Accessible Airtravel for People Who Use Wheelchairs

Welcome to Disability Matters with your host Joyce Bender.

All comments, views, and opinions expressed on the show are solely those of the host, guest, and callers.

Now the host of Disability Matters, here's Joyce Bender.

And welcome everyone, welcome to the show. I am telling you, you're gonna love this show today. We have 2 dynamic guests today talking about a very, very important, uh, issue, I'll say, in the disability community. But before we get going, hey, I have 3 people I have to have a special shout out to. First, Yoshiko Dart, you know, every show, I think now for 2 years or longer There's been a shout out to Yoshiko. I'm going to tell you why. This year is the 30th anniversary of the signing of the Americans with Disabilities Act. Kelly is one of my guests, and as he knows very well, Justin and Yoshiko were both instrumental in getting the ADA signed. Uh, we lost Justin, but we've never lost his spirit. And we have Yoshiko leading on for us. So lead on, Yoshiko. Then a special shout out to two of my friends. One, Richard Roberts. Two, Dong Young Cho. Now they are with the embassies in Japan and South Korea. So I want to tell you about them. They are— Disability International Rights Advocates. And Richard, who I love, is working on a show we'll be having in September from South Korea. Is that awesome? As a matter of fact, we have listeners from 17 different countries in the world, which is just unbelievable and wonderful. Uh, we have great sponsors. We have Highmark, who has been our lead sponsor for 4 years. 4 years. We have Peoples, Peoples Natural Gas, that for the first year this year was a year-long sponsor. We have Wells Fargo, a new sponsor. And at the very beginning of the year, we brought on Employment Options. So thank you. You're helping me. Me change the lives of people with disabilities. So, as I mentioned, I have two fabulous guests today talking about something that I believe is a very serious topic for everyone in the disability community. And let's get right going here. With Michelle Irwin and Kelly Buckland. And Michelle Irwin is the president and founder of All Wheels Up, and Kelly Buckland, who is, as you know, an ongoing guest because he is so awesome, is the executive director of NICL. And I love having them both on today because this is such an important topic. So I'm gonna start with you, Michelle. Tell us why you became an advocate in the disability community, and welcome to the show.

Thank you, Joyce, for having me on your show today, and it is such an honor to speak with you and Kelly and all of your listeners. So thank you for this wonderful opportunity. I started out advocating in the disability community because my son Grayson was diagnosed with spinal muscular atrophy at 6 months old, and I started advocating just within the SMA community, raising awareness and raising funds before I took part in starting All Wheels Up.

Wow, it's amazing, isn't it, how personal experience can so motivate you? I always say, give me the mother of a child with a disability and look out, what is going to happen. Kelly Buckland, although as I said, uh, at My Choice you're an ongoing guest, how about if you tell everyone what you do?

Yeah, thanks Joyce. Hi, um, and it's, it's always great to be back on the show with you. I am the executive director of the National Council on Independent Living, or we go by NCLIL.. And I've actually been in independent living for a very long time. I ran a Center for Independent Living for 6 years, the State Independent Living Council in Idaho for 15, and now I've been at NCL for going on 12 years, just a little over 11.

So, wow. And always being humble that he is a national disability rights leader, very well known in our country. So, I'm going to talk to both of you a little bit about this in more detail. But Michelle, you mentioned you were just listening to a committee meeting. Could you tell us about that?

Absolutely. So, today is the fourth committee meeting for the Transportation Research Board, or TRB, where they are reviewing information and data from all stakeholders from the aviation industry, as well as the wheelchair manufacturing industry and advocacy groups to discuss the feasibility and the possible future of a wheelchair spot on airplanes. So, it's just a culmination of many years of work to get to this point where the committees are getting together and having really robust dialogue on what could be the future of true accessible air travel.

And Kelly, what do you think about it?

Well, I am really glad to see that they're having these meetings, and I'm really glad to see some of the disability advocates that are doing some of the presentations. I am worried that the airline industry will make it sound as though it's too technically difficult to make this happen, to be able to fly in a wheelchair or in an airplane in your own wheelchair when— I mean, we're able to configure airplanes to make room for coffee pots and toilets and all kinds of things, so we ought to be able to make it technically available to take your own chair onto an airplane. But as I said, I'm really glad to see the hearings happening, and I think the dialogue has been really robust. So that's good.

Boy, is that a good— that would be a good segue, you know that? Coffee, not chairs.

Wow.

You know, when you think about that, we have room for coffee but not chairs. Wow. Okay. Well, Michelle, here's my question. You know, you're obviously a disability advocate.

Advocate.

And by the way, you know, I heard about you from another national disability advocate, Tina Marie Duff, who I love and who is so awesome, would talk about you to me all the time. So I just want to mention hello, Tina Marie. She is such an awesome person. But Michelle, you are a, uh, you know, advocate disability advocate, as you said, because of your son. But many people are advocates in different areas— employment, housing, digital accessibility, so many different areas. So my question is, what caused you to choose the airline industry?

I was actually on a flight with my son, and I could probably spend the rest of your show talking about how difficult that flight was for us. But to briefly just say it was embarrassing, and I was hot, and I was sweaty, and when I was finally sitting in my airplane seat next to my son after his wheelchair was finally stowed properly, I was thinking, there has to be a better way. And I started thinking about the future for my son, and I was thinking, how is he going to do this on his own when he wants to attend college, or when he is employed and is trying to travel for his career? And then I had this, you know, thought, well, how are people doing it today? And realized that this was a glaring white space within the accessible air travel, and I wanted to see if it could be addressed.

Okay. Well, we don't mind if you give us some specifics because I don't think our listeners would totally understand what you mean. So why don't you give them some specifics so they do understand?

Absolutely. So, as a caregiver, I am expected to safely get my child or person that I'm traveling with onto the airplane and into their airplane seat safely. And then I also need to go back to the jetway and disassemble their wheelchair in the safest possible manner to be stowed. So, and all of this takes time, but then also for my child who was young at the age and who is completely paralyzed, He's quite floppy, and I needed to ask the flight attendant to actually stay with him and hold him up. And at first, she was like, "I can't do that." And I'm like, "Well, then I can't go to the jetway and take care of his wheelchair to be stowed." So it was this— she looks at me and I look at her, I'm like, "Well, what are we going to do?" And then she said, "Okay, I'll make sure he doesn't fall over in his seat." So, just that experience in and of itself is, you just, this dread, right? You're like, everybody's watching, there's, you just don't know how to feel about it. And that's just my personal experience. But other difficulties that people face with flying is the transfers. So transferring into an airplane seat can be risky to someone physically. They can be dropped and they can be badly injured with hospital stays. Another, difficulty or obstacle is that wheelchairs are routinely damaged on airplanes. And so when you get to your destination, you might not have a wheelchair to use when you get to your, say, job interview or vacation destination, or worse, your wheelchair isn't even there because it never made it onto the airplane in the first place. I have a supporter on our team who travels regularly for his job, and because he has been dropped so many times on the airplane during transfers that he refuses to fly anymore. But because of this, he now takes a week off of, week of vacation from his personal time to drive to the destination for his work meetings, just so he doesn't have to have the experience of being transferred on an airplane. And I think that's just not where we should be in this day and age.

Right. That is for sure. And this is what led to All Wheels Up. So, what is All Wheels Up?

All Wheels Up is a not-for-profit research organization, and we are the only organization in the world funding and conducting the research needed for a wheelchair spot on airplanes. Our organization first started out with feasibility testing. So, we actually took wheelchairs and wheelchair tie-down systems that are currently on the market just for a proof-of-concept test and tested them at an FAA testing facility. Our organization also is now working with universities all over the United States in all different areas. For example, we're working with Dr. Christopher Lunsford from Duke University and working on papers so doctors can be interested in the impact of, and the benefits of a wheelchair spot on airplanes for their patients and how this would help out with, say, occupational therapy, physical therapy, and physiatry. And we're also working with Wichita State University and the renowned NIAR Center, which is the National Aviation Institute for Aviation Research. And so we are exploring now true real data and research at the academic level. And so we're really excited to pursue that. And our organization, while we're working on the future, we also now are stepping back and recognizing that we really need to address the needs for traveling safe today. And so our organization will— is, um, having application process for people who use wheelchairs and do not feel safe while traveling. So, we're going to be providing evacuation slings, as well as the Disability Cares harness, which is a 4-point harness system to help with trunk support if you feel that you need this device. Because it's— while we work for the future, we also need to address the— issues today.

What is that device?

The Disability Cares harness is a 4-point harness system that slips over the airplane seat and will hold someone who doesn't have a lot of trunk support upright in the airplane seat.

So does this matter— does it matter how tall or large the person would be?

I don't believe so. The CARES harness is for adults. The disability CARES harness is for adults, so I don't think it's restricted to size.

Okay. And when did you found All Wheels Up?

All Wheels Up was founded in 2011.

Well, you know what? I can't believe how much you've accomplished in such a short time period.

Oh, thank you. I think it's taken forever.

No, it takes a lot to do all of that. It really does. I mean, I founded Bender Consulting Services 25 years ago, but the first, you know, like 8 to 9 years, I mean, I was having to work to get companies to even consider hiring people with disabilities. Of course, you know, we're much larger now, and we have been successful moving forward, although we have an extremely long way to go. But you have testified, you're working with academia. I mean, I, I really think you've done a lot.

Thank you very much.

And how did you start the company? How did you get Did you get investors to start the company, or what did you do?

No, we are a not-for-profit, and we are primarily funded just by donors, as well as we grant right here. So, we do receive some small grants throughout the year to do the work that we do, but our organization right now is all volunteer.

All volunteer. Okay, wow. What is your website?

Our website is, uh, www.allwheelsup.org.

Okay, that way if someone wants to see more about it or make a contribution, one more time, what is that website?

Allwheelsup.org.

Allwheelsup.org. Okay, now Kali, I am going to give you time to talk about, and that's why I waited, what you see and have seen as obstacles on planes, because I clearly remember Kali is the soon-to-be chair of AAPD and I am the vice chair. And I remember sitting at a meeting Kelly, with you and you telling me that your friends don't even want to fly. So maybe you could talk about this a little more detailed for all of our listeners.

Well, I think Michelle did a really good job, and I just— and I want to start off by saying, um, you're exactly right. Michelle has, has, uh, accomplished an incredible amount of work in a really short period of time, and she's really added a lot of notoriety to this issue and brought it to the forefront for a lot of people who didn't know anything about it before Michelle was bringing it up. But there really are like a whole set of issues that people with— in wheelchairs confront when they get to, um, when they try to go flying. A lot of, um, people have just given up flying. A lot of the people that I know, a lot of NICL members, just simply don't fly anymore. They drive wherever they go, uh, or sometimes take trains, but for the most part they drive wherever they go because Getting in and out of airplanes has become so unsafe. People have been, like Michelle talked about before, people have been hurt being transferred from their chairs to the aisle chairs. They've been injured being transferred from their seats back to their chairs. A lot of people's chairs are routinely broken.— it's not a once-in-a-while occurrence, it's a routine kind of thing. And sometimes you get to your destination and your chair isn't even there. So all of those things have happened at the airlines and they're supposed to put you on first. Sometimes that doesn't happen, so you which causes a complete mess. And then you're always last off, and a lot of times by the time your chair gets there and the aisle chair folks get there to get you off, you're on the plane 30, 45 minutes after everyone else has left. So, and then sometimes the crew gets really upset at you because you're still on the plane and they're wanting to board the next flight. And that doesn't even include all the stuff you have to go through at TSA, because you're gonna get a body search every single time you go through TSA if you're a wheelchair user. So there's, it's really become a not fun experience, and you would think over the years it would get better, But in my opinion, it's actually gotten worse because planes have gotten smaller. The amount of space in between the seats have gotten smaller. The aisleways have gotten smaller. So all of that stuff has actually made it more difficult.

Well, I have several questions, but let's start with that. As you said, planes are smaller today. So let me think of an example. Well, even American Airlines has a plane that's smaller, like JetBlue does. But this is where you get on the plane and there are 2 seats on one side and 1 seat on the other side. So what the heck do they do in that case?

Well, typically they will put you in the front seat, um, And you better hope they do because if they don't, getting down those aisleways are really hard. And even sometimes getting through the doorway in that aisle chair is a real problem. There's not even room to turn the aisle chair so that you can start down the aisleway. So sometimes they almost tip you out of the aisle chair just trying to turn it so that you can make it down the aisle.

And what about, um, what about the ramp? What is the ramp like, um, you know, to get off the plane? Getting off the plane, what is the ramp like or procedure for getting off the plane?

Oh, you mean like, uh, instead of stairs?

Yes.

Well, they're pretty steep, but Actually, I haven't had too much trouble going up and down the ramp. A lot of times though, they will— it's at a very steep angle and a lot of times they'll take you up the ramp backwards so you're leaning forward. It's really hard to keep your balance. It would be better if they would take you forward, but the problem with that is if they take you forward, then they can't— there's no room to turn it when they get up to the airplane, so they have to kind of take you up backward. But the folks that are going up and down the ramp, I haven't had too much trouble with that.

Okay, because some people would if A, maybe they're larger, or B, they have no sense of balance. You know what I mean? It depends on the situation for the person when they are doing that. And I'll be honest with you, There's some people that are just plain afraid. Yep.

Nervous. The other part is that they, when they use a ramp like that, they do transfer you in and out of your wheelchair outside, right? 'Cause you're sitting out on the tarmac. So if it's raining when they're transferring you, you're gonna get really soaked.

So. Wow, this is not first-class treatment, is it, Kelly?

Uh, no.

Now, now, that's another thing. Then you have to get in those terrible transfer chairs. They're like the most uncomfortable chairs. I know because when, uh, I had my knee replacement surgery, and you know, you can't imagine what it would be for someone, you know, with a more significant disability than me getting on these chairs. They're like so uncomfortable, it's unbelievable. And as my point is, you can see, and as Michelle mentioned, she could be on here all day because there are so many different things that happen. I mean, if I'm right, Kelly, didn't you tell me Also, there are people that have been hurt.

Oh yeah, yeah, I think Michelle mentioned that as well. They, yeah, a number of people have been injured getting in and out of those chairs. And then sometimes they will transfer you into those and take you off the plane and your chair's not out there in the jetway. And you end up sitting in that aisle chair for a very long time waiting for your chair to show up. And they are really uncomfortable. And the thing that's happened in recent years is the, the condition of those aisle chairs has deteriorated and some of them are not in very good shape. And so all of the safety harnesses that are supposed to keep you in the chair don't work correctly either. So sometimes lack of having a safety harness will cause you to fall out of them.

Oh my goodness. You know, so much of this is just terrible. 'Cause Michelle, remember what you were saying about how people look at you, the passengers? I'm sure there are times that the flight attendants aren't real happy when the person is on the plane for a long time?

Absolutely. You know, it is your right to stay on the airplane, uh, as long as you need until your wheelchair arrives at the gate. And, and this is, um, why our organization is also working on budget impact models that will include a Tarmac Turn Time Efficiency study to show the economic side of the pillar and show that if there's a wheelchair spot and someone who uses the wheelchair can get on and off the wheelchair easily, just as they do on, say, a Metro bus today, you won't have the wait time where it's a financial impact for the airlines, but for the wheelchair user, it's that the significance of, "I can do this on my own," and keeping their dignity. In some cases, some people literally have to be carried on like a baby, and who wants to— experience that. So, you know, this is what we're trying to do is find the balance for all stakeholders involved and give the wheelchair community the ease, the safety, and the dignity, and then also provide all of the backup data, all of that meat that the stakeholders are really looking for, and what is the financial impact to them, but also what is the health benefit to the wheelchair user.

Right. And if you're— right now, if you're listening to the show, you know, if you go to Apple or Spotify, you can subscribe to my show, Disability Matters with Joyce Bender. And why I'm telling you this is I really want you to share this and make other people aware of this show, because this is one huge obstacle that people with disabilities, like employment, have not conquered. You know, Judy Heumann Joyce Bender, as you know, is like a, you know, legend in the disability community. So here I have her come to Pittsburgh to speak. What happens? On the way here, at the gate, they're telling her, "We can't fit your wheelchair." You know what she had to do? She had to call Kelly, one of the board members from American Airlines, who took care of this. But then when she got back, Guess what happened? The wheelchair was broken. Just what you said. I thought, this is unbelievable that all these things would happen to her, but they happen to everyone. Not just the Kellys, not just the Michelle Sun, you know, not just the Judy Umans, but everyone, uh, living with a disability. And Kelly, I hope what you said is true. I hope they really do something about this. So, Michelle, give us some examples of what happened when you went before Congress.

Absolutely. So, in 2016, I learned that the FAA Reauthorization Act was out there, and it had a provision for the research for wheelchair spot-on airplanes. And so, I started meeting with people in Congress and started telling them about my organization and the theory at that time that we could have a wheelchair spot on airplanes. Unfortunately, in 2016, the provision was struck from the FAA Reauthorization Act. However, the bill was postponed and it gave All Wheels Up more time. And later in that year, in 2016, we were able to do our actual crash test. And so, in 2017, I went back to Congress, and this time I had video, and I had all of our research data, and I was able to present it to them. And this time, the question was, "What do you need from us?" And so, the provision stayed in the bill, and in 2018, the FAA Reauthorization Act was signed with the provision for the feasibility study for wheelchair spot on airplanes was was intact. And it's like what you always say, Joyce, you know, it's, you know, be that advocate and be the voice to speak up.

That's right. When you get the podium, speak up. I want to say something. I mentioned American Airlines. I don't want to single them out because sadly it's all airlines. It's not just one airline, it's all airlines. And also, I want to tell you, that board member did help Judy Heumann, you know, get on the plane, but You know what, isn't that sad that you would have to do something like that? How about you, Kelly? Have you testified before Congress or been at hearings?

I've been at hearings and we've certainly done advocacy with Congress around this in conjunction with Michelle and a lot of other disability advocacy organizations like the Paralyzed Veterans Association, which has actually done some really yeoman's work around this. And one thing I want to bring up that Michele has done that I think has been really effective in Congress is she's really made the business argument for making airplanes accessible so that you can fly in your own wheelchair and showing the savings, the cost savings that they would get if they were to do that, which I think is really a helpful tool because a lot of times just doing it because it's the right thing to do doesn't really work that well. But if you can show the business case for it like Michelle's done, I think that really helped make it not only the right thing to do, but the smart thing to do.

Kelly, you know what this reminds me of? This reminds me of before the ADA, how you couldn't get on buses, you know, how you couldn't get on— now you can get on the airplane, but not like everyone else, not easily, and not all the time. And that's what it reminds me of, which is why I wanted to ask you first. Kelly, you sort of hinted at this before, but what, what do you think will happen? Do you, do you think this will really move forward?

I don't know. I really hope so. I mean, I, um, I, I am concerned that they will, um, make this like it's too technically hard to do and the Congress and others won't have the, have the political will to make it happen. I had more faith that it would move forward, but, you know, I mean, realistically, COVID And the pandemic has hit airlines really hard, uh, financially and in every other way. And so, um, they're going to be struggling to recover from the economic impact of COVID-19 for some time to come. And I think that, on top of all of the other arguments, um, I'm afraid that that will slow it down. But as I said, I think that's one of the reasons that Michelle making the business case for this is such an important advocacy tool. So as they rebuild, maybe they'll think about this and think about that this is a way that they could actually serve people better and make money at the same time.

Right, because it's another group of people that that, as you said, Kelly, are reticent to fly, that they would be able to get on their planes, which as Michelle is mentioning, is revenues to them. How about you, Michelle? What do you think? Do you think that we'll be able to make progress, or do you think the impact of COVID will set this back?

Unfortunately, I do agree that COVID will be a small a small setback in trying to set up meetings recently in Washington, D.C. The statement, the exact words were, "There's no appetite for accessible air travel right now." And so, I've just, in regards to the Congressional side, took my foot off the gas pedal there, but I've amped up in other areas, such as working in with academics. So we're still moving forward. And something about my organization is we have chapters all over the world. So we are set up in Canada, we're set up in Australia, and we're going to be in the UK. And so, you know, while our work may slow down in the United States, you know, we are looking for, say, other countries who, if it stalls, say, in one country, who might want to, you know, pick it up on their sides politically while we also work through just the research and the development. And this is a multifaceted project, and it's going to take a very long time to come up with what is that tie-down system, the wheelchair that needs to be developed, as well as implementation. So this isn't going to be some sort of, you know, quick fix, and, you know, we will have the solution in, you know, in 8 hours. So as long as we have this, you know, global look at it and say it's a global problem and We need to be in it for the long haul. I think we just need to keep chugging along. I mean, that's my whole organization. I mean, we've been kind of scratching and clawing all these years just to be heard, and now we're here. And so I do wanna believe that we're still gonna have a voice and we're still gonna have work to do.

What do you mean when you say organizations in other countries? Do you mean you partner with other organizations Or do you mean it's All Wheels Up? What do you mean?

Oh no, All Wheels Up is in Canada and in Australia right now. We're set up, we're running, and, you know, we're meeting with their governments to just tell them about the work that we're doing, the research that we're doing, and also partner with their academics just like we are here in the United States. So we do have chapter leaders there who because there's different regulations there and they're familiar with those. And so they meet with their legislative officials just to bring them up to speed so everybody around the globe knows of the work that All Wheels Up is doing.

Okay, now you've only been around 11 years. How the heck did you do that? How did you do that?

The disability community is amazing. You know, they learned of us and they reached out and said, "What can we do?" And, you know, we identified that obviously air travel is global and things cannot only just change in the United States and we need to change it globally. And so we identified that we need to have, you know, leaders in countries and, you know, start taking this to their legislative leaders as well, so change can be made on their side as well as, you know, as we try to find funding for research and, you know, as they can help make new laws.

I think this is unbelievable. What do you think, Kelly?

Oh, absolutely. I, uh, you know, Michelle, I don't know if you know, but Centers for Independent Living are around the globe as well. They're I think in something like 80 countries or something like that. We had an international summit at the NICL conference a few years back, and we had center directors from 20 different countries come. So this is maybe another place where we should collaborate together and see how we can pair up.

I really like that idea, Kelly. Thank you. Yeah, I did not know that, so that's really exciting to hear, and I'm definitely gonna look into that.

And also, you know, we have people around the world listening to the show, and if you are interested, you know, just get in touch with me at voiceamerica.com— Joyce Bender at voiceamerica.com— and they will be sure to get that message to me because this is a global situation, a global obstacle. This impacts all people with disabilities around the world. And you can be sure, Michelle, that I will be talking to my friends from the State Department. Just today, I spoke to Sami from Tunisia, and I will be doing a presentation, uh, 3 of them over the next 2 months because they are so interested in how to move forward quality of life for people with disabilities. But this is something, this is something that can be done anywhere, everywhere. And I, again, I just want to commend you. You definitely are a disability advocate. So, so glad that I got to know you and have you on the show. Okay, so Tommy, yes, if I could add one thing just real quick too.

I mean, international flights have their own set of barriers that you don't find on domestic flights. The, the first class and business class, uh, I think they call them pods or something like that, uh, some of those are— the entrances into them are, you know, where you sleep and that whole thing. Some of those are narrow enough that they can't transfer you from your chair into those pods, so you're basically barred from flying in two classes of international flights. Wow, that's another one.

I didn't know that, Kelly.

I didn't either. You actually ran into as well as me.

And I know what you mean, because when I spoke in Indonesia and these other countries, I was in business class, so I know exactly what you're talking about. But I didn't think about that, in that— do they just say, sorry, you can't fly, or in those areas, or, or what is the situation there?

Basically You don't find out until you go to get transferred in, and then you find out you can't get into the pod. So they either tell you you have to catch another flight, or they will reassign you into a lower class seat.

They'll try to put you in coach. And how uncomfortable would that be, flying 24 hours So, you know, I can't imagine that. That's terrible. That is really terrible. And before we end the show today, I wanted to ask you, Michelle, how has your relationship been with different airline industry, different companies?

Yes, so the aviation industry in total has been very receptive. Our organization has a long history of positive and respectful responsible messaging, and I think because we don't blame or shame any one organization for where we are today, and we're just looking to move forward in the right direction, I think they're open to having these conversations with us. We have hosted two working groups where it was industry-specific. So, we had the airlines, the aircraft manufacturers, wheelchair manufacturers, battery manufacturers, specifically for wheelchairs, and regulatory agencies attend. And again, real robust dialogue about the future and what we should be researching and things that they want us to investigate. And so I applaud all of these industries coming together to have this very uncomfortable conversation. And I think because they are showing up, it really shows their willingness to have a conversation.

And how about you? What do you think, Kelly?

Well, I agree with, uh, they're not blaming or shaming anyone because I think they all are equally to blame. Um, I mean, I sit on one of the airlines.

That's why I said they're all the same.

It's not just— advisory board, and I really appreciate the opportunity to do that and have this dialogue with them. And I think what Michelle said is right. I think as long as we keep having the dialogue, hopefully we'll be making progress. Um, so I think that's an important part of it.

And Michelle, I have a job for you. I want you to share this show with, uh, those in the other countries that you mentioned so that we can get the, the word about your group even known more. So I want you to share this with them, and Kelly, with your, uh, e-list, because what we have to do is we have to continue talking about this because, as you said, If we don't with COVID you know, we'll get left out. So, Michelle, up to this point in your life, what do you consider your greatest accomplishment?

Within the walls of All Wheels Up, I would have to say the conversations that we're having today with the Transportation Research Board and having this committee talk about about the work that we're doing. I think that's exactly why my organization was created, so we could see if Congress could fund the research. And I would say, you know, we've— we, you know, I could be proud of myself today and just say we did what we set out to do.

Yeah, well, that is a great accomplishment. And how about you, Kelly? In this area, what do you consider your greatest accomplishment?

Uh, well, I think it actually— I think it would be a tie between actually sitting on an airline's advisory board so that you'd give direct input into the airline, and, uh, test flying in front of the Transportation Research Board, uh, committee on the feasibility of flying in your own chair. I mean, I do think that was one of the That has been one of the major accomplishments on this. And I think also just getting this into the reauthorization of the FAA bill and having it happen, along with some of the other stuff that we've done on making airline travel more accessible in passing some of the bills. So I think that's all been major accomplishments And again, I would just really give a shout out to the Paralyzed Veterans of America. They've really done some great work on this too.

Yeah, oh, they have. That is an awesome organization. I mean, it was a sad day when Jim Weissman left AAPD, as he too is a national, national leader, no doubt about that. So, Michelle, first of all, thank you for being on the show with us today. And Kelly, thank you for being on again. I so appreciate it. So Michelle, what message would you like to leave with our listeners today?

I definitely want to tell the listeners that their voice matters. And it was because of our supporters and reaching out onto our call to action that we put out there and reaching out there to their senators and their representatives and letting them know that accessible air travel was important to them was one of the reasons that the FAA Reauthorization Act and the provision for a wheelchair spot on airplanes stayed intact, is because their voices were heard. So, it's not just, you know, my voice that was out there. It was anybody out there who used a wheelchair and wanted to be heard and gave their life experience. And so, I just want them to keep up that advocacy that they have in them and keep advocating for themselves. And like Kelly said, there's a lot of organizations out there like the PVA and NCL who were instrumental in moving this forward, and I'm really grateful.

And how about you, Kelly?

Well, I would also encourage those who have given up, like, and stopped flying, to get re-engaged and to start contacting your members of Congress and other advocates and really start pushing this again. I mean, there's no reason that they should have to give up the convenience of flying somewhere because of all these barriers and really help us try to get get rid of the barriers. So encourage other people to get involved in the fight.

Yeah, speaking up, taking time to speak up. And you know what, Michelle, I am really proud of you. I am. We need more young leaders, you know, coming into our world, and I'm really proud of what you're doing, uh, and you are making a difference. It is awesome. And of course, Kelly, what can I say? National leader that you are. But thank you both for being with us today. And we end every show with a quote, and I guess this fits everything we're talking about, and that is, "Alone we can do little, together we can do so much," said Helen Keller. Keller. This is Joyce Bender, America's Voice, where disability matters, at voiceamerica.com. Join us next week when we talk to Danielle Philip about the deaf community. See you then.

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