Memory Lane TV: Multi-sensory Programming for Dementia Care

Welcome to the Living to 100 Club Podcast. Here's our host, Dr. Joseph Casciani.

Well, hello to everyone joining us today. You're listening to the Living to 100 Club Podcast, and I'm your host, Joe Casciani. I'm passionate about helping people embrace psychologically healthy aging, staying positive, finding purpose, and making the most of all the years we're given, regardless of what challenges come along. This podcast is part of a larger mission I call the Living to 100 Network, which brings together 3 powerful tools: 1, my podcasts; 2nd, my Better, Longer, and Happier card deck series; and 3, the Living to 100 Community, a place to connect, learn, and thrive together. To learn more, visit my livingto100.club for podcasts, join the group forum at livingto100.community, and for the card decks, livingto100.solutions. Thanks for being part of the journey. Now let's dive into today's program. Today I welcome Alban Maino, filmmaker, diplomat, and founder of Memory Lane TV. A groundbreaking platform delivering adaptive multisensory television programming designed specifically for individuals living with dementia. Albin explains how Memory Lane TV combines evidence-based science with soothing visuals and sounds. He also shares the challenges in reaching senior audiences, generating awareness and finding meaningful engagement strategies in a crowded and unoften— and often unfunded landscape. First, a little background. Albin Maino is a Franco-American media producer passionate about integrative health. In 2022, after several years of product development, he launched the very first streaming platform for people living with dementia and specifically Alzheimer's disease. A therapeutic digital intervention designed to help people living with memory loss and their care partners through interactive multi-sensory stimulation, Memory Lane TV. Passionate about music and banjo picking, mindfulness and philosophy, cinematography and photography, wine, hiking, and walking in noble silence, friendship and poetry, among other things. His goal in life is to remain optimistic on all levels and make people feel good. Albin, welcome to our program today.

Well, thank you very much, Joe. I really appreciate that introduction. Actually, I don't know if I have anything else to add about me. Thank you.

Well, that's fine. There's always more to add, but I'm glad we got a little taste of you and your background and your focus. So let's start with some questions. What, what's the personal story behind the creation of Memory Lane TV?

Well, you're right, that's always a good question, especially in the startup world. It's really, um, interesting and important to know, you know, what drives us in life. And, uh, you mentioned I'm a media— I'm a film producer, I'm a cinematographer. I started as a photographer early in my life And my life in my early 20s took a shift. I lost my brother from a leukoencephalitis, which is a debilitating degenerative disease of the mind. He passed when he was in his 20s. But that was a major shift because there is no cure for what he was suffering, very rare cases. And, and from that moment on, I decided that part of my professional life would be focused on helping people living in the same type of conditions or managing, trying to manage symptoms that were similar to what he was experiencing towards the end of his young life. And about 15 years ago now, my grandmother Rosette, who was the most incredible and sweetest woman you would ever meet, was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. And so I always remember when she said, what is that thing they call Alzheimer's? And my answer to her was that you you don't have to worry one second about it. It's going to be all fine. And so based on, on that diagnosis, I, I took a deep dive in the literature. I'm part of a think tank in Paris called the Institute of Life, and it was one of the early think tanks that actually studied the Alzheimer's disease, although I don't like to call it disease. It's a conjugation of so many, so many factors. But in the early '80s, there were already Nobel Prizes thinking about, you know, what was that degeneration that happened with time as we get older. And I was really surprised that there was almost 50 years of research on non-pharmacological approaches to manage symptoms. So it's not like And I'm not a physician per trade. I work a lot with physicians over the past 30 years, but my only expertise and experience and claim of fame is to be able to put the right people around the table and make them work together. That's what we do as producers, you know, and that's what I started to do with this project. I was just like, oh my God, there's so much. There's so much about aging well. There's so much about multisensory stimulation and degenerative cognitive decline. I'm not going to get into what Alzheimer's disease and dementia is. And, you know, and probably your audience know a lot already about it, but it's not only memory loss.

It's—

there are many types of dementia, many types of cognitive decline. And what's really important to take away is that there are many ways to manage them, many ways that are non-pharmaceutical, and they've been studied. And if I were to mention, you know, Music, you'd be like, of course, music. You know, Oliver Sacks, Musicophilia, in the '80s described with dementia patients how important it is. But it's not the only thing. Media and aromatherapy and touch and, and, and all sorts of sensory stimulation. So that was the inception of what became Memory Lane TV is like, okay, there's this body of work. Can we get the best physicians in the world to think and help us do something about it and create something from the ground up. And, and that was 10 years ago, and here we are.

Yeah. So Memory Lane TV uses, um, what I understand is this multi-sensory stimulation. Um, how does that, how does that work? What's going on for the individual watching or listening?

Well, again, you know, we're all sensory beings, right? We all love to watch things. We all love to listen to our favorite tunes. We all love to breathe the air of a forest, et cetera, et cetera. Marcel Proust, this famous French writer, described actually in one of his books called Du côté de chez Swann, Close to Swann. I don't know the English title, but he described how the very first sensory stimulation and how it, how it went. And in his book, he's just walking through a kitchen and all of a sudden he smells the very exact same scent of the cookie that his grandmother used to make when he was 8 years old. And instantly— and the description is just incredible, actually. I've done an English version and I'm going to put it on my YouTube channel. But the description is so vivid that he says, you know, everything comes back instantly to it with the— it's not only the smell, but everything, the road, my grandmother, the kitchen, the atmosphere, the road that led to it. And that's what we call a sensory illumination. Same thing can happen with music. Oliver Sacks, I was mentioning it. There's a great film, by the way, called Alive Inside by Michael Rosano Bennett that describes music illumination. They're incredible. You know, people— most of our music memory happens between the age of 8 and 22. This is when we create our music playlist for our entire life. And a lot of people who are suffering from dementia and Alzheimer's, particularly even advanced stage, sometimes cannot talk or move. And if you find, if you find the right piece of music that they listened to when they were at that age. And we create what's called musical illumination. They remember all the world. They start to animate. Sometimes they get off their chair even though they have— it's really a miracle. So based on that, this is— this was the foundation of Memory Lane TV, saying we can do that with all the senses, with visual, auditory, aromatherapy, and more.

So when memory is triggered it kind of connects with— it's got associated memories. So not just a single memory of the cookie, but the grandmother in the kitchen and the smells. And so all the memories associated with that single, single trigger. Single—

you're absolutely right. What's called in a scientific term long-term potentiation is how our memories are created. So Of course, memory is not like the cloud. It's not like a hard drive where you can put things and pile them up. No, memory works in a very different way. When you put a memory on top of your memory, it creates a different remembrance of it all. And your life is a whole remembrance, but there's no exact point. It's not like a hard drive. So long-term potentiation refers to the fact that we have a lot of images and sounds and things in our mind that composes our memory. But, and I can, I can make all this come back to life, not by recalling them or reshewing them to you. Sometimes they do. But let's say, for example, you grew up on the coast of Maine and you love the ocean and you had a golden retriever and you're— Nat King Cole was your favorite you know, musician. Well, I can take all this if I do your profiling and show you images of Maine right now and show you, you know, a golden retriever that wasn't your own dog and all that. And I put them all together and you will get the exact same sensation. Your memory will come back. It will flow. And the more, the more personalized it is, the greater it is. But what, what that does on top of just reviving the memory, which is one thing, which is also our identity, our dignity, right? It also manages the symptoms because when you lose your identity and when you forget who you are or where you are or what time it is or why you're hungry, it's just because you're— you haven't eaten in 5 hours. You don't know what's going on. You're, you're anxious, you're stressed.

Yes.

Or when you're watching TV and you, you're watching, you know, the news, this is very stressful. And if you, if you, if you have Alzheimer's, every time you watch it, it's over and over that the war is starting. So what we do is we took the precept of saying, oh, some images, some sounds are good. They can be— they can activate memory, but they can also make us feel good. They can redirect our attention to a more quieter place. And unlike pharmaceuticals, we take a long time to, you know, if you If you, if you have a panic attack and some people are going to give you a pill of some kind, it's going to take 3, 4 hours and the side effects are going to be bad. But if I redirect your attention somewhere else to a quieter place, if I teach you how to breathe, if I show you something much more soothing, your symptoms, your heartbeat is going to go down. And that's the foundation of saying, yeah, we need to improve the quality of life of people who are suffering and living with those. And not only those people but also the care partners.

Yeah, yeah, so you're reducing the anxiety, you're reducing the kind of agitation, the person is unfamiliar with confusion, and I mean redirection is a very powerful approach to deal with this agitation. We remove the person from that overstimulation to something that's more soothing and reassuring. So, um, can you describe for my audience the apparatus, the setup? What is Memory Link? Are they looking at a TV? Are they looking at a computer monitor? Are they headsets? Or what's the whole setup?

Yeah, I'm gonna share my screen and show you very quickly. But when I'm in an elevator to give my elevator speech, I say— what is it that you do, Albon? It's like, well, I'm the founder of what we call the Netflix of dementia, of Alzheimer's disease. And people like, oh, and what I just did by saying those three words, Netflix of dementia, is projecting you into a streaming platform that looks like Netflix that's adapted for people. But now, if I'm surrounded by physicians and we have a little more time, I would say this is a digital health tool that induces, induces sensory stimulation to both activate the memory and to mitigate many of the behavioral and psychological symptoms that often accompany Alzheimer's and other forms of dementia. But effectively, your question is right on. It's a media streaming service like Netflix or Hulu. It's available on every single television, is very easy to use and widely available. But all of the content is scientifically designed to be therapeutically helpful for managing those symptoms. And let me share my screen, if you, if you allow me to share the screen.

Oh sure.

All right, I need to do that. Let's see, let's see.

Is that it?

No. Oh, there we go. Both disabled attendees' screens you're viewing.

Yeah.

That's strange. You know what, I know you're sharing your screen.

Oh yeah, I'm sharing my screen. Okay. That's not what we do want. Stop share.

You have to go to the little arrow on the right of it and allow me to share.

So my problem is I have two screens here and it taps for my second screen.

I'm viewing your screen again, and I need to stop that share. There's a little button on the share— I mean, a slide on the share— and if you click on that, those are the options, and you have to click on allow people to share.

All right, I allowed you to share simultaneously.

I have it. I'm— so I'm sharing my screen and, uh, and you can see— can you see Memory Lane TV?

No. Oh, now I am just coming up.

Okay, so this is the landing page, watchmemorylane.com. But if you go on Google and you just style Memory Lane TV, you'll find here. And what do we see? Well, we see something that's very familiar, right? It's like any program that you're going to find on Apple TV, Netflix, Amazon, or whatever, except that— that— so that's the navigation system, except that you're on Memory Lane Television. We have about 14 different collections. I'm going to go down through it very quickly. We have 2 linear channels that, based on which time zone you're in, will adapt. We follow the rhythm of the day at what— so different films for morning, lunch, afternoon, evening, and even at night. You can run our channels 24/7, or you can do the video on demand. And if you do the video on demand, you can select from our categories. You can select by the stage of dementia. You know, I'm not going to get into the different stages or advanced stages there. You can navigate the content through the type of symptoms you want to manage. If you want to work work on memory or reminiscence, or if you want to meditate or stimulate the appetite, different types of programs are offered. If you want something that's not engaging, more meditative, we have a lot of nature and calming ambience films. And most of the films are plot-free, meaning that they're non-character-driven. There's no voiceover. They're very easy to follow. Some of them have a little voice, like we have a partnership with Getty Images, for example. And I'm on it right now. They're 10-minute films that essentially talk about reminiscence. So you see the moon landing, Elvis Presley, Duke Ellington, and we just give a few simple facts. But basically the story comes from the imagery and the sound.

Sure, sure.

So art storytelling, Bob Ross, music and dance, sing-alongs, musical playlists, activation of appetite through cooking shows and very specific films that you can use during meal times. World travel, if you want to revisit your, your honeymoon in Paris, we have about 250 films that are just like Peloton. You walk through cities around the world. There's sports, there's a chair yoga, breathing exercise, and you can personalize that based on your cultural background. So if you're from an Afro-American background, or if you have a different type of faith or your gender, we program different type of content. Or Spanish, we have a lot of content in Spanish. And the least but not last is the free care partner channel and training education. We've partnered, we have over 200 films that essentially are training and education for the caregiver. So you see, this is what Memory Lane TV is. Very simple, anyone can access it. It's It's very cheap. It's less than a cup of coffee per month to access it. And, and that's how it works. I'm going to stop sharing for now.

That's— I'm so impressed with that. And when we spoke earlier, I was very impressed. And now seeing the range, it's so powerful, the content that you have there for the individual, for the trainer, for the person being trained. It's so powerful. Now, you started out by targeting individuals and you're shifting or expanding it to communities, senior living communities, assisted living facilities. Tell us about it.

It's good for everybody. It's good for the care partner at homes. It's good for professional caregivers. It's good for facilities who, you know, there's a continuum of care that has to happen with, with this pathology, but other pathologies as well. When you're at home, you, you want to redirect your attention. You want to sometimes listen to a specific playlist or, or just dream. What's important for us is even more important for someone who has Alzheimer's or dementia, and we need to enhance their senses. But it's also very important for the care partner to find ways to communicate. And it doesn't matter if you're in a nursing home or if you're at home. Generally, it's very easy. It's about human connection. And, you know, caregivers are aging too.

Sure.

And we need to support them. Support their mental health by reducing the burden and the stress. I'm going to share with your audience a scary number here. More than half, more than half of the people, of the care partners dealing with Alzheimer's disease, when they're their direct care partners, spouses, etc., die before the person that has the disease. And that's because of the emotional, the logistic toll.

Yeah, the solitude.

Yes, so the free care partner channel to us is very important because it provides emotional relief, it provides joy, and important tools for connection.

So, uh, you said that this is, um, evidence-based. You had a lot of consultants and specialists who contributed their expertise to creating these, these videos, or Yeah, this is a very important point.

We— this is evidence-based and we have clinical trials for over 10 years in product development. We've partnered with the best in the field. We started at Mass General Hospital here in Boston and we've done over 10 different pilots in communities. We started in Maine, for example, 60 facilities in Maine and the University of Southern Maine. And we paired each, each resident of different, different homes with a, with a student. Uh, lately we've just finished a pilot with the New York Office of Aging. We're doing right now a pilot in Toronto. We've done so many of those pilots, um, and every time we do a pilot, we learn more and we improve what we've done. But it is very important to understand, yes, that this is a science-based innovation. We're going to work with Brown University Long-Term Care Innovation Center next year for a big SBA DAR grant. We want to personalize more and integrate AI into it, so it's an ongoing journey. But yes, it's evidence-based research behind the platform.

Very powerful. I assume some of these pilot projects led to outcome studies and showing some effects, some benefits of the program.

Huge benefits, um, 95% of— that's one of the statistics I'm I'm proud of, but 95% of the people using Memory Lane says it has a positive impact. 100% wants to keep it. 86% of the people using it find a direct benefit in terms of diminishing the stress and the reduction. I mean, there are so— we found so many positive outcomes. I'm happy to share with your audience our white paper. Or they should just go to memory-lane.tv. And a lot of it is out there, how the visual, auditory, and emotional component and how that is aligned with neuroplasticity and multisensory engagement. Our goal is not to treat dementia or not only just to treat, it's really to nurture the human experience even as memory fades. That's really important. You know, people lose that connection. We want to keep to keep that connection alive. And unfortunately, this is not an area of science that's particularly invested, so our work is very important.

How advanced in their condition can individuals benefit? I mean, I've seen mild, moderate, very severe cases of Alzheimer's. How advanced?

Can you impact our users? Well, let's put it this way. Memory Lane TV is very noticeable, has a very noticeable impact in medium to late-stage dementia. But I would, you know, challenge this because the problem is the stigma around dementia and Alzheimer's. We think, oh, it's a disease. Oh, I don't need that. Oh, I don't have memory loss. We all do. I, I keep forgetting names all the time. Oh, I don't need a memory television. No, you don't, but you need to relax, right? You need to dream. You need to communicate with others. And that's what Memory Lane does. And for the care partner, for everybody, for every one of us, you know, in most facilities where I work, they've replaced entirely the television by Memory Lane TV all day long because it's not television. You know, I, I don't like screens, it's— but it's a tool to reactivate the senses. So I, I encourage people when they hear me say, oh, it's a TV— no, it's not a TV screen. It's much, much more than that.

Yeah, yeah, we, uh, we've all seen the TVs, a large beautiful TV showing the movie, and you walk into the room and most of the people are not interested and maybe half asleep.

They drift in and out. And, and when they drift back in, they're like, they don't understand, the plot doesn't make any sense, the imagery is too complicated. So we needed to create something like Memory Lane TV where it doesn't matter if you drift in and out. When you come back, you know, that little owl is still there, the little child is smiling, you're walking in Paris, and all of a sudden you're like, oh wow, that's interesting. Yes, it is.

When you talk with potential users, do you Do you share your thoughts about kind of replacing the traditional activities, reminiscence groups, life review? Do you talk about substituting Memory Lane TV for what programs they have in place, or is it a complement to them?

No, it's always complementary. We need as many tools as possible to manage symptoms. But if you're talking about memory care units and, you know, facilities where generally most people are fairly advanced, that's a great place for people to be because they have a lot of support, right? They have a lot of— they have activity directors and specialists and activities throughout the day, and they can engage in yoga teachers and resources and human resources. So most of the time, bless those people, by the way, kudos to them, they do an incredible job for no money.

Sure.

So again, every time I have an occasion, I'm like I bless them anyway. But when you're at home, when you're dealing with your wife and you're not in a facility and you don't have any of that and you don't even know what's happening, you need, you need tools and you need reminiscence tool. And what do you— but you all— but everyone has a TV, right? So here we are. We cannot replace anything fundamental. I mean, if you want to— if you can take anybody in the forest for forest bathing, By all means, take them, you know. If you can do yoga with them and touch them, do it. But the reality that I've witnessed, not only in facilities, memory care units, but also at home, is that that's a small fraction of the time. A lot of people are left behind in front of bad TV. A lot of people— because there's not enough hands to wheel everybody to the yoga session, you know. So you need something that's simple, easy to access, and that it will have a lot of impact for the money. And that's what we do. So it's complementary.

Yeah, yeah, I would say so. Sounds like it very much so. It's not meant to take over, it's just meant to add on to whatever else is being done. And this is there, this is always there. Can you give us an example, or maybe a case where you heard that it had such a profound effect on The individual, the caregiver. Sure.

I have so many I could refer to, and we have, by the way, lots of testimonials as well that you can see, like, literally by, by the dozens on, on our YouTube channel and on Memory Lane TV. But, um, a good example, and I hear that many times, you know, I— this is what gets me going. It's really hard, by the way, um, because there's no funding for this.

Yeah.

And sustainability is very difficult, and the new administration has cut 85% of our grants this year. So we're in a pinch, as they say in English. But to answer your question, you know, even though it's difficult, a lot of time some people call me out of the blue and say, ah bon, what you've done is really incredible. You gave me 2 years of joy with my mother. How is that? Well, I say, Membrane Tea just saved us. You know, when It gave us, you know, an hour of free where we could let her be and engage. And then we found some of your films. They were just mind-boggling. Like, we were able to communicate with them, with her, and she would all of a sudden lit up when she would see the little boys smiling. Or, you know, we would use your films during lunchtimes and her appetite would come back. So there are Many examples like that, that, um, that could come to mind, but they're— and they're all very diverse, you know.

They're so sure, different stories for everyone. Sure. Yeah, yeah. Well, um, I, I know we talked about the grant money is drying up. I think it's shameful that these cuts have been made. I'll go public with that opinion. But if there was funding, what would you like to accomplish in the next year or two? And what would you— what are your goals?

Joe, thank you very much for asking that question. Actually, I have a dream. I have a dream and I have a very important mission. And every one of you, everyone who listens to me here now, just forget everything I've just said. If you're— just go and see what Memory Lane does. But here is the dream. We started as a not-for-profit. I would like to donate Memory Lane to a not-for-profit, an advocacy organization that could disseminate it to the entire world. We're already in discussion with a few advocacy organizations that are willing to accept that gift. But of course, it comes at a little cost. So we have to pay to reimburse at least the people who have invested to make this happen. And so we're looking for a foundation, a family office, a philanthropist, someone who understands the magnitude and the importance of what we're doing so we can gift that to, you know, the Alzheimer's Association, the Dementia Society of America, or another, you know, important association that will then provide it for free to the rest of the world. Yeah, that's the goal, that's the vision. Yeah, and I don't want to have more money to create more— the intervention, the platform exists, it's there. The only thing we need now is to disseminate it. So if anybody has a good idea, reach out.

Well, that's, um, that's a very powerful image, and making it available, extending your reach, so to speak, and bringing this content to anyone who needs it, anyone who would benefit from it.

It's 100% digital, so anyone in India, Australia, you know, Europe can affect it. 80% of our content is universal. And it would be very powerful, by the way, if you're a big corporation that, that think good about ethical work and do want to do good, to put your label behind that and says, yes, we are offering to everyone in the world Memry Lane TV because we care. So yeah, it would be fantastic. It would be my life mission accomplished.

Yeah.

And a good transition for that project.

Well, um, you know better than I, it takes, you know, the diligence and determination and small steps, and you kind of keep covering some ground and you, you find some listeners.

Yeah, persistence. I also firmly believe in providence, providential serendipity, as you say in English.

Yeah.

And you know, it just takes one person to change the entire world sometimes. And one listener might say, you know what, we're gonna do it, and in memory of my spouse, or, you know, my wife, and I'm gonna change, I'm gonna make that happen.

Yeah.

And I was telling you earlier, what keeps me going when I'm down, when I'm like, I can't do this anymore, you know, uh, something happens like this. So maybe, Joe, you'll be the catalyst for that new thing. Maybe one of your listeners said, yeah, spark.

You never know. Um, we always have to be open to those little sparks. Yeah. Uh, great story, Alban. Uh, great, great story. I love it. I love the content, I love the mission, I love the, the, uh, the benefits that it accrues to the, to the viewers. So, um, I, I believe you'll do it. I think you'll do it. I think you'll find your way and you'll get it distributed.

Yeah, thank you very much.

So it's a story of a good product, a good mission, but also a good story of determination, right? Yeah.

Yes, determination, persistence, hard work, and most importantly, community. The people along my journey are the ones who picked me up and said, no, no, you need to continue. Whether they're business angels that have provided the money so we could start, occupational therapists that says, Albon, this is incredible. You're not going to believe what happened today with our residents. Someone who always stays in their bedroom. They're singing out and they're coming because they know Memory Lane TV is on. Or someone who says, you know, I'm reaching out to you, you don't know who I am, but for the past year my mother and I, thanks to what you've done, you know, and those people are what get me going.

Of course, of course. Yeah, you can reach people in ways that, um, you know, we cannot reach them, I mean, otherwise, you know, I think because sometimes the communication fails, so instructions, activities, but to provide this kind of stimulation, this constant, steady, solid, structured bit of stimulation, can reach them. Yeah, it can trigger those associations.

Yeah, it can totally. And what a gift, what a gift to be able to offer someone back his memory.

Yeah, yeah.

His identity, their dignity, and to be able to find them. You know, a lot of people, and as I was mentioning, the burden and the emotional toll of the care partners, which I'm sure a lot of your audience will resonate with. A lot of people suffer the most from the fact that they, they don't find the people that they love anymore. It can be their father. It doesn't— well, we can do that. We can revive this, you know. It's a promise. It's like, yes, even for a moment, they're there. Yeah, you know, so that's magic.

Yeah, you connect, they connect, reconnect. Well, uh, what's the, what's the website and where it people learn more?

So very easy to find, just Google Memory Lane TV. We're the first one to come up. If you want to go directly to the, to the website, it's memory-lane.tv or watchmemorylane.com. And, but we're very easy to find. And, and feel free to reach out to me anytime. Me and my team, we're there for anybody. And, and I'd never want, um, money to be a problem either for accessing Memoriam TV. If you're in a hard position, just send us an email.

Yeah, well, I, you know, I always like to be the messenger, but I'm really happy to— I'm, I'm honored to be the messenger on this story, Alban. I think it's such a great piece of work that you've created, a great piece of art you've, uh, you've painted.

Yeah, yeah, thank you, thank you very much, Joe. I really appreciate it.

Yeah, no, you're welcome. And looks like we're out of time. But before I wrap up, I just wanna remind my listeners to visit my website for my blogs and podcasts. That's livingto100.club. And be sure to visit my new community for connection and experiences. That's livingto100.community. All 3 websites start with livingto100.club, community, solutions. So, and if you're part of a senior living community, take a look at Memory Lane TV and consider my card deck series, 12 modules with exercises, inspirational stories, and a lot of useful information. So, Albon, thanks so much for joining us today. We've got your website and we'll put it on our show notes. Thank you again for being here.

Yeah, no, thank you for having me on your show, Joe. Good luck, and, and hello to everyone out there.

Take care. Thanks. Yeah, thank you. You're welcome. And thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in. Hope to see you next time.