Business/Disability Community Together to Employ Disabled

Welcome to Disability Matters with your host Joyce Bender. All comments, views, and opinions expressed on the show are solely those of the host, guest, and callers. Now the host of Disability Matters, here's Joyce Bender.

Hi everyone, welcome to the show to all of you in the United States and around the world. We have such great listeners from China to Australia listening to the show. And you know what? That means so much to me. One person, one person at a time can change so much in the country they are in. So, so you know this, that means the world to me. And Richard Roberts, my great friend from the State Department, a special shout out to you. Gangyong in South Korea, Cheryl Harris in Tunisia, Veniamin in Kazakhstan, and Ambassador Norland in Libya, and all of my new friends from Austria. I am telling you, the State Department is great. They are on a mission to make sure people around the world realize that people with disabilities have quality of life. And I admire you all so much, and you are also great friends of mine. So thank you. And hey, Yoshiko, Yoshiko Dart, special shout out to you. I got great news for you, Yoshiko, and to all of our listeners. I am in conversations with our own Historical Society for People with Disabilities in Western Pennsylvania who work with the Heinz History Center, that is a Smithsonian Museum, to archive some of these radio shows. So isn't that awesome? That would be awesome, and I'm really excited about that. And I owe so much of this to Highmark, who is our lead sponsor and has been for the past several years. I Can't tell you how highly I think of the entire leadership team, from Karen Hanlon to Deb Rice to Cindy Hundorfean to Larry Kleinman, you know, all across the board. And for the work Cindy is doing and Veronica in the area of diversity, which I know Tony is on that advisory group, who we will be talking to in a moment. But I wanna mention David Holmberg, will be receiving next year the AAPD CEO Corporate Champion Award for employing people with disabilities. And wow, they really deserve it. So, you know, congratulations to everyone there. Now, this is a great show today because first of all, two people that I really love as guests But, you know, you can't have employment without having businesses, but you can't have success at a business without diversity, and that means including people with disabilities. For a long time, and Tony knows this, there's been a divide between the two because many people with disabilities over the years did not like businesses. Why? Because they weren't being hired, and so much of that has changed today, uh, thanks to work that's going on right now with disability equity, and of course originally with the author of the Americans with Disabilities Act, former Congressman Tony Coelho. And representing an executive and leader from Bristol-Myers Squibb, Tina Marie Duff, who heads up the Disability Business Resource Group, and is a member of the Bender Leadership Academy board, but chair of another organization I'll let you talk to her about, but has become like a national disability rights leader, uh, really making a difference. So I'm going to start, Tony, with you, uh, as you just heard We have a lot of new countries listening to the show, and since what you've done with the ADA impacts the world, but you know what, everyone needs to hear your story. All of our listeners around the world need to hear your story. So, Tony Coelho, author of the ADA, my mentor, closest, closest friend. Would you mind telling our listeners your story?

Thank you, Joyce. I appreciate being on your show, and I really appreciate the fact that I'm on with Tina, who I deeply admire and respect. Um, my story starts when I was 16 on a dairy farm in California. Um, I was milking cows, and next thing I knew I woke up in bed, I had just had a grand mal seizure. I didn't know it was a seizure, I didn't know that it meant that I had epilepsy. And my parents, when told by the doctors they thought it was epilepsy, refused to accept it because under their culture, if you had epilepsy it meant that you were possessed by the devil because of some sin. That somebody in the family had committed. So we went to several other doctors because they wanted to get a different opinion than they got before. So after 3 additional doctors, we then moved to witch doctors. So we, the first 2 didn't really help anything, the third one didn't help. And I finally told my family I wouldn't go to any more witch doctors. I just didn't believe in it, and that started to cause a problem. And to a great extent, what that tells us is that stigma then, that was in the '50s, late '50s, was a huge issue. And stigma is still a big issue today in what people perceive about those of us with disabilities. So my family did into it, and it became an issue that divided me from them. I then proceeded to go on to college at Loyola University in Los Angeles, now called Loyola Marymount. And I was enthused as heck with the Jesuits. I love the Jesuits, the priesthood of the Catholic Church. And I ultimately decided to become a Catholic priest. I always kid and say it to the shock of my girlfriend of 5 years and my fraternity brothers, but Uh, that's what I wanted. And after I graduated, I, um, uh, got my exam and found out that, uh, the doctor said I had epilepsy and that I was 4F. I couldn't serve in the military. And secondly, that the canon law established in 400 AD said that, um, I could become a priest. So the canon law said if you have epilepsy, you're possessed by the devil. You can't enter the priesthood. Well, I was happy to begin with that I knew what my problem was, and I realized that I could do lots of other things. However, when I started going to interviews, there was a word on every job application— epilepsy. And, you know, I checked it. I wasn't going to lie. I had no reason to lie. And what happened is I never got even an interview. And so after a period of time, I started to realize that these were all rejections— rejection by my family, and I felt rejection by my church, I felt rejection by God. Um, I started drinking a lot, was suicidal, and on the day I was going to do the dirty deed, I heard a voice that said, uh, you're never going to let Don't let anybody, anything stop you from doing what you want to do. As a result of that, I got my mojo back. I then ended up living with Bob Hope and his family for a year. For some of you who don't know, Bob Hope was a very famous comedian in the '60s and '70s and so forth. But I lived with his family, and he's the one— the reason I tell you that, he's the one that suggested that, uh, I had a ministry, but I thought it only could be practiced in a church. He felt a true ministry was practiced in sports, entertainment, business, etc., and that where I belonged was in government, but in politics. He felt that that was my angle. I then wrote a letter to my congressman I didn't know, got a job, worked for him for 13 years. And when he retired, I took his place. And my commitment to my constituencies in Central California was that on agriculture and water issues, I would do exactly what they needed and wanted. But on a lot of social issues, uh, I was going to, uh, be a consultant and work on those issues I felt strongly about and help educate my constituents that included disabilities. So I started doing things in regards to disabilities, realized that we didn't have our basic rights, we didn't have our civil rights as a community. And so then I started working on the ADA, and because of a lot of grassroots support all over the country, there was a movement to get something done. And so When I introduced it in the House, 2 years later it got adopted and signed by Papa Bush, George H.W. Bush, and it became the law of the land. And today it's the law of the land in some form of over 50 different countries. I'm very proud of what it has accomplished, and under the current administration, the ADA is being used in regards to voting rights and everything else, because basically those of us with disabilities, on a lot of these things, our rights are impacted. So the ADA is very alive and well, and we're making progress, not as fast as I would like, but making progress. And people like Tina have really helped us out in the business community, and that's really Where the Future Is in regards to making a difference here in the United States in regards to jobs and acceptance for those of us with disabilities. So that sort of summarizes rather quickly what I've done and so forth. So happy to answer any questions or anything that you might have, Joyce.

When did you decide about the Americans with Disabilities Act? Like, what made you think that? How did that—

Well, I had offered some, I offered some amendments in regards to transportation and housing and realized it didn't make any difference because we weren't recognized, and that unless we got our basic civil rights, none of these amendments would have an impact because there wasn't enforcement. So if you were discriminating, people forget that until 1990, an employer could ask you if you had a disability and tell you directly that because of your disability, I'm not going to hire you. And there was no punishment, no negatives. If you went into a movie theater and you were in a wheelchair,, that you could be denied entry because they considered you a fire hazard. If you were to go into a restaurant, you were sight impaired, and you asked what was on the menu, they could kick you out because you were a nuisance. Um, all those things were there until 1990. That's not that many years ago, and people could openly discriminate against us. Now, Joyce, in all fairness, That has been a problem with people of color. That has been a problem with women. That has been a problem with gays over the years. They all got their basic civil rights. And as a result, the Justice Department and others can enforce the law. And that is what we needed to do. We needed to get our basic civil rights. I realized that and started working actually with the Reagan Administration. They were engaged in it and interested. And I worked with them in coming up with legislation and Senator Wyker from Connecticut introduced it on the Senate side, and I introduced on the House side, and that's how we started the process.

Uh, and I don't know if I've even ever asked you this, now that I think about it, but were you, prior to being elected in Congress, just when you were a staffer, were you already involved in disability advocacy then, or when did that start?

Yeah, I was. I was very involved with the Epilepsy Foundation, and I, as a matter of fact, I tried to get on the board at one point, but they did not have anybody with epilepsy on the board. It was all doctors and parents, and, you know, we weren't capable to be on the board. And finally, when I got elected to Congress, I got on the board. But I felt because of— I've had seizures for 60 years, so to put that in perspective, started when I was 16 and I'm now— I'll be 80 shortly. I've had seizures all this time. And so it wasn't like I found out that I had epilepsy and I went through all this discrimination and now everything's good. I still have seizures. I had my grand mal seizure, I know I told you, Joyce Bender, maybe a couple months ago or so. But I still feel it every day. When I get up in the morning, I wonder if I'm going to have a seizure and where it might be. I just don't want to be in a situation where I might have a seizure and hurt somebody else. If I hurt myself, that's a different issue, but I don't want to hurt somebody else. And so that still troubles me, bothers me. But, you know, once you have epilepsy, Joyce, once you have a seizure and you know that that's going to continue, it impacts your life whether you like it or not. I've been able to be very successful in not only in politics but in business and other things as a result. But it still impacts me every day.

Well, you have an amazing story. By the way, I forgot to tell you something. One of the countries listening to the show is Brazil.

Ah, good. I love Brazil.

Yeah, I know you do. Okay, Tina Marie, how about if you tell our listeners about your job, what you do, and why you became this champion for the disability community? And if you don't mind, also tell them about the board that you're the chair of.

Sure. So thanks, Joyce, and thanks, Toni. Every time I get the opportunity to talk with you, Toni, I learn a little bit more about your story and your journey, and always am thankful for the path that you have led for all of us coming behind you. So my journey started, I'm going to say, about 14 years ago. I didn't identify as a person with a disability until later in my life. I think that's because of really a lack of understanding, a lack of awareness, and, you know, some shame that's associated with stigma that goes with different disabilities. But my nephew was born with skeletal muscular atrophy, SMA, and is confined to a wheelchair with very limited mobility. And it was about that time that my family and I really started to look and be able to see that the world was not really created for people with mobility disabilities and just thought that, you know, we could do better and we wanted to make a change. So the organization that my family started was All Wheels Up, which today is still the only organization in the world that is doing crash testing and research to prove the feasibility of a wheelchair spot. On airplanes. So, to answer, so that's how I got into the disability space. I was fortunate enough, I've been with Bristol-Myers Squibb for 22 or 23 years now, and I was fortunate enough to be able to combine my two worlds. Most of my experience at Bristol-Myers Squibb was in a commercial and marketing space. And for your listeners that don't know, Bristol Myers Squibb is one of the world's leading biopharmaceutical companies as a manufacturer of prescription pharmaceuticals and biologics in several therapeutic areas. And we have a commitment of driving innovation in science for the betterment of our customers. And the company is a very strong supporter of inclusion and representation in the communities they serve. They, they We also at PerSmartScript define inclusion by its fullest sense. So I was fortunate enough to be working for an organization or a company that wanted to create intentionality on the inclusion of people with disabilities in the workplace. My job there, I joke I have the best job in the world, I oversee cross-functional and cross-disciplinary projects to drive inclusion and engagement of people with disabilities. Disabilities throughout the organization from both an employment and a customer perspective. I know you mentioned you had some folks listening in Brazil. The team that I lead is comprised of over 2,400 members across 19 countries. So hopefully we'll see some more countries popping in next week. And they're seated throughout the Bristol Myers Squibb enterprise. We collectively have a purpose to foster an environment and a workplace culture that promotes the values of individuals with disabilities and their contributions to our company's mission of helping our patients prevail over serious disease. It's a great space to be in. And the awareness of the D&I, the diversity inclusion space and the belonging space has really helped really ramp up the work that we were doing inside the organization and outside the organization for the inclusion of people with disabilities.

You know, I want to say something about Tina Marie. As all my listeners know, or anyone that knows me personally, I am very careful about endorsing people, but I will tell you, I would endorse Tina Marie. She's not only a very successful businesswoman and extremely professional and bright. She is the real deal when it comes to fighting the fight for people living with disabilities. I mean, you'll hear business people speak and sometimes you wonder, do they really mean it? She really means it. I mean, she really means it. And she is getting more involved and more involved and wanting to learn more and more all the time. We need more people like you, Tina Marie, because without people like you, we won't get people hired. That is what I want to talk about today, is the impact of business leaders as it relates to the competitive employment of people with disabilities. Tony, you have served on many, many boards, and you have been sought out, I know, by many CEOs for consulting. I actually, I remember years ago with that healthcare insurance company when the CEO brought you and as a consultant, but many have reached out to you for, you know, your consulting expertise. And as I said earlier, without companies, we don't have jobs. So do you believe, Tony, that over the past, you know, 5 years, I'll say, that the emphasis on investment and equity will eventually make a difference in hiring? Because sadly, We are now above 73% with the pandemic of people with disabilities not being counted in the workforce. So, do you think this will help us turn the ship?

I sure do, Joyce. I think as both Anna Marie and I have talked about— Tina Marie, I'm sorry— Tina Marie and I have talked about is that stigma has played a huge role in regards to acceptance of those of us with disabilities. And as we are more engaged with the business community in all kinds of different ways, and their acknowledgment that we should be included just like anybody else, that's going to have a huge, huge impact. And so I I really totally agree with that the future is positive. Now, I'm not naïve. I understand that this is going to take some time, and it will, but we are making progress. And I think that the whole issue is that corporate boards, if they will include people with disabilities, the Project that you're working on, as we all know. As you get people with disabilities in significant roles, then that will help out. The second thing is, is that when you consider what is happening generally across the country, across the world, about the acknowledgment that those of us with disabilities can provide tremendous— be a tremendous asset to the business world. Look, I'm, as you pointed out, I've been on several corporate boards, and on each of these boards, I talk about disabilities and make or suggest and, in some extent, make that company be more knowledgeable and available to hiring people with disabilities and participating in any possible way to help our community. But it's going to take an effort. I pointed out a minute ago, it has taken a long time for people of color to get their basic rights. Women, same thing. It's not totally there yet. Gay community, same thing. So those of us with disabilities have to make sure we're willing to fight to make it happen, to educate, to be involved with businesses so that they understand what value we bring to the table, and there is a lot. But all these things have to be pursued and pushed, and more importantly, those of us with disabilities have to believe in ourselves. So that we are willing to push. Nobody's going to push unless we do it ourselves. And so it's important that we work with you and a lot of others. And Tina Marie basically is doing her thing not only with Bristol Myers but with other businesses that she's associated with and the impact that she has because of her stature with other companies. And so that's what it's going to take. Not easy, but progress. And as you point out, the unemployment rate is high, but we are making progress, and that's what's important.

Yes, that's right. And I, I agree with you. And I'm going to come right back to Tina Marie about this topic. But right now, we're going to our news break. Remember I told you about, um, talking to Heinz History Center about archiving our show? Do you know we are the only ongoing weekly show that also provides weekly updated news on what's happening? The only one. And that is because I'm so fortunate to have Perry Jude Radesik, would you mind giving us our news for the day?

Hey, thanks Joyce Bender, it's a pleasure to be here. Well, there's important language access information that's coming from the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. We know it as the EEOC. So the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission If you remember, it's the federal agency that's responsible for enforcing anti-discrimination laws, and that's on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, transgender status, national origin, age, disability, or genetic information. So here's what's important. Last month, the EEOC announced that key online resource documents have been translated into 7 additional languages, and the translations are available to help improve access for people with limited English proficiency. And if you've been on the EEOC website recently, you notice that there's a little bar for language access, and if you press it, you now see, in addition to Spanish, the EEOC will provide those key documents, fact sheets, and publications in languages like Arabic, simplified Chinese, Haitian Creole, Korean, Russian, Vietnamese, and you can go to EEOC.gov to find those new translations. So in making the change, the EEOC recognized that our nation is growing, it's diversifying, and the EEOC wanted to reiterate their commitment to ensuring that all workers and job seekers understand their right to be free from illegal harassment, discrimination, and retaliation. Now, the new languages were based on needs identified by field offices for the EEOC and data— from the U.S. Census Bureau on populations with limited English proficiency. Now, in addition to those languages, the EEOC maintains its commitment to accessibility for people with disabilities. So Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act still requires the EEOC to make all electronic information accessible to people with disabilities. They maintain that commitment on their website. And then for the deaf and hard of hearing community, the EEOC really has 4 methods of ways to contact and talk to the EEOC. They have the 800 number. They have a TTY. They have a dedicated ASL video phone. And, of course, an email address. So advocacy matters. If you want to know more about the EEOC, they host an email and text database for updates on news and essential information. If you go to disabilityrightsPA.org and click on today's Advocacy Matters segment, you'll get a link to sign up for EEOC news, which is so important to all of us. So please be sure to visit disabilityrightspa.org and check out the, the segment for today and sign up for EEOC news and information.

Oh, that is so interesting. Wow, thank you so much, uh, Perry. I'm glad there's the emphasis on accessibility. Hopefully 508 will be reality. Yeah, hopefully that—

Yeah, they've never wavered on accessibility.

Yeah, that's good. That's great. Well, Perry, thank you for that news update, and we'll look forward to talking to you next week.

Sounds good.

Take care. Well, Toni, that access made me think of you when you talked about the number of websites that are accessible today. What is that again?—

that are not. There's an independent group that does an analysis of the internet and websites and so forth as to accessibility. They do this report every 6 months, and their latest said that 98.2%, 98.2%, of all websites are not accessible. And so there's an effort to try to make that happen, to make it happen under the ADA. There was a case that went all the way up to the Supreme Court October of last year a pizza company basically refused to become accessible. They challenged the, the, uh, they challenged the law, and it, uh, they lost on the local level. They appealed to the appellate court. The appellate court ruled against them, and then they appealed to the Supreme Court, and in October, a year ago, the Supreme Court agreed with the appellate court. So they lost that case, and as a result, now the government can enforce it. And I know for a fact that Health and Human Services, the Justice Department, Housing, HUD, and Agriculture are all Congress coming up with regulations to enforce accessibility. This would be a tremendous, tremendous plus, assuming that we can get that done. I do know that they're working on it, and hopefully that will come out very soon. But as we found out during the pandemic, the general public realized just how dependent they were on the internet. Well, those of us with disabilities have the same needs, and we can't even get there. So this is something that needs to be corrected. I— there's been attempts to legislate. I think it's more important to have the ADA enforced, and that is being pursued right now. So I'm very happy about what's occurred there.

That's wonderful. And you know, Tony, I also hope that Section 503 of the Rehab Act also moves forward because hopefully that would finally help us break through the employment of people with disabilities, which Tina Marie, that's what I wanted to talk to you about. As I've said, you are an absolutely, for the disability world, phenomenal business leader and advocate. My whole life is employment, although of course we have Eye Disability, we have High Test, we have the Bender Leadership Academy, but forever I will be about employment for obvious reasons. You've heard us talk about it. What are, what are some of the steps you used at your company to make them aware of the need for employment and inclusion?— you know, what were some of the first steps you took?

So it's a great question, and you know, one of the things before I grab onto that, I wanted to add on to Tony's comment earlier about how, you know, this process is taking time. And you know, I agree with— I completely agree with Tony in the fact that it is taking time. However, you know, most of disabilities in the workplace— I think it's 63% of people who are working with disabilities. They're non-apparent, non-visible disabilities, much like mine, and I have a couple. And it's really— this is two ways, it's two sides of this. It's really what are the companies doing, but really what is the disability community doing as well? And historically, the voice of the disability community has been, you know, the caregiver or an advocacy group. But as the community, as our community has matured in finding our voice, we also need to be make sure that we are stepping up and being vocal and advocating for what we need to remove barriers, right? Self-IDing, self-disclosing, and talking about being a person with disability to help lift and remove the stigma. And I think that's so important and one way that we will help advance our agenda as a disability community. As far as some of the steps I took or that we take as a company in hiring disabilities, I've often been quoted to say a lot of my job is about informing, educating, and inspiring. And the leaders within the company do have the desire to be inclusive of people with disabilities, but if they haven't had disabilities part of their lived experience or if they haven't had a certain area of disabilities part of their lived experience. They may not even be aware of how they're being exclusionary or how they're missing an opportunity to be more inclusive of hiring individuals for disabilities. So a lot of what I do is we look at the process, we look at the journey, and the 4 things that the— our global team focuses on is, first of all, educating. We just held a global event with our friend Maria Town, the CEO of AAPD, and Dr. Farnami Okolami and Toran Ellis on ableism. We had a really one of those tough crucial conversations on what ableism looks like in the workplace and also how it impacts healthcare and health equity. So we do a lot of educating. Next thing that the team does is we really help provide the business rationale and identify the opportunities where we could improve a process. We work with the business teams around the world to help provide some resources and expertise. And lastly, you know, we try to build a system or a process that is inclusive from all, that really is an end-to-end process. So we're not, you know, having exceptions at the end, but we're building it right from the beginning, whether that's universal design or our hiring process,. And I think you and I have talked in the past. You know, one of the things— first things we looked at was, can people with disabilities find jobs at Bristol-Myers Squibb? Are our websites accessible? And I've been following the case that Tony— the pizza case that Tony mentioned, the very famous pizza case— for a long time. And I love to see now that the ADA is being enforced, and that is so needed, and that it's extending to other areas. Besides, you know, brick and mortar. So, you know, that's kind of what we do. We inform, educate, we inspire, we align with the business units, we create the— help create a process, the rationale, and the system so that that business function, regardless of where you're sitting in our company, can start to think about how they can be inclusive of people with disabilities and also hire more people with disabilities.

Oh, that is so awesome. That is awesome. By the way, I agree with you about people self-IDing and, you know, taking a stand. I always tell people, don't talk about it, what you want to see happen, if you yourself don't do it. I know it's hard because of the fear of discrimination, but, you know, if you want to see change, you've got to speak up. That's why when I go to a company and they tell me, Oh, Joyce Bender, I'm so glad you're here. We want to start hiring people with disabilities. I always say, oh, but you already have. They're sitting here right now. They have depression, epilepsy, post-traumatic stress disorder, bipolar, diabetes. It's just they aren't telling you. So we all, we all need to be advocates. And by the way, What you spoke at, which was excellent, is available, uh, because I saw it. Where do people go to see that where you spoke with Maria Town?

Oh, well, that was an internal— that was an internal event, um, but Maria and I have had some external events, and we— I'll post them on my LinkedIn as well.

Okay, Tina, Marie, Joyce, let me just, uh, Let me just add to something that Tim Marie said, and that is that we in the disability community have to be proud of who we are and be willing to speak up and speak out. If we don't, people aren't going to just do something because of the goodness of their heart. We have to make sure that people understand that some of the things that they may or may not do have a negative impact. For instance, we just went through a very big issue just in the last week where CVS was— had a suit that was at the Supreme Court. If they had won that case, it would have had a tremendous impact on the ADA and the disability community. A lot of us in the community worked on CBS folks, on the board of directors of CBS, and had meetings and so forth. And just this past week, CBS announced that they were withdrawing their petition at the Supreme Court. Now, what it took was a lot of people engaged, involved in going after it. CBS, for instance, deals with a lot of us with disabilities for obvious reasons with drugs, prescriptions, and everything else. And so, we have a voice if we're willing to speak up, and in this case we were. And so, it's up to us to— who a lot of us in the community don't speak up and don't get— don't organize and be involved. But if we don't do it, we'll never make the progress that Tina Marie was talking about and that I believe is so important.

I agree with you 100%. Oh my God, that would have been terrible. That would have been so terrible for the Americans with Disabilities Act and our coverage and everything. And I am so proud of all of you, including you, Tony, and Ted Kennedy, and Maria, And all the other groups, Basilon, all the other groups that went together and took a stand, I think that was so powerful. As a matter of fact, I read the comments about this withdrawal from my friend, and I know Tina Marie knows him, David Casey, and I was just so thrilled that, that, that happened. So boy, You gave a great example there, Tony. That is a tremendous example. One thing I wanted to ask both of you, and maybe you could provide an example, is how important you believe it is to get support from the top when it comes to disability inclusion, or as Tony said, accessibility, or hiring people with disabilities. Tony, I'll start with you. Could you give What is your opinion of that, and do you have an example of either where you were on the board or as a consultant where having that support from the top made such a difference?

Well, Joyce, I think it is so important to go to the very top and convince the CEO, chairman of the board, whatever it might be of a company, of what is going on and what is needed. A lot of this responsibility falls with the HR individuals. HR, I'm very pro what HR does, but HR also tries to protect the company, and to a great extent, they don't get involved with expanding out into the disability area. So you don't make much progress there, but if you can speak to the head of Highmark, as you talk about, or the head of Bristol-Myers, so forth, people in the top positions, and they realize what is needed and what hasn't been done and why it needs to change, then they say, go ahead and do it, and all of a sudden it happens. In my cases where, like at SCI, that I'm on the board of, but also at AudioEye, but in all the different companies that I've been involved with—Esquire, Bank—is that by dealing with the CEO or the chairman of the board, they then, once they realize what needs to be done and why it's happening that they're not including people with disabilities in the workforce, All they have to do is say, I want to make a change, and it happens. It's harder to get it from the bottom up in a company, but it's easy if you can get the, uh, an audience with the CEO and convince them.

Yeah, and you know what else, uh, you— I remember you went to, um, Mr. Larry at the insurance company, uh, in Indianapolis. And just by you talking to him, they hired a ton of people.

That's right, that's right. And we had a whole issue there, uh, that I helped him out on, and I did not want to be compensated, but the— what they were going to compensate me on, I gave that to United Cerebral Palsy, and they have started a whole new program based on that. And so getting the attention of the top people in a company when they need you or whatever, but convincing them what needs to be done, then they're willing to do it.

Right, I agree. How about you, Tina Marie? Well, how do you feel about that?

Oh, I couldn't agree more with everything that Tony said. So I do report to the chief HR officer. However, I also get to have regular meetings with our CEO, and our CEO is very visible. He is a member— he has signed our company on to Valuable 500. He's done the CEO Are You In? from the Disability:IN! campaign. And having that support at the top level really allows for the doors to open for all the other work to be done. And when you go to the Breast of I Squibb website, you'll see the CEO statement to inclusion, you'll see our journey report, and you'll even see the, the people in business resource leaders, myself and my peers, are listed there on the site after our C-suite, after our board of directors, they also list our names, just showing the emphasis and the value and importance of how they define and how we define inclusion, diversity inclusion for the company.

Yes, and it does make a difference. I can tell just by seeing the impact that they've had at different levels that you've been involved with. And Tony, Something you talked about, you and I have an initiative, the Bender-Cuello Initiative, which at the beginning of next year we're going to push hard. But what we are doing is we are trying to stress the importance of attempting to get people on boards, people with disabilities on boards, because that would be so wonderful if that happened. Why do you think that's so important? To have this initiative?

Well, Joyce Bender, as I indicated, being on boards, I've been able to push initiatives that I think are important. On several of the boards, I've insisted that women be included. A lot of corporate boards don't have women on the board, and I have felt strongly that that needs to be done. What happens, it changes the whole dialogue of the board meeting. It changes the emphasis of what you're doing because women bring to the table a different point of view and different experiences and so forth. And I think it's critical that you have women on corporate boards. Now, I think it's the same thing with disability. Is that you, when you, we just went through a program at one of my boards where we were talking about a new initiative, and I questioned whether or not that included people with disabilities. Well, they immediately said, "No, we'll make that happen." Well, it's that type of thing if you are, If you're a woman or gay or a person of color or somebody with disability, if you're on a corporate board, you then bring something different to the table, and you are then reflective of who you are and the community that you're involved in. It doesn't mean that that's your only focus. It just means that those are your life experiences, and you add to the dialogue of whatever is happening at that company with your experience. Experiences. That's why this initiative is so important, is to try to make sure that we get companies to place people with disabilities on their boards. Now, as was pointed out by Tina Marie and others, is that there are a lot of people with disabilities who do not acknowledge their disability. They are in high positions and would be excellent board members. If you don't know who they are, then it's impossible to put them on the board, and if they don't acknowledge their disability, they probably won't bring that experience to the table. So it's a problem that is really needed, and I applaud you, Joyce Bender, for pursuing this. It's something that not only, in my view, helps out the disability community, but I think that it also helps out the business that you're involved with because you bring that different experience to the table and you relate to the clients of that particular company.

Well, I, you know, I would always say when I'm talking to Tony, just think what would happen if they had a board member with a disability. Oh, what's your strategic plan for employing people? Oh, are all your materials accessible? I mean, you would see so, so much happen. So That is why Tony and I, if you know both of us, we're not going away. We're going to be knocking on your door about this because it is so important. So, Tony, um, what message do you have for our listeners today? And then Tina Marie, what message do you have for businesses today?

Tony? I would just say that those of us in our community, as I pointed out several times today, need to self-identify and need to be part of the community so that we can get the changes that are needed for us to participate in society like everybody else. I've often said to the last— well, 5 of the last 6 presidents that there's no community that supports paying taxes like ours. And the answer is, why? Well, pretty obvious. If you have a job, you can pay taxes, you can provide for yourself, you can provide for your family, and so forth. So it's a question of us as a community being willing to be open, aggressive, and point out what is needed. That's what is really important. On the other side, I'll let Tina Marie handle the corporate side, but I think there's an obligation there as well. Thanks, Tony.

How about you, Tina Marie? What is your message?

So, 3 quick things for advice. First of all, be intentional and get started. You know, build the trust with your employees because especially the Generation X, Y, they're looking at the words you're using and the actions you're taking. Secondly, be informed. There is plenty of data that demonstrates the value for both the business and the economy when there's a focus on hiring people with disabilities. And finally, remember, nothing about us without us. People with disabilities need to be at the table for all the decisions and all the processes. It'll be more inclusive and more effective and more impactful for the company. Can you believe her?

Tony, nothing about us without us. She— hello! I know, that is so awesome. Well, I will tell you, I am so happy. Thank you both for being on the show today. They are such rock stars. And we end every show with a quote, and today that quote is— oh, and this also reminds me of Tony. Do what you feel in your heart to be right, for you'll be criticized anyway, said Eleanor Roosevelt. This is Joyce Bender, America's Voice, where disability matters, at voiceamerica.com. Talk to you next week, and remember, choose joy.

Voice America would like to thank you for tuning in. Please join us next Tuesday at 11 AM Pacific Time and 2 PM Eastern Time for another installment of Disability Matters right here on the Voice America Variety Channel. We are the leader in live internet talk radio. VoiceAmerica.com.