Ketogenic Diets and How They Reduce Cognitive Decline

Hello and welcome to the Living to 100 Club podcast and another premium episode. Thanks to all of our dedicated listeners for tuning in. I'm your host, Dr. Joe Casciani, and here's today's episode. Well, hello to everyone joining us today on our program. You're listening to one of our premium episodes on the Living to 100 Club, and I'm your host, Joe Casciani. Each week, our conversations educate and inspire. Helping you get the best out of all the years we're given, regardless of what obstacles come our way. Premium subscribers have access to all episodes, both the 2 public and the 2 premium episodes every month. Thank you for being a subscriber. Your support allows us to continue this mission without sponsors. We hope you're receiving value from every conversation with our experts, presumably much greater value and the price of a subscription. On today's podcast, we discuss the topic of ketogenic diets and the beneficial effect they have on reducing cognitive decline in older adults. Our guest is Nicole Laurent, a licensed mental health counselor and certified in nutrition and integrative health. We discuss the type of diet to produce ketones and the effect ketones have as a fuel to create brain health. Ketogenic diets are used in a number of medical conditions in addition to cognitive impairment, including insulin resistance and mental disorders. First, a little background. Nicole Laurent has been a licensed mental health counselor in Washington State for the last 15 years. In the last 5 years, has integrated nutritional therapies into her practice with her patients. Her education includes an MA in clinical psychology from Argosy University, a postgraduate certificate in nutrition and integrative health from Maryland University of Integrative Health, and additional medical training in helping patients use ketogenic dietary therapy as a treatment for mental illness and neurological issues. She was recently one of 7 recipients of the 2022 Metabolic Mind Award given by the Bazooki Brain Research Fund and the Milken Institute for her past work and commitment to supporting the study and use of these interventions in brain health. She works in private practice and assists people through an online program to increase accessibility to these treatments. Nicole, welcome to our program.

Thank you for having me, Joe.

Well, you're very welcome. I'm looking forward to our talk today. I, I always like to open by asking our guests to tell us a little bit about the journey. I gave your background, a brief background, but tell us about the, the highlights that brought you to where you are today.

Yeah, well, I developed a chronic pain condition, uh, when I was in graduate school And I, long story short, by the end of all the medications and detoxification of those medications, there had been a huge toll on my cognitive function. So when I was done with that, I, when I look back at my level of impairment, I met criteria for stage 1 Alzheimer's disease in terms of impairment.

Wow.

After that ordeal, I was in really bad shape. With it, and it got a little bit better, but not very much. So the discrepancy between my past functioning and the functioning by the time I had got done with that was quite vast. And so I was listening to podcasts. Thank goodness for you podcast hosts out in the world sharing all your information, because I came across one talking about ketogenic diets and how it was being used for cognitive function, and that piqued my curiosity, and I kept listening and learning, and I went ahead and I managed to implement one appropriately, and the lights just turned back on. Just that's the only way I can describe it is the sensation. And it took me probably a year to get back to my former functioning, and I would say possibly surpass it in some ways. But as a licensed mental health counselor, I was also struck by the effects it had on mood. So I wouldn't have characterized myself as anxious in any way, but there really is an anti-anxiety effect with the ketogenic diet that we can talk about more that is really profound. And I just kept thinking, "Boy, my patients, as a mental health counselor, really need to know about this." Sure. But, you know, we are licensed in a particular lane and we aren't allowed to talk about certain things outside of our expertise.

Right.

So I went back to school and I got a little bit more education about it, and I was able to start to do this work with patients and clients for mood disorders. But also, you can't have a neurological disorder and not necessarily have mood issues, and you can't have mood issues without the neurological component. Right. Sure. So I get to work with people with both of those components. Having them to differing degrees, individuality. And that's where I am today.

Well, can you tell us a little bit about the cognitive impairment, the effects you were experiencing? What was going on?

Yeah, so I always say I was just in bad shape. It's hard to describe. So before the worst part of the— I had to go through an experimental detoxification protocol because I was one of those people that they could not safely get off the medications that they had originally put me on for my pain disorder. My pain disorder was resolved for several years, had an operation that fixed it, but I was still stuck on these medications. And so even before that, I had begun to not recognize faces. So a couple came into my counseling office and I did not remember them. And they said, Nicole, do you not remember meeting us? We came in a few months ago about daughter. So this was the parents of one of my clients, and I did not remember them at all. And I was just mortified and shame and all that other stuff. So even before that detoxification protocol, I had started to forget faces. And then after, it was much worse. I couldn't drive without navigation. I did the thing where you often make up words because you can't find the words. So I would make up those words. I was starting to move words around in sentences that didn't make sense. I could not follow a recipe. So the time it took from reading the ingredient that was needed to turning around to do it, I would forget what the ingredient was, have to go back, try to find my place. And so more and more, my husband would be, you know, he just did all the things. Because once your ability to plan goes away, you really have a hard time kind of functioning. Yeah. So very tired, always overwhelmed. There wasn't much of a stopgap. I mean, I didn't say mean and awful things, but I would often say silly things because they would just come to my mind and then right out my mouth they would go type of thing. So, yeah, I was quite impaired.

Sure.

Quite young to be that impaired. Right. I'm 51 now, and that was about 6 years ago.

Yeah, those are some pretty striking effects. Do you attribute those to the pain that you're experiencing or the medication?

I, I attribute those to the medication.

The medication.

So the medications, pain medications also have, often have hormone disrupting effects. They affect metabolism. Once you start to affect brain metabolism, that sets off neurodegenerative processes. We know this from the medications that we often use with psychiatric populations, right? That cognitive dysfunction continues over time. And, you know, a lot of the medications that they use for pain, they also use for psychiatric disorders. They also often use for Alzheimer's disease. And these medications, while they help in the short term, can compound problems later because they affect brain metabolism.

So you had to go through this experimental detox program to safely get off the pain medication.

Correct.

Yeah. And that's when you decided to, well, learn more about diets and how diets might be able to make a constructive change for you.

Yeah, I came across it. I came across that information just pure luck.

Yeah. Wow. So let's jump right into this discussion about ketones. So tell us, what are ketones and why do we need them in our diets?

So as we age, we tend to become insulin resistant. So unless we are very, very athletic our whole lives and very, very active, and there's different, differing definitions of what that is. And even sometimes when we are very active, we become insulin resistant. And this happens because we live in a very high carbohydrate environment. And so our pancreas is constantly pushing out more and more, higher and higher levels of insulin in order to deal with the amount of carbohydrates that we eat, that we have access to. And what ends up happening is that different tissues in the body become insulin resistant. It's almost as if the cells are saying, we cannot take in any more of this glucose energy, and the machinery by which insulin pushes that energy into the cells become damaged. Now, this can happen in different types of tissues, right? So for many people, this happens in the brain, the blood-brain barrier. And so what ends up happening is that people start to become energy deficient in the brain. It's called brain hypometabolism. And if you look at any neurodegenerative disorder, look it up on Google or any psychiatric issue, Every single one of them, there has been areas of the brain identified with brain hypometabolism, meaning that part of your brain is starving. Those cells are starving. They cannot get adequate fuel in to run, to make neurotransmitters, to do basic housekeeping, to use antioxidants, even to use the micronutrients that you're taking in supplements to try to help. That takes energy to actually use them and metabolize them. And so this sets off a neurodegenerative cascade that happens a good 20, 30 years before the very first Alzheimer's symptoms or Parkinson's symptoms or ALS symptoms show themselves.

Wow. Wow. So this is the neurohypometabolism effect that's taking place. So where do ketones come into the picture?

So once that glucose machinery is broken, we have to rescue brain energy in order to keep that at bay and to help that. So the way we do that is we put people on ketogenic diets and that will switch the brain, the brain fuel. So now there are parts of the brain. So we all hear that glucose is the preferred fuel of the brain. So many scientists now would argue that that is not the case. Yes, there are certain parts of the brain that require glucose to function, but they do not have to come from dietary carbohydrate intake. You have a process in your liver that makes all the glucose substrate that your brain and body needs at any moment. So those parts of the brain, yes, those will still run on glucose, but the more glucose you eat will not make those parts of the brain work better. Okay, now we have to rescue the parts of the brain that cannot use glucose that have become hypometabolic. And the way we do that is we switch our fuel source away from carbohydrates to ketones, which are fatty acids. They come from fatty acids. So you get your carbohydrate intake low enough, this will trigger your body to access its own fat stores and create these wonderful little things called ketones. And those ketones are readily, and I would say preferredly, used in the brain. They bypass that broken glucose machinery and they just go right in your brain like little rocket fuels. And your brain loves them and uses them up and it starts healing things, as you can imagine. And you can get ketones from eating dietary fat. Your body will turn those into ketones. Or you can get your ketones by burning your body fat. So everybody does it a little bit differently. And so those ketones are first and foremost fuel, but they have a lot of really amazing properties because they actually are molecular signaling bodies. So you can think of ketogenic diet for cognitive impairment almost like a gene therapy because they are powerful enough to turn some genes off and some genes on in beneficial ways.

So this is triggered when we reduce the carbohydrate intake and it triggers that processing of the glucose that's already in the body.

Yeah, it changes. So you get your glucose down low enough and your body is like, oh, wait a minute, we need to switch fuel sources. We got to keep things moving. And then your body will switch on the machinery that it's already evolutionarily prepared to do, and you will start to make those ketones, which will rescue function.

So you mentioned how we can introduce these ketones into our diet. Tell us again what some of these practices would be.

Yeah, so there's different combination, macro combinations around ketogenic diets, but generally the power— the only thing you really need to do is to restrict carbohydrate intake to around 5% of your calories. So when I work with people in my practice and my online program, we generally shoot for 20 to 30 grams total carbs, not net, total carbs per day, because we know that is a low enough carbohydrate threshold that will cause ketogenesis, the creation of ketones. And we increase fat, healthy fats. And many of your listeners have probably been taught that saturated fat is bad or dangerous, but, and you can do a ketogenic diet using more monounsaturated fats like fish and fatty fish and the olive oil and the nuts and more of a Mediterranean style. But we want nice, happy, healthy, stable fats because that helps make our membranes for our neurons and all of that great stuff, our mitochondria. So it's an increase in fat, and we generally do a fairly liberal protein, particularly for older populations because it is more difficult to keep muscle mass and we're trying to keep sarcopenia away. There is a classic ketogenic macros, which has more restricted protein and even higher dietary fat intake, but I find in my private practice and my online program that we generally get really good results with what's called the, that modified Atkins, where we let them have all the protein they want, we keep those carbohydrates nice and low, and we keep the fat a little bit above the middle range.

Okay. So this is like modeled after the Atkins diet, or the Atkins diet is modeled after this process?

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. And these are very effective macros. So the ketogenic diet has been around for over 100 years now as a primary, really effective treatment for epilepsy. And so they use the classic ketogenic diet macros and the modified Atkins macros in dealing with treatment-resistant epilepsy. Before pharma, this was the diet used to heal the brain and to control epilepsy. And many people still use it or would like to learn the option to use it because those medications can also have side effects that are not pleasant.

Yeah, yeah, to reduce the seizure threshold or increase the seizure threshold. Do you know why, or do we know why this diet helps with epilepsy containing the seizures?

Yeah, one of the mechanisms— well, there's a few, we do know many of them. So one of the mechanisms is that a ketogenic diet will completely shift and change the gut microbiome. In beneficial ways. And we believe that has an effect on the neurotransmitter balance in the brain. So, in epilepsy, as we see in Alzheimer's, as we see in different psychiatric disorders, there is often an increase, an unpleasant and damaging increase in an excitatory neurotransmitter called glutamate. So you're supposed to have a little bit of glutamate, but in these brains glutamate is too high. And when it's too high, it actually becomes neurotoxic and can cause even more damage. And so what a ketogenic diet does is it balances the environment in which the brain is trying to make neurotransmitters in such a way that it will balance GABA and glutamate. So GABA is an inhibitory neurotransmitter, and GABA is that chill, feel-good, anti-anxiety. I got this, right? We give people, psychiatric patients and Alzheimer's patients and even seizure people, gabapentin, right? Because we're trying to increase GABA. So a ketogenic diet does that, which is really helpful.

So it limits or restricts the glutamate production.

It doesn't quite restrict. The right word is kind of balance. So there's other things going on that, and then I would say balance is the correct word for lack of a better one. It makes it so that the brain is functioning better and it can balance its own neurotransmitters. And these ketones, remember I said that they have molecular signaling bodies. And as I talk about epilepsy, I want your listeners to understand that we're talking about brain health, and all these good things that are happening in epilepsy are also very beneficial for mild cognitive impairment and Alzheimer's disease. And quite frankly, the brain fog that— and the memory issues that people complain about long before they receive a diagnosis of mild cognitive impairment. Right? So again, these symptoms happen really early, and they get progressively worse, sometimes fast, sometimes slowly. So these molecular signaling bodies, these ketones— there's different types of ketones. Um, one is called beta-hydroxybutyrate, and that particular one does some great things. So it will increase the endogenous antioxidant system in our body. So everyone has heard of glutathione, probably, or has heard it mentioned. Glutathione is our body's endogenous antioxidant. It is very powerful. And I promise you, there is no amount of turmeric, curcumin, or vitamin C that you can take in a pill that is as powerful as your endogenous glutathione system. And these ketones will come along and they will actually upregulate and increase your body's ability to make glutathione. Now, for brains that are under incredible oxidative stress, which any brain with any kind of neurological issue or mental illness is, this is life-changing and very, very helpful. Ketones will also turn off chronic inflammation genes. You keep your acute inflammation because, you know, you need that. If you cut yourself in the kitchen, you need that acute inflammation to happen. But the chronic inflammation that causes the neuroinflammation it reduces that on a molecular level. So it's a, it's a multifaceted intervention that just means fantastic benefits for anyone needing some help with their brain.

So that's, that's, I guess, indirectly related to the increase in glutathione as it helps to suppress the inflammation, the chronic inflammation. Yeah. Are there other ways to increase glutathione? Can we get that in our diet?

I think a paradigm shift has to happen for people who are struggling with their brains, who are trying to save their brains. We have been kind of taught that you can continue your behavior as it is as long as you just keep adding vitamin C or keep increasing. But here's Here's what we know is that the different lifestyle factors that we're not doing, the really high carbohydrate diets, the sugar, or even just doesn't even have to be a high carbohydrate diet. If you have markers of insulin resistance or your brain is not doing well, it is quite possible that you are just eating more carbohydrates than your body can handle. It really does need to be individualized. So if you are not using glucose effectively and your brain is struggling for fuel, and it is using up your micronutrient stores trying to make energy, trying to fight inflammation. The question is not really how do I get more glutathione so I continue to stress my brain and my body doing my usual things, right? It's how do I stop stressing my brain and body, upregulate my glutathione with a ketogenic diet and lots of micronutrients that my ketones are going to then use to heal my brain and my body. That's actually the question that we need to be asking.

I see. Sure. That's helpful. Thanks. So we're not wanting to increase it through some external means. We want to create that balance in the body, in the brain.

Yeah.

So that it stays at an effective level without the external, because you mentioned turmeric and probably some other nutrients that can do that.

But I mean, those can be, those can be helpful, but it's kind of like if your house is on fire, you know, throwing a few buckets on it, which is a turmeric supplement, is not going to fix the problem. It's not going to stop or slow down a neurodegenerative process, period. And I think we've really done people a disservice by giving them that impression.

Sure. So as you talk about these effects on the brain, the beneficial effects of increasing The process. How does this affect mental disorders? Are we looking at mood disorders, affective disorders, or—

Yes. So I just recently left a metabolic psychiatry retreat in Florida. I went last week and there were several brilliant scientists I got to hang out with, really smart people who are researching ketogenic diets for serious mental illness. Schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, treatment-resistant depression. We are beyond case studies. We are doing pilot studies, and there are even RCTs going on right now around this, many of which are being funded by the Bazooki Brain Research Foundation. But yes, I see amazing things in my practice. And there's published case studies your listeners can can look them up. So there's case studies of people who have been severely schizophrenic for 30 years, living on the street, hospitalizations, doing a ketogenic diet, literally having those hallucinations and delusions not come back as long as they restrict their carbohydrates low enough that they are producing ketones.

Wow.

It is amazing.

So we're talking not just about the affective or the the mood condition. We're talking about the psychosis or the, the cognitive disorder, the thought thinking disorder that can accompany those, those severe mental illnesses.

Yes.

That's amazing. What was the organization again that was sponsoring this?

Uh, the Bazooki Brain Research Foundation or Fund.

Yeah, I mentioned that in the intro. Bazooki, B-A-Z-O-O-K-I, Brain Research Fund. Yeah. Wow. Great. So, um, I've heard that the risk is this ketoacidosis, um, that can come with severe carbohydrate restriction. Tell us about ketoacidosis and how is that a risk factor?

So ketoacidosis is not the same as nutritional ketosis. They are completely different with completely different effects on the body. So ketoacidosis, diabetic ketoacidosis, comes when your ketone levels are through the roof high and your blood glucose is also through the roof high. And so that is a metabolic emergency that needs to happen in the emergency room. That does not happen with people who are in nutritional ketosis unless they had type 1 diabetes and we didn't know about it going in. Right. That's very rare. Do we not know someone has the beginnings of type 1 diabetes? So this is very different. And in fact, this is used in diabetic populations, particularly type 2 diabetic populations. This is used to reverse insulin resistance and get people off of their insulin with the help of their doctor. And so ketoacidosis is completely different than nutritional ketosis, and none of your listeners should be concerned about that. I I will say some of your listeners are going to be jazzed about what I'm saying and want to run off and do a ketogenic diet. And I want them to understand that if they are on any kind of medication at all, whether it's blood pressure medication, any type of medication that affects blood sugar and tries to lower it, beta blockers some of your listeners are going to be on, and any type of psychotropic medication, I really need them to coordinate with their doctor because they will need their medications adjusted down, most likely. And they need, ideally, a collaborative prescriber who understands the effects of ketogenic diets. Many do not. We have a deficit in training, as you can imagine. But I can also work with patients to try to teach them how to self-advocate, or any of your listeners can find and reach out to me. I will help them find a collaborative prescriber that understands the profound effects effects that this metabolic therapy has on medications. So don't just go out willy-nilly, people listening, and do a ketogenic diet. Let's find you a doctor first who can help you with your medications and guide you.

Great, great. Thanks. And we'll put that contact information toward the end. So just quickly, back to the nutritional ketosis. What does that look like? Where, where does that come from? I mean, just an extreme, or Less extreme ketoacidosis, or is it on the same—

totally different. It's a totally different metabolic state than ketoacidosis. They have absolutely nothing to do with one another except the presence of ketones.

Okay. And so not a bad thing, nutritional ketosis?

No, quite beneficial.

That's—

that nutritional ketosis means you are producing ketones and you are getting all of the benefits and all the effects.

Is there a way to detect that or measure that? Yeah, I think from our well-being.

Yeah. The nice thing about a ketogenic diet is it is literally the only diet that has a biomarker that you can check so that you can make sure you are in compliance and you are doing it properly. So the first month to 6 weeks, we have people use urine ketone sticks to identify the presence of one of the ketone bodies and make sure those are being produced. There are also blood ketone monitors. For example, Keto Mojo is a brand that has a blood ketone monitor, and that checks for the presence of another ketone body. And those are nice because you check your glucose and your ketones at the same time. You could check for that ketoacidosis, which rarely, rarely ever happens unless someone's already quite ill. And you check your ketones and you can see your blood ketone levels of BHB, for example. And I really recommend for anyone doing it for severe a chronic, recurrent chronic brain fog, MCI, Alzheimer's, or some other neurological disorder or mental illness, I always really recommend they do that testing because it's very helpful in fine-tuning those levels.

And that can come from just a finger prick and using the tabs to monitor that. Interesting. Yeah. So the ketone sticks and the blood ketone monitors. Um, you know, I'm just curious. It sounds so beneficial. I wonder why ketogenic diets aren't more popular. Why aren't they more well accepted?

Yeah, I think, you know, we, we have drug representatives going around to doctors' offices teaching them about pharmaceuticals and encouraging the use of pharmaceuticals. We don't have, uh, you know, a base camp of dietary therapy, people going out to doctors' offices and teaching them the very robust scientific research base about ketogenic diets for brain health. I wish we did. I wish someone would fund that because I feel that people really have the right to know all the ways they can feel better. And a ketogenic diet is definitely one of them, particularly for any kind of brain issues.

Sure, yeah, and this is of course connected to our overall recommendations for healthy lifestyles, and you know, it's all interconnected, the physical activity and the proper diet nutrition and understanding the damage from ultra-processed foods and, you know, certain extreme kind of dietary intake. So it's all connected, and we're, we're still looking for a quick fix, we're still looking for these magic pills that can make everything better. And yeah, they can on a limited basis or, you know, kind of short-term basis, but it doesn't change the lifestyle. And this is what you're talking about, is changing the diet, reducing that overload of carbohydrates that can be so damaging, right?

And, and it's, it's a mitochondrial intervention. So, you know, If your listeners go on Google and they look up ketogenic diets, they will see people talking about ketogenic diets fixing all kinds of different chronic issues, not just chronic pain like arthritis, but chronic issues. Different autoimmune issues improve on a ketogenic diet. We see PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome, improve. We see people getting off their diabetes medication. We see it for mental illness. And the reason for this is a ketogenic diet is very much a root cause intervention because it goes right after mitochondrial function. And mitochondria, we all know from biology, are the energy plants of the cell, right? But they do all kinds of things. They are part of the glutathione production. They are part of your hormone production. They are all of those things. This is really a root cause intervention for a lot of different pieces. And ketones, remember we talked there about how they're molecular signaling bodies? They will actually increase the number of mitochondria that you produce and increase and improve the functioning of those mitochondria. They are a more efficient fuel source. So you can imagine what that does for all the systems in the body struggling.

You know, this really parallels closely with a guest I had on just, um, a few weeks ago who talked about, um, redox signaling. And that it's a similar effect where it goes into kind of restore, repair the damaged cells, the mitochondrial connection, from this, um, just a simple saline solution. It sounds like it's, it's another approach that targets the same process as the keto ketogenic diet.

My, my— it's definitely mitochondrial in nature.

Yeah, yeah. Well, what a great conversation. Um, just a lot of useful information, Nicole. Thanks for this.

You're welcome.

I wonder what's the takeaway for the audience? What would you like the listeners to remember from this conversation?

I want your listeners to understand that there is an evidence-based treatment for cognition, that as you age, it does not mean that your cognitive function needs to go down, that you can make these dietary changes that are wonderful and sustainable. And there's people who have done them for lifetime and decades successfully and enjoyed their food and enjoyed their life, that you have access to these interventions. And just because your doctor doesn't know about it and doesn't recommend it to you, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist and doesn't mean that you can't have access to it, and that neurodegenerative processes can be slowed and stopped with a ketogenic diet.

Great information. So, uh, looks like we're out of time, but before we break, I just want to remind my listeners to visit the club website, livingto100.club, sign up for my email list, and download a free copy of my 9 tips to make living longer enjoyable. You'll also see an option to contact me with your questions and comments. I welcome your feedback. And finally, thanks again for being a premium club member. Your support helps us keep the program going. I believe that the messages we share each week can lift our spirits, help us to stay engaged, and look forward to getting older no matter what gets in the way. So, Nicole, thanks so much for being a guest on our show today. For those who might want to contact you, how can they do that?

The easiest way is Nicole at Mental Health Keto. I also have a free brain nutrition guide that your listeners might enjoy at brainfogrecoveryprogram.com. They can find that there. But the easiest way to email me is at Nicole@mentalhealthketo.com. Like I said, I'm happy to help you find a doctor or a practitioner who can help you transition to a ketogenic diet and monitor your medications appropriately.

So if someone was thinking about exploring this, or, you know, maybe adopting a ketogenic diet, it's more than just picking up a book, right? Um, yeah, talk with some, some professional who's familiar with this approach.

And yeah, well, you, you can— I, I did it myself. I figured it out. It was rough. There's a little bit of— if you don't get the macros quite right and you don't supplement electrolytes appropriately for the diet during the transition period, you can feel not good and your brain energy can kind of go up and down. So it can be a little harrowing, but not in a dangerous way, just an unpleasant way. But yeah, you can learn it from a book. Remember, a ketogenic diet for neurological issues is different than a ketogenic diet for weight loss. The carbohydrate restriction is much lower and much more stringent. Some of the books about ketogenic diets for weight loss are a little bit more higher carb, a little more loosey-goosey because they're being done for a different purpose.

I see. Sure, sure. Yeah, a different variation on the theme. Yeah. But let me just repeat your email, nicole@mentalhealthketo.com. And brainfogrecoveryprogram.com for your paper on what?

Brain nutrition.

Brain nutrition, of course.

Yeah.

Yeah. Wow, what a super conversation. Yeah, I really appreciate this. I know our listeners will enjoy it very much, so thanks so much.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Yeah, you're welcome. And thanks to everyone for tuning in. Hope to see you next time.

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