Harvey Davis discusses his experience and perspectives on hiring and working with people with disabilities over his 40 year career.

Welcome to Disability Matters with your host Joyce Bender. All comments, views, and opinions expressed on the show are solely those of the host, guest, and callers. Now the host of Disability Matters, here's Joyce Bender.

Hello everyone, how are my favorite listeners across the country? And around the world, which I'll talk about in a minute. But I want to tell you, I would like the listeners to send in an email to jbender@benderconsult.com and tell me why you think you should be on the radio show. jbender@benderconsult.com. And then I'm going to put all those names in a basket, so to speak, and pull out someone that's going to be on my radio show. Think about this. You're going to be on with 153 countries around the world listening to the show. And by the way, I've I've got news for you. I have someone very prominent, well-known, located in the UK who is going to work with all these countries to make sure you can all hear the show. Is that not awesome? I mean, isn't that awesome? I am so excited about that. So, um, I want to say I am thrilled. I am thrilled to have so many countries. I'll tell you, Germany, Singapore was still in second place. Okay, great, great listeners. But all of you are great listeners. All of you, even the one person, you're all great listeners, no matter what company, country you're in throughout Africa. You're all great listeners, China and Russia included. So here we go. Harvey is back with us. We have Harvey Davis with us, and I'm going to talk about him in a minute. But first, I want to say, so a shout out to all of you countries with listeners and a special shout out to Yoshiko Dart. And who I love very much. Thank you, Highmark, for being the long-term lead sponsor of this 22-year-old radio show. I can't thank you enough. All of you, I can't thank you enough. So I was so excited about today because, as you know, I live with epilepsy. I'm the CEO and founder of Bender Consulting Services, a company that focuses on the competitive employment of people with disabilities and chair of the Bender Leadership Academy. So I'm all about employment, all about finding employment for people with disabilities, which have found thousands of jobs for people with disabilities. And guess what? One of the reasons for that is my guest on the show today, who I think— I love him. And I have an announcement to make. Harvey Davis will be the 2027 Tony Coelho Award recipient. Such a prestigious national award. And I'm going to tell you why as we go on. But this year, it is Senator Markey. I'm so excited about Senator Markey. He is such a good man and such— so committed. He and Tony Coelho, friends. He'll be so excited to see Tony because he was very familiar with Tony when the Americans with Disabilities Employment Act was signed. But today we have with us the powerful national disability rights leader and soon-to-be Tony Coelho Award winner, which he already is, but soon to receive it next year, Harvey Davis, Director of Strategic Development Service and Critical Support for MC Dean. And Harvey, you are one of my favorite people, you know that. So I am so excited to have you on the show today. You have like an incredible background in the defense industry and intelligence agency, which we're going to talk about. But let's talk about your journey because people around the world, in the United States, they don't just want to hear you on the show, they want to know about you. So Harvey, let's hear where you grew up and went to school and your journey that got you to the NSA. So let's hear your background.

Sure, Joyce Bender. It's exciting to be here.

No, it's exciting.

Can you hear me? Can you hear me well?

I hear you.

Perfect, perfect. So sometimes you never know exactly where you're going to end up when you start, okay? And I actually grew up in New York, okay? And went to school in New York, and one of my first adventures was, uh, I went to, uh, uh, Miami, which is a lot, a lot different than New York City in terms of where I was. And I was studying animal science, okay, always looking, uh, and always wanted to be a veterinarian when I was younger and work with animals and all that. And it's interesting, I'll talk a little bit later, uh, We, my wife and I, now run a sanctuary down in Florida where we actually do save animals, but made a full circle there. But I went into business. Okay, I went into business. I was in business in Manhattan. I worked for a while there and did apply for the federal government. Okay, down in DC through some contacts that I knew. And that job came through and I said, well, I never worked for the government, never considered working for the government, okay, but it looked like it would be a good start, okay. And so we went, we packed up and we moved down to outside Baltimore, Fort Meade, to work where we were. I was One of the first business people— and my background was business and sales, okay? NSA, as you know, is a highly technical agency with a lot of technical people, and business and contracts and things like that were not anybody's great desire to do. So they hired somebody from the outside. I worked there about the first third of my career. I was on the business side. Then I decided— actually didn't decide it, the director asked me to go over and take HR and recruitment. I ran that for about a third, and the last 12 years of my career at the agency was running our logistics and facilities. I had various experiences and I'm When we retired, we moved down to Florida, and I work mainly remote today. So that's the short story of me.

So you are in Florida now?

Correct.

Wow. What? You've gone from New York to Fort Meade, Maryland, to here you are, and now you get to work remotely. And I'm going to skip ahead and tell my story. About Harvey. So I'm at work and my executive assistant Carol comes in and she says to me, Joyce, the NSA is on the phone. They want to talk to you. And I said, what? Oh my God, the NSA! I'm thinking, what did we do wrong? It's the NSA. And you all know Harvey and one of his staff drove or flew, however they got here, to Pittsburgh to meet with me to tell me they want to hire people with disabilities. Is that not amazing? That they came to me. That says so much about Harvey, and we will talk about that in a little bit. But Harvey, you obviously didn't know that you always wanted to work for the government and that you would end up doing what you're doing, correct?

Not a clue.

Not a clue. Not a clue. And then you went to the NSA for, I think, was it 31 years? Is that right?

Okay. Almost 32, yes.

All right. Just in case you don't know, which I'm going to be shocked if you don't know, what the NSA is, but now you may not know. So, Harvey, tell everyone, what is the NSA? What do they do?

NSA is the part of the intelligence community that focuses on foreign communications, okay, as well as protecting United States communications. And that's about all I'm going to say.

Well, I know that because when I would find employment for someone to work at the NSA, and I'd say, where do you work? They'd say, defense. They wouldn't say they work for the NSA. They'd say, defense. I work in the defense industry. And I could tell, wow, he is real. They are really trained well. At the NSA. So if you're listening, keep in mind, intelligence security, think of like the CIA, just in case you don't understand what I mean. It is high-level security. Like when I went there, I thought I was, you know, okay, you have to go through, of course, you know, security, you have to be checked, scanned, all of that. And I, so here's my purse, here's my phone, here's everything. I walk through, ah, come back. Can you believe the Bluetooth in my hearing aid? I had to go back and leave that. I mean, well, of course I knew, no, no watch, no Apple Watch, because they have to know you're not trying to like record something, take photographs of something, and you know what, It was such an honor to be there. It really was. Because I'm thinking, Americans with disabilities protecting our country. How awesome to be able to say that! You know, when people with disabilities can't even find jobs. And Harvey, I'll bet you noticed that, but can you tell us sort of what your job was? At the NSA? Like, what you were— we'll say this— what were you over? What area did you work in? Or can you not tell that either?

Yeah, I think you're asking me what I did for the agency. Yeah. Yes. So mainly I was on the, on the business side. And when we started engaging with, with you, Joyce, on the facilities side, okay, we were designing buildings around the world, around the country. And specifically, we were looking for engineers, people who could understand buildings. And we were looking for talent, okay, that could help us design those critical buildings and systems that supported the agency. So we started our look in terms of engineering. Wow.

Oh, yes, you hired engineers, computer scientists, linguistics, you know, all these people. And as I said, what an honor. Every time I would recruit someone, that say to me, the NSA, what am I going to do at the NSA? But you know, people don't realize there are so many different jobs. You know, everyone thinks everyone is a spy, but no, they're not.

Interesting. And NSA is like any large fortune company, okay? And, uh, we used to say it's like a city, and every task and every job that needs to be done in the city, okay, uh, tied the mission focus that you have to do is done. It's a vast array of skills that are needed. As I look at other companies, I've been out in the private sector and all that, it's very similar, Joyce, in terms of the vast array of skills that are needed to run a company. All the way from the technical skills that are necessary to do a company's mission, as well as the support skills that are necessary to keep the infrastructure running, keep the processes, the businesses. Every, every piece is very important.

Every piece, it is every piece. Well, we're going to talk a lot more about this, but right now we have to go to break. If you joined us, we're talking to Harvey Davis, next year's Tony Coelho Award winner, Director of Strategic Development, Service, and Critical Support at MC Dean. Don't go away, we'll be right back with our—

At Highmark Health, we believe what makes us unique makes us better. Our differences broaden our perspectives and foster a variety of skills to complement each other. Creating a stronger and more vibrant workforce. It's this belief that earned us recognition as the Best Place to Work for the 10th year for individuals with disabilities in a survey by the American Association of People with Disabilities and Disability:IN. We'll continue to celebrate and benefit from the inclusion of all people. To find out more, visit highmarkhealth.org.

Since 1985, Bender Consulting Services has served as a national leader in advancing employment of people with disabilities including veterans with disabilities, with private sector companies and federal government agencies. Bender assists customers with achieving their diversity and workforce inclusion initiatives by tapping into a talent pool of individuals seeking professional positions, including those in the STEM fields. In addition, Bender services include disability employment consulting, training in technology accessibility through their HighTest line of service. For more For more information, please visit www.benderconsult.com.

Streaming live, the leader in internet talk radio, voiceamerica.com.

You're listening to Disability Matters. Now please welcome back the host of Disability Matters. Here's Joyce Bender.

Hey, welcome back everyone. If you just joined, we're talking to Harvey Davis, who is the Director of Strategic Development and Critical Support for MC Dean, this year's— no, next year's Tony Coelho Award winner. I just want to take a moment and tell you about, as you all know, most of you know, Tony was the author of the Americans with Disabilities Act, a whip in Congress, successful businessman. He's a political analyst with 5 of the presidents.

5.

So you could tell he started when he was young, but he's just so well known on both sides. Okay. He knew President Biden and Obama well. But he knew the Bush family well. That is this book, My Father, My President. Tony is the director of, I mean, the chairman of the Bender Advisory Board. Doro is on the board, Doro Bush. But why I mentioned that book, he's in that book. So that about when his, when Papa Bush, as Tony called him, is the person that signed the Americans with Disabilities Act. The whole family disability-oriented. And I think, too bad it's not like this now, but talk about bipartisan. Here he is, Democratic Whip in Congress. There he is in that book that President Bush's daughter and the sister of the most recent president, George Bush, George W. Bush, W known as W. There he is in the book. You know why? Because all parties realize that anyone can have a disability. Disability does not discriminate against anyone. And Harvey surely was open to this, I wanted to ask you two questions first that go together. Why did you just— what made you think about disability as that labor pool? What, you know, and why did that not bother you?

So Joyce, I come at it from a little different angle, okay, in terms of where we look at the At that time during the agency, and I think it's pretty much true today, the labor force is very, very tight, okay, especially for highly skilled positions, software folks, computer scientists, technical folks. And so the competition is very fierce. So why not look at places where people are not looking normally. Okay, and so we started to look around in terms of where we are, and we looked at the, uh, at the, uh, disability, uh, the disabled population, and saw quite a few degree people, smart people, not being employed. Okay, and we said, well, Why don't we go after them? Okay. In terms, terms of where we are, because it's a rich pool to look at. I want to— and disability, right? The first thought is what is the ability, okay, of that person and what can they bring to the job? And that population was a pool that we said we're going to go chase skill.

You have skill, not are they able-bodied or have a disability, just skill, talent.

Um, yep, skill first, okay, disability second.

Well, I want to, uh, and that's the way it should be, you know, my feeling, paychecks, not pity. People with disabilities have to be treated Equal. Do a good job, move up. Don't do a good job, you don't have a job. But that's the only way people with disabilities will be successful, if they are judged like everyone else. I forgot to mention, I was going to mention when we came back, if you're watching on YouTube and you're noticing it looks a little fuzzy behind Harvey and sometimes there's a little delay, Okay, he's in a thunderstorm, but that— I want to tell you what, he could be in a hurricane and he still would try to be on this show. That's just what Harvey Davis is like. So I just wanted you all to know, uh, but as I said, you know, he's not like, okay, I'm not gonna do it. He's gonna do it no matter what. So just so you know that. So Harvey People with disabilities, if they have a significant disability such as being blind or deaf or epilepsy, have like the highest unemployment of any group when it's significant. And yet it did not bother you. So the question I have is, why? Why did it not bother you? Joyce Bender, the first person he hired was a person living with quadriplegia.

Go ahead. Yeah, so it's the skill set that the people bring to the table. So interesting, let's talk about engineering for an example, okay? The engineers we brought on were all degreed, very, very well, did well in school, well, resumes. So we had, we hired probably initially a dozen or so people who were deaf. Okay. And, you know, 95% of the work that's being done in engineering is on the computer. Okay. You talk to people in email and text and all that. How would you even know anybody's deaf? Okay. And it's not relevant to the job. Okay. But what's interesting is, in terms of communications, my workforce came to me and actually asked for a class in ASL. Okay. American Sign Language. And we actually brought a teacher in and weekly, okay, my existing workforce, okay, was learning ASL. I actually attended with them, except I couldn't learn the language. It was too difficult for me. Okay. But anybody who can learn ASL is smart in my mind. Okay. And way beyond the— and so there's no diminished capability, okay, that I see there. Okay. You know, in terms of the paraplegics we had, so, so, you know, we have, we had to make some physical accommodations, okay, but that didn't affect at the end of the day the contribution that these people would make to the mission and the work that we had to do. So it's all about everything else becomes secondary when they're actually producing.

Yeah, well, thank you. Too bad we don't all think like that in America, right, Jennifer? Indeed. Yeah, yeah. It is time for our news break. Mathis on the mic with Jennifer Mathis. Welcome, Jennifer, and what news do you have for us today?

So I just wanted to highlight something that happened last week. This is not a anything that is sort of an action item or things that people need to necessarily do something about or contact somebody about, but just an FYI that the Secretary of Health and Human Services, HHS, last week on Monday, May 4th, held a, a really interesting summit, a mental health summit on overprescription of psychiatric medications. And this was a summit that it got a lot of press, and, um, I think it raised some very interesting issues for people to understand and think about. Um, it brought together, I would say, unusual bedfellows. I think it is fair to say that this administration's approach to mental health has been, I would say, often somewhat destructive or really dismissive of the concerns of people with psychiatric disabilities. We have seen some very, very wrong-headed policies suggesting that people with mental health disabilities should be institutionalized, that, um, you know, we should not have them in housing where they get housing first and can work on services at their own pace, um, things that have worked for decades. And so It was interesting to see this summit, which was really organized in connection, in conjunction with people with mental health disabilities, people who have expressed concerns about the overuse of psychiatric medication, overprescription of it, the ways that their concerns have been dismissed when they have talked about side effects, when they have talked about the medications not working for them or no longer continuing to work for them. The use of polypharmacy that, you know, when somebody is on a medication that stops working, that then there's another one added and another one added and another one added. And, you know, none are taken away. Um, the fact that when people, um, say they no longer want to be on a medication because of either the side effects or the fact that it's not working anymore, that there's a great, uh, reluctance among professionals to help people get off of the medication, that there's a general lack of knowledge and training on how to help people safely get off of the medications without extreme physical effects. And so it was very interesting to see this summit happen. And people came in and told their stories about what happened to them, some really heart-wrenching, harrowing stories about people's experiences that they have gone through. And it was accompanied, the summit, by some guidance that the Secretary issued that day. About overprescription and the need to be balanced in this area and to understand and respect the role that psychiatric medications play in helping many people, but at the same time, saying that the medications are not the only option. That, you know, there are other things that may work for some people and may work better than medications, and that people should be supported when they are trying to reduce or get off of a medication that is not working for them anymore. That, you know, this should be a process where there's an individualized and careful look at how the medications are working, that people should have full information upfront about, um, you know, what the side effects are and, um, what, um, may happen, um, if they do later try to get off of the medication. And so, um, I thought that it was an interesting summit. It worried some people in the mental health world. I think there was a concern that what might happen out of this is that people would get the wrong message and people would just feel like it wasn't safe to be on these medications and that they would all just get off. And I read through the guidance that was issued by HHS. You can find it if you just Google. I think the easiest way to do it is Googling HHS overprescription and you will pull it up. And it was issued jointly by CMS, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, SAMHSA, the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, HRSA, the Health Resources and Services Administration, and ACF, the Administration for Children and Families, all of them having some interest in some piece of this. And I thought that it was actually a balanced document, balanced guidance, and it is worth looking at. And I think it brings some attention to an important issue that I think has been often, too often dismissed. So it was interesting to see that from this current HHS. And I am encouraged that even though I would hope that it would not have the effect that some people are worried about, that it would just scare people into thinking that, you know, they should just all, you know, get off of medications even if they are working for them, or, you know, get that kind of message. But I thought it was an important awareness-raising event and guidance that—

Yeah, that's great. That is encouraging. That's encouraging. Well, uh, Jennifer, you'll have to keep us apprised of what happens with that. Um, and as I always say, I know it'll be hard to think of something to talk about, but we will look forward to seeing you next week.

Indeed. Thank you so much.

Take care. All right. Bye. Bye-bye. We are so honored to have Jennifer. She is one of the leading mental health experts in the United States. Anytime, whether it's this administration, any administration, if they need an expert to make a comment, they go to Jennifer Mathis, who is the Deputy Director at the Bazelon Center on Mental Health Law. I'm sure you've seen her. She's in the news. She's frequently quoted in New York Times and other magazines and articles. So that was encouraging news that she had. So, uh, always happy to have her on the show. So, um, Harvey, I wonder if you would mind sharing with our listeners some success stories that you remember with the people with disabilities that worked at the NSA.

One story that really sticks in my mind, okay, is we had something in Maryland called Snowmageddon, where we had snow that kept us closed for almost a week, okay, in terms of where we were. And we were busy determining which people should come to work, which people should not come to work, who was essential. And who wasn't. And if you recall, one of the folks that we hired actually moved down to Fort Meade area with his father. Okay. And his father did the commuting back and forth to get into the gatehouse to work. Okay. He was the first person to show up. Okay. When we had the emergency team together in that snow. Okay. And he was there every day during the snow. It just sticks in my mind, Joyce.

Yeah, people with disabilities, see, my answer to that is it isn't that people with disabilities are like a superhero. It's that people with disabilities have been left out. And no matter what group you are, if you've been left out and someone gives you a chance to work, oh Oh my God, that's a treasure.

One of the things that I've seen, Joyce Bender, in terms of this, and nothing pejorative about this, but once you give somebody from this community a job, they're like a dog with a bone. They don't let go, and they give it their all, and they are very, very thrilled to have this job. I had to tell people to go home. Okay, work time is done. Okay, you need to have a little balance on where you're at. The turnover rate, okay, is almost non-existent. Okay, in terms of someone who's locked into a job. Now, it may come from the fact that there aren't that many opportunities, but I got the impression they really enjoyed the job. We're very thankful for the opportunity to produce, and they produced. Yeah, it doesn't get much more complicated than that in my mind.

Yeah, no, but you are right. It is, uh, you know, our motto is competitive jobs mean freedom. And as I know all of you know, if you don't have employment, you can't live that American dream. You can't buy a house, You can't, you know, get a car. You cannot live the American dream. That's why when you get a chance to work, it's a treasure. I tell companies all the time when I go speak there, if they say to me, oh, Joyce Bender, we're, you know, so happy to see you and have you here because we want to start hiring people with disabilities. And I say, oh, But you already have. Yeah, they're working here right now. They have epilepsy, bipolar disorder, depression, uh, hearing loss, uh, arthritis, extremely high blood pressure. It's just they're not telling you, but they're here. They just don't want to tell you because they're afraid that you will treat them differently, and they don't want to lose that job under any circumstance. So yes, people with disabilities, again, no pity. I would never send someone for a job unless they were qualified to do the job. And by the way, to work for the NSA, you have to have a high grade point average, a pristine background, to put it mildly. Um, in the— whatever the skills are, They have to have that talent, those skills, the demeanor. They have to be someone you feel comfortable with that you could trust and someone that keeps communication silent. I mean, these people are like unbelievable people you have to find to work there. Oh, and if someone traveled extensively all around the world, that could be a flag. That could be be, you know, a problem. So to work for the NSA is, you know, it's like Good Housekeeping seal of approval. I mean, it just doesn't get better than working for them. And so that's why, why the heck would you not hire people with disabilities? That is the question of the day. You know, when I started my career, over 30 years ago, I said, okay, you know, someone said, how long do you think you'll be doing this? I said, well, obviously this is gonna, you know, everyone's gonna compete with me and all these people get hired. So I'll probably be in India or some other country, you know, finding employment for someone in another country. Well, I would never have believed that 30 years later, the unemployment for people with disabilities would still be 70% not counted in the workforce. That is absolutely shocking and shameful at the same time. But there is this stigma, and it's due to lack of knowledge. If I go to a company, once they hire one person, they hire a lot of people. But it's that one person getting them in the door. Do you know what I mean by that, Harvey?

Yes, absolutely. And one of the things, okay, that is really counterproductive, okay, and I know, Joyce, you're all about qualifications and pushing back back on this. If we put somebody in a position that's not called to the community than anything else. I recall an example, we had somebody that we hired of this community that was not performing, Joyce. Okay. And the question that came to me as the leader in the organization 'What do we do?' Okay, and my answer was, 'What would you do if that person was not in the disability community?' And they said, 'Well, we, we'd have to move them out of the job and all that.' So I don't understand the question. Okay, so that's the same activity that you would do. It's independent. Okay, and that's like I started the conversation, the disability is something secondary, right? The ability to perform on the job is primary, and if that person doesn't perform, that person needs to be moved out. Okay. Worst thing that can happen is to keep somebody that underperforms, right? You'll never get anybody hired with a disability again.

That would be, that would be a disaster. Anyone listening, you know what he's saying is the truth. Paychecks, not pity. You do that one time, that's it. They're not going to hire people. I mean, they— people at companies need to know if they don't do a good job, they don't have a job. And, you know, of course I want everyone to have a job, but only if they can do the job. Just what Harvey said. What would you do if it would be an able-bodied person. But that goes the other way too. If that able-bodied person, when they do a great job, they get a promotion, it has to be the same for the person with a disability if they too are doing that same job at a high level. Do you know what I mean? But yeah, you're— I agree with you. I agree with you, Barbie. So I wanted to ask you, what advice do you have for young people with disabilities that face obstacle after obstacle? What advice do you have for them if they're seeking employment?

So, and this is very similar to advice I give to anybody. Okay. Again, same advice, right? Whether you have a disability or not. Is find what you're good at and excel at it, right? And become the strongest you can. Education, very, very, very important, right? Okay. Go to school. Okay. Demonstrate what you can do, what you can perform, all that. Especially if you're going to school, the opportunities for internships, okay, are actually a lot, lot better, okay, than opportunities for a first-time job. Because when you look at the statistics, okay, if you've worked as an intern while you're in school, okay, the probability of you getting hired full-time is much greater, okay, in terms of as the company gets to know you and all that. So take advantage of any any work study, any internships, and look for areas where people are needed, okay, where there's a real shortage of skills, okay. There's a real shortage today from my perspective in the world that I look at, okay, with the growth of artificial intelligence and data centers and things like that. Okay, technicians. Okay, people that, that can actually do work. Okay, uh, people, uh, uh, today, today, uh, whether you're an electrician, okay, or HVAC repairman, or an electrical designer, or a designer of cooling systems, engineer, okay, uh, All these people are in tremendous, tremendous demand. Okay. So my advice is, is find what you're good at. Okay. What you like and excel at it. Okay. One of the things that I tell, I tell young people all the time, okay, is, and this is an exercise they hate when I make them do this. Okay. But sometimes it takes years. I tell them, you need to come up with one word, one word to describe yourself. So when somebody in a company thinks, okay, there's a problem, automatically their mind says, oh, Joyce is the one to connect with that. Okay. So if you're thinking electrical expert, okay, that's what you are. You need to be the quintessential electrical expert. It took me many years to find my word. Okay. My word is problem solver. Okay. And every job I went to, okay, it was a problem and that's why they put me there. Okay. In terms of where I was. Okay. So I force everybody to find the one word, okay, that describes them. When someone in business or government has a problem, they think of them immediately. That's my shorthand.

I'm gonna do that with the Bender Leadership Academy. That is great. Well, before we end the show today, Harvey, my last question is, who is your role model?

That's a very interesting question, okay? And I actually think everybody is my role model. Because I have never met somebody that I haven't learned something from. The worst, the worst leaders and employers that I was with, I learned what not to do. The best people I've been, I've learned what ought to do. And so, I guess my role models is a combination of everybody I encountered during my life. And I have good and bad pieces because nobody's all good and nobody's all bad. You put— you take the best out of everybody and that's what you want to be.

Yeah, isn't that— that is so true. Well, that's a good way to think, Harvey. I want to say again, Harvey Davis is the 2027 Tony Aquello Award winner and look for us to be sending out information about that for you. And thank you so much, Harvey, for being with us today.

My pleasure.

I always end the show with a quote, so this had to be the quote. I use this quote frequently, and that is when the late Governor Dick Thornburgh, who was a major disability rights supporter, and I knew him well, His son had a disability. But what a great governor. But when he spoke at New York Law School, he said, "You know what? There's a company I really love in the state I was the governor of, Pennsylvania." And keep in mind, he was the Attorney General for President Bush when the ADA was signed. So he said, This company I love in Pennsylvania, they work for the NSA. They send 200 people a year. They've had a 10-year contract. Here's my question: if they can place people with the NSA, what's your excuse for not hiring people? Oh, I say that all the time. You know, I do. I love that quote so much. And In the words of Mary Brooker, when you get up tomorrow, remember, choose joy. You won't be disappointed.

Voice America would like to thank you for tuning in. Please join us next Tuesday at 11:00 AM Pacific time and 2:00 PM Eastern time for another installment of Disability Matters right here on the Voice America Voice America Variety Channel. We are the leader in live internet talk radio. VoiceAmerica.com.