The Hospice Doctor’s Widow: How to be at Peace with the Inevitability of Death

Welcome to the Living to 100 Club Podcast. Here's our host, Dr. Joseph Casciani. Welcome to all of our listeners tuning in to the Living to 100 Club Podcast. This is Joe Casciani, your host for this program. I'm very happy to welcome each of our listeners today. We focus on successful aging, longevity, and making it over the hurdles. And one of the best parts about hosting these conversations is bringing in guests to share valuable and often personal information with our listeners, information that makes us more informed, helps us to live longer and healthier, and inspires us to do better. Today is no exception. Our guest today is Jennifer O'Brien, someone who lost her husband to cancer after his long medical career of caring for his patients, including those on hospice. Two years ago, Jennifer wrote a book, The Hospice Doctor's Widow: A Journal, to chronicle the caregiving process during her husband's illness and the important steps and actions to consider during a terminal illness. Welcome, Jennifer. We're very glad to have you with us today.

Thanks so much, Joe. It's an honor to be here.

Great. I always like to begin by asking our guests to tell us about the journey that brought you to where you are today.

Absolutely. In some ways, it goes back to 1983. Don't worry, I won't take you through it year by year. But it does go back to 1983 because my only sibling died. He was 13 and I was 18. When that happens so early in life, you get a real understanding of the meaning of life and, of course, of death and grief. So that was a big part of who I am, who I became. And so when I met my husband, my late husband Bob Lemberg, and he was a palliative care physician, hospice and palliative care physician I was, you know, taken with that because he had actually been a plastic and reconstructive surgeon for many years, and then because of a neck injury, he could no longer operate. And so he chose to retrain in hospice and palliative care, and that was a real head-turner for me because he— because I knew how important important. My mother had died some years after my brother died, and I knew how important palliative care and hospice is to patients and families. And then, of course, he was cute and had a great sense of humor and all that sort of good stuff, so I fell in love with him and we got married and had a really wonderful life. He was on faculty at our med center. I'm in Little Rock, Arkansas, and we have a medical center here, academic center, and I continued to do my work in healthcare on the sort of leadership business side of healthcare. And then he found a couple of lumps on the left side of his neck, and we went through some diagnostics and learned that it was a metastatic stage 4 cancer, and he lived for 22 months. Following the diagnosis, and I was his family caregiver, his only family caregiver, and so that's how it went down. Yeah.

Sure, sure. Yeah, so you were able to see both sides. You experienced the deaths of family members and your husband, and you could see the work that he was doing, so you saw a lot of the intricacies of terminal illness, of course, and palliative care and doing whatever we can, although we know the battle is lost in many cases, but we can still provide that support. And what you saw in your husband's work, I'm sure. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I don't really see it as a battle because at the end of life comes death, and to me it's a little bit— it's it's more than the binary aspect of battle, you know. And so, at times, certainly can be a struggle, and there are certainly people who get cured of it, of cancer or whatever illness they have, you know, but at the end of life, death still comes. And so, that's just such an important part to me of living fully is recognizing that. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you made that point. That's an important message to communicate that it's not— I used the word battle, but you're correct. It's not a battle, it's a process. And it's a challenge for many individuals, for most individuals, for families, but it's a process. Absolutely. And we learn a lot. We learn about what the individual needs, what what we can offer. And your book was, I think, your way to chronicle what you went through and maybe to share some of that kind of important insight and understanding with other readers. Is that why you wrote the book?

Well, it's fascinating. I never really meant it to be a book. It was my personal art journal. I'm a self-taught collage and assemblage artist, and I started the art journal purely as a form of self-care almost immediately upon Bob's diagnosis. I, you know, as anybody does journaling, I combine mine with art, but it's— you journal to sort of process your own thoughts and feelings. You journal to you know, understand what's happening inside of you and in a relationship. And so I started journaling. I also, we have the unique situation of, you know, as a hospice and palliative care physician, Bob had helped a lot of other patients and families through life-limiting diagnosis and end of life, and he had some real wisdom and insights in that. And so, part of my art journaling was documenting those and reflecting on the fact that now we needed to apply those to us. We had to turn them on ourselves. And so, that was an element of the journaling. And so, I kept the journal, like I said, as a matter of self-care. And then, After Bob died, I kept going with it for about a year and a half. You know, obviously at that point it's a lot more of the grief processing. And I was working in a large multi-specialty practice. I do a lot of interim CEOing for very large physician practices. And so I was doing one of those projects and I was talking with a neurologist that I worked with, and he was lamenting that he was in the process of diagnosing 3 different patients with ALS. And I brought my art journal in to him. By this time I had finished it and, or felt like it was finished, and I gave it to him and he took it home and said, and came back the next day and said, you know, Jennifer, you're not getting your journal back. I'm I'm going to loan it to these 3 patients and their spouses because it's got some really helpful stuff in it, and you need to figure out how to get that published so that we can make it available to other people in the same situation that you were in. And so that was really, as you can imagine, that was hugely inspiring and And so, I went to work on finding a publisher, and I was lucky enough to find a small press that was willing to take a chance on it. And the great thing about a small press is there's some flexibility, and we actually got it out pretty quickly, which I was very excited about because, you know, it was the idea that if it could just help one person, it would be wonderful. And so, I was eager to get it out, and we actually released it 3 weeks before the pandemic hit, which was both good and challenging, but it worked out. It was a success. So, yeah, there wasn't really a reason other than my own self-care and sanity. And so, yeah, it wasn't really meant to be a book.

Yeah, and it has recently been honored with a Nautilus Award. As a recognition for the quality of the journaling. Tell us a little bit about the award. Congratulations, by the way. Yeah.

Thank you so much. Yeah, it was really, really an honor, especially for a book that was never meant to be a book. But, yeah, it won a Silver Nautilus Award in the category of death and dying, grief and loss. And, you know, that's— just a huge honor and a sense of validation, I guess, because prior to the award, you know, I knew it was getting out into the world. I knew it was helping people because I would get emails and even handwritten notes thanking me for it. And it has some great reviews on Amazon. So, I knew it was getting out into the world. But I also had some insecurities about the fact that it, you know, it was my art journal. It was, I don't know, it just, it didn't feel like it fit anywhere in particular. It didn't really fit in the liter— it felt like it didn't fit in the book world and it didn't really necessarily fit in the healthcare world. And anyway, it turns out that I got some validation in the book and literary world from that. From that award. So that feels really, that feels really good. And of course it causes people to pay attention to it in a way that maybe is beyond just whether they need it in the moment or know someone who needs the book. You know, they kind of want to see it as a book. And so that's exciting too.

Yeah, yes, I can imagine. And it will reach more people, I'm sure.

I think so, yes.

Another vehicle. Uh-huh. Yeah. So I'm just curious about the process itself. I don't want to spend too much time on it, but art journaling, how would you describe that?

Well, I think art journaling takes a lot of different forms. Some people use paint. Some people cut and paste. It's usually a combination of the written word and some sort of visual depiction. In my experience, my art journaling is collage because I can't draw or paint. So I have to cut things out. And my real skill and my real artistic eye is in composition. So I like to put things together in a certain way and try to get a message or a question or a point provocation, you know, across. And so, yeah, it's a combination usually. I mean, typically art journals do not have lines on the pages, right? They're not lined pages because people do more than just write words. They draw things and so forth. So, I think that's usually the difference. Sometimes they just draw or paint, you know, in an art journal. But a lot of times it's something with a note, a journal note on top of it, and that's kind of what mine is.

So there's some captions or a little bit of narrative with each page, or not necessarily?

Yeah, so one of the— just as an example, one of the pages in my journal has a butterfly, but it's composed of four different, you know, the front and back wings of four different butterflies, and they're sort of layered to create a new butterfly, two different colors on either side, and an image of shears down the middle. And my note on that page says, "We're going through two different processes. He is dying. I am surviving." And so The visual sort of supports the written note and observation.

Yeah, okay, that helps me. I'm sure it helps our listeners as well. So there is a— you're able to capture some sentiment, something about what you're experiencing, maybe what your husband is experiencing, and also use some image, some collage type of image.

Yeah, there's a lot— yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. I, I guess I got excited about the fact that I think the fact that it is an art journal, the fact that there are these images in it, is, is what's making it so helpful to family caregivers. Because when you have a loved one who is going through a really serious diagnosis, usually you you don't have the focus and even the time to read a chapter book, right? So this is— the book itself is 8 by 10. It's only 85 pages. There's a lot of pictures, and the pages are usually one or two thoughts. A couple pages have lists. And so there's some practical things. Kind of woven in, but with some emotional things. And so, as a caregiver who's just exhausted and overwhelmed, you know, you can pick it up and thumb through a couple of pages and get something out of it, or read it cover to cover in, you know, less than an evening because it's short and there's a lot of pictures. Pictures. And so it's really been part of the success, I think, of the book that it's an art journal.

Sure. Yeah. And this is an instance where fewer words is more, it sounds like.

Yeah.

Fewer words with a real message, a real punch to it where people can say yes, they can resonate to whatever that is. Yeah, I can see that. So can you share some of the some of the messages that you are conveying in your book?

Sure. One of them early in the book is a page called Precious Time, and precious time was a concept that Bob used to tell patients and families. He would say, "You're in the precious time," and he would tell them that he meant by that that death is imminent or soon, likely soon, and that you need to sort of say what you have to say and not say what you will later regret. And that's such a valuable thing that most physicians, I don't think, are willing to share with families. 'Cause a lot of the time after someone dies, you hear the loved ones say, "I thought we had more time. You know, I thought there'd be more time." And this was Bob's way, in a really lovely expression, of emphasizing the type of time that the family had entered. Because I think he was as committed to the survivorship of the family He used to say, "Death is peaceful. I've seen it thousands of times. The patient is going to be fine. It's the family you worry about." And, you know, he had a very good point. It's those of us who live on after we've lost somebody, you know, and we have to live with that. And so a lot of my— Bob's and my work together on this that I chronicled in the journal was us preparing for his death and perhaps moreover my survivorship. We did a lot of very practical things. We downsized and moved into a beautiful condominium. We, you know, purged lots of things. We put property in my name. We did all sorts of things and had some wonderful conversations and, you know, decided to give certain things to certain people, you know, after Bob's death and so forth. And it was really lovely. And it was very practical because the business end of it, the paperwork end of it, can be overwhelming if you don't put some work in on the front end. Yeah, so, yeah.

That's a good one, precious time, I understand that. Yeah. But helping the individual patient and the family really understand, okay, we don't, you know, let's not forget we are on borrowed time, you know, death is imminent as you said, days are numbered, maybe we're down to weeks, maybe months, so let's, focus on what's really important. This is exactly precious.

Yeah.

Can you think of another, another sentiment that you were conveying in the book?

Yeah, there was, um, there was a day that we went to put all of the property in my name, and we were sitting with the notary, and she sort of asked you know, what are you— why are you doing this? I don't remember how she put it, but I said, "Bob's dying and we're preparing." And she got sort of squirmy and nervous, and she— and I said to her, "We're at peace with it." And that seemed to relax her a bit, which was handy because we needed her to keep going with what she was doing. But it was also, you know, true. We were for the most part at peace with the fact that at the end of life comes death. And so, out of that particular journal note, I started thinking a lot about that notion of being at peace and ended up sort of combining those two symbols, you know, the symbol and the peace the round peace symbol. And so that became an element in the book that actually in some ways has become popular beyond the book, the @peace, both the concept and the symbol that I created. So that's been really great.

Sure, yeah. Yeah, I can see where these messages are really important for the individual who's facing death as well as the family, because everyone is going to have some difficulty, some level of difficulty wrestling with this loss and the imminent death. So I can see where the messages really speak to a number of different people involved.

Absolutely.

So you have an At Peace toolkit. At Peace Mindful Toolkit? What are the tools? What are the tools?

Well, so the At Peace Toolkit comes from— I released it about a month ago, and it came out of this idea, kind of what we were just talking about. We're— hopefully, if you have been lucky enough to love and be loved in your life, then the death is going to be sad. I can't— we can't do anything about the sadness. In fact, we don't want to do anything about that because the grief and the sadness when someone dies is just love in another form. But what we can do something about is what I call avoidable regret or a sense of traumatic loss when in fact it really probably shouldn't necessarily be traumatic because of the person's age and maybe their illness and so forth. That, you know, if they know something is coming. So the At Case Toolkit I put together to sort of help people, both people who are perfectly well, 'cause let's face it, one of the best things you can do is start having conversations about advanced healthcare directives and end-of-life wishes when everyone is healthy. Because then you have that as a reference point, because things go sideways pretty quickly when you get a diagnosis, and it sure is nice to be able to go back to some other conversations and say, are you still feeling that way? So the Advise Toolkit has basically 3 steps in it. One is loading your medical ID in your smartphone, and this is actually a life— Could be a lifesaving measure. Everybody who has a smartphone has the option of having a medical ID stored in the phone and making it accessible even when the phone is locked. But you have to go through the trouble of setting it up. So that's important, really, for everyone, for anybody who has a smartphone for that matter. So, so that's the medical ID. The second step is— encourages you to establish your advanced healthcare directive and name your healthcare proxy and a backup proxy. And again, these are really important to do, ideally before anybody gets sick, and ideally to have periodic touch base with those people so that you still feel comfortable that they could carry out your wishes if you were unable to speak for yourself. And then the third step or the third component of the toolkit is just kind of a list to help you get all your paperwork together and your passwords and all sorts of stuff that you really need to have in one place, both if something sudden happens and if you get sick. Because, again, when you get sick, a lot of stuff happens, and pulling things together at that point can be harder. So why not get it together? There's also one other little bonus in there, and that's a page of the document devoted to conversation starters. A lot of people say to me, you know, how do I start this conversation with someone I love, or someone I care about, or whatever.. And so this particular component has some ideas for how to do that.

Sure.

Of course, the easiest one for anybody listening to this podcast would be to say, wow, I listened to this really great podcast the other day and they were talking about this, so let's work on it.

Yeah, yeah. How do we follow up on this conversation? Let me just review then the loading the medical IDs, and I think I saw on your website that Apple phones and Androids both have a feature where you can find this. It's a native app.

Yeah, you may have seen that in the toolkit. Okay. Because I don't— that is on my website, but it's in the toolkit. And it's very specific instructions for both type of phone, how to do it, is in the toolkit.

Okay. And then establishing the advanced care directives, and that's done with— generally with an attorney, right? It's smarter to have that. Completed with an attorney so all the documents are completed correctly?

You know, I— yes, yes and no. I mean, a lot of states have forms online. If you put— if you go to Google and you put in the name of your state and advanced healthcare directives, you— most— every state that I know of has documents online to show you how to do that or documents that you can complete yourself. I would definitely visit with an attorney if you— especially if you have some sort of an alter— if you're a solo ager and you have an alternative, you know, relationship in the healthcare proxy position, right? So you're— so it's not the obvious person, your spouse or your sibling or whatever. And certainly, To the degree that you feel that you need to visit with an attorney, if the state recommends that, you could certainly do that. There's also a way to do it video, a video-recorded advance directive from an organization called MedioHealth.com. And I've done that one too just to see what it was like. And it's pretty cool. You carry or, you know, there's a— card that has a QR code on it. And so emergency personnel or ER doctors or surgeons can basically aim their phone at that QR code and it'll play your video advance directive. So it's pretty cool too.

Sure. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, so that's an important point on the advance directive information. Is really readily available. I mean, the forms are there. At least it's legal enough, unless there are a lot of exceptions, and then the attorney's advice may be warranted. Yeah, I can see that.

Yeah, and if you've got a lot of, like, several adult children, or, you know, if you want to be— say your spouse is no longer living, but you have numerous adult children, and you want to be clear who's who, not only would I would I consult an attorney in that case. But I'd also have a number of conversations with everyone so that it's clear who is in charge if I can't speak for myself. So that not only does the person who's making those decisions on my behalf know it, but all the other kids and in-laws know it, right? Because when these things happen, You know, it, it, it is a lot. It is a lot, and a lot of behavior comes out that you were not necessarily expecting from some people that you thought you knew really well. So it is just wise to, to have these conversations and to, and to touch base about them, you know, periodically. I think of it as a leap year thing. So every 4 years you, you sort of go back to your croak folder or your death dossier or whatever you want to call it. Make sure that, you know, all your stuff is updated in there and then have a touch base with your healthcare proxy.

Yeah, and then periodically have contact with these same individuals just to make sure things are still steady. Yeah, yeah. And then thirdly, the— all of the paperwork, all of the accounts, the passwords, location of some safety boxes at the bank and all of that. So I can see that. What you're really talking about is this is all stuff that really needs to be taken care of and get it out of the way, right? I mean, take care of it, wrestle with it, sort it out, take all the necessary steps, get help if you need, communicate, but have it in place so it's out of the way. It's not cluttering up.

And there's two things I think that are worth considering about it. One is it actually can be a very intimate process. You know, when you make that connection with a loved one about this is what I'm going to want and this is what I'm going to— some people even go through and plan their memorial service. Bob certainly did that. And I then had this great honor and we had this intimacy of me being the one who understood exactly what he wanted and being the one who carried that out for him. And that is, that is, you know, just a really a treasure of love right there. It's so— you're so close at that point. And then the other reason I think that so worth it is, especially if you're doing a lot of this before anybody becomes ill, it's very liberating. I mean, we're getting ready to go back out into the world after this pandemic. You know, get this stuff straightened out so you can go do all those bucket list items and really know that your house is in order and enjoy yourself.

Yeah, that's an important point. Process itself is an intimate one where you do have to raise these questions and decisions, and people might be upset or, you know, angered about whatever is happening with the will or the, you know, the final decision-making. So I can see that it's an important process to go through, and it's not something that should be just kind of pushed away. It is part of the process of letting go. I can see that. And then the conversation—

Well, one of the— sorry. One of the things, feedback that I've gotten about the At Peace toolkit, because it has been downloaded a lot, and one of the really great feedback I've gotten about it is to do it as a buddy system, to have a couple people Download it and then let's get together and do this first step. And then let's get together and do this second step. Not necessarily that this person is your healthcare proxy, but that you're kind of accountable to each other that you're going to go back out and do the second step. You know, that sort of thing and have sort of a buddy system so that it doesn't get, you know, downloaded and just kind of sit there.

Mm-hmm, sure. Yeah, tandem. Yeah, almost like having somebody you're working out with so you can kind of encourage each other.

Exactly.

A little different from working out together, but it's—

It's a different kind of workout.

Yeah, yeah. So it is hard. I mean, we know how difficult it is. I work with terminally ill patients a lot. This is some of my early work as a psychologist in a nursing home. So what recommendations do you have? Would you have for individuals facing the death of a loved one or for the individual himself or herself who's going through this terminal condition? Can you offer any kind of support or guidance or relief for any of our listeners? Sure.

I think two things come to mind and they're both, you know, Bob's wisdom and the one is that precious time, that it is, as hard as it is, and it is hard, it is especially hard when you're the one caring for the loved one because you're going to lose them, you know. It's not only is the work exhausting, but you are, but you, it ends that way. I mean, it doesn't end any other way than death. So, the first one would be that that precious time and that balancing of your survivorship with making sure that you have said what you need to say and that you have expressed yourself fully in a way that you'll be able to live with after your loved one dies. And then the second thing— well, let me back up a little on that because I would add to it, you know, there aren't any do-overs. So not only is it going to happen, but there's only going to be one chance to get it right for the person, for both the loved ones and the person who's dying. And so that's important to remember. There's no dress rehearsals. And you will be changed by it after your loved one dies. So, and then the other thing that Bob used to say to patients, he used to tell a story about his own parents who both lived into their 90s. His father had been a general practitioner in a small town in Texas and had said very clearly at a certain age, you know, the minute I start to show signs of losing my faculties or anything, just make me comfortable. That's all I want is to be kept comfortable. And his mother said, insisted that she wanted every imaginable life-extending measure. And they were both right, right? Because your end-of-life wishes is the right answer. And anything in between those two very broad extremes, right, is right. So, the other advice I have is, you know, that is it your death? And if it's not your death, then simply be supportive of whatever the other person decides. There was more than one occasion when Bob tried an additional chemotherapy, and I can't tell you I would have tried yet another chemotherapy if I were in his same situation, but it wasn't my death. It wasn't my life and it wasn't my death. So I just would let him know, I support you in whatever decision you make, whether you want to try something else or you don't, because that's important too, that we let people have the end of life that they feel is best for themselves and that we support it.

Yeah, yeah, what's right for us, what's right for me is not necessarily what's right for my spouse or my child. Yeah.

And the nice thing about being the caregiver then survivor of that is if you have— if you take that approach and you have had the conversations and been supportive, then after the death, you, you, you have the comfort of knowing that you did that instead of doubting yourself or regretting that you were too forceful, and, you know, or whatever, in your own opinions. You know, again, what— in an ideal situation, we have sadness and grief, and we don't have overwhelming paperwork, and we don't have regrets that we didn't necessarily need to have. You know what I mean? We don't look back and regret, oh, why did I say that? Why did I do that? Why didn't I— see what was happening kind of thing. We're eyes wide open.

Sure.

So, yeah.

Yeah, and we know that survivor guilt is not uncommon. There are a lot of times when the individual says, well, if only I had done this or done that, maybe he or she would still be alive, or why did I say these things to that person? And that's not uncommon. I've seen that before. You may have heard about about that as well.

Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, I think you're right. To defer, make the deference to what the person wants, what he or she chooses, and, you know, I think part of the problem though is do we have enough information, do we have enough to make these informed decisions, and I think that's my concern. There are a lot of resources out there, online sites and all that, where people can get some help and answers. Do you know what I'm talking about? For people to make these informed decisions, don't they have to know what all the options are?

For informed decisions about treatment, or—

Yeah, how much treatment should I go through, what's the best way to be cared for in this critical condition, or how much of a burden should I put on my family?

So, yeah, I think there are some resources. I have on my website, I have a resources page, and there's quite a bit of, you know, there's some links to caregiving. There's a caregiving hotline. You know, a family caregiver hotline. There's ways to support caregivers. You know, as far as the decisions about treatment, there is a page in the book. I was pretty observant, you know, as a physician, Bob made decisions about treatments in a way that perhaps you and I can't make, right? Because we don't know all the ins and outs. We don't, you know, but he went about it in a very informed way. And so what I did one day was sort of take the process that I had observed him go through. I think he, I think in the end he tried 5 different chemotherapies or targeted therapies. And I documented sort of what he— the decision tree kind of thing that he would go through in making the decision. So that, you know, knowing what's really going to be accomplished with that treatment. Why are we doing it? Is it curative? Is it palliative? You know, and then what are the side effects? Is there something I want to try to stay alive for the birth of a grandbaby? For a wedding or something like that, and other factors that things that would come into his decision-making process. And so, I sort of put those into layperson's terms, and that's in the book. But aside from talking things through very openly with your physician, I'm not sure. I can highly recommend asking for a consult with a palliative care team early and often. I mean, palliative care does not mean you are dying. Palliative care is a multidisciplinary team of a physician, an advanced practice nurse, a social worker, and a chaplain, and often a clinical pharmacist that are all really well-versed in all of the symptoms and the psychosocial issues and the caregiver issues and the side effects that come with major illness. I mean, that's all it is. It is a whole team of people that help you with a huge diagnosis, whether it's a terminal diagnosis or it's a, you know, a new chronic diagnosis that is really going to have a big impact on your life. It's— I would say ask early for a consult with the palliative care team. Because they will help a lot with how do I live fully with this illness or this condition. That would be my biggest advice. And they're very good at helping families process those decisions about treatments and options. So—

Of course. Yeah, yeah, that's great advice, Jennifer. I think that's really important. That's kind of what I was getting at. How can we learn more about what to expect and how can we educate ourselves. And to have that kind of a team where you can ask people questions and explore other areas, I think that's really important. It helps people to make these very difficult but informed—

Right, and it's— sometimes it's nice to have a social worker to talk to or a clinical pharmacist to talk to just to, you know, not— you don't always want to talk to the doctor, although palliative care doctors are such team players typically that you feel more comfortable with them sometimes than you do asking your, whatever, oncologist or neurologist. But they really work well with the primary specialty and just giving you more resources.

Yeah. Well, I think this has been a great conversation. I think you shared some important insights and the understanding that it's really good to communicate, to just sit with this condition, this diagnosis, this terminal illness, and be able to process it. And it's tough to face, and, you know, it's like looking at the sun. That's what a friend of mine once told me, talking about death, it's like looking at the sun, it's very difficult. But I wonder if you could give a bit of advice or what would you hope our listeners take away from our conversation today?

I would go back to what we talked about earlier and say there is just great, great intimacy and that end of life is a major event in is as major an event as the beginning of life, and we put a lot— we take about 20 visits with a physician to talk about a life coming into this world, so why wouldn't we take some time to talk with each other and just really, really enjoy that intimacy and just getting to know what each other loves and wants in— during life and end of life.

Yeah, take as much time at the end of life as we do at the beginning of life to understand what is happening, what this is all about. Yeah, well, that's good. That's good. Yeah, it looks like we're out of time for today, Jennifer, but before we wrap, I just want to remind our listeners about a few items. Be sure to visit our website and see our newest offerings. One is Work with Dr. Joe, that's me, for one-on-one conversations about managing setbacks, overcoming a negative outlook, and getting back to feeling engaged and motivated again. So visit the Work with Dr. Joe page on the website and see the options available. You can also pick up a copy of my book on Amazon, Living Longer Is the New Normal. I think that whatever age you're at, inspiration and a positive mindset can can be put to good use. That's my message in the book and something that our guest today I'm sure would agree with. And be sure to visit our website and sign up for announcements and newsletters for reliable information and resources about moving forward. And while you're there, you can download a free copy of my 9 Tips for Living Longer. It's got a lot of practical and useful strategies for successful aging and staying positive. Livingto100.com. Jennifer, thanks so much for being a guest on our show. For those who might want to contact you, how can they do that?

You can contact me through my website hospicedoctorswidow.com.

Hospice doctors, D-R-S widow, right?

Yeah, either way. You can spell it out or— Either way. Or S-S, yeah.

Okay, dot com. Okay, and congratulations again on your book and the award from the Nautilus. Honors. So kudos to you, gold stars to you, and loads of more sales from it. And thanks very much for being a guest on this program today. I really appreciate it. I know our listeners will appreciate it as well.

Thank you for having me, it was a real pleasure.

Great. And thanks to everyone for listening to this episode. Hope to see you next time.

Hi, I'm Laurie LeBay, and I wanted to tell you about Alzheimer Speaks, which is another great podcast. You see, my own mother lived with dementia for 30 years, and I felt lost. Did you know Did you know every 3 seconds someone in the world is being diagnosed with dementia? Odds are it's going to hit your families too. We want to help you connect to services, products, tools, research, and stories so you can be prepared. Please subscribe to Alzheimer Speaks on your favorite podcast platform.