The Movement Against “Gender Ageism” and For the Ascendancy of Women with Sara B. Hart

Hello to everyone joining us today on our podcast. You're listening to one of our public episodes this month on the Living to 100 Club program, and I'm your host, Joseph Casciani. Each week, our conversations educate and inspire, helping you get the best out of all the years we're given, regardless of what obstacles come our way. Our conversation today takes a close look at gender ageism, the ageist societal views held against older women. The views that older women are irrelevant. Our guest is Dr. Sarah Hart, the developer of PrimeSpark, an organization that encourages senior women to find the spark deep inside that ignites the way forward. Sarah discusses why the second women's revolution is here and what she describes as a time of the ascendancy of older women. How do we find that spark deep inside to step proudly into our advancing years? First, a little background on Sarah. Dr. Hart earned her PhD at Northwestern University and then taught at Queens College in New York City. She spent 20 years at Pfizer, where she was responsible for leadership, team, and organization development for the research division in the US. After Pfizer, she founded HeartCom, a management consulting company. She also became the executive director of the Anita Borg Institute for Women and Technology, an advanced research and advocacy group increasing the impact of women on all aspects of technology. Sarah received formal coaching training at the prestigious Hudson Institute of Santa Barbara. And is one of only two certified Thinking Environment instructors in the United States. Sarah, welcome to our program.

Thank you, Joe. It's wonderful to be here.

Great, glad to have you with us. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Me too.

This is an important consciousness-raising topic, I think. Yeah, I always like to open by asking our guests to tell us briefly about the journey that brought you to where you are today. I know you've had a long history, a colorful, illustrious history, and I touched on some of the highlights, but maybe just give us maybe just kind of the inside views of what brought you to where you are today.

Well, um, as it says in my bio, I, um, got my PhD at Northwestern, and then I taught in New York for 5 years. And from there I went to Pfizer and spent most of the time, all but one year, in the research division. Um, most of those years in, in Groton, Connecticut, 5 years in the UK. And when I got back, I was 50, and it was time for a change. And I had a wonderful job I had a wonderful place to live. Everything seemed perfect, except it absolutely wasn't. And I remember very well one day I was coming down the escalator in the building and I felt like I had a wetsuit on. I don't know anything that's more binding, if you're not in water, than a wetsuit. And I realized in that moment, I'm not kidding, I've got to leave. Because something awful is going to happen if I don't. So that is a very hard decision, and I have huge empathy for women who are in the middle of that, because, uh, my entire life I've been taken care of. I've been taken care of by my parents, and then I'd been taken care of when I was teaching, and then I'd been taken care of by Pfizer. And now for the first time, I was contemplating going out on my own. I had, I had no idea what I was going to do, um, but I couldn't keep doing what I was doing. So I sold almost everything I had and put what was left in my car and drove to San Francisco from Connecticut because I decided I wanted to live in San Francisco. So I moved into a one-room apartment there. People who didn't know me real well thought I either was fired or had a nervous breakdown, um, because I went from this amazing life to living in one room. I was so happy.

Sure.

And, um, people would say, what are you going to do? And I said, I don't know. All I know I'm going to do is go to the coffee shop in the morning, read the paper, and drink coffee until I'm done, which one can't do when you're working, of course. So every morning for a year, I went to the gym and then went to the coffee shop. And finally I realized, okay, what I want to do is start my own company. I don't want to work for anybody else. Well, that was sobering because I'd never run a company, but I didn't want to work for anybody else, and so I started HeartCom. I've had HeartCom now for over 20 years. Do— I was doing primarily what I'd been doing at Pfizer and in corporations, in team building, leadership training, off-site meetings. And about 3 years ago, I thought, you know, I spent about 40 years plus of my life in corporate America. That's enough. So I was sort of at another one of those, okay, I've got to do something else. And two things happened then. I decided it was time to sell the house I had and, um, downsize and go into a smaller place. So I did that, went through another major downsizing. And it was really hard this time. And so I wrote a book about it called The Upside of Downsizing: Getting to Enough. And it's about the emotional side of downsizing your home, not the practicalities, not the where do you sell stuff, where do you put stuff. It's what it feels like to get rid of things you've had for 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 years. Um, and I did book readings and book signings, and that was really good. I loved it. And then COVID hit, and that, that put an end to that. But I started doing some of those online, and that was good. But while I was doing that, a couple things happened to me that I thought had to do directly with gendered ageism.. And I thought it was, it was solely because of my age and my gender that I had been treated the way I'd been treated. And so I was working with a coach at that point, trying to figure out what I wanted to do next. And I said to her, I think I want to work with and on behalf of older women. And she said, oh, your golden years. And I said, No, no, no, no, no. Yeah, I want to work with women in the prime of their lives, their 50s, 60s, 70s. That didn't used to be true, but it is true now, and I want to work with them, and I want to help them find that spark deep inside that will ignite them forward into the rest of their lives, making the rest of their lives the best of their lives. And I thought about that, finding the spark in the prime of their lives. Prime Spark. So that's how that came about. And for the last 2+ years, that's pretty much what I've been doing. And it's— I don't know what to call it, Joe. It's not a project. It's not my company. But it's what I'm spending all my time doing. I want it to be a movement, and I think there is a movement, and different people are working. And at some point, we all need to get together and decide what, what it is.

Yeah. So yeah, that's what I'm doing, finding something that you love. It's hard to describe it as a project, or, um, I mean, I call it new chapter, but that's a great story. I love that unfolding of, you know, who you are and who you really wanted to become, and finding your way now through PrimeSpark. I think that's a great story. Yeah, so, um, let's just jump right into this gender ageism theme topic. Um, we know about ageism, but let's talk specifically about gender ageism. What, what does it look like?

Well, ageism is, um, a very important issue. And since I'm a woman and know the experience of being a woman, I decided I really was interested in working with gendered ageism.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I think that for women, the ageism strikes them sooner than men. I've talked to women— this is so sad— in their 40s who are still in organizations, and they are experiencing ageism. 40s! And by the time a woman gets to 60, they really, generally speaking, want her out of there. Now, that doesn't so much happen with a man. Men experience ageism, but not quite so early. Okay. And it's also the case that for a man, a man can be seen as very distinguished with graying hair. A woman with graying hair is seen as old. So since we have mostly in society been rewarded as women for the condition of our bodies, whether we can produce children or not, uh, or whether we still can produce children or not, how we look, how heavy we are, how light we are, how our skin is, how our hair is. Um, since all that is how we're so judged in a lot of society, then as some of that starts to change, which it does, it impacts women more than men. It can impact men, but not to the same degree. So I think gendered ageism is, is, well, it's the issue I'm interested in, and that's why.

Sure. So the, what you're saying is the, the value of the, of women, uh, of a woman starts to diminish as the worth of the body, the physical body, childbearing and all of that as that starts to decline and not be so prominent, that's where the ageism starts to set in, because that, that one-sided ranking of value starts to decline. And men don't experience that, at least not as readily.

No, and it's not— I've recently interviewed a couple women who work in menopause, and men may experience a male menopause, but not like a woman does. And this is a huge generalization, but as a society, we sort of tend to see— we don't talk about it, number one. I mean, we don't talk about it, and it's sort of a disease, you know, which is bizarre because we're born, we go through puberty, we start our menstruation, And then we end it. It's not a disease, it's part of the life cycle. But if we think about really how do we value women who are sitting in meetings with sweat running down their face? Yeah.

So Prime Spark was the origin of this kind of your, your mission, your purpose. And Prime Spark is a way to raise our awareness about this gender ageism. Yes. How do you, how does it, how is it implemented? How do you practice or what do you do with PrimeSpark? What's the goal?

Well, the mission of PrimeSpark is to change the way our society sees and treats older women. Um, the starting point with that, I believe, is for each of us, it's an, for many women, it's an internal trip first. And so I have a membership community, a Prime Spark membership community. I have a Prime Spark Story Circle. I do podcasting. I have a newsletter. I write a blog. So I am doing as much as I can think of right now to get, to get the message out. And also to help women see how we have been damaged by what we're told we're like after we're 50.

Right, right. Yeah, so many different avenues, many different vehicles to raise this awareness, raise this consciousness. Um, Kind of lost my thought here. So you're encountering, I'm sure, a lot of people, original thinkers, maybe people who are kind of on the same wavelength, same channel as you are, with the same mission, same purpose. Um, and you're experiencing a lot of this, uh, from other people as well, wanting to raise, raise our awareness. What is this notion about being on the cusp of major change that you and I spoke about? Let's, let's talk about this. You feel like we're, we're at a kind of pivotal point in our, in our society, at least here in the US. We're recognizing some of these old stereotypes and we're gradually getting rid of them. They're evaporating. But what is this major change that you think we're, we're on the cusp of?

Well, two things, Joe. One is, I think Ageism is just, just coming over the horizon as being something that we're talking and thinking about. Um, we've dealt with other isms, and, um, racism, sexism are incredibly important to be dealt with, and so is ageism, because we are all getting older, and if we're not getting older, we die, and so it's a moot point. Um, and so I think that, uh, if you, if you look on, I don't think it's just the people I'm in touch with. Mm-hmm. I think if you pay attention to what's being written, the books that are coming out, the articles that are being written, the things that are being posted online, there is a growing sense of how damaging ageism is and how, and that we need to deal with it.

Mm-hmm.

And I am particularly interested in the other women who are working in gendered ageism. Again, there are more and more books coming out about the effects of gendered ageism in one way or another. So I think it's, when I say it's on the cusp, I think it's sort of like we were, I don't remember Betty Friedan's book came out in '56. When did Betty Friedan's book come out? Whenever Betty Friedan's book came out, I think that for several years we were on the cusp of the whole sexism movement, the women's movement of the '60s and '70s. I think, and I think it's the same thing is happening right now. It's just that this group of women who went through the '60s and '70s and saw what we needed to do and what changes we needed to make are now at the ages that they're at, and they see how ageism is affecting us, and it's not okay.

Yeah, yeah. So the Betty Friedan, the Gloria Steinem, Maggie Kuhn, uh, a lot of the same kind of thinking is as progressive today as it was back in the '60s. I mean, I remember those years of, um, a lot of the, the questioning about sexism, the stereotypes about women. So, uh, we're really, um, kind of encountering, re-encountering that same questioning, which is healthy, which is good.

It is healthy and good. And, and we're not done with the work of the '60s and '70s, actually, because there are some days I feel like, oh goodness, we're going backwards.

Here we are again. Yes. Yeah. So, um, what do you think? Uh, I mean, I, I, I understand I'm not an expert in this, but I understand the limiting beliefs that we can kind of ascribe to others and that we can adopt on our own when we feel like, oh, aging means slowing down, dependency, maybe medical frailty. And that attitude about older adults and that attitude that we might have of our own as an older adult, very limiting. And it does, it does really handicap us. It's carrying some extra really heavy burdens that we don't need to carry. And as you talk about Prime Spark, really releasing that energy, releasing that, that direction, that, that, that motivation to open new doors. I keep calling it opening new doors. Yeah. So can you, um, can you share with us some, maybe some examples of how women can build on their, um, you know, as we, we look to kind of go after some new challenges and, you know, look at redefining, reinventing ourselves. Can you give us some examples of how people built on their past and kind of continue to, you know, kind of move forward?

Well, I'm, I'm working with one woman who, um, had been in a corporate environment in project management and left. And is now using all those skills. Um, she's in her early 60s, I think. She's using all those skills in running her own business as a book coach, which takes a lot of organization, a lot of project planning. Um, so she actually was in IT for a while, so she has put every— all of those skills and experience together But she's working in what her heart wants to do. Still using those skills, but she's now doing what her heart wants to do and allowing a very large number of people to publish, to write and publish books that they've had in the background they've wanted to do for a long time.

Wow. Great.

So that's a huge, a huge service.

Mm-hmm.

Um, this isn't exactly this, um, in line with your question, but it is what sprung to mind. A neighbor the other day said to me, thank you so much for saying, um, we either get older or we die. I said that in a blog post. I have to be very careful saying that because people get their knickers in a real twist about it. But she said, I'd never thought about it that way. And I, because I was celebrating birthdays, so that April is my birthday month and I love my birthday. So I was talking about my birthday. And she said, I never thought of thinking about it that way. That has totally changed my view of having birthdays. So we can, if we will just say things to people, we can, we can change whole attitudes, but we have to be willing to do it.

Yeah.

And it's not always easy.

No. Uh, but you're right. It, it's, um, it's pure and innocent, that statement to We get older or we die. Um, no hooks to it. It's no double entendre. It's just, it's just the fact there.

Just the fact.

So let's, let's stop looking at age as a number. That's what I say. It's age is more than a number. Yeah.

In the past, I've had, um, I've actually had some women get very angry at me when I talk about Prime Spark. And for the, the longest time, I didn't understand it. And finally, one of them said to me, Sarah, I don't want to think about getting older. Ah, right. So if we don't think about getting older, it's just like if we don't think about death. We don't think about death, we won't die.

Yeah.

If we don't think about aging, we won't age.

Yeah. No, that doesn't work very well. I mean, we, we stay kind of locked up there, and we stay in that comfort zone where we're not challenged or You're not exposed to new energy, new opportunity, but it's safe. It's, um, it's familiar, right? Yeah. So what about the person that, you know, really has, you know, some questions about how do I find my potential? How do I find that spark? How do I, how do I get in touch with that? And I don't know, for example, I don't know which, which way I should head. I know I've worked for all these years as whatever, an accountant or, or writer or doctor or nurse. What do I do now? How do I, how do I redefine myself, my future? How do I find my, my potential?

Um, well, it's probably best to do that work in a group of women because, uh, it's not— for most of us, it's not something you can sit by yourself in a room and come up with. Some people can. And thinking by yourself is really good sometimes, but women's— this is a huge generalization— women sort of like to be together with other women.

Sure.

And, um, other women can be very helpful. So if you're trying to do that, if a woman is trying to do that, uh, then, you know, pull together some friends, pull together some people you know, and, and explain how you're feeling and see if they're feeling anything and talk about it. So the first step is just really understanding how you're feeling, I think. Then, um, you're welcome to go on my website, which is primesparkwomen.com, and click on contact. Um, if you provide your email address, you will be sent a list of 7 questions, and they're designed to help you find that. So for example, the first question is, what is the story you're telling yourself about what's possible for you at this point in your life? Because the story a lot of women are telling themselves about what is possible at this point in my life is not much. Um, you know, they've, um, yeah, it depends on the woman's background, but for a woman who has spent her adult life taking care of a home and family and spouse. It is so sad when I talk to her. She feels as if she has no skills, which is crazy. I mean, she's managed that household for years, maybe the finances. So what's the story? Is your story that you don't have any skills? Or if you have worked your whole life And you're now in your 50s or early 60s and think, okay, I've been really good at what I've done. I've enjoyed it, but I don't feel fulfilled anymore. But it's terrifying to think of leaving these golden handcuffs that I am tied to here with the salary and the benefits. And what would I do?

Sure.

So it's, you're getting in touch first of all with what story you're telling yourself.

Um, and that— excuse me— that, that, uh, that story, you know, we, we call it our narrative or whatever we've been telling ourselves about ourselves. That's what we've carried around for so many years, and that, that's subject to, um, editing, right? I mean, absolutely. We can— we call it restorying. We can write a new story. We're not stuck in that. Yeah, it's valid. It may have been right at the time, but it's time to create a new narrative. What's wrong with that?

And what I find with many people, many women I work with, um, not everybody, but a lot of women have had a dream for a long time. It is stuffed way down somewhere, and it is time if, if the woman feels at that point in her life it is time to get what she would think of as selfish and think about yourself. And, and your first job now is not to take care of other people unless you're now having to take care of parents or whatever. I mean, that happens for some people, but A lot, even alongside that, your job is to take care of yourself. You've spent an entire life taking care of everybody else but you. So really, that's, see, that's where a group of women working together can really be good.

Yeah, I can see that. Of course.

Yeah. So think about, you know, when you, when you were a little girl, what did you dream of being? When you were a teenager, what did you think you would love to do but may have at that point not had any idea that you could do it? Now, that's not quite as true now as it was when I was growing up. I think little girls now see women doing things that I never saw when I was growing up.

So I'm thinking that, you know, males have these same questions, right? And males are faced with the same questions about aging and what now and how do I find some purpose in my future. And so what you're saying is not unique to the female gender, of course, but maybe what you're suggesting is that it may be harder, more difficult to re-examine that narrative for a woman than it is for a man. Would you agree with that?

Well, I think so, Joe, but I don't work with men, so I haven't heard what they say. I think that, um, a lot of women are— I mean, this, this is written about everywhere, but a lot of women are taught to be good girls and not make waves.

Sure.

Um, men aren't taught that. I mean, um, a man standing up for himself, saying what he thinks, is decisive. A woman doing that is aggressive.

Yeah.

And so I think that there are not only, um, sort of work-related sorts of things. I think there are personal things that we learn as little girls from a very early age to take care of other people, to, to, to read how people are feeling. And that's where our focus is so much of the time, but we don't focus so much on how I'm feeling. Now, this— I don't know that this is true. I think for a man, um, I don't think many men have focused much on how they're feeling. Oh, the 'how am I feeling' may be similar, but I'm— I can't speak for men. You can speak for men. I can't speak.

Well, I've heard that too, and I'm not sure I agree that women can examine their feelings better or easier than men. I'm not sure I agree with that. But, um, the questions that you have on your website, um, you talked about the first question. You have the 7 questions to help people kind of examine where they are and where, where they might be headed off to. What are some of the other questions?

Um, if you knew what What's next in your life can be really good. What are some of the things it might contain? Yeah, just dream, just, just brainstorm.

Yeah, yeah, visualizing the, uh, the outcome, visualizing the benefits of the change. Yeah, yeah, that's good.

Um, yeah, what 3 things What are 3 of the things that bring you the most joy? How often do you experience them? So that's trying to get a woman to get really in touch with what she loves to do and to realize she may be doing it, if at all, then once or twice a year. And we all know that the more positive we are, the more joyful we are, then everything will get better.

Yeah, yeah, we live longer.

Yeah, and we live longer.

People that live longest, or people with the most positivity, are those that live longest, you know, things being equal, um, medical-wise. Yeah, wow. Okay, so good questions. Um, you have others?

Uh, I love the— I love the 'don't die with your music still in you.' Serena Dyer. What does this mean to you? Don't die with your music still in you. And figuratively music. I mean, it might be music. I mean, I was just talking to a woman before we came, whose love was ballet. And gradually over time she got out of it and realized at some point in her life she was doing no dance. And so that would be an example of music inside you.

Yeah.

And I think that if— I think that if we don't pay attention to that music inside us, then something happens. We can get sick. We can at least get grouchy. I think that our spirit wants to expand and be everything that we can be and be everything we dream about that we can do.

Yeah, yeah. Brings to mind a quote from this Italian novelist, um, Cesare Pavese. He said, the greatest affliction of old age is remorse. Yeah, and that's similar, not exactly what you're talking about, but getting in touch with those dreams, getting in touch with those desires, those aspirations. And that's what we need to release in order to really be energized, to be free.

I think one of the worst things I can think about is lying on my deathbed and one of the last things I say is, oh, I wish I had—

sure, yeah, yeah.

Don't let that happen.

Well, you know, we always hear about the regrets about not doing more with family, not doing more fun things. And I always think about the person lying in bed at his deathbed saying, oh, I wish I had spent more time with the corporation, I wish I had spent more time in bed. We don't see that too often, do we? Yeah. Hey, talk about pillars for promoting change. Do you?

Yeah, I mean, this is on the website, but I, I will quickly say that the, as I see the four pillars for promoting change One is Fired Up and Feminine, which means we will open new doors of opportunity. We are powerful and insightful social contributors. Leaders for Life, we will be included in the highest levels of decision-making, planning, forecasting.

Wow.

Modern Matriarchs, we will be revered as a source of wisdom and strength as our family's matriarch. Media mavens. We will be well represented and respected in prime roles in all kinds of media. We will step proudly into our advancing years knowing that we have made major contributions to our families, our communities, and the world, and will continue to do so for many years ahead. It is our time.

Great. Those are great. Fired up and feminine leaders of life, modern matriarchs and media mavens, right? Wow. Yeah, that's a strong foundation, isn't it?

Yes, it is.

We could do anything with that.

We could do anything with that. Um, I, I was, uh, the other day speaking to a woman who is married to a Navajo man. And she does a lot of work in Navajo Nation. And we were talking about the difference in how Native women, old women, are viewed as compared with in the rest of the society here. There's no comparison. I mean, imagine what it would do for an older woman in this, and not in Native society, if she was revered if people went to her for her experience and her wisdom. I mean, you— I think you just think about that, you can see somebody starting to blossom.

Yeah.

Rather than to close up and get old.

Yeah. Which argues in favor of hiring people who are in their 60s and 70s, even older, because they have so much experience, so much wisdom. So much to contribute, rather than thinking, oh, it's time to bring in some younger blood and let's ease off some of our older workers. That's the wrong direction, isn't it?

Yeah, it is absolutely the wrong direction. Um, you lose so much, um, uh, um, organizational knowledge that way. I think that, that for people who are doing it, I think they're finding that intergenerational teams actually work better because for a lot of reasons, but one of the reasons is that our brains work differently.

Yeah.

And so younger people can certainly add great important things, and older people can add great and important things. They're just different kinds of things because the thought process changes.

Yeah, that's exactly right. We complement each other at different contributions. So important. Yeah, and that's what you're talking about with these pillars too, of our, you know, um, for promoting change, recognizing the wisdom, the, the value that we have in, in this age group. Yeah, great. Well, so what's the takeaway for our audience? What would you like our listeners to remember most, remember from this conversation?

I would like older women to remember it is our time Don't put up with comments that are clearly ageist and don't say them. So, and when you hear somebody say, well, that was a senior moment, call them on it. Have you ever heard a younger person who forgot where their keys are say, well, that was a younger moment? So call them on it. Don't buy birthday cards that make fun of us.

Yeah.

You go into the aisle with birthday cards, they're, they're making fun of us. They don't laugh at them. Don't— if you get one, don't hand it around. Don't buy them.

Yeah, yeah.

Stand up for yourself, basically.

Great point. It's our time. Don't put up with those comments that see us as, um, less than capable. Less than vibrant, less than miraculous in our thinking. Yeah, don't put up with anything less than that. I love that. Yeah, great.

Let me— can I tell one final story?

Yeah, please, please, please.

Yeah, along that line, I was recently on a flight and, um, the, the numbers of the seats went 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 23, 24, 25, 26. And so I passed my row I was in, and the flight attendant was about 3 people ahead of me, and she leaned over all the people and said, "Honey, you passed your seat. You need to turn around and go back." You would say that to somebody, what, 6?

Yeah, yeah.

And I It was, it was that kind of a situation where all people wanted to do was get on the plane and sit down. So I thought, this is not a time for a lecture. Um, but I would like to have some things to say in those situations that are very quick so that I don't just take it.

Yeah, well, it happens all the time, right? It happens all the time. Yeah, treating older adults as less capable than, uh, than we are. Yeah. Great. Great. Great. Yeah. So good information. Thanks for sharing this. Looks like we're out of time though, Sarah. And before we wrap up, I just wanna remind our listeners to visit my website, livingto100.club, sign up for my email list and download a free copy of my 9 Tips to Make Living Longer Enjoyable. You'll also see an option to contact me with your questions and comments. I welcome your feedback. So Sarah, thanks so much for being a guest on our show today. For those who might want to contact you, they can do that through your website.

Yep, primesparkwomen.com.

Great, primesparkwomen.com. Well, thanks so much. Great information. I know our audience members appreciate this very much, and we keep, um, expanding our awareness and raising our consciousness. So yes, thanks for contributing to that. Thank you. You're welcome, and thanks to everyone for listening to our episode. Hope to see you next time.