Help for Seniors Transitioning to a New Home

Welcome to the Living to 100 Club Podcast. Here's our host, Dr. Joseph Casciani.

Welcome to all of our listeners tuning in to the Living to 100 Club Podcast. This is Joe Casciani, your host for this program. I'm very happy to welcome each of our listeners. As many of you know, these podcasts are recorded and are available within a week on the club website, livingto100.club. We focus on successful aging, longevity, and making it over the hurdles. And one of the best parts about hosting these conversations is bringing in guests to share valuable information with our listeners, information that makes us more informed, helps us to live longer and healthier. And inspires us to do better. We're going to be discussing helping seniors transition to a new home in our conversation today. We have two guests for our conversation. Let me start with a little background. Jamie Shapiro is the founder and owner of Silver Linings Transitions, a senior move management company. The company is affiliated with the National Association of Senior Move Managers, a leading organization for senior move managers in the US. Jamie's goal is to help find the silver lining for those facing a move and to be a resource for adult children who need to move their parents. Brian DeVore is the Director of Senior Services with Berkshire Hathaway HomeServices of California. He holds a designation as Senior Real Estate Specialist. He is the co-host of Senior Savers, a reality TV show that presents many services available for seniors and their families. Welcome to both of you to our program today.

Thank you very much. And I have to just say right off the bat, the other co-host of Senior Savers is here with us also. That's Jamie.

Oh, good to know. Okay, so we'll add that to your credentials, Jamie.

Thank you.

Okay, so I always like to begin our programs by asking our guests, in this case both guests, to tell us a little bit about the journey that brought you to where you are today, a snapshot, if you will.

Well, we only have, we only have what, 45 minutes or so? Let me give you the, okay, the very condensed version. So actually going on 17 years ago, in fact, I just had my scan today. I'm hoping it will be clean. I was diagnosed with thyroid cancer. I was 34 years old. I had a 1-year-old and a 3-year-old. And at the time, had to wait for pathology to come back to give me my diagnosis. There were things that were found in my lungs. And when you are 34 years old and you are evaluating your life, you know, you, you get to make decisions. And it was, it was that opportunity for me to, to realize that the path that I was on was not the path that I wanted to be on. And I wanted to make sure that when I leave this earth, I made a difference.. And so actually, the title of my company, Silver Linings Transitions, was what came from that experience because it was going through that time. And thankfully, I got what they call the good cancer. If you're going to get cancer, I got the one you want to have. But it was definitely a wake-up call for my life. And so, when I am working with— and we specialize in seniors, but we also do, like, for instance, divorcing clients. Who are also facing a transition and going through a move. So what I try to focus on is, is finding the good in the situation that you're in. And as I like to say to senior clients who might be, you know, the clients that Brian and I work with together, some of them are downsizing to senior communities, some of them are going to just easier to maintain homes. And, you know, some are staying in their home, but they just have too much stuff and it's become overwhelming and it's not safe. And it's just really focusing on all of the the good and all of the, the, the things that they have to look forward to. Like for instance, going into a senior community, they're probably going to be going to a place where all of their meals are made for them and you don't have to cook anymore. And, you know, let's just focus on what, what we, what we can look forward to. So that's the silver lining and that's the condensed, very condensed version of how I got here.

Sure. So a bit of a bumpy road for you and you, you've landed in a good place. Helping people find the good in all the things that are going on in their life. That's important. Yeah, thanks for that.

Sure.

Brian, a little bit about yourself?

Yeah, and I want to add something that Jamie left out of her story, which I think is kind of an important piece, was while she was doing some of this soul searching, it just so happens that the National Association of Senior Move Managers was having their annual conference in San Diego while she was trying to decide what she wanted to do with her life.. And it's just like, you know, we talk about karma a lot, she and I, and, you know, I'm not sure it was a coincidence that was happening, so that led her into that.

I don't think it was a coincidence. I think I was meant to be in that spot.

So thank you. Exactly.

Thank you. He's heard the story enough. He can fill in the gaps.

I can fill in all the gaps. My story is a little bit different. You know, I started in real estate about 18 years ago. Just wanted to get into something where I could have a more balanced life between work and my young children. And I worked with all different types of home buyers, home sellers, et cetera. But Jamie and I started working together about 5 or 6 years ago. We were friends first. And she said, "Brian, why don't we work together? You know, if they're selling the home, they have to move, et cetera." So we started working together. And I kind of, I like to say that that's sort of when I found my purpose is when I'm working with seniors and other people who are going through difficult transitions like divorce, but especially seniors. Because it's likely the last move they'll make of that size, meaning downsizing from a home of 30 years or 40 years and going through the lifetime of belongings and all those things. And the impact that we can have on their lives in some ways is immeasurable because it is such a huge transition. Oftentimes they don't have anybody helping them. So it's extremely gratifying to be able to provide that type of service for the people who really helped build our country. You know, we, Jamie and I have met some amazing people who've done some incredible things in their lives that have impacted all of us. And so it's, it's pretty cool. You know, I've read books that they've written, you know, I've visited places that they helped create. So it's just extremely gratifying. So that's kind of like my, my roundabout journey here.

Yeah. Yeah. And you've seen a lot of the contributions that your, your customers, your clients have made. Yeah. And, um, you know, I had a bunch of questions for you both and I'd like to start with you, Brian. And, you know, Jamie, feel free to add to anything that Brian says, but let me ask you, what are some of the reasons why seniors want to sell their homes? I mean, just to set the context here for our— Sure.

Usually the first and foremost reason is because the home has just become too much for them. You know, they've raised their family there. They needed 4 or 5 bedrooms because they had kids they were raising. But now, as they're empty nesters or beyond, they just don't need the space, and it becomes more difficult to take care of it. You know, I've met lots of clients who say, "I don't want to deal with having to replace the roof. I don't want to deal with dragging the trash cans out," you know, and that sort of stuff. So that's usually the impetus for them to want to start thinking about what is that next chapter going to look like, whether it's moving into a senior community, whether it's maybe buying a smaller, more manageable home, moving to an apartment. There's lots of different ways people can live. And I think that, uh, for— but again, first and foremost, it's usually because the home has just become too much for them.

So not necessarily forced to sell or downsize, but it's a choice. They're making this choice to kind of simplify their life and simplify their, their weekends, probably, and even during the week where they don't have to take care of all the chores and things that other age people do have to address.

Another thing that I find, uh, most of the moves that we do together, but not all, are people who are going into independent living. And they recognize that, you know, there are going to be physical limitations that come up, or they get a diagnosis diagnosis, or they have a spouse or a partner that might have a diagnosis, and they think, I don't want to be in my home dealing with all of this on my own. They need the support, they want the support. Some people, you know, want the social interaction. I think that's definitely been a big factor, you know, from COVID is that people who were so, you know, isolated, and now with communities opening up, you know, and they're just feeling like they've been alone in their homes, and maybe that's not the answer. And then one other thing that happens is, As people age and they need care in their homes, that's getting harder and harder to find and more expensive. So that's another reason. And one more that I'll share is, you know, that there's a lot of elder fraud, unfortunately. I mean, Brian, you were just talking about today clients who leased solar that should not have leased solar and leased it for more than they should have. And so they end up in a really vulnerable situation that maybe not owning a home we'll get them out of.

Yeah, yeah, that's an important point. They are vulnerable. We can be vulnerable at any age, but particularly someone who's not so aware of all the ins and outs of these, these decisions.

Yeah, I will add just real quickly, there was a recent survey that was done at 1,500 people aged 60 to 75, and it was about how they want to live their lives. 80% of people do want to stay in their home. They don't want to move to in assisted living type situation. Just because they want to though doesn't mean they necessarily can. And I think, you know, some of the things that Jamie just mentioned really goes to that. It's great if they can, if they have the resources, the ability, that's fantastic. But I think more people are realizing they may not have that ability to, or their family members are starting to realize that for them. And then, you know, that brings up a whole other set of issues as far as how the family works together to kind of make these decisions et cetera.

Sure. Yeah, that's a good point. So let's just consider what the options are. Then you mentioned senior communities, downsizing to a smaller home, downsizing to an apartment, not necessarily a skilled nursing facility unless that appears to be necessary for medical reasons. Any other, any other options that you might have?

Joe, I want to throw out on the skilled nursing facility. That is actually not a place that somebody goes to live. They go to a senior community, they go to assisted living, they go to memory care, but skilled nursing is where someone goes when they are in rehab from an injury or an illness or a fall. And, um, it's one of our pet peeves. You know, they used to call nursing homes when, when Brian and I were growing up, maybe when you were growing up too, Joe, you know, my great-grandma was in a nursing home. That is not what it, you know, and so when we hear skilled nursing, that's, that's kind of what a nursing home is now. It's not, it's not the same.

So I, it's a very Yeah, it's very specific to someone's, you know, whether it's an injury or rehabilitation or what have you. But there is, there is something called a boarding care. And a boarding care is where there might be 8 or 10 beds in the home. So it's a very condensed version of an assisted living facility in that they don't have— they have the meals, they have the care, they don't have all the activities, the movies and transportation. As much, but it's also less expensive too. So that is another option that people may wind up going to depending on what level of care they need. But as Jamie said, usually the first step would be an independent living type situation, and then the next step would be maybe an assisted living if the memory care is needed. There are some communities that are just independent living. There are some that have all levels of care. There's rental communities, there's buying communities. I mean, we could spend the whole next hour talking about all the differences and so forth. So there are a myriad of options that are available for people. Unfortunately, it gets overwhelming sometimes. So that's where we bring in other professionals who can help our clients with those decisions.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So there are a lot of considerations, of course. So what are, what are the options, the affordability? And you know, when I was mentioning the nursing home, I, I understand that it's not a choice that somebody says, I want to go live in a nursing home. I understand that it's a lot of medical reasons, whether it's short-term or long-term, right? That does— that is an outcome sometimes for individuals who can't manage on their own if there's dementia or something in the picture. So what do we need to be aware of when you're talking with a client helping them to relocate?

I think that number one is knowing what the options are, knowing what their budget is, and what is their— what are their short-term goals and their long-term goals. And that's again where we bring in other professionals who will assist us with that. You know, Jamie and I actually talked about going into that sort of line of work, but we realized it's a very specialized set of skills that people need to be able to work with seniors who are making this type of transition to decide where they should go. There's so many communities out there and so many boarding care communities. To know them all is just— it's a full-time job. So again, we like to bring in those other professionals who will help them look at their financial side, look at the care side, look at what their needs and wants are. How independent are they? How much, you know, care do they need now versus will they need? If there is a spouse And are they both at the same level of care? Are they both independent? Is one needs assisted and one needs memory care? And there are some communities that will allow the spouses to be together, some that don't. So there's a lot that goes into this and it becomes overwhelming, which is one of the reasons why I think some people choose to just not even do it. There's a lot of reasons. Jamie and I have talked all kinds of times about why people stay stuck, and that's one of them is because there are so many options. But the good news is there's people like us who can help guide them to the people who will help them make the decisions as we help them make the transition.

So how do you know when you need to bring in a specialist, financial specialist, or somebody to assess cognitive functioning? How do you know self-care needs? Can you just see it when you go into the person's home, or do you do some interviewing?

I would, I would say for the most part, the people come to us, they've already decided where they're going. That's the majority of the time. And so then we are just brought in as the resource and the team, and a lot of our referrals come from the community that they're moving into that work with us and know how, you know, what we do and what we provide. And also more and more placement people, the professionals that we're talking about that help people decide where to go. So that's typically how we're brought into the conversation. When it doesn't happen that way, then what we'll do is we'll bring in placement person. And, you know, we have people who evaluate their— I'm trying to think, like gerontologists and people that look at the whole life care transition. And we have those resources as well. So, you know, every, every individual is, as you know, we are so different, and we have different needs. And, you know, so that's really kind of how we put it out.

That's new information. That's good to know that there are these placement specialists that really add to the picture. They fill in some of the gaps, they answer some of the questions that you might have.

One of the things that—

though, I'm sorry, Joe, I just say it helped the customer with that decision-making too. Just present the realities. Look, you want A, but A is probably not going to be right. Let's look at B, right?

Yeah, it really opened my eyes when I got into this sort of line of work, this industry, so to speak. Um, of how many resources there are out there that people don't know exist. And why don't they know? Because they're not seniors. You know, you only need it when you need it. I didn't know the divorce resources until I went through a divorce because I didn't need them. So a lot of times, you know, this kind of sneaks up on people and then they have to make decisions really quickly. One of the things that Jamie and I really try to do is educate people to make proactive decisions versus knee-jerk when you have to do it. But there's so many resources that are available— nonprofit organizations, professionals, aging life care, as Jamie mentioned, gerontologists, the whole nine yards. There's a lot of good resources out there that people need to know about. So we're sort of on a crusade to really provide that education.

Sure. So where can people get that information about resources that are available?

They can watch Senior Savers. So we made two episodes of our TV show A few years ago, I was actually visiting a client, a senior community, kind of looking around and saying, you know, if more people knew what senior living was really all about, they might consider it. But of course, they don't want to go into the community to see what it's like. So we wanted to bring it to them. So I texted Jamie and said, let's create a TV show about what we do. She said, great. I knew someone who did it. And we were able to not only show people what it is that we do to help seniors transition, but also what senior communities are like and what other resources are out there for them. So in the first episode, it was about a couple who had already decided they wanted to move to a community and they knew which one. So it was really about their lives and about the work that I did to help sell the home and mostly about the work that Jamie and her team did to help them transition, you know, downsize into their home. The second episode, we introduced a lot of other resources because the couple didn't know that they want to move to a community yet or move to another home, et cetera. So we walked them through the process that a lot of people are doing right now who are in their 60s, 70s, 80s. They're going through those decisions. Their kids are helping them go through those decisions. So we brought in those resources to really display what's out there.

We're—

she and I are both very proud of those two episodes. They're both very different. And impactful, I think. And people can go to our YouTube channel, just go to YouTube and look up Senior Savers TV, and you can see both episodes there.

Senior Savers TV on YouTube. Yeah, I was going to ask how to access that. That's great information. That's a great resource, more for the adult children, or maybe as often for the adult children as for the individuals themselves. Yeah, well, let's talk about making that move and how to adjust to giving up a lot of those treasures, the furniture, the belongings. How do we begin to downsize all of our possessions?

Wow, that's not a big question at all.

I have to share with you, this is, this is so interesting. I was actually writing a blog about this just before we got on, on this call because I actually have downsized. I went through a divorce and left the marital home and went to a smaller space and also lost my, my stepfather who raised me in the home that I grew up in and had to clear the house last year. So I thought that I understood what my clients were going through because, you know, I was able to cherry-pick the things out of my house that I wanted and go into, you know, a smaller place, just like they would to go into a Community. And I, you know, was able to go through my childhood home and take anything that I wanted to ship from Florida to California. But, and here is the big but, I am going to give you the punchline to my next blog, which is going to be, I apologize to all my Clients, because what happened was my ex-husband bought me out of the house. So, I was able to leave the china and the crystal and the ketubah. We are Jewish. We had a wedding certificate, and I was able to leave my children's rooms intact, and I was able to just go, and I didn't have to deal with anything. I just, I was able to leave it. So he's selling the house, he needs to clear it out, and he calls me and says, you know, I need you to come and help me. Two of our daughters— my— our middle daughter just left for our— our— I'm sorry, two of our children are in college. A middle daughter just left for college two weeks, three weeks ago. So this is a fresh wound for me. I'm, you know, and I've got a 13-year-old still remaining, but going through their childhood rooms where they are no longer living in those rooms, and also trying to figure out what to do with the china and the crystal and the things that I— they don't spark joy for me. I didn't want to have the china and the crystal that was given to me and my ex-husband, you know, for our wedding. Now, the first thing to do, so to answer that question easily, I went to my children and I said, hey, do any of you want this? And, and I think most of your, your listeners will probably know that the answer is going to be no, because we are living very very different lives than, than our parents and then our grandparents. And even our Brian and our children aren't using the china and the crystal we all registered for. I mean, Brian and I took a typewriter to college. You know, we're, we're in a different generation. So they didn't want it. And so that, that left me with, okay, what do I do with it now? So what I did, and this really helped me, and it's what I recommend, is I posted it on Facebook. To all of my friends and family and I said, you know, this is my marital china and crystal. I am no longer using it. If you know someone who would enjoy having it, I would love to give it to them. Now, I could have sold it, but it felt better for me to just put it out there and give it to somebody. As it turns out, and this is such a crazy story. Can I share it, Brian?

Briefly.

The person who asked for it, her daughter had just gotten married and they needed, they had not gotten china or crystal. So the woman who is friends with me happens to be, this is going to be really hard to follow, happens to be Brian's ex-wife's new husband's ex-wife. Can you follow that?

Yeah, I got that.

So I mean, we kind of kept it in the family. So good for me to know that it was going to somebody that would love it. And I think that, you know, that was what was really helpful for me when I was going through it was, you know, the first thing we always want to do is ask our children or our grandchildren, do you want this? And we need to be prepared for the answer to be no. When my grandmother passed away unexpectedly, I was her only grandchild and my mom wanted me to take her china. Well, there were a lot of things of my grandmother's that I loved, but I wasn't even at that point using my own china. I really didn't want my, I didn't even like my, I mean, I loved my grandmother's china. I probably would have taken it and used it for everyday dishes. Dishes. But, you know, back in the day, they, they made the china that you couldn't put in the dishwasher. And, you know, so anyway, I did not take my grandmother's china. And, and that is often what is happening. So people need to understand that just because their, their belongings aren't wanted doesn't mean they aren't loved or they won't be remembered. And that's a really hard thing. And what I also try to tell adult children is sometimes just take it. They don't need to know that you're not going to use it. Just take it, get it away from them, take it for donation., but it feels better to think that you're giving it to someone who will love it and appreciate it than it does to just call Goodwill. Um, there are other options. So, so the first is always to give it to a loved one. If it's something that's saleworthy and it makes you feel good to sell it, then by all means sell it. And we have all those resources on our website. There are some other great things like Facebook has a page called Buy Nothing and it's localized to a neighborhood where you post something on this site and you have to be approved to be on it. And then it's like, who wants this? And it's— theory is you don't have to buy anything. There's also freecycle.org where you can say, I have this available, please come and pick it up. And we're keeping things out of landfills and someone else is benefiting from their use. So there are lots of resources that people don't even know exist. Craigslist has Curb Alert. But, you know, the reality is we're living longer. We're dealing with a society of people who don't want to accumulate the way that, you know, subsequent— the greatest generation, you know, they stockpiled and they bought the yadros and the Hummels because they thought that there would be value in those items if they held on to them. And, you know, we— no one collects yadros and Hummels anymore, and there's no value in any of that. So we have to just recognize that we're generationally different. This generation would rather, you know, have a photo that they can put on social media and an experience than a tchotchke, you know, or a memento from a vacation. So it's just, you know, recognizing that times are different and you, you know, you will be loved even if your stuff isn't wanted.

Yeah. Yeah, that's good, Jamie. I mean, the emotional connection we have to a lot of these belongings, our collection of china or crystal or whatever, Most of the time, other people won't have that same connection to it. So the owner is kind of surprised, "Well, gee, why don't you appreciate my collection of books, classic books?" And the adult children, the adult son says, "No, Dad, I just don't want." So we have that connection to it, and it's hard to accept the fact that other people don't have the same interest.

Yeah, well, and in Jamie's case, you know, she was going through the, the family stuff, but she doesn't have nearly as much stuff as the clients that we work with, you know, who've collected for years, you know, stuff they've had from— it was from their parents' stuff and their grandparents' stuff. I was in a home the other day that had, um, a weaving loom that was part of the family for generations. And what— where is that gonna go? And who's gonna take that? It's a lot. And unfortunately, a lot of people don't have access to some of the resources that Jamie mentioned. You know, they're technologically a little more challenged. So they really need services like what Jamie provides and her team does where they kind of help them go through their stuff and a third, neutral third party. Because a lot of times the kids and the parents, you know, the kids can't say no or they say no too much. And, you know, oh, you don't love me. And, you know, all that kind of stuff. Need that referee in the middle who can help make that process easier.

Another thing that I really want to make sure I mention, Joe, have you heard of Swedish death cleaning?

No.

Okay, so it's actually not from Sweden, but whatever, this is the reason that it is. But it's basically for the sandwich generation. It's the people who have either moved their parents and have had to go through the downsizing process, or whose parents have passed and they had to get rid of all of their things. And these people have adult children, and they think, I am not going to do to my adult child what was done to me. Me, I'm going to proactively go through my belongings as if I have passed, but I'm going to deal with this stuff now. And I give some tips on, you know, the best ways to Swedish death clean. But I definitely think it's something that, that your listeners should be aware of, um, where they are proactively, where they have the chance to, you know, like for instance, write on the back of something that was important to them and, and, and let, and let family members know what's there. Just like I sort of did that when I was, when I was leaving the family house and kids were still living there, um, I was able to say, anybody want my Girl Scout sash? Anybody want my prom corsage? Anybody, right? And they didn't want it, you know, because it had really no value to them. I photographed it and I put it away, but at least I got to share my story with them, which is, I think, so much a part of what we want.

Yeah, that's part of the letting go process too, right, to share the story. Now, that was Swedish death cleaning, D-E-A-T-H or D-E-B-T?

DEATH, D-E-A-T-H, Swedish Death Cleaning. Yep.

Great. The ones before that, you said Buy Nothing from Facebook, and the second one after that was free—

Freecycle.org. Instead of recycle, it's free. And Craigslist Curb Alerts, another good one.

I like that, Freecycle.org.

I want to add on to something Jamie was talking about with Swedish Death Cleaning, and really the basis of it is We don't want our kids to go through what we had to go through with our parents. So we're being proactive. That really goes into all kinds of things. Financial planning, estate planning. You know, when people die without a will, without a trust, and the adult children have to go through the whole year-long probate process. And so now we're seeing people, I think more of our— of Jamie's and my generation, we're dealing with that with our parents. Like, we're not going to want to deal with that. So they're hopefully being more proactive in how they plan for their retirement. How they plan, you know, with their legal situations and so forth. And so we're hoping we can, again, keep providing that education to get people to be more proactive. You know, we always talk— Jamie and I talk about how people want to bury their heads in the sand. You know, it's not going to happen to me. We talk about— Jamie and I went to a thing where there was someone— they had something called death cafes. And that's a whole other issue. And we should introduce you to the person who does those. I think she'd make a great guest.

Absolutely.

But in Jamie's group, one of the ladies said, yeah, well, why are you gonna steal my, my, my— go ahead, you do it, you do it.

So there was a woman that was at the event that was subbing for a regular person that goes to this networking. And the networking thing, which was in the senior space, was, um, they were— they brought in the woman for a mini Swedish Death Cafe. And so we're all going around talking about, you know, what's going to happen when we die, and, you know, what do we want for our funerals. And anyway, so this, I'd say, mid-20-year-old says, well, if I die And I put my hand on her hand and I'm like, I've got some news to break to you.

It's not an if. And so, but people, we talk about, they put their head in the sand. They don't want to talk about these uncomfortable topics. Doesn't mean they're going to go away. So the Swedish death cleaning and all the other stuff that we try to do to help people get prepared, um, even with, it's not my senior clients when it's my first-time buyers, get a trust, put the home in the trust, you know, all these things we're trying to do to help people get prepared, you know, for down the line.

Yeah, we learned from experience when it's a tough process to find all those records, and I had a relative like that and we went through that in my family. So the next generation says, "No, I'm going to be a little bit more proactive." So I think that's where a lot of these other organizations are coming from. I can be more proactive and avoid imposing all of this burden on my successors, my children.

Yeah, I think it's safe to say that, that all of us and most people we know know somebody who's had to go through that with their family. And so, like you said, it's a learning opportunity.

Yeah, I heard an interesting story. Someone was advised— she had to downsize from a large home, and she was advised to— she didn't want to give her furniture up. I have all this special European furniture, antiques, I don't want. And somebody advised her, well, just take pictures of it and at least you'll have the memories to look at when you look at the pictures. And she said, I just, you know, I did that. I took the pictures, I made myself an album, and months later, years later, I have not looked at the album once. So, you know, it's the process of going through it more than the content, more than the outcome. It's the necessary stages that, that we have to go through to process that loss and let go of some of those things from our past. Hard to do, but it's necessary.

You know how many people have storage units?

Yeah.

And they never even visit them.

You know, I love, I love the, um, the Buddhist non-attachment. I mean, and I've really, I think this business especially has, has given me that freedom. I went to Hawaii on a vacation over the summer and my boyfriend was like, what do you want to bring back with you? And I said, nothing. You know, I don't, I don't need to accumulate any more stuff, but just when we can let go, it is, it is so helpful to just to try to not be attached to things.

And once you've had your home broken into, you learn that lesson pretty well. Yeah. Don't get too attached to things. Yeah. Well, yeah. Let me ask about— you, you mentioned earlier there are sometimes when a spouse is maybe at a different level of functioning from the other spouse. Maybe a couple has got to move or wants to move, and maybe the husband is really at a lower level and the wife is pretty high, high-level functioning. How do you, how do you manage that? How do you, how do you approach those situations? Are we always going to steer into a kind of a community where they have multiple levels, or are there other options?

I think that it's not one size fits all. There are different types of— there are different communities that will offer the ability for the couple to stay together in independent living. One gets more care. Maybe one is in the memory care portion, the other one's in, in assisted living. And some communities don't have that option. One of the types of communities that is out there, they're called CCRCs, and they have buy-ins where they can both be in the same, you know, community from independent all the way to memory care and even skilled nursing. There's a lot of different options. Generally, Jamie and I won't broach that subject. We usually are brought those, those people from the placement professional or so forth. We're kind of explaining the situation and what's going on, and then I'd always take someone back to a placement professional to help make that decision, find out which options are going to be best for them, because I don't feel equipped to really, you know, help them with that portion.

Yeah, that's good to know. There are different options. It's not always a one-size-fits-everybody.

Yeah, right, for sure.

Yeah, and I think it's important to note that, um, that continuum of care— that what you use, CCRC, as a term, and I'm having been a public relations major, I don't like jargon. It means continuing care retirement community. So, it offers all levels of care. And that some people, like what I will tell you in our business, we've had some clients, we've moved them, you know, 4 times from different communities because they went into a community where, you know, they went in initially into independent, then they needed assisted, then they needed, you know, memory care. And then we've, you know, you know, had to take care of the house when they've passed. And, and some people will choose to go to a community where they can stay for all stages, and we'll do a move within the community. And some get to stay and they bring care into where they are. So like I said, it's all going to be based on your budget, what you're looking for. But, you know, knowing that that is an option and how that factors into, you know, aging experiences.

Yeah, I can see where moving within the same campus is a lot easier than moving across town. So if you have to go from assisted to skilled or memory care, it's easier if you're in the same community.

The hardest move is absolutely from a family home into independent, and I would say that's about 80% of the work that we do. We absolutely do the other ways, but it's— it isn't as traumatic. They don't need as much help. A lot of times family can take care of it, but, you know, there are also orphan seniors who, you know, don't have adult children or adult children live far away or don't have the ability themselves, or maybe their children are in their 70s or 80s and just can't take it on.

What about divorcing couples? I've heard recently that there are more seniors, say over 60, getting divorced than ever.

The gray divorce.

Yeah, the gray divorce. How does that impact your work with them and your ability to help them?

Well, what's wonderful is that people are living longer. And now that we are living longer and we're, you know, when we're in marriages and, you know, Brian and I have both been through divorces. So when you're looking at your partner and thinking, I don't want to spend the rest of my life with you, people are, you know, going ahead and going through with divorce. And I have had this experience in my senior move management business when I am handling a divorce or we are handling a divorce. For seniors. And it's a little more challenging, kind of the way that I described with the empty nester. I had a client who was leaving the family home and her children had moved out, and they had— she had been holding on to, you know, their childhood belongings. And now it's like, okay, who's going to take those childhood belongings? And so it does— that part can hit a little harder because, you know, for our divorcing clients, when they still have children at home. And it's going to be okay, who takes this Lego set and who takes this Lego set? It doesn't, it doesn't hit as hard as, you know, that empty nest. I'm facing life on my own, having either had children, you know, having had a partner and then children and a partner and then a partner and now alone. So, you know, but they have a lot of the same needs in terms of they need to sell a home, they need to typically downsize, you know, go through their belongings. And I have even done a lot of inventory division, which we do for families as well. You know, when there's been, uh, when a loved one is either moving or has passed away, you know, they, they always say weddings and funerals bring out, you know, the worst in people. Um, I had that in my own family where I had cousins where the police had to be called over my aunt's belongings. So anyway, you know, it's just, it's, it's, it's different challenges, but, you know, definitely It's the gray divorce is a big space that people need to know that's what it's called. And that's what's happening.

Yeah, it's happening. It's happening. So what are the toughest things to let go of in your experience when you observe families who are transitioning from their home? What's the, what's the biggest hit for them or what do they struggle with the most in your experience, your observation?

I would say it's aspirational items. I think it's items that define to find who they were. You know, like a lot— we deal with a lot of professors who've done a lot of, you know, research and they don't want to let go of their libraries. But also, you know, you have hope for things that you wanted to do with your life and, and the reality sets in, oh, I didn't ever do this. And then I also think, you know, family heirlooms, when you've held on to something that belonged to your parents or your grandparents and, you know, realizing that it's maybe not wanted. Yeah.

And I think also too, you know, I also look at the family home as one of those things they have to let go, um, because that's where they created all those memories. That's where they had the libraries, where they raised their children, played with their grandchildren, had Christmas or Hanukkah or what have you. Um, it's the— we call it the marital museum when it comes to divorce, but for seniors, it's their life home. It's the museum of where all, all their experiences were, all the memories were. So releasing the home is a big challenge for a lot of seniors. There's a lot of emotional weight that goes with it. And we really don't— we don't— we try not to take that lightly, try to help guide them along the way. We know what the outcome could look like. We know that, you know, lots of people we've worked with who have transitioned well. Are appreciative of the opportunities they had with their home, with their belongings and stuff, but they've moved towards their new tomorrow with their new life. It's not always an easy transition. You know, there are some things they'll hold on to more than others. In, in the first episode of Senior Savers, one of the ideas that Jamie had for our clients, because they had a lot of antique furniture and so forth, was she created a memory book, pictures of the items. And so it's a coffee table book, and every day if she wants to, she can pick it up and see the things that she had. So it's not the same, but there's some creative ways to, you know, ease the process along.

Yeah, so that's a major move when we look at selling a house that we've lived in for 40, 50 years or more, even the homes that came from our parents or grandparents. That's a major movement. Jamie, I'm thinking about what you were just mentioning, the, uh, the aspiration, the hopes I think that it probably puts us in touch with some of the disappointments too, that we didn't accomplish certain goals or we didn't reach certain destinations. And that move kind of might bring that back to the forefront. So it's, it's, um, heavy duty. I can appreciate that.

It is. And you know, having just gone through this experience and I sh— I, first of all, I cried a lot last week, but interestingly, my, my 13-year-old daughter lived in that house for 9 years. So that's the only house she remembers living in and she was really upset, you know, last night, because last night was when they moved out. You know, so we do have these memories and these attachments. And it is really, it is so hard. And having, you know, someone to support you when you go through that, I mean, is whether it's company like ours or just a friend, but, but it is, it is, it's hard to let go, to be disappointed, to, you know, just, you know, that's, I think, you know, that's one thing I took a death and dying class, a sociology class in college. And so stuck with me. So I was 18 years old, and that life is really about loss. I mean, you, you know, I'm now wearing glasses, and 3 years ago, I could see the screen, and I didn't need glasses, but my eyesight is starting to go. And, you know, we lose our friends, and we lose— I mean, it's— and so, like I said, going to this whole non-attachment thing, if we can learn to non-attach and just be in the experience that we're in, in this moment, and it just makes it easier.

Yeah, that's what the Buddhists say, life is suffering, right?

Yeah, hopefully it doesn't have to be. That, that's so sad.

No, it's, uh, not inevitable, but we do have to face those bumps and we get beyond them, right? We don't let the emotions control us. That's what I keep saying. We, we respect the emotions and we grieve and deal with it, and then we move beyond it.

I think for me, thinking of, of Earth as Earth's Earth school and our life as Earth school, and what is this experience here to teach me. And, you know, and I love— Rumi has a quote about welcoming, you know, all of the visitors and all of the emotions into our life and creating space and welcoming the grief and welcoming the happiness and just knowing that it's all transient. Yeah, so wise. I think that was, that was the gift of having had, you know, cancer for me.

Sure. Yeah, many things are transient. Yeah, that's So we're out of time. Let me ask both of you, what's, what's the message you'd like to leave with our audience? What would you want our audience to take away from our conversation today?

So I would say that I have found, especially the greatest generation, they don't like to ask for help. They're very proud and they want to do things on their own and that, you know, that we We love to give help, so we should give people the gift of allowing them to help us. And when we, when we do that, you know, it softens any experience that we're in. So I would say that's what I would leave people with.

Good point. It's okay to reach out and ask for some help. Yeah. Right.

And I would say too, for me, it's people I think are stronger than what they think they are sometimes. And you know, it's kind of up to us to, to help them see that they can make these transitions. They can, you know, work through these emotions, and life can continue to be good, can even get better in some cases. You know, so, you know, living to 100 and more, we are living longer. Embrace every opportunity you have to live every moment of it.

Yeah, yeah, good point. I like to emphasize that as well, Brian, about digging into our reserves for that strength and fire that sometimes gets covered up or blocked or suppressed, locked away, whatever, but it's there, right? We always have that determination, that motivation, that resilience, that fire, and we can get back up. We're knocked down, but we can get back up. So that's, that's a good point. Thanks for bringing that up.

Yeah, and I love what you're doing. That was why I was so excited to connect with you, because Brian and I are both 51 now, so, you know, we hope that we're gonna get way—

halfway there.

Yeah, exactly. Well, middle age for us.

Yeah, that's what AARP is saying. We live half of our lives over age 50, so let's continue that.

Yeah, all for it.

Well, it looks like we're out of time, but before we wrap up, I just want to remind our listeners about a few items. I'm pleased to announce a co-sponsor for our podcast with the program A Mighty Good Time. Are you looking for ways to engage and stay active? Check out aMightyGoodTime.com. A Mighty Good Time is a one-stop shop for events and activities for those 50 and over. It's free to search and it's free to post. AMightyGoodTime.com. Also, be sure to visit our website and see the option to work with Dr. Joe, that's me, for one-on-one conversations about managing setbacks, overcoming a negative outlook, and getting back to feeling engaged and motivated again. Visit the Work with Dr. Joe page on our website and see the options available. You can pick up a copy of my book on Amazon, Living Longer Is the New Normal. I think that whatever age you're at, inspiration and a positive mindset can be put to good use. That's my message in the book. And, uh, be sure to sign up for our email list on the website for announcements and newsletters. With reliable information and resources about moving forward. So thanks to both of you so much for being a guest on our show today. For those who might want to contact you, Jamie and Brian, how can they do that?

So they can call me at 760-522-1624. Again, that's 760-522-1624, and the company is Silver Linings with an S Transitions with an S dot they can find it on the web.

And for me, I have the easiest cell phone number there ever was, I think: 760-908-3838. Super easy. And my web address: www.devore— which is D-E-V-O-R-E— realtygroup.com.

Great. Silver Linings Transitions— is that .com?

It is. Yeah.

And devorerealtigroup.com. Well, thanks so much to both of you again for being a guest on the program. It was great. I know our audience will get a lot out of it, so I appreciate your being a part of it. And thanks to all of our guests for tuning in. I hope to see you next time.

Hi, this is Suzanne Newman, host of the Answers for Elders podcast and radio show. We are the North Star that guides you through the complicated journey of senior care with trusted experts in money, law, living solutions, and more. So join us on this station, your favorite podcast channel, or just go to answersforelders.com. Meet the wayshowers who will help your journey go a lot easier.