the authority to help you in those circumstances because you don't have an appropriate power of attorney, uh, you know, whether it's healthcare and HIPAA laws and privacy laws, or if it's, you know, trying to go to a bank to pay a bill, a bank is not going to let a third party come and access your financial accounts without some kind of legal authority. So these are things that need to be done, you know, before you have an issue. Even with competency issues, you know, that, that's one of those number one concerns of older adults is staying competent and not, you know, losing your function and memory. But you have to plan ahead because you need the capacity to make these types of decisions before. I see people who have waited so long that then they're faced to have the court direct what happens with their care through a guardianship or conservatorship. I'm sure you've seen a lot of that too. There's nothing more frustrating than, you know, having to wait on a a court to make decisions about your own assets, your own family.

So yeah, yeah, thanks. So things really are much more complicated today than, than just a couple of decades ago. A lot more regulations and laws in place really to protect us, but things that we can't handle overnight, right?

Right, right.

So what are some of the biggest misconceptions or misunderstandings people have about estate planning and legal preparation in later life?

Well, I think one of those would be, uh, people thinking that they don't have enough to have a plan.

Hmm.

And I always tell people, what you have is what you have, and you should protect it. You know, it doesn't have to be as complicated as, say, a multimillionaire's estate plan. But most of us You know, most of us do have real estate, most of us do have bank accounts, you probably have an IRA or retirement account, if you're older you have a pension. These are things that you want, first of all, want your family to know where they are, and then secondly, have the ability to put something enforceable in place so that if something were to happen to you, then that gets directed the way you want it to go. Because the default is, no matter what state you live in, if you don't do it yourself, then the state takes over, right? And decides based on its own little schedule of, uh, inheritance who gets what. And I've seen situations where you've— so many blended families, you know, and I've seen situations where second wives or stepchildren, they get left out of the equation because they're not legal heirs of the person that's passed away, and there's nothing more frustrating. But, you know, to go back to what I was saying initially, I think planning and having some kind of purpose for the things that you do have is just so important.

So yeah, you mentioned the whole notion of, um, kind of thinking that my assets, my estate, don't warrant this kind of legal assistance and estate planning. So is there, um, I mean, even with real estate or some IRAs or some pension, even that would qualify as, um, I mean, that would warrant a need for some legal advice?

Yeah, well, you know, interestingly enough, I think this is an area of the law that people make a lot of assumptions. And if you don't have a beneficiary on something— you mentioned IRAs— so if you don't have a beneficiary on that, or say the primary beneficiary dies before you do, if there's no beneficiary, that's going to go into your estate most likely. And there are laws now where you can roll those things over, avoid taxable events, leave portions for multiple people so that they can spread them over time. But if it goes into your estate, your estate is the one that's going to bear the cost of that if it's liquidated, which is most likely what's going to happen at that point. So I mean, it can cost you, can cost you some significant money.

Yeah, so the managing your, your estate, whatever size it is, is one of the steps in addition to a lot of the other planning and preparation that we mentioned earlier about power of attorney and healthcare directives and all that. These are all connected and these are all interconnected. I can see that where it really matters to our I think our satisfaction with growing old, because I, I see so many times where people are dreading getting older, and they see old age as a time of decline and dependency and helplessness, and they don't see the upside. They don't see the, the positives that they have in front of them. And I think what you're talking about is that let's put some of these other pieces in place, let's add these pieces to the puzzle, and that will give us some of the psychological peace of mind. What do you think about that?

Yeah, absolutely, because, you know, like you, I want people to maintain a high quality of life as they age. There's more and more people, you know, 100+, and there's more of them to come. This is a growing population, and I have people sometimes come to me and say their whole objective is to avoid their money going to a nursing home. And I say, your objective should not be a nursing home, first of all. That should be a last resort. I like to switch the conversation so that they can have that— I think it, you know, it's called aging in place, but for lack of a better explanation, having a community where you can stay and you can have friends, maybe other you know, neighbors, things like that, that you know and trust, be able to make decisions for you. I mean, you can do that with these types of documents, and that is a much better quality of life to be able to maintain it, your place at home, than, than have to go to institutionalized care. Then you're rethinking things about what's going to happen with your money. And as you know, that— I'm sure it's more expensive in California, but, you know, you're seeing costs of $5,000 to $10,000 a month So for most of my clients, you know, they could wipe through a whole life savings within a year.

Sure.

I think those are the things they don't know either. So when we sit down and have these conversations, you know, I'm saying, what do you want your life to look like? You know, what do you want to be able to do? Do you want to be able to stay mobile? You know, let's do some things inside your house that prevent you from falling. You know, because that can be such a detrimental thing. Um, you know, a lot of them, a lot of them sometimes are common sense things, but I think, you know, we, we forget, especially with our own surroundings. You know, we have little carpets around, things like that. If you do an assessment, thinking that carpet shouldn't be there, that can, that can cost you one for sure.

Yeah, yeah, we have people who are real experts in those kind of safety plans and assessments of risks in the home. Yeah, I really appreciate the concept of aging in place because that does offer a lot of the community, a lot of the support aside from delaying, you know, long-term care placement. Whatever we can add to our own home to reduce the risk and help us to stay there and age, you know, age as long as we can there independently. So that's, um, that's essential. What, um, can you give us an example of some case or some family or an individual who's, you know, had enough missteps that really threw them off-kilter?

And well, I had one case— well, I can, I can think of two, and this probably might get people to raise their eyebrows a few, but you know, these are just the kinds of things that I see and I think Why didn't you call me before this happened? But the first is, had a married couple. It was a second marriage. They were not, you know, elderly. They were in their 60s, you know. They were in a home. It had been the husband's home prior to that. He had two children, stepchildren, that were not particularly fond of their new stepmom, but the, you know, the husband and wife were, were in love and, you know, loved being in this home. Well, he died unexpectedly, and when he did, he did not have a will, and his primary asset was his house. So Tennessee law kicked in And lo and behold, wife got a 1/3 child's share of her home. Oh well, she was not on the deed. And the other two stepkids came in and started working on moving things out and selling, and it just was really— it was really a regretful situation.

Sure. Well, yeah, just without Intestate.

Yeah, yeah. And here's another one. People love to put a child on a bank account with them. I think it's easier, it's more convenient, you know. Well, he'll be fine there. Well, you're setting yourself up for so many things, you know, whether it's that person gets a judgment against them and then they're levying against your bank account, or you die, and guess what? That bank account becomes theirs. You know, that joint tenancy that vests upon death. Well, so I had a, I had a long-time client, and he, he had significant funds, and his wife died. And thereafter, I, I talked with him about updating his updating his plan, excuse me, and, you know, he had a caregiver. He was very close with this caregiver. So in spite of what I told him not to do, he went ahead and put his caregiver on all of his bank accounts.

Good.

So when he died unexpectedly, caregiver then had close to $1 million which was her property legally. Well, and that, that got the family's attention.

So yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, uh, how do you, how do you step in, especially when the person is of, you know, sound mind and able to make his own decisions? And right, but there is that risk there of being vulnerable and We don't know about exploitation, but there's always a risk there.

Yeah, well, and then you've got people, like you said, that just plain old take advantage of people, and they get that access, you know. Yeah, so, and I see that a lot, a lot too, unfortunately.

Yeah, of course, of course. Um, what are some of the conversations— I mean, as we talk about planning and preparation, what are some of the conversations, what are the topics that families need to wrestle with to avoid crisis later on? What should they do?

I think, I think sometimes it is having family members with challenges. Um, you know, if you don't particularly trust a child, um, what do you, what do you do with that child? Do you want that child to be in charge of your assets? Uh, do you want that child to be in charge of your estate? You know, more so, do you want them to get a large portion of money just outright? So there are things you can do in planning where you can hold those monies in trust. You can have someone supervise distributions over time, which can be much more beneficial to a person like that than giving them a big chunk of money, and it protects your estate. Uh, you know, what about people that are disabled? Or have, you know, benefits that they receive through the government, and those are, you know, based on income. If they, if you do not plan for that, you are going to, by giving them an inheritance or not doing anything, they're going to get booted off their benefits, and that can be hugely disruptive, especially if they're in a group home and say they're mentally disabled or, you know, a veteran that's receiving benefits through a program, if you don't plan, there's the danger of— it's not just about you, it's about the people that you leave behind. And I think those are some of those misconceptions, you know, they just don't know what they don't know.

Well, it's also easy to avoid or postpone or delay these conversations. They're, they're tough topics. They're tough topics when you, you're not sure about your children, if they're capable of managing your estate, or, um, you have a, you know, girlfriend or a boyfriend, and who's going to be involved. These are, these are tough subjects for families to wrestle with.

Absolutely. You know, and I tell people, if you, if you can't make the decision now, then let's put something in place, and then we can always change it, you know, we can think through these things, put something in place so protects against that, that main harm that might come, and we can, we can adjust. That's the other thing I see a lot, Dr. Joe, is people who have had a will that they've done, but it's 30 years old, you know, and it talks about your kids and, you know, having guardians for your kids and all this. Just, yeah, you know, it's not—

it's—

it just doesn't work anymore.

Yeah, it is. I think it's just tough to sit down and face these conversations because we know we're trying to postpone the inevitability of our death, and it's difficult. So I got a will, it's 30 years old, but it'll do. And people just don't It's difficult, and I think denial is very common. And I, believe me, I have a healthy respect for denial in older adults.

Yeah, me too.

You know, I would work in nursing homes, and I would come home sometime. And one day I came home, and I said to my wife, I said, you know, I can't tell the difference between denial and positive thinking. And she said in her inimitable way, Well, maybe there is no difference, you know, maybe positive thinking, only the good things that could happen and not considering some of the negative things. So it's hard. We can't take that denial away because that's a good way to, you know, deal with the anxiety.

Yeah, well, and, you know, to that, I sit down with people and I call my initial meeting with them more a strategy session because I want to know what they're concerned about, you know, primarily what's going on in their life, what does their family look like, you know, what would they do if they could do it, you know, so find out some of the things that they're thinking about generally. And then I, you know, I tell them that, you know, yes, we're talking about things that happen after you're gone, so, you know, I'll have a Strange sense of humor because I'm talking about death, dying, disputes about your stuff, and taxes. I'm such a joy to be around. Yeah, yeah, but I try to, you know, I try in that sense, I'm trying to be an advocate in helping people move through that process because, you know, it's, it's coming and I really want more people to have those things in place and be able to make decisions and not be forced with, here's the decision of what's going to happen to you because you can no longer, you know, ambulate and cook and take care of yourself. So now you're, you know, you're going into this room which you're sharing with a stranger and, you know, that's hard. It's hard.

Do you find it easier to take small steps in getting your clients to make these moves Or is it really necessary to kind of face them all at once and deal with it? I mean, I can see an advantage to both sides, but sometimes the small steps make it easier to change behavior rather than a, you know, a major sit-down, here's all the things we need to settle today.

Well, I'm a big proponent in, in mindset And I know that's a big part of what you, you do with your Living to 100 Club. I, I try to help people frame their mind in a better mindset as far as what it is I'm trying to help them do. And I think that really helps. Um, you know, sometimes there's some resistance. The other part of it is that's why I do the podcast, because I want people to hear from someone that just happens to be a lawyer, but is talking like a human being about these issues that are just so complicated. You know, even when it comes to more children, adult children, usually daughters of older adults that are ending up in these caregiving positions, that is, I mean, that is so stressful and I've been there, but I want people to have some resources available to them. So that they know when something like that happens what they can do, you know, and that they really need to take care of themselves. That's a piece that gets lost too. So I think those are the kinds of things just generally as more of an advocate that I've put together in my daily practice because I am concerned. You know, this is not something that's just a situation in my state. It's, it's, it's worldwide really, but you know, the United States is one of those countries that we are going to feel it, and it's not going to be very long from now. I think it's 2030, there'll be more people over 65 than any other age group, and we're already seeing crunches when it comes to finding appropriate care outside of the home. So I just don't think those things are really sustainable. And, and that's why I admire what you're doing. I, I think more of these communities, you know, fostering those communities where we have someone that we know, trust, and can rely on, and have a place where it's not in a hospital institutionalized kind of setting, is so much more healthy for people. You know, if they can do that.

Yeah, yeah. And I agree, I think mindset is, is so powerful because, you know, we can have a lot of talk in our heads, and the self-talk can be positive or negative or dreading or encouraging. So it's whatever that mindset is. So if you're addressing that, I think that's, that's a smart move. And it's also, you know, as you touched on, kind of making the plans today avoids the crisis tomorrow because when, you know, if things happen suddenly, it's so hard to make all the necessary moves after a stroke or after a fall or after, you know, some major loss, anything like that.

So, um, one of the places that I see referrals for— we call them conservatorships here, but guardianships of, you know, adults that are then disabled— is the hospitals. You know, someone gets in a hospital and they're not able to go home and they don't have someone to care for them, the hospital is, you know, petitioning the court to put a conservatorship in place.

Sure.

And I, I just, I don't want to see anybody get in a situation like that.

Yeah, yeah, that's the, uh, the move of last resort. We don't have anything in place, so here's where we are. Yeah. So you mentioned the, the podcast you do, Boomer Time Podcast. You've been doing this for some time, and what kind of, um, what kind of insights have you learned after talking to your guests?

And you're like, um, we, we touch it all. So I've, I've done everything from, you know, the danger of doing do-it-yourself wills to how to leave something to your pet Um, which I, I do a lot of pet trusts. People love their pets. And, um, you know, debacles at funerals and the stories of people that have just, you know, done outlandish things at funerals, how you can protect against something like that happening, you know, by putting something in place. Um, sensitive issues like driving Right? What's the difference between Medicaid and Medicare? I think there's so much confusion about that.

Yeah.

Well, you know, I just— there's so much to talk about, you know, and I, I just trying to take it in tiny little pieces where I can share stories, you know, and then some wisdom. And I think that does translate on, you know, a more general basis where hopefully people are able to take some things away and say, sure, yeah, that makes sense. I need to do something about that. I need to go talk to my parents about X, you know, and have the conversation as it needs to be framed, you know, not you're losing your mind, Mom, and we're going to put you in a— going to put you in assisted living. Like, that's not going to go over well.

Yeah, well, I, I agree. It's, um, so much of it is all about education. We, we know a lot about living longer and proper healthy aging steps to take. And more information we can share and learn from one another, I think the more informed decisions we can make.

Yeah, and I, I love sharing stories too of, of some of the, the lives, the journeys that, you know, now older adults have lived. You know, I so, I so admire the communities where they cherish their older adults.

Sure.

As being wise and being experienced and things like that. And so, you know, those stories are disappearing in a lot of respects. So I, I try to have people on that I know, or, you know, that I think are interesting, and, and share, share some time with them.

Yeah, we learn a lot from stories, don't we? Sure. Yeah, yeah, we can share them and we can learn as well. So, I know when we spoke earlier, you had this desire or this goal to be more of a kind of an advocate for older adults beyond your practice. I mean, you're doing remarkable work and helping. Thank you, Alson Family. What do you, what do you aspire to in terms of a advocate for seniors?

Um, well, this might seem crazy, but I tell you, I would love the opportunity to travel around and just have larger groups of people where we could talk about people's concerns, you know, whether it's a town hall, whether it's a meeting, you know, in a facility where we you know, we can decide what might be a better idea, you know, because I really think that most of what we're doing right now ain't gonna work in the long run. And I think that people who are in those circumstances, you can learn a lot from them, you know, whether it's about accessibility, whether it's about perception, you know, whether it's about their daily struggle. So I would really like to incorporate incorporate more of that in my advocacy work because I just see the number of people that just don't understand. And I don't want them to get stuck, you know, 10 years from now, 15 years from now, because the options for them at that point will be considerably less, in my opinion. And if we don't do something about, you know, changing the way we get around, making it more accessible, making housing more community-friendly as far as, you know, older adults, I think it gets harder to do that later on. So, you know, maybe I'm too much of an optimist, but, you know, Not at all, not at all, no, no. Yeah, I've got a couple clients that come to see me and they're sharp as tacks. One's 93, the other's 94, you know, and then I had two brothers that came in, their 98-year-old sister died and they served as co-executors. They were 94, 96. I just love it, you know, I just love it. And I want to be able to be a support to people like that, you know, it's just And, and the ones that are struggling, of course, but, but they need to be celebrated, you know. That's just— sure, yeah, they've seen a lot.

So put the spotlight on their successes and their strengths. Yeah, well, don't hesitate. I mean, keep on moving. That's a, that's a great aspiration. It's not an aspiration, it's, it's something that you just want to keep working at and growing and reaching, stretching. Sure. Yeah. So, um, can you give, um, one takeaway that you hope our listeners remember from this conversation?

I think that anything you want, anything you aspire to, you know, if you're 50 years old, it's not over. You got a whole another 50-plus years potentially available for you. What kind of life do you, you know, I would ask you, what kind of life do you want to lead moving forward? You know, what do you need to do to make that life possible? And what do you need to change in order to support that dream? Yeah. You know, I see a lot of people that don't have much mobility, you know, then that gets harder to do things. But I think if we are at a crossroads, which road do we want to take? Because it really is a choice. Right, sure, really is a choice. And the other thing I would say is don't assume that you don't need something. Find somebody— I'm not saying go to, you know, Mr. $99 a will deal down the street, but find somebody that will talk with you, that will answer questions, that you understand when they're telling you something. And get something in place. It doesn't have to be complicated, it doesn't have to be expensive, but put something in place because it's going to protect you and it's going to protect your loved ones.

Sure.

And I just think that's so, so important.

Great, that's great, great advice. Thanks.

Thank you.

Thanks. So, um, how can people learn more about your work? Tell us about— do you have a website? And tell us about your your podcast.

Sure, thanks, I appreciate that. Um, so I do have a website and it is nancykogar.com. That's my name, n-a-n-c-y-c-o-g-a-r.com. Uh, you can find a lot of information about me there. You can find my podcast, uh, it's a weekly podcast, so we try to cover an issue a week. Um, I'm looking forward to having you on my podcast as well.

Me too. Yeah.

Yeah, and, um, I've got a lot of resources there. I'm kind of a resource junkie, but I do find that so many people have trouble finding answers, even basic answers, that I'd never assume that they don't need that information. So I usually put resources there, and you can get in touch with me there too, um, if you want me to come share at an event, a community event, whether it's big or small, you can you can get in touch with me there about that. And if you're, you know, in, in my region, you're welcome to contact me there, and you can come in and we can talk about, you know, uh, what you got going on and, and what we might do to, to change that. So I appreciate that very much. And Boomer Time, like I said, you know, it's on, it's on YouTube. I gotta remember all this. YouTube, um, It's on my website, it's on Spotify, iHeartRadio. We're, we're growing, so, and I'd appreciate people check it out, and if you like it, subscribe and share with a friend.

So great. So nancykogar.com, and Boober Time is the podcast. Now I take it, um, you are limited to providing legal counsel to states where you're licensed, which is correct, Tennessee. So if people contact you from another state you really can't provide any, any legal information.

Not specifically. I do know a lot of other lawyers that I've, um, I had someone I referred to in Nevada recently. So, um, you know, there, if, if you send me an email, sometimes I can make a connection for you. But, but that is true. So from my lawyerly standpoint, I need to stay within my limits.

So yeah, yeah, I'm aware of that. As a psychologist, um, needs to be licensed in a state where you're providing services, correct? Yeah. And you have many other resources though on your website, so people can always access those resources.

Absolutely. I hope they do. So, and if there's something there that you're looking for that's not there, I love hearing from people. So, you know, reach out and, and it may make a great podcast.

So, great. Okay, nancykogar.com. Well, Nancy, thanks so much for this conversation. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I'm sure my audience enjoys it as well. Yeah, looks like—

I appreciate it.

Yeah, good, good. Excuse me. Looks like we're out of time for today, but before we wrap up, I just want to remind my listeners to visit my website, livingto100.club, for my blogs and my podcast library. You can visit my new community for connection and experiences. That's at livingto100.community. And if you're part of a senior living community, don't miss my Better, Longer, and Happier card deck series. You'll find this at livingto100.solutions with 12 different modules. It's a tool for promoting wellness, growth, and conversation Nancy, thanks again for joining us.

My pleasure.

Yeah, and thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in. Hope to see you next time.