Craig Leen: Shares Commitment to Advocacy for Those with Disabilities in Both Public and Private Sectors

At Highmark Health, we believe what makes us unique makes us better. Our differences broaden our perspectives and foster a variety of skills to complement each other, creating a stronger and more vibrant workforce. It's this belief that earned us recognition as the Best Place to Work for the 10th year for individuals with disabilities in a survey by the American Association of People with Disabilities and Disability:IN. We'll continue to celebrate and benefit from the inclusion of all people. To find out more, visit highmarkhealth.org. Welcome to Disability Matters with your host Joyce Bender. All comments, views, and opinions expressed on the show are solely those of the host, guest, and callers. Now the host of Disability Matters, here's Joyce Bender.

Hi everyone, welcome to Disability Matters with Joyce Bender. Always so appreciative for all of you that listen to this show and tune in. And hey, tune in in a couple weeks because guess what? We're gonna be going live. I'll look like CNN on, with my guest. But I, you know, I've been doing this 22 years. I have my 1,000th episode this year. And you know, I couldn't do that without all of you. So really from the bottom of my heart, and I mean it, thank you so much. You know how else you can help me help other people with disabilities? Like me living with epilepsy, if you don't mind telling other people to listen to this show, because do you know we are the only show anywhere, anywhere where you can go every week and hear what's going on in the news? Like, we don't have our own CNN, you know, when you're watching TV. We don't have that. Update on what's going on with us, but we do. So make sure you tell that to everyone. And of course, I am going to give a shout out to my friends around the world. Oh my goodness, we have 73 countries now. 73. 73. And Germany, you're up there, let me tell you. Thank you for your support and to all of my friends. Richard Roberts, who just recently left the State Department, and, you know, I traveled with him to Japan and to South Korea. I love him so much. He will always be a disability rights advocate. And Gangyong Cho in South Korea. Hello, Gangyong. I love you so much. Had such a wonderful time with you there at the embassy. And really to all of my friends from the State Department, you know, I always say I couldn't have done any of this without you. So thank you all so much. Special shout out Yoshiko, every show for years and years. Special shout out to Yoshiko Dart because I'm all about education, disability history, and of course, She is the wife of the late, great Justin Dart. And Highmark. Oh my God, you are the high mark in this country for people with disabilities. Thank you for sponsoring this show. You are absolutely wonderful. It's the only word I have. Well, I must tell you, I'm very honored today, very honored to have with me Craig Lean. I first met Craig Lean years ago during the first Trump administration, and he was the head of OFCCP. And you know what I can tell you about him? He's a disability advocate. That's what I have to tell you. He cares about people with disabilities. You know what else I have to tell you? He's humble. Because, you know, he's a big shot, Craig Lean. And at the Disability:IN! conference, he ran over to me to say hi to me, and he is now with K&L Gates, but presidential appointee, head of OFCCP. Craig, it is a pleasure to have you on the show.

Thank you, Joyce Bender. It's an honor for me to be here. I've heard so much about your show. I've heard your show. I've been wanting to be on it for some time. I let you know that, and you You have me on your show. I'm really grateful for that and looking forward to it.

See what I mean about him being a disability rights advocate? And, uh, it's an honor for me to have you on the show. But thank you. You know, my listeners, here's what happens. They get back in touch with me and they'll say, wow, that was really a great guest. I wish I knew more about him. So Craig, let's hear your story. Like, you know, How did you get into this field? You know, where'd you grow up? How— where'd you go to school? Tell our listeners a little bit about your story.

Certainly, I'd be happy to. I was born in Miami, Florida, in North Miami, and I grew up in Miami. I moved from there to Washington State, uh, see, the Seattle area, Bellevue, when I was about, um, 10 turning 11. And that's really where I started getting involved in, in, uh, the disability area. Pretty young, actually. I was in middle school and I participated in some programs with our school. The schools I went to, they were public schools, uh, middle school and high school— Highland Middle School, Interlake High School. They had a large contingent of people with disabilities at the school. It was a large group. And they had programs for people with disabilities. I thought that was very interesting. I was glad that our school did that. A lot of my friends had disabilities and some of them had fairly significant developmental disabilities. I was involved with— they had a number of peer mentor, peer tutor, natural helper type programs where as I became older and more senior at the school, I would work with a lot of people with disabilities. I got involved with Special Olympics in middle school. I was a coach for softball, and I loved it. I really enjoyed being involved with that, and then I continued that when I was in high school. Some of my best friends, I remember we had a number of people with Down syndrome. I remember them well. A couple of them were two of my best friends. I would have lunch with them a lot, and We would talk and I was the president of the school and they would come to me with petitions and things that they wanted to do. And of course, I would always be open to that and I would work with them. So I'd say middle and high school, that was a big thing I did. I was a runner also, and that's still a big part of my life. I was in track and cross country. I was the captain, co-captain of those teams. I won the city championship in the 800, and I was the ASB president, and I was very involved in the— I had a wonderful time in high school. And, but a big part of that was being involved in disability. And then I've always continued in that area. So I went to college at Georgetown, law school at Columbia. I continued to take civil rights or government-oriented classes. I always remained very interested in that. In college, I served in the Clinton administration as a White House intern in, uh, in 1994. I was in the Office of Agency Liaison, which did a lot of casework for veterans and people with disabilities, as well as other groups. So I was involved with that. I was told later I was one of the only people to have served— I understand it was as an intern, but one of the only people to have served in the Clinton administration and the Trump administration. So I, um, I was— I did that. I also worked for my congresswoman, um, Jennifer Dunn from, uh, Bellevue at the time. And, um, so I got a little bit involved in government. Then I went to law school, stayed involved. I did a lot of— I'd say a lot of my, um, advocacy in law school was in the asylum area. I took asylum law. I represented some asylees along with a law firm. But I continued to be involved in disability law too, and it continued to be an interest. I then went and worked for several law firms. I did that for a few years, but after about 5 years, I went to Miami-Dade County and joined their civil rights section. They call it the federal section, and we, we were responsible for representing the county when it was sued in federal court, usually under a civil rights law. So in that sense, we were defending the county against a civil rights claim. But also, a big part of my job, particularly as I sort of went up the ranks and became the head of the section, was to advise the police department, the parks and recreation department, corrections, um, the different— there was like 60 county agencies— advising them on compliance with federal civil rights laws, in particular the ADA. I did a number of cases, and I did a number of— quite a bit of advice on the ADA to try to help Miami-Dade County be more compliant with the ADA. It's around that time my wife and I— my wife's always been involved in the disability area. She's a psychiatrist. She works with people with mental health disabilities, and she's currently at Georgetown, where we met when we were in college. We live not so far from there where we met. 31 years ago. And, uh, she, she, she's a counselor. Well, she's, she's the psychiatrist in the counseling service for the university and law school. So she's worked in that area. But, you know, we had a child, Alexandra, um, in, in 2011, and I was at the county at the time. And she, around 2 or 3, began to show significant signs of autism and intellectual disability. So I became very involved with her, trying to advocate for her to get a good program at her school, a good IEP that would provide developmental and other supports for her so that she could continue to grow and thrive in the school environment. And we had some difficulty, I'd say, at the time with Miami-Dade County Schools. They've improved since then, but we had some difficulties getting the speech therapy and other therapies that she needed, the amount that we needed for her. So that's where I started really becoming an advocate, I'd say, more than someone that worked in the field or supported people in the field. But I started to advocate for her, and then I saw how difficult it was to get these supports for Alex. And so I started advocating more broadly. And trying to get insurance to cover autism services, for example, in Florida. Becoming an advocate to amend Florida civil rights law to include people with mental health disabilities or mental disabilities, not only physical disabilities, 'cause their laws had physical disabilities, but it left out everyone else. So, you know, I started advocating for things like that. I became the city attorney of Coral Gables, Florida, which was a beautiful city, wonderful city, but when I started there, did not have much of a disability inclusion program. And in fact, I would often talk about my daughter wanting to learn how to swim at our local pool, the Venetian Pool, which I say local pool, but it's one of the grandest pools in the world. I mean, you should look it up. It's a pretty cool pool. But they wouldn't accommodate her for her swim lessons because they didn't feel like they had sufficient support. And so, and then I also remember at the youth center, they didn't support her. They, they were not able to support her. So when I became city attorney, I became very focused on that. Like, oh, this is happening to my daughter. It must be happening to a lot of residents in, uh, Coral Gables, a city that's known for its customer service, and yet it's not doing so well in this area. And so That led to what was called the Principles of Inclusion, which I helped spearhead along with the city commission. And that was a huge movement in Coral Gables to fully involve people with disabilities in all aspects of city services, employment, accommodations, parks and recreation. So I became known for that, and I started going around Florida talking about these issues and trying to convince other cities to adopt these disability inclusion programs, autism at work programs, things like that. And I came to the attention— we've gone pretty far now. I was there from 2011 to 2017. It came to the attention of the Secretary of Labor, actually, who at the time was the— he was the Dean of Florida International University Law School, Alex Acosta. Who lived in Coral Gables, got appointed, knew about my work in the, in the civil rights area, offered me the OFCCP position. And, you know, talked to my wife about it, who at the time was a psychiatrist in Florida. We actually thought it would probably be better for our daughter Alex to, to move up to D.C. because there was a long Medicaid waiver list in Florida. She had been on that list for some time. A lot of it, we had to cobble together her services, her healthcare, her education, where we were sort of— we were homeschooling her actually, but we hired a teacher. We used the Gardiner Scholarship, which was a scholarship they had in Florida. We worked with Crystal Academy, which provided the teaching and the services. A lot of it was covered by insurance, including by my by my employer, City of Coral Gables, which I had advocated for them to include autism services and other disability services, which they did. So, you know, but nonetheless, it was still, it was still something that we had to put together. It took a lot of time. We thought that it would be a good opportunity for her to come to DC. There were a lot of opportunities for her. And then our son, who was diagnosed on the autism spectrum when he was very young, he actually had He got a lot of services right at the beginning and really responded well to that. There may still be some impacts, but he's in a typical classroom and you would not know that he was on the spectrum unless he told you. He allows me to mention it because it was also— I know I'm talking a lot in answer to this question, but we saw the experience of our daughter and the experience of our son, And we got our— our son was diagnosed at a much earlier age, at 1, and he got a lot of supports right away. And at that point, there were more supports available too in the 4 or 5 years that have passed. So he responded really well and is completely independent. He's a track star. He's doing really well at school. He's brilliant. You know, he's a wonder— he's doing wonderfully. My daughter, who is equally as wonderful, has a lot more challenges and is not as independent and still needs a lot of supports. One thing I started doing was going to the state, actually the state legislature. I was on the constituency board for the Center for Autism and Related Disabilities and the CARD Center for Florida. We would go and I would point to the example of my daughter and my son and how important it is early diagnosis and supports So I started advocating there, got the call to go up to DC, became OFCCP director. And because my— in the civil rights field, I had worked in all aspects of the civil rights field, but because my focus had been so much on disability, that was my, I'd say, my primary focus as OFCCP director, which was unprecedented, I would say. I know a lot about the OFCCP directors. All of them support disability inclusion. But they had typically not made that their primary focus. And often they would not talk about it much, or it wouldn't be as much. 503 would be over here, Section 503, which OCCP enforces, but they would focus more on Executive Order 11246, women and minorities, less so on disability and on veterans. And in fact, our enforcement statistics showed that only about 1%, literally 1%, of recoveries would go toward disability. And, you know, considering that it's the most common complaint that the EEOC receives, more than race or sex discrimination, it's disability discrimination, it was surprising to me that such a little part of what OFCCP did was focused on 503. So I wanted to change that. So I made that a big focus, created a focus review program, became very involved with the self-ID form, Section 503. I got a lot of support from the first Trump administration in doing that. And so, um, really enjoyed my time at OFCCP, uh, became known as a disability advocate, was very involved with that, very successful in a lot of ways, which I'm very— which I'm proud of. Got well known, and, and I've continued to be a disability advocate since then, self-identified as having a disability. I used to be more known in the caregiving area I still am probably because of my daughter's autism and, you know, running marathons with her. I push her in a wheelchair. We run marathons together. We do all sorts of things together. I write a lot about it to help other parents, you know, realize that, you know, some parents, they get, they get very down or despondent when their child is diagnosed with autism and they shouldn't. It's a broad spectrum. There's a lot of opportunity for someone to advance. A lot of people on the autism spectrum view it as part of their identity and don't view it as something negative at all. They view it as something positive. But the point is, even if there are more extensive supports, it's still something that you can embrace and help your child do well, and it's something that could be a very meaningful part of your life. And, you know, I love my daughter dearly. I wouldn't change her. I want her to be more independent if possible, so that she can do more things and make more decisions. But, you know, I accept her how she is and I'm grateful for her. So the point is, you know, I did a lot of advocacy for caregiving and talking about caregiving and speeches. But now I, you know, I also, when I saw the self-ID form, I saw I had a couple of conditions on there. So I started self-IDing as well. And so I become a self-identification advocate too. And I'll tell you one last thing before I finish this very long answer. You know where it really occurred to me? Because I'm a lawyer and I've worked with different lawyer organizations and I've done different presentations on, you know, alcohol in the law and trying to decenter alcohol from events. I've done it on mental health issues in the law, depression in the law, trying to provide supports to people so they won't harm themselves in the law. And when I was doing that, I saw that a study that said over 60% of lawyers identify as having depression or anxiety during their careers. And of course, you know—

Did you say 60?

60, over 60.

Wow.

The study said. And what was fascinating to me, well, one, of course, we need to provide support for those individuals. But also, what was interesting was when you look at the study that they do every year, NALP, which does the study for like representation among law firms. And usually we're pointing to statistics that show that 75% of equity partners are men and 25% are women. And we need to work to try to eliminate glass ceilings. But there is one stat that says that only 0.47%, I remember the last time I looked, 0.47% of people that are partners identify as having a disability. I was thinking, but what about the 60% that have a mental health disability? They're obviously not identifying as having a disability. I started looking at the statistics, talking to some of the people at OFCCP, the economists, and I came to the conclusion, I know that the stat that's usually used is about 25% of people have a disability in this country. But actually, if you look at the self-ID form and you include neurodiversity, people who are neurodivergent, and you include all the mental health disabilities and all the medical conditions, it's well over 50%, I believe. And certainly at some time during our lives, all of us will have a temporary or permanent disability at some point. So this is something that really impacts everyone, and it's something that, you know, we often talk about as universal design, but the more that we do to include and advance people with disabilities, the more that we do to include an advanced society as a whole and American life. It's good for our country. I always like to say that, and it really is. It's something that is a business imperative in addition to being a civil rights obligation and a good thing to do.

You know what? Thank you. That was just outstanding. Okay. Thank you so much. You covered so many very important things, and also thank you for your your advocacy for so many things. I can't believe how long you were involved in this. That's awesome. That's wonderful. And, you know, I'm on a crusade. This is actually my 30th year in business at Bender Consulting Services. Hard to believe. And over those years, I've found employment for thousands of people with disabilities, even 10 years at the National Security Agency. And I do want to say one thing. When Craig was the head of OFCCP, I'll never forget this. Two federal contractors, when I was at a meeting, they said, "Oh yeah, well, we won't have to worry now because we have Craig Lane from the Trump administration, so we won't have to—" be concerned. And afterwards they said, oh my God, he takes this seriously. Oh, I loved it when that happened. I thought that was so awesome. And that is how he is, by the way. Um, and I think it's important for all of you listening with disabilities to know how much character this man has. I mean, you know, he took time to be on here. You heard his whole story, which was Clearly disability and civil rights throughout your career, a thread throughout your career, which I just think so highly of that. Well, Craig, here's a question for you, and this just happened yesterday. A federal contractor, a large company, said— got in touch with me and said, Joyce Bender, we'd like to hire people with disabilities in our artificial intelligence area. Which I have candidates, and they said, but, you know, we don't think we can. We're worried about working with you because, you know, you cannot call anyone and say, I want to hire a person with a disability. So what's the answer to that question?

Absolutely, they can. It's not— they're not correct. They can hire people with disabilities. In fact, they should. Particularly if they're a federal contractor or fund recipient, you know, you're— even in the current Trump administration, they're saying you have to comply with federal anti-discrimination law. But what they mean by that is, in the disability area, that you're supposed to do— particularly federal contractors— you're supposed to do affirmative action for people with disabilities. And I understand that the administration hasn't been so keen on affirmative action, and But when they haven't been and they've been sort of publishing this information that has been against DEI programs, for example, it's been very focused on women and minorities, on race and gender. And the reason I say that is because, you know, they're taking an approach where they're saying that you can't consider race or sex at all in employment. You have to take action without regard to race or sex.. And so, and they're, they're proceeding very strictly in that regard. So it is true if you're a federal contractor, you do have to be careful about affirmative action for women and minorities. I would re— I would call that an anti-discrimination program and focus more on eliminating discrimination against women and minorities as well as all employees. Include, include men in those programs, include white employees in those programs. Make sure you're eliminating discrimination for all groups. That's still going to benefit women and minorities quite a bit because there's still a lot of discrimination in this country. And then everything you're doing, I would focus it on eliminating discrimination. That's what I would call it, and that's how I would focus it. But in the disability area, the law is a lot different and the administration's approach is a lot different. In the disability area, you are supposed to consider disability under 503. That's what the statute says. It doesn't say without regard to disability. It says that you have a duty to hire and advance in employment people with disabilities. So, and the reason why they can do that and that, that doesn't, that, that's not illegal is because being non-disabled is not a protected class. Whereas being, every person has a race or ethnicity, a gender or gender identity, And anything you do that favors one, you could argue, disfavors another. So that's why they're saying that in that area, you can't— you have to make decisions without regard to race or gender. That's not true for disability. So you're allowed to. And the administration has published guidance saying that they're continuing Section 503, that they're continuing written affirmative action programs, they're continuing outreach and recruitment. There's something, you know, I think we're probably going to talk about later, but They are trying to sort of walk back self-identification and the utilization goal, which I don't— I think that I'm hoping that they can be convinced not to do that. We could talk about that, but, you know, they're still supporting Section 503. They're still receiving complaints if someone violates it. They're still— Office of Personnel Management published a memo saying they're continuing to do accessibility and accommodations focus. The Office of Disability Employment Policy has started to do presentations. Where you have a presidential appointee like I used to be telling people, "You've got to do disability inclusion. Make sure you're using the Job Accommodations Network. Make sure you're doing accommodations and inclusion." So disability and veterans are safe areas where you can do a lot of work. And in fact, if you're thinking about pulling funds from your civil rights or equal employment area, I would not do that. I would put those funds into disability, actually, because there's still a lot to be done there. And so, again, a longer answer. The short answer to your question is you are allowed to consider disability. There's nothing that prevents that. And I've seen nothing from the administration saying that that concerns them. So I see very little risk in that area.

Okay. And no, thank you. And as for me, I am an organization that focuses on finding employment for people with disabilities because, as you well know, you talked about autism, there are many disabilities, and I— and it's not new, by the way. Now, this sadly has been going on forever because here I am today and 70% of people with disabilities are still not counted in the workforce. So through the different administrations, Democrat or Republican, the employment has always been an issue. So I focus on, uh, providing employment for, you know, when I get openings for people with disabilities. Now, is that, is that against the law? No, that's something you should do.

That's a great thing to do. The, the U.S. government continues to do that. With Section 501 of the Rehabilitation Act, with Schedule A hiring. You're allowed to consider disability positively in employment. People with disabilities have a lot of resilience. They have a lot of life experience. A lot of times they have a lot of skills, and they can add to the workforce. And because they're not granted an accommodation, for example, they may not be able to, but you have a legal obligation to grant them that accommodation, assuming there's not an undue hardship, which there rarely is, if they're able to do the job. So with the accommodation, so, but it's, it's not even a matter of legal requirement. I mean, it's something you should be doing, uh, to, to hire the best people. If you want to do merit-based hiring, which is what the federal government is telling you to do, you should be considering people with disabilities and granting them those accommodations and then hiring them based on merit. A lot of times they'll be the most meritorious person. But the point is you're allowed to do disability hiring programs. You can have autism at work programs, neurodiversity in the workplace programs. You can have employee assistance programs focused on disability. You can advertise and recruit directly people with disabilities. You can work with Joyce Bender, for example. That's a great thing to do. You can work with vocational rehabilitation agencies. All of that continues to be legal and encouraged.

Wow, I'm so glad to hear you say that. And I just want to say, people with disabilities, okay, on the front of my website it says, "Paychecks, not pity," you know, and as Tony Coelho always says, "Give us the right to be fired." So forever, for 30 years, I would tell companies, this is not charity. This is a business investment. Just today, Craig, I talked to a federal contractor and they said, "Boy, we haven't worked with you for a while. Did we ever work with you?" I said, "Oh, yes." I said, "You placed Emily. We placed Emily with you in IT." And they said, "Emily?" So they look it up. Oh my goodness, which I knew this, but she has been there like 15 years or something. And that is what I mean about— and that's not a superpower. It's not that people with disabilities have some superpower. It's if you're left out, I don't care if you're a woman, African American, I don't care what you are, but if you can't find employment, when you get it, oh my goodness, you're going to relish that. So Uh, it is, it is a good business investment. Uh, Craig, I forgot to ask you this, but K&L Gates, what is your area of specialization?

So I'm in the labor and employment practice area, and then I do a, uh, and then government contracts and public policy. So I do those 3 practice areas, and then I do, uh, I've created my own sort of affirmative— well, I'm the head of our co-head of our affirmative action and OFCCP compliance area. And then I do a lot of civil rights work. So I do Title VI, Title VII, Fair Housing Act, all the different employment laws, ADEA, ADA, all that. And then I also do public accommodations law. So I have a civil rights practice. I help companies comply with civil rights rules. And then I do work with disability organizations. And I advise them. I help put them together. I serve on some of their boards and also represent disability organizations.

Yes, I think you spoke at Disability:IN. I did. If I'm right, not once, not twice, but I think 4 times or something like that.

6 times. Twice, though, were smaller, like group meetings where I was working with Disability:IN DC Metro and then I gave 3 or 4 presentations, as I recall. Um, so I loved it. What a tremendous conference.

Oh, I know. You know, I am over there. Yeah. I am the first Doby. Can you believe that? The first out of, out of now 800 disability-owned business enterprises. There are now 800.

I should mention. For all those out there, you know, there's also been a push by the Trump administration against supplier diversity programs to some extent. It doesn't apply to disability-owned business enterprises. You can work with disability-owned businesses as much as you'd like. You can include them in your supplier diversity programs. Again, there's nothing that prevents you working with people with disabilities or businesses owned by people with disabilities. That's not— you're not discriminating against anyone. You're supporting disability. That's allowed because, again, being non-disabled is not considered a protected group. That's the legal reason, but it's a big reason. And then because of that, you can do as much as you want in the disability area, and that's great, and you should.

Jennifer, are you here? Yes, I am. Oh, sorry, sorry, Jennifer. I did not see that you were on before. Okay, well, I have to do my thing, Jennifer. This is Mathis on the mic. Craig, I tell everyone, I'm so thrilled I have her doing the news every week. This is— I couldn't get Rachel Maddow, so here I have Jennifer, uh, who is so awesome. But I'm sure, Jennifer, you were enjoying that conversation. I was, I was.

It's great. And last week, I think on the news segment, we talked about Section 503. So good segue to today. So this week, I thought that I would just give people a little bit of an update on the Department of Energy Direct Final Rule that we had talked about back in May. So on May 16th, the Department of Energy had published what they call a direct final rule rescinding, eliminating the new construction standards for accessible new construction for people with disabilities that applies to the entities that Department of Energy gives financial, federal financial assistance too. So that was a very big deal after many, many decades since the 1970s. The agencies have all had new construction requirements. That is something that is required by Section 504 is that you have accessible new construction. So for the most part, I think regulated entities want to know what the standards actually are. And of course, people with disabilities would like to know what the standards are and ensure that they're being met. And so for an agency to, after all of these decades, suddenly rescind the new construction accessibility standards was a very big deal. They did it using a mechanism that is supposed to be for little technical, non-controversial changes. This was nothing remotely non-controversial. It was a very big deal. And so they had said that the rescission was effective starting in 60 days. It was July 14th. And if they receive significant adverse comments, which usually would defeat a Direct Final Rule, you can't use that mechanism if there's going to be significant adverse comments. They said if we get significant adverse comments, then we will either do a new rule considering the responding to the comments that we received, or we'll rescind our rule. So July 14th came, and because of all of the concern and organizing in the disability community, they recognized that they had gotten significant adverse comment. There were almost 20,000 comments that were filed, and nearly all of them were opposing that rule that would rescind the new construction standards. They have extended the effective date of this final rule to September 12th. And what they said is that they will consider the comments that they received. So we don't know what they're going to do, given the overwhelming, overwhelming comments that said this is a bad idea and we think it's unlawful and it's, you know, creates conflicts with other agency rules and it, you know, these are the standards that people have relied on for more than 4 decades. You know, I would hope that they would decide not to proceed with rescinding the standards. We will see. There's no action item at this time. I just wanted to provide an update. We'll have to wait until September 12th to see what they decide to do, and I'll update folks again at that time, and then we will have a better sense of where we are. I will just note that I think given that they can't do a direct final rule because they got significant adverse comments, and you can't do a direct final rule when you get significant adverse comments, I think they're bound by the regular notice and comment requirements, and that means they have to respond to all the significant comments. And it is not clear that they're going to do that. They actually put a note into this most recent notice that they, they published saying, we still think that we don't have to do notice and comment because this is a procedural rule. And this is not a procedural rule. This is a rule about a substantive standard. So I think they are wrong. But again, we will see what they do. They did say that they were going to consider the comments, so we'll see what that looks like, and we will take it from there. But that's my update for this week.

Well, thank you. You'll have to keep us apprised of what happens. But for all the listeners, do you see the power of your voice? No matter what it is, Look at the power of your voice. You know, that obviously made a difference. That's why I tell people, you have to speak up. Speak up. Well, Craig, I'm going to keep Jennifer on with me so I can ask you, yes, about 503. Let me just tell you where I'm confused. Okay. I was at this disability meeting and they said, oh my God, you know, 503. Is being reduced till there will not be an aspirational goal. So we no longer have to worry about it. I think you mentioned it has not— it is not in effect yet anyway. Am I right about that?

Yes, it's not in effect. It's, um, it's open for comments, but they'd have to go through that whole process. Then they would adopt a— let's assume— I hope that they don't. I think that there's a reasonable chance that they won't do everything that they've said. But let's say they did exactly what they said. They'd have to wait through September 2nd. It's a lot like what Jennifer said. They'll have to look at all the comments. This is a notice of proposed rulemaking, so they're intending to look at all the comments. They will then make a final decision. They'll publish something similar to the NPRM, but it'll be the final rule, and it'll explain what they did and the comments they addressed and the legal issues they resolved. And then they'll, they'll, they'll change regulations, and then usually they'll have an effective date in the future. And it may not end up affecting 503 for this year. I'd be surprised if it— I'd be very surprised if it was this year. It would probably be sometime next year. But, and of course, you know, and it's possible they could do more than they've said, too. So, you know, we, we should be careful here and talk and talk. And when we talk about— I can give you a number of different thoughts on it. I don't know how long you want to address it, but it is important. But I would say that, you know, whatever they do, you're going to have time to implement it. But the point is that most likely you're going to continue to have to have a written affirmative action program. As a business, and you're going to continue to have to do outreach and recruitment, which there's an argument that's required by the statute itself because it requires affirmative action for people with disabilities. So you're still going to have to act in this area. They can't stop that. I don't think they want to stop that. I think what they think they're doing is similar to what they said about the Department of Energy one under 504, that they're, they're making it easier for business. They're making it more flexible. They're removing— that they're being deregulatory. I think the problem why they got so many comments is businesses like certainty. They like to know exactly what they are supposed to do. That's a cost of doing business that they include in the cost. What they don't like is uncertainty, big general obligations that could be enforced ad hoc by this administration or a future one. That's what they don't like. They like specifics and they know what they can do. And in 503 right now, it's very clear how to comply. If you take that away, the self-ID and the 7% goal, it becomes harder to comply. It becomes more burdensome, I would argue.

Yeah, because you still have— you would still have 503. You would. You would still have that, and you still would As you said earlier, disability and veterans have been impacted the least. So, I mean, you could still move forward. I don't think you can say, oh, you know, this is gone, it doesn't matter, because it does matter and it will matter in the future, but it matters right now. So, you know, I'm very hopeful. And are you saying, Craig, you can make comments on this?

Yeah, until September 2nd, you could submit a comment. I'm working with a number of organizations on a comment, on different comments. And, um, you know, I'm, I've been very outspoken on the topic. I'm really hopeful they maintain the 503 regulations, and if they change them, that they only change them in ways where they're you know, let's say, for example, they don't want to do the 7% utilization goal because they view it as a quota, which it's not a quota. I would argue it's not a quota. But let's say they just— it's just something that they don't want. Well, then maybe replace it with a hiring benchmark, you know, similar to VEVRA. But the point is there need to be two things no matter what ends up happening here. One, they do need to keep self-identification at some stage. Because otherwise, how do you identify people with disabilities? And companies are gonna want a safe harbor, like having a form that OMB has approved that they know they can use and will be in compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act and other laws. That's very helpful for business. So keep the self-ID form. If you're not gonna let them do pre-employment inquiries, which they've indicated is intention with the ADA, I don't think it is, because it's separate from the hiring process. It's a government form, and it's, and it's collected for statistical purposes to see the effectiveness of your affirmative action program. But if you're not going to allow that, at least allow it post-employment and continue to have that and have a hiring benchmark attached to it so that there's some ability to measure the amount of people with disabilities in your workforce, measure how effective your outreach and recruitment is and measure your progress toward a goal. Like, those are very helpful for companies. I've worked in this field now for a long time, I would say, and I was one of the— if I may say, I think as in terms of all the OFCCP directors, I focused on 503 more than any of them. And I've given over 100 speeches, I'd say, on 503. I've gone to many like NILG meetings, Disability:IN meetings, conferences, all of those things. This is not a controversial subject. It's positive. It's very popular, 503. There's not— this is not a situation where companies are getting huge liability awards or things like that. It's all positive. Companies want to do this. They like doing outreach and recruitment to people with disabilities. They recognize the importance of it. They want to do it. So why? There's no reason to do this. Like, it doesn't help anyone and it hurts contractors, in my opinion. So there's no upside to this proposed regulation. And so I hope they just scrap it, to be honest with you. But if they don't scrap it, I hope that they at least do something meaningful to continue 503 being effective.

Jennifer, did you have any comment about this?

I completely agree with Craig. I think that the benchmark was a useful thing for everybody. It was a win-win. It was helpful to contractors to have something to measure against, to have a yardstick, because it's very difficult to know whether you're complying with a broad obligation that doesn't have any specific benchmarks. And OFCCP has been crystal clear for many years. This is not a quota. It is not a violation of the law if you simply just don't meet the 7% utilization goal. That by itself is not a violation. And they have been very, very clear that it is aspirational, but it is the benchmark that gives meaning to an analysis that lets contractors know sort of how they're doing and by which they can measure and say, okay, we haven't met 7%, so here are some of the barriers that we are facing and here's what we plan to do to address it. But you can't do that kind of analysis if you don't have any kind of benchmark. So, um, I completely agree it was helpful for people with disabilities. It made a difference. It increased employment of people with disabilities among the contractor workforce, and it was helpful to contractors.

Yes, I agree with you and Craig completely. And you know, when I go to a company and they say, "Oh, Joyce Bender, we're so glad you're here. We want to start hiring people with disabilities. I say, oh, but you already have. They're working here right now. They have bipolar disorder, depression, PTSD, epilepsy, you know, MS. I go through this big list, and why I'm bringing that up is those are fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, uh, and, and they care. They care. They may not be out of fear, they may not be, you know, disclosing, but they are going to want to hire people with disabilities, and I really do believe that. So, Jennifer, should people send in comments then?

Absolutely. To the 503 rule, I think the deadline is September 2nd. You can find it— actually, I find it by Googling Section 503 proposed rule. But you can go to regulations.gov. I think it's easier to just Google it and it will take you there.

I think that Google method's easier, Jennifer. I agree. I agree. Yeah. Well, Jennifer, thank you so much. Can't wait to talk to you next week. Yes. Thank you. All right. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye. I feel like I have like a— so, oh, you're still on. I'm still on. Yeah, you're still on. We're not done with you, Jennifer.

I waved a little bit.

Yeah, I know.

Oh, you know, I, I, Jennifer and I talk fairly frequently now.

Well, you know what, I'm like feeling like I did a coup having her as my new newscaster. She is people in the country just like yourself. Well, she is so, so smart.

It really is true.

That's great that you have her. Well, thank you for that. So, Craig, look at you. You're bright, you're successful, you're talented. You've been in all these high-level positions. Something had to impact you or someone. So who, who is your role model?

Who would you say? Well, that's quite a question. Well, my daughter, you know, my daughter and I are very close and And, you know, she's changed my life. And I love being with her and doing things with her and helping her see the world and learn a little bit and advance and at her own pace, you know. But I enjoy that. That to me is wonderful. She likes to wake up in the middle of the night, late still, and sometimes she'll come in and get me and we'll watch a movie. She loves watching movies. And I'm always happy to see her, you know, like, she— we won an award together from Melwood, the Teamwork Award. I was very proud of that. And she and I went together and did that and received the award. And it was at the National Press Club. We saw Steny Hoyer, a congressman, and he congratulated her. And my wife came and my son and You know, we're, we're just, you know, we have a tight-knit family. We, we all are supporting Alex, and she is very loved and welcomed within our family. So that's one big one, obviously, for me. And then, you know, more generally, like, in terms of being a civil rights advocate and, you know, wanting to be involved in the government and things like that, and, you know, it's one that people often say, but I'll give you, uh, you know, I, I'm a student of the presidency. I even have a— you probably see this sometimes when I post, but at Coral Gables they created for me a Craigie Lean Presidential Library because I know how much I love the presidency. And I have all these portraits of presidents. It's still there, in addition to my portrait and the portrait of the city attorneys and the different, uh, biographies of presidents. I have a lot of biographies here. And, and, you know, 3 presidents I always look at in this area, in the civil rights area Um, one of course is Abraham Lincoln, which I think many people, that's— he's their favorite president. But you know, what he did was such— so landmark, um, in the area of civil rights. And so he's a big one for me. You know, I always liked Chester Arthur because people— a lot of people never heard of him. And I always thought, hey, he's a president that people haven't heard of. But I like him because he, um, he came up through the spoils system. During the Gilded Age, and a lot of people didn't expect him to do much, but then he, he did the Pendleton Act, and he totally changed when he became president. And he had also been a civil rights lawyer. So, so I like that. And then Teddy Roosevelt. I've always loved Teddy Roosevelt. So these are, those are people I look up to. But I'd say the biggest one is, is my daughter. Um, and then of course, you know, you know, my mom and dad and my wife have had huge impacts. In my life and my son. I've been very fortunate in that regard to have a family who's always been supportive of disability, supportive of my daughter, who's, as you can see, is a huge part of my life. And we've all been involved through Alex in disability. And so it's a real family focus. So my family to me is what's really driven me in that regard.

Well, I You know what, what a wonderful father you are. I want, I want to say though to all of my listeners, no matter where you are, um, you're hearing someone passionate about supporting people with disabilities. And you know, I say this all the time, very few people, and you all know that in 22 years it's been less than 5 people I have endorsed, and you are going to be one of them, Greg. And I say that because you have courage, you care, you have goodness, you know. And I'm saying this to everyone so you know to follow him. Listeners, you know how I am. Follow him. Follow Craig. Craig, how can they follow you? Where should they go?

Well, go on LinkedIn and follow me. I post a lot in the disability area, so that'd be— that's probably the best area to go. Facebook as well, or Instagram, you know, so I'm involved there. You can come to my firm and look me up at my firm. I also teach at George Washington Law School. I teach disability rights law. Take a look there. Um, and, uh, that's probably the easiest way. You know, Joyce, I want to say one other thing. You know, I should have mentioned also, over the last couple years, so my firm has been involved with Disability:IN, the Disability, um, Index, and we've been listed as one of the best places to work for people with disabilities. So every year I've been doing this, um, something similar to this, like a sit-down with different disability leaders. I got to do one with Tony Coelho and I've done one with Steve Bartlett in another context. And my firm, one of the partners at my firm is Dick Thornburg, uh, who was the AG during the ADA. So who I like to mention because he was at my firm and was such a big part of that. But, you know, seeing Tony and who I, I know Tony very well and I know Steve and seeing them talk about each other and the camaraderie between Republicans and Democrats in the disability rights movement and how this is really something bipartisan that people care deeply about and how President Bush, George H.W. Bush, said famously that the most important thing that he did when he was president in terms of legislation was the ADA. And he's absolutely right. It's such a huge landmark law. And the fact that you have Republican presidents and Democratic majorities in Congress basically passing and signing every major disability rights law shows the bipartisanship, and we should never forget that. Republicans and Democrats need to work together with independents to support disability rights. This is something that's in common to all of us. It's part of the human condition. It's something that's positive, the identity of having a disability, and we need to accommodate and support. So thank you for letting me say that, but that's something that really struck me talking to Tony and to Steve and how much they love each other. You know, they care about each other and they're so grateful for that opportunity to have done the ADA. And we need the next—

Yeah, I so agree with you. I do. All right, before we end the show, we end the show with a quote. And I have to thank you, Craig, once again for being with us. Hey everyone, you know, you go to Spotify, Amazon, tell your friends, tell everyone, because they can hear Craig on there because it will be listed. But I end every show with a quote. So here it is. If I have to feel thankful about an accessible bathroom, When am I ever going to be equal in the community, said the great Judy Heumann. And in the words of Mary Brooker, when you go out today, remember, choose joy. Talk to you all next week.

Voice America would like to thank you for tuning in. Please join us next Tuesday at 11 AM Pacific Pacific Time and 2 PM Eastern Time for another installment of Disability Matters right here on the Voice America Variety Channel. We are the leader in live internet talk radio. VoiceAmerica.com.