Highmark Health - Workforce Includes People with Disabilities

Welcome to Disability Matters with your host Joyce Bender. All comments, views, and opinions expressed on the show are solely those of the host, guest, and callers. Now the host of Disability Matters, here's Joyce Bender.

Hi everyone, hope you're having a great day. To everyone in the United States and around the world, I really appreciate the number of listeners around the world. From China to the UK, 17 different countries with listeners. Thank you so much. I noticed Tunisia and Japan have jumped on, two of my favorite places as far as friends are concerned. And with that, a special shout-out to my very dear friend, Richard Roberts in Okinawa. Thank you, Richard, for your support and friendship and dedication to people with disabilities living in Japan. Gangyang, same thing with you. Gangyang Cho in South Korea, another great friend of mine. Both of these people are with the State Department and just fight the fight for people with disabilities. And my new friend Cheryl Harris with the State Department. In Tunisia. And certainly, last but not least, we have to talk about Venyumin in Kazakhstan. These are all disability advocates with the State Department and great friends. Uh, you know, if you're in another country, remember, one person can make a difference. Spread the news. I could tell you're doing that in China, so keep sharing this news with everyone. Hey, Yoshiko! Special shout out to Yoshiko Dart. You know, I say this every show, so if you're wondering, why do you do that? Well, first of all, I love her, but her husband, the late, great Justin Dart, is a hero to us with disabilities in history, disability history. He passed away several years ago, but I am determined to make sure we remember how important our disability history is. And thank you, Highmark, for being an ongoing lead sponsor of this show. And Morgan O'Brien, oh my God, this man, CEO of Peoples, and now he's working in so many areas, new chairman of Robert Morris University. He himself is a sponsor of this show. That's how awesome he is. So I talked about Highmark. I love Highmark. And here we are today with one of my friends from Highmark who I just think so highly of. I'm so blessed I met Josh Verdi. He is an enterprise labor and employment counsel for for Highmark Health, and he's on the board of directors of Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law, and really is just getting going as an advocate in that area. So, Josh, welcome to the show.

Hey, thank you, Joyce. It's good to hear your voice.

So, Josh, for, you know, we have listeners around the world and of course the United States, so they know a little bit about you. How about if we start by sharing a little about your background and what led you to law school?

Oh, sure. So Joyce, I grew up in New Castle, Pennsylvania, about an hour north of Pittsburgh and right on the Ohio border. So Youngstown, Ohio was kind of the city that I looked to when I was growing up. And, you know, it had that, it had that old steel mill, blue-collar feel, you know, everybody's, you You know, parents did the same thing and kind of made the same money. And it was a really neat place growing up. You know, people talked about the better days that were behind and that, you know, you really had to apply yourself to, you know, kind of change with the way the world was changing. So there is a lot of encouragement and a lot of people, you know, trying to get you to see new ways for maybe what they have seen and to try new things. To bust out in another, you know, a number of ways, academics or sports or the arts, and a really fascinating place to grow up. I know that it's seen better days, but I always look fondly on my upbringing. In terms of law school, I think that I'll give my age away with this, but it kind of, you know, I wanted to be a lawyer because of Michael J. Fox, or specifically Alex P. Keaton from Family Ties, that, that, that, you know, buttoned-up, sophisticated person who kind of could talk as their main, their main skill. I have always wanted to talk to a living. The two things that I am passionate about were, you know, kind of making my voice heard where, you others did not want to necessarily to do that. And to, you know, to just be able to do different things and have an interesting go and learn a lot and have an effect on the world. So, you know, I had a lot of flirtations with psychology and psychiatry in undergraduate, but I it was always law school. It was always going to be law school. So, to me, that gave, that gives someone the most opportunity to do a whole bunch of diverse things in their life, and it's certainly done that for me.

That's all. And where did you go to law school?

I went to the University of Pittsburgh.

Such a great place. As my listeners know, I live in the best city in America, which is of course Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Now, Josh, did you get a Newcastle?

There is no doubt about it, it cannot be said enough.

That is right. Did you get a Newcastle High School or Neshanik?

I, I went to Newcastle. Um, you know, the Neshanik were our rivals. That was the, the, the rich part of Newcastle, so you always had that that version of turf war, but it was nothing but a friendly rival. And, you know, from there I went to, I went to Duquesne University and I got a bachelor's in psychology there. I had some athletic eligibility, so I stayed and I got a master's there. And then I, I, well, I should say I did all of that before I turned 19 years old. So I was kind of like spinning as to what I should do. So I actually took a year off. I taught, I taught preschool in Newcastle, and then I started selling cell phones when no one had a cell phone. And just doing that for a year, I was able to pay for law school in cash.

Wow, that's amazing.

You're a good seller. Think about it, it was around 1994. Um, it, it wasn't that hard because we went from a society that had no phones to everybody having phones in short order. And they paid us a lot of money to, uh, to, to sell them. It, it really was the easiest gig that I could have possibly had.

Amazing. Well, you know, uh, I grew up in New Galilee, but then I went to— after I got married, I, I moved to that great metropolis of Newcastle. Yes.

And that Newcastle, by the way— we can get into it, but we certainly are kindred.

Yes. And if you don't know this, that's the hot dog capital of the United States and the most Italians you will meet in Newcastle. And I too have great memories of Newcastle before I moved to the greatest city in America. So everyone, Um, let's talk about my favorite company. I know, you know, I talk about Highmark all the time, and the very first show of the year, the kickoff, was with David Holmberg. And we have leaders on. I think in May, Karen Hanlon will be on, and we've had Cindy Hundorfeen on. Uh, I love this company because they don't they don't just talk about it, they really do hire people with disabilities. So Josh, what attracted you to Heimwork? You were with a law firm. What attracted you?

When I got out of law school, I was with Reed Smith in Pittsburgh, which was just a dream for me, and it was a wonderful experience. And for reasons we'll get into as the show progresses, I spent 16 years there and decided that I was going to do what so many lawyers do, which is go in-house to a company. And, you know, for any lawyers who may be out there, you really have— if you're in a large firm, you have like one awesome opportunity to jump from your firm to a company and, and hopefully build a great career there. So I started to think about that, and, and when I started thinking it really was a no-brainer. Like, you want to work not only somewhere that will value your talents, but makes a difference in the world. And, you know, Highmark is so important to the citizens of Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Delaware, and now upstate New York. Like, I knew I could practice my trade there and that Highmark would also give me opportunities to fly in a whole bunch of different directions and allow me to pursue pursuits that were personal to me because of the opportunities that it has, because of the status of the community, because of the people there who are so connected in so many different ways. I have now been there about 7.5 years, and all of that is true. I have, I have gotten to serve boards in the arts, in athletics, and with the Bazelon Center, which is really, to me, a career milestone. So in addition, you know, I, as an employment lawyer, I get to— if Highmark is taking care of all of the individuals in our footprint, I get to take care of their employees, which is just a really great way of, of saying it. I get to make sure that they're they're treated the way they should be, that everyone is treated, you know, fairly, that we defend ourselves, you know, against the world when we need to. It really is a full legal experience at a wonderful company. So the decision to jump from Reed Smith to Highmark has paid off for me in droves.

Yes, that's wonderful. And I just want to say again, for those of you listening to the show, Highmark really does set the high mark for other companies to follow when it comes to hiring people with disabilities and providing quality of life. I mean, you know, Highmark has stood by my side for 26 years, every CEO. So that is why I have so many people and they'll say, "Ah, this is so wonderful what you're doing." And I'll say, "Really? Hire someone." Because that is where the rubber meets the road. When you hire a person with a disability? So, Josh, would you like to—

Yeah, I mean, the number one thing is to live it. And that's what we can get into about how Highmark lives as a champion for disabilities and has for all this time.

Mm-hmm, yeah. They stood behind me to get started. In 1995. I asked the CEO at that time, it was Bill Lowry, who passed away a few years ago. I was so upset. I'll never forget this man. I always say about him, one man, one decision. You know, I said, Bill, I have this dream. I want to start this company to employ people with disabilities, but I need someone that would stand behind me. Would you agree to bring on contract 6 people with disabilities in your IT area and keep them on contract for 3 years? Now, let me tell you, this was only 5 years after the ADA was signed into law. And only a couple years before it was implemented. It took Highmark only one— One day to say yes, one day, that's all, one day.

That's amazing. I mean, I can tell you Highmark lives its ambitions and its priorities. Now, not every company knows how to do this. And at some point, Highmark didn't know how to do it. So you find the people who do. Through key partnerships and the simple will to do so, Highmark has sought to create a dynamic inclusive culture. And we've been recognized in our work for disabilities, work with people with disabilities, with veterans, within the LGBT community. In the area of disability, we sought to exceed expectations for hiring, as you know, and to provide a remarkable experience for our disabled employees. A lot of this credit, as you mentioned, goes to our CEO, David Holmberg. If you get to listen to him speak, or if you've heard him on this podcast, he's a wonderful inspirational leader and does not hesitate to do the right thing when called upon. He has certainly set the pace for the corporate hiring of individuals with disabilities. So we are, we are, you know, lucky to have him. Plus, our business objectives just align with inclusion. We aim to be the premier healthcare choice for everybody. That leads us to embrace everybody, including those with disabilities.

Yeah, and I want to add to that, the people we're talking about are in information technology, procurement, business analyst, finance. In other words, all competitive areas, all competitive areas. And many of these people have moved up, you know, into a managerial role. And once again, not only hiring people with disabilities, but giving career opportunities to people with disabilities. And as Josh said, I would suggest you go back to that first show in January and listen to David Holmberg, the CEO, uh, talk about his commitment, and you will see what Josh and I mean when we say that. So Josh, I want to talk about a subject that's important to both of us. We're both on the board of Bazelon, and that is your own experience with mental health disability and also why you did not disclose that for years.

Yeah, no, I always like to say, here's my resume, and if you have, if you want to have a drink and have 5 hours, I could put the reality into it. Because it is, you know, it is, you are looking back on it, it is a hell of a ride. You know, just growing up, I mean, I had a wonderful childhood, but there would be just times when I would be scared to death for no reason, and I could not explain it. And, you know, I would even get to the point where I would talk to my parents about it, and they could not explain it, or they, you know, they were good parents. They would say it would pass. And, you know, it would just happen. And I would have, you know, as a teenager, some bouts of depression. And, again, like, I would start to get afraid that it would never go away. And then it would go away. And, you know, and to some people, if you meet me, I probably, I talk too fast. I smile way more than other people seem to do. And people have always noticed this. So, you know, I probably draw somewhat more attention than, than, than others would. Well, it all came to a head, you know, strangely, at a time which would have been my senior year in high school when, you know, I had absolutely everything going for me. I was first in my class in high school. I was involved in the arts. I was being scouted by several colleges for, for athletics. I had a cool group of friends, you know, a really neat girlfriend. So I was kind of doing that for the, the first time. And then I could not, I mean, I have no way to describe it other than I could not move. I, I was, I just became afraid that I was going to just be dead. And I did not know why. And I stopped sleeping. And I stopped eating, and I tried to ignore it because I thought it would go away. I said it always had gone away, but it did not seem like it was going away. To the point where after a while, I tried to tell my parents about it, and they were, they were like, oh, you know, you think too much, or do not worry about it. You just have a lot going on, like your future is in front of you, and it is, it is scaring you. It is normal. And I am like, I, I am really, you know, I have been preparing my entire life for that stuff. This, this is it. That. And, you know, it was the '80s or the early '90s, and you just did not go see people. I do not think I ever thought about seeing anybody. I just thought the boldest thing that I could do was, like, tell my parents. And then, you know, Couple months later, it was a really bad time. Again, it just like went away overnight. And, and, and, you know, I changed everything about myself. Like I, I didn't, the schools that I went to look, look at, I didn't apply to, you know, Cornell was my number one choice. I got a scholarship to go there. I didn't even entertain going there. I ended up going to a school, which I love, Duquesne University. For the reason that it was an hour from my house. And then if I needed someone to come get me at 2 in the morning, someone could come get me. And I never came home and I did great, but the fear of it kind of dominated the next part of my life. Like I said, I didn't understand it. I completely understand what it means to be bipolar now, but it just seemed like, you know, in your, 20s, you do the Jack Kerouac thing, and you, if you get sad, you get in a car and you go drive somewhere, or, you know, you, you disappear for a little bit, or you just keep moving and you throw yourself into everything. And then I, I kind of started to learn that no one else does that. No one else I know does, you know, is doing this. Like, people think that they're not, their mind's not like cranking 24/7. And I started to figure out there was a hell of a lot more going on. So, you know, I figured out I was bipolar and I actually didn't get treatment, you know, I didn't get treatment until I was 30 at another like amazing point in my life on the eve of my wedding and great things happening for me at work, the exact same thing happened. I was so happy and then I just fell. And then I found a very skilled therapist who put me on the right path. And, you know, I am like so many other Americans. I take about 7 mental health drugs a day to have a remarkable life. There is so much. I mean, I could just, like, every bit of the story, like, it freaks me out. It was really something to behold. Like, I, like, I, I would spend time, like I could not sleep. I could not eat. And I would just read. Or I would, I tried a case while I was at Reed Smith, a jury trial. And I won. And I was so excited. And I, it sent me into a spiral for 3 weeks. Like I remember walking after it was done on Grant Street in my suit. And someone came up to me and said, you know, quote, "I want whatever you are on." Well, he did not want what I was on after I spent the next 3 weeks like walking the streets of my neighborhood, taking a shower at 5 in the morning, and then driving back down Pittsburgh to go to work until I just fell apart. And that would happen from time to time. So I would not wish it on anybody, but It's kind of who I am, and it's done a lot of good things for me as well.

I'm sorry, I'll let you talk. No, that is a great— no, that's a great story. That really is a great story. And you did not talk about this for a long time. You did not disclose this. Why is that?

Well, one, I never admitted to myself that there is anything wrong with me. I just thought I was like passionate Italian eccentric, like, you know, people from Newcastle. I just would not at first acknowledge that there was something really wrong with me. So when I was in my early 20s, I, I just led my life. In a very interesting way. And then when I needed help, you know, I was kind of told by a lot of people, you know, the ADA doesn't apply to some bank hiring you in a law firm. If they find out you're bipolar, they're going to drop you. I believed that at the time.

Oh my gosh.

I absolutely believed that. I believe that if someone, you know, if I was an actor and I was going out for a role against someone else and the only thing that distinguished us was the fact that I was bipolar, I would not be chosen. And I could not get that out of my head. So I told nobody. And I do mean nobody. I mean, I told my parents when I started to get treatment. They have no idea what my life was like. There are people that I have dated that have no idea what my life was like. Like. There's no idea. It wasn't, it wasn't until I tried to be a big firm lawyer, a husband, and a father that I realized that everything had to change. And that's what kind of led me to treatment, to doing things that bipolar people without the social rhythm method. I, you know, I get up at the same time, I go to bed at the same time, I eat my first bite of food at the same time every day. But, you know, I've kind of made my world shrink to have a world that makes more sense for me. And I'm so grateful for it. I'm just so grateful for it. And, you know, it took me a long time to have the confidence in myself to know that it doesn't matter whether I have this or not. Like, I am going to get another job. I am wanted. I am talented. Like, it doesn't matter whether I have this or not or whether people know it or not. So it was a confidence exercise that made me not talk to people. I really did believe that the stigma was devastating. And that people would help me if they knew.

But then you did tell, you did disclose.

But it was a very long process. So one, you know, I encourage every married couple to have a meeting at some point in their lives, uh, in terms of like, what are you going to do for your career what should we be doing as a family? What makes sense for both of us? And my wife is a wonderfully talented woman. She teaches English and African American literature at the Pittsburgh Public Schools. And we decided that I was going to leave Reed Smith and go to Highmark. She was going to take on more responsibilities at work and have her opportunity to be awesome. Because, you know, why should I be the one flying all over the world getting to do amazing things? So we had that meeting, and part of that meeting was, you know, I don't want to not tell people or hide this anymore. In fact, I want to be an advocate about it. I want to take some part in reducing the stigma that the next generation will feel. I mean, you know, there's a lot of things we could talk about here, but you see all these ads on TV for this antidepressant or this medication. We know everyone's taking them, so why do all the people who take them feel so bad about themselves?

I just love you, Josh. I am so proud of you. When I met Josh a couple years ago, he wasn't telling anyone. He was not telling anyone because of what he said, you know, of his career. He goes from that to I'm speaking with him at some event and all of a sudden he tells everyone there. That he's living with bipolar disorder. And wow, look where you're at now, Josh. You're telling the world.

Yeah, so, you know, everyone needs a plan as to how they're going to come out. So this was my plan. I was going to find the woman who's done all the groundwork and was like the absolute leader in this area. So Joyce would show up at Highmark, you know, to speak every once in a while. And I think it took me 3 times slipping her my card before she called me and invited me to breakfast. And that is one of the best things that ever happened to me as far as this part of my life. Because you, like, you really need help navigating. I could talk in front of everybody. I have been doing it all my life. Like, if I am going to do this, if I am going to make an impact, you know, I need a guide, and there is no better guide than Joyce Bender.

Now you are— the feeling I have for you is only admiration and love, Josh. And I hope if you're a young person or anyone listening to this show right now and you are dealing with mental health disabilities and you are trying to deal with this on your own, don't do it. And don't be ashamed. Josh, Josh, he's very successful.

Please don't do it on your own. The statistics for someone living with bipolar disorder trying to navigate their 20s like I did, I mean, it's terrible. I mean, you could just listen to music or the arts to find all kinds of people who did not get out the way that I did. Please don't, please don't do it. You know, I had, when I spoke at this event for Joyce Bender, after I was done, like I had like 4 people come up to me. And there was one guy, he was 28. He is like, he just gave me a big hug. He is like, "I lost my marriage." He is like, "I lost my career as a lawyer, but I am 29 years old now and I have a start. And I am very thankful that you said what you said." Because it, seeing, seeing someone who survived it or is doing well with it is the most important thing, I think, for disabled people. Like, you really do need to see someone succeeding to give you the courage to keep going.

That's right. One person, one decision that Josh Bender made could impact so many lives, especially right now since they're hearing you everywhere. And with that, hey, it's time for our news break. You know, on the half hour we have a news break with Perry Jude Radesik, uh, giving our news report called Advocacy Matters. Perry, are you with us?

Joyce, I am, and thanks for having Josh on, and thanks for always having Advocacy Matters on. Absolutely. So Joyce Bender, today I want to talk about how individuals with disabilities who normally don't file taxes really need to go and file their taxes before the deadline, and that deadline is coming up May 17th, and there's a really good reason for people to go and file their taxes. There have been 3 stimulus payments made available to people during the COVID-19 pandemic. The last stimulus payment was under the American Rescue Plan. And there are some people with disabilities who may not have received all of their payments. More likely, they haven't received the last payment from the American Rescue Plan, but may not have received all 3 payments because they're not required to file taxes because their income is below the filing threshold. So in that instance, people with disabilities have to wait until the federal government finds an alternative way to distribute the stimulus payment. Now, we know the IRS continues to work on automatically sending payments to individuals on SSI and individuals on SSDI. And here's an interesting statistic. The Washington Post reported at the end of March, nearly 30 million beneficiaries of Social Security are still waiting for their payments. So why is that? It's because they don't file taxes. So we really want to encourage the disability community to take steps to receive all of their federal payments. And the fastest route to get your stimulus payment and determine if you qualify for other COVID-19 tax benefits is to file your taxes even if you don't normally file a tax return. So please file your returns by May 17th. Now, there are several reasons why people on Social Security— Supplemental Security Income and Social Security Disability Income may want to file their taxes now. So one, you can avoid a further delay in receipt of your stimulus payment. 2, there are additional tax benefits for dependent children and dependent adults that you can receive if you file your tax return. You could be eligible for a stimulus payment even if you didn't qualify before because your income might have changed. And it's a faster route. The government can have your current banking information and you can skip all of the problems that might arise if you don't file your tax return. So, we know advocacy matters, and the best thing to do is to file a tax return by May 17th. Now, if you go to disabilityrightspa.org, we have links to sites that will refer you to free tax return help. The IRS has a free tax preparation referral program, and So does the AARP. So go to disabilityrightspa.org, get all of this information, and make sure you go and get your free tax help to file your return by May 17th.

Yes, that is great advice. Perry, why do you think that is, that so many people do not file their taxes from the disability community? Do you think that maybe has something to do with People with significant disabilities having difficulty even getting out of the house. What do you think?

Joyce Bender, I think that is certainly a good reason why people with disabilities who are below the threshold to file income taxes don't file. It's possible that they find the return cumbersome. Maybe it's not in plain language. And you're right, getting out of the house to see to see a tax preparer could pose difficulty. I think you're absolutely right about that. But there are some free sites that might be helpful to people, and they may be able to get someone on the line that can give them the accommodations they need to file a tax return.

Okay, that's good. Well, Perry, you keep us up to date. Thank you, and give us that website for Disability Rights PA.

Yes, it's disabilityrightspa.org. That's dot org, and we have all the information you need and the places to go for free tax help.

And you can also make a donation. So, Perry, thank you so much. We'll look forward to talking to you next week.

Thanks, Joyce Bender.

Oh, we have Perry and have had her on for years because, Josh, there is no place you can go if you have a disability to hear what's going on, you know, on time. So Perry's the CEO of Disability Rights PA, which is, I'm sure you know, protection and advocacy. They are all attorneys. Working there, and she is just the most awesome person. So Josh, yeah, Josh, I wanted to talk to you. You know, we've been talking about people with mental health disabilities and the importance of employment. What do you think companies can do to promote inclusion for people living with mental health disabilities?

Yeah, I think this is, this is my main thrust of advocacy because it kind of fits between what I do for a living, you know, helping companies treat their employees fairly under the law. And, you know, I get to do a little bit of what I am passionate about. And a lot of it might seem common sense, but let me go through some things with you. One is, you know, there is all kinds of screenings for physical ailments. So the first would be to make mental health self-assessment tools available, like on an intranet or from a worksite. You keep it confidential, but, you know, it could ask a bunch of questions and allow someone to see if they need to do anything about what, what is going on with them. To offer free or subsidized clinical screenings for depression. There are so many people who experience depression on any given year. To me, this is an an absolute must-have. Again, you know, for someone to be able to be seen by someone and to be asked a battery of questions to see, you know, what, what kind of mental health shape they're in and to get that, you know, early involvement. The other is to, in employee health insurance, to have no or low out-of-pocket costs for depression meds and mental health counseling. You know, the mental health parity is, is supposed to, is, is, is supposed to play a big role here. But, you know, we need to, we need to keep on everybody. For people who are just looking to build mental health, who, who, whose health may not be clinical, provide free or subsidized lifestyle coaching, counseling, or self-management programs. EAP programs are just the beginning. They tend to be short-term for a specific person. For a specific purpose. And there are some people who are looking to do, you know, major lifestyle changes. You know, one of the things I decided in my life that I was actively going to go from being an A-type to a B-type, and I'm going to put a lot of my time and energy into doing that. Now, I failed miserably, but it was super fun to try. This is, this is one that I love and that Highmark has done, not just for disability, but for the entire D&I space. Post materials throughout the workplace that promote positive mental health. I love testimonials. So you would put a picture of you, of me, of someone of a different religion, and they would say something. And they would essentially be saying it to the entire workforce. So, you know, one of the things that we did was when you have to self-acknowledge disability for Various programs we have of like, "Hi, I am Josh. I am disabled, and I did this for, you know, Bob and Cindy and Bruce." So like I am identifying this way so that future people with disabilities can have a better shake than what I have had. And it is— that is living inclusion. So it is one thing to talk about it. It is another thing to have it on your elevator doors, in your hallways, on your intranet so people could see like, We actively care about one another and that we are, we are talking to one another about our specific situation, whether it be, you know, again, race, religion, sex, disability status, veteran status. I love that one. You know, we should host seminars or workshops that address mental health topics and stress management techniques. Create and maintain dedicated quiet spaces for relaxation activities. Provide managers with training to help them recognize the signs and symptoms of stress and depression in team members and encourage them to seek help. This one is very risky as an employment lawyer because we normally tell managers for so long, "Don't get involved. Don't get involved. You will learn that they have a disability, and then you will be stuck knowing that." Well, I think times are changing, and I A company should make their own decision, or, you know, as to, you know, are they going to be ultra protective from a legal sense, or are they going to try to save lives if they need to save a life, or at least encourage someone to go seek help? I think that is a fascinating one. And the last one is something I am passionate about, which is give employees opportunities to participate in decisions about the issues that affect job stress. So we are not turning the keys to the kingdom over to the workforce. But there are ways that work is being conducted that doesn't affect the bottom line, but it does affect the day-to-day, you know, lives of the people who, who are doing it. Think of what, you know, COVID has been fascinating, and it's been tragic, but from a work perspective, it has taught a lot of people that how many people actually need to be in an office. And, you know, I don't know for, for, for, or to some disabled people, does this work better? Is this worse? Is this not providing the social needs, uh, which affect mental health to many? So there's so much that we're going to study out of this collective experience that, that we're having, um, that we could learn and we could improve the mental health of our workforce.

Wow. You know, I like that part, Josh, when you were also talking about You know, the seminars, bringing people in, because I always tell people, in addition to that, if you can have people like you speaking, people like you that they see, this successful executive, you know, it really does make a difference. It does. It has an impact.

I don't know if it was just me or, you know, it was coming back around, like, you know, we grew up kind of poor, kind of, you know, lower middle class, but like all I wanted to do was see someone like me succeed. And I don't know why that, like I still do. I still see, so, you know, now I've gotten older, I'm like, well, who's, who's doing the middle part of their career better? Like if I'm, if I'm 20, you know, when I was young at Reed Smith, all I wanted to do was see someone who's her age with a successful family, a great practice, really seem to be enjoying life. I agree, that means so much to people, especially if that person is not, you know, a remote or a celebrity or anything like that, but it is someone who is actually like walking the halls and close to them.

Yeah. You know, is that not funny? Because when I grew up, to me, a doctor or an attorney, oh my God, that was like, Woo, that was another world because the people that we saw that were successful worked at the railroad, you know, or Penn Power. Yeah, something like that. It's amazing because I too did not grow up privileged. But yeah, that's true. That is so true. So, Josh, how about Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law? You're now on the board. Will you tell us, share with our listeners, why you believe what Bazelon does is so important?

Because they're gonna do what I can't do because I'm only one person. And they do it better than anybody else does. So, you know, I, I've written an appellate brief or two in my career, but there's nothing that looks as good as what comes out of Bazelon. You know, they are defending the big-ticket issues for mental health and individuals who have mental health disabilities in a way that no individual could do on their own, no matter how talented they, you know, they were. So it is, it is an honor to, to be a part of, you know, that, that group of thinkers and that group of change agents in the mental health space. Like I said before, it is a, career accomplishment for me because I cannot think of, you know, I think I have the appellate law talent to be a mental health advocate in that way. But I can, I could damn raise some money for them and offer my opinion on this or that. And if I could make their work happen a bit better, then that is going to make me so happy. You know, they are going to change the stigma. They are going to stop mentally ill people from being sent back into institutions. This stuff is all recent history. Do not say it cannot happen again. They are going to stop it from happening.

Yeah, that is right. That is right. That do not— yes, that is so true. I, too, admire them so much. Holly O'Donnell, outstanding CEO, but then they have people like Jennifer Mathis, yeah, works there, that is known everywhere as a tremendous disability rights advocate, not to mention Eve Hill, who is known throughout the disability community, who serves as our chair. So I, I too, uh, am very, very honored to be on, on their board. And you know, you were talking about state Go ahead.

It is the people like Eve and Holly that when, when they talk, like, it is, it is so powerful to hear because you can just feel the passion and the dedication to task. So, again, it is, it is, it is awesome to be in their presence.

Yes, I too agree with you. And you know what, Josh? Before I forget to tell this, oh my goodness, because there's so many people looking for employment at all different, you know, levels in their life. Today in Western Pennsylvania, actually all the way up to Erie now that I think about it, Eat'n Park. Eat'n Park is a restaurant chain, and the CEO, Jeff Broadhurst, is a friend of mine, and today they have to hire like 200 to 300 people. You can walk into one of those places from 10 to 10 and be interviewed on the spot. And I know employment changes everyone's life. There are students with disabilities that, you know, could go there and get a job. Uh, you know, anyone seeking employment during this time Eaton Park today. Of course, they will be continuing to hire, but I don't want to forget to tell that. You know what, Josh, I want to make sure I get to ask you this question. What, what advice do you have for young people living with a mental health disability who are seeking employment and seem to be hitting obstacle after obstacle?

Yeah, I feel like a hypocrite on this one. I think I do have some advice because, you know, I mean, I've had 2 jobs in my life, and I didn't disclose before either one of them. That doesn't mean I think that you have to disclose. I think that you need to be the talented, wonderful person that you are, and if you don't need an accommodation to do your job, You, I don't, I'm not going to tell you have to disclose. That would be crazy for me to say that. I think that if you, if you, you shouldn't let the fact that you do need help, or you do need an accommodation, stop you from applying for anything. I, you know, I, I work for a wonderful company and I'm their employment lawyer. I know what we do to accommodate individuals who come through our door under any situation. You should not. Let that stop you. You, you know, you should not stop anything from taking your shots to have the kind of life that you want and that you think that, you know, makes sense for you. So if there are, if there is an opportunity that does not go your way, there are many opportunities to come. And I would just say, like, you only need one good thing to come your way to have a remarkable career. So, I would just, I would just, I would, I would make an assessment as to what you want, you know, kind of what you need, and then I would identify what you want to do and just keep plugging and plugging. And if it turns out not to work out or you need additional skills, you acquire those skills and then go right back at it.

That's right. You do. And I want to say with something Josh said, you know, when people say to me, when I go on the interview, should I disclose I have a disability? Now, obviously, if you're blind or deaf in a wheelchair, they know you have a disability. But to answer that question for people with, like me and Josh, with non-apparent disabilities, absolutely not. They are not hiring you for your disability. They are hiring you a person, and not everyone is Highmark. You know, not everyone feels the same way about there being talent being the only discriminator. So no, you do not disclose on the interview that you have a disability unless for some reason you want to. And once you get the job, you still do not have to disclose. That's your choice. But I just want to stress to you, no matter what you choose to do, don't be ashamed ever. So Josh, uh, I, I've had a remarkable career without disclosing.

I'm having a remarkable career after disclosing. So, um, you know, like, whatever you are comfortable being. I mean, it took me to 40 years old to disclose to others. So, I mean, I'm not the one to be giving this advice, but I guess I would say be who you want to be. And if you, if you, if you need to live authentically with your disability, please do so. If you, if that's just, you know, if it's just a part of you and your, your, your talent and you have what it takes, you don't have to do anything you don't want to do.

Right. Oh, I agree with you. Be you, but don't be ashamed. All right. Well, Josh, before we close the show, you know, you obviously have been impacted in your life. You have such passion and success. You know, you grew up in a city that's not like being in a privileged area, and yet look how successful you are. So my question is, who, who is your role model?

So my, you know, and this, I, I've got so much more of this when I started working for, for a company than with the law firm, but I, I see people of all walks of life, and there are so many people who just get out of bed in the morning, they shave, they shower, they get some coffee, and they go to work. And all is right with the world. My role models are not those people. My role models have a lot going on when they wake up in the morning. A lot of them do not want to get up in the morning. Some of them do not want to be when they get up in the morning. And they still get up., and they still get ready for work, and then they look out the mirror, look in a mirror, or look out the window, and then they're ready for whatever challenge awaits. It might take them longer. It might take a lot of convincing themselves to face the day. But, you know, we know that's what being someone with a disability means. It means just having to gear up and try a little harder, focus a little more to get what you want out of life, to get the opportunities that you want. But if you can do that, if you are doing that on a day-to-day basis, you are my hero. And you should have empathy for any person who can get out of bed and face the day. I do not know what else to say other than that.

Oh, no, I think that's very powerful what you're saying. And, you know, those, just as you said, I, you know, I have employees that get up so early when they have to use access. Right now, everyone is working from home, you know, with this new work life that everyone's going through. But when we go back to work, or when, when some of us, because it's going to be different, even with my company for everyone, but oh, my people had to get in there to work that use a wheelchair. They were getting up at 4:30 in the morning to get ready because they want to be late. So I know exactly what Josh means. I agree with that. And Josh, I could not thank you enough for being our guest today.

Joyce, anytime. When I met you, I never thought there'd be a 14-month period of time when I wouldn't see you. So I hope, I hope this doesn't stay too long.

It won't. And hey, we end every show with a quote, and today it has to be Judy Chamberlain, who said, Choice. Not force. This is Joyce Bender, America's Voice, where disability matters, at voiceamerica.com. Talk to you next week with Raul Suarez Rodriguez. See you then.

Voice America would like to thank you for tuning in. Please join us next Tuesday Stay at 11 AM Pacific time and 2 PM Eastern time for another installment of Disability Matters right here on the Voice America Variety Channel. We are the leader in live internet talk radio. VoiceAmerica.com.