HMHS' Commitment to the Employment of People with Disabilities

Welcome to Disability Matters with your host Joyce Bender. All comments, views, and opinions expressed on the show are solely those of the host, guest, and callers. Now the host of Disability Matters, here's Joyce Bender.

Hi everyone, welcome to the show today. I have to tell you, a special shout out to all the listeners in the 17 countries that listen to this show. China, you are getting bigger and bigger as far as the listening audience, and so is Australia. And you know, there are countries where maybe there's just one listener, like Saudi Arabia. I don't care. One listener, that's how everything gets started. So I hope if you're in one of these countries and you're listening to me right now, I cannot stress to you how important it is to share this podcast with other people with disabilities in your country, because in many of these countries there is no voice. So make sure, remember, share this with other people, which brings me to Richard Roberts. Oh, I love him so much. He is with the Embassy in South Korea. Actually, I think he just left, retired from there, and he'll be going to a new location, but he listens no matter where he is. And Richard has been a friend of mine for many years. He is a great friend and disability advocate, a friend of all people with disabilities. And then Gang-young, who also is with the State Department, and he is in South Korea. And I actually got to visit South Korea twice.. And my, uh, the person that accompanies me is of course the Embassy. So Gang Yong accompanied us wherever we went, and he too, he just really cares about people with disabilities. I remember one time I spoke to this group, uh, and Gang Yong, I know you're going to remember this, a small group of people with epilepsy. And in South Korea, they don't even say the word epilepsy. And I walk up front and I say, "I am living with epilepsy and I'm not ashamed I'm living with epilepsy." And when I was done speaking, this one young girl, maybe in her early 30s, jumped up and started sobbing and said, "Please don't go. Please, please don't go," and ran up and hugged me. I remember Gangyang having to get up, leave the room, because I know it brought tears to his eyes. So Gangyang, love you, miss you. And Venyamin in Kazakhstan, I miss you. I appreciate all of your support. But this year we have some new friends. I did a presentation for Tunisia with, hey, right from Beaver, Pennsylvania, Cheryl Harris, and also, for Libya. Can you believe that? With Ambassador Norland. And now, oh my goodness, this is so exciting. Later today, I will be talking to the Embassy from Nigeria. So, you know, we keep spreading the word about one thing: people with disabilities are valuable. People with disabilities have the rights that everyone else has. Disability rights are civil rights. So I just wanna thank all of you. Hey, Yoshiko Dart, special shout out to you. You know I'd never forget you on any show. And to my sponsor, my sponsor for the past 5 years, Highmark. What can I say? You've heard me talk about Highmark many, many times on this show. I always say, Highmark sets the high mark for other companies to follow, but the leadership from the top, from David Holmberg on, is unbelievable. They really do walk the talk because you know what? You all know this. Where the rubber meets the road is employment. So how thrilled do you think I am to have as a guest today, a president from Highmark as our guest. He is the president of HM Health Solutions. I can tell you, he is Mr. No-nonsense, get the job done, make it happen. And for all of you listening around the world, he is your advocate. Welcome to the show, Mick.

Thank you for that great introduction and glad to be here today.

Well, it is a thrill to have you again because I just think so highly of you. Uh, you know, I very rarely on this show endorse people, but I will endorse McMalik. He really makes it happen. He really does. Um, and so I thought we could start with talking a little bit about you. How did it come to be that you joined Highmark? Like, what's your story? How did this all get started?

Well, I was actually working in Atlanta. I've been working in healthcare information technology for quite a while, and recruiter reached out to me on LinkedIn. I'm sure that's familiar to people, and the process just took off from there. I felt I would be able to come here and make more of a difference. The way that we're structured here, our IT organization has a lot of responsibility in delivering patient care around the technology and the systems and keeping everything going. So I felt that this would be a great job to figure out how to make more of a difference in people's Well, I have two questions about that.

First, uh, again, so people understand who are listening, as the president of the HM Health Solutions, what are your main responsibilities? What is the size of this organization that you oversee?

Well, gosh, yeah, it's a complex environment. We have both the support of a Blue Cross plan. Highmark is a large Blue Cross plan for Western Pennsylvania. We also support other— excuse me— plans outside of Pennsylvania, Minnesota, Wyoming, and North Dakota. We do all their payer Blue Cross systems. We support a very large provider network, Allegheny Health Network. It's a very large network here in Western Pennsylvania and beyond, and many other ancillary systems. So it's a very large technology footprint that has a lot of different components, everything from the very large mainframe systems that I'm sure people have heard of, the IBM Big Iron they call it, all the way to devices that are on inside the hospitals on the floors monitoring patient care. So it's all over the place with a lot of people engaged, a lot. We run 24/7. We have, you know, every kind of responsibility you can imagine in the IT support and development space.

Well, how many people report to you then?

Well, it's early in the day, so, you know, from a technology perspective, right around 6,000. And then from, from an operations perspective, we have moved over health plan operations, which is claims processing, customer service, and benefits. So, you know, I have a special affinity for the customer service reps because for many of our members and patients, they're the front line. They're the ones explaining how to get care, how to read a bill, how to understand their benefits, how to guide a patient member into care. So, you know, for right now they are a big part of a patient's interaction and experience with Highmark. So that area just recently moved over. So the combined area will be somewhere between 9,000 to 10,000 folks.

Wow, you have a lot of people. You have, I already knew you had a big job, but you know, sometimes it's just hearing it, it's amazing. And I know you're doing a great job because I know Karen Hanlon and David. And David Hallberg is the CEO. Karen Hanlon is executive vice president, but sort of the right arm of David. And they always— well, they're just so awesome, but they always speak highly of you. And I think it's because of what I said about that you are definitely not Mr. Political. I mean, you really don't like bureaucratic stuff. You get the job done. And you know what? That's what we need, people that get the job done. So you are, and everyone listening to this show, including companies, Mick is a phenomenal leader in the employment of people with disabilities. I personally, I'm gonna give you an example. During that pandemic, He called me and he said, Joyce, we are not going to let any of those people on contract through you off. No one. I made that clear to everyone. And any single time I've needed something, he does it. He makes it happen. So, so I can tell you, he is the real deal. But Not everyone is like that. Highmark has stood behind me for 25, 25 years hiring people with disabilities. Bill Lowry, CEO, John Brau, CEO, Ken Maloney, CEO, Bill Winkenwerder, CEO, and now over the top, over the top, David Holmberg. Why do you think You are such an advocate. Why, why not all people are like you. Sadly, 70% of people with disabilities are not counted in the workforce. But why do you think it is that you personally have taken this stand for people with disabilities?

You know, it's really kind of a simple story. I was working late here one evening and leaving the building, and there was a gentleman that left in front of me, and he was a person with disabilities. He needed two crutches and other assistance. And this guy is slugging his way to the elevator, slugging his way downstairs, slugging his way way to a bus to get home. I thought, if I think I'm having a bad day, I am not. So I admired that person and I respected that person for whatever he got in life, it didn't let— he didn't let that slow him down. He didn't let them take him out. So I felt that that person was a classic example of the capabilities of somebody regardless of the physical situation. So I feel very strongly. And then today, you know, we've all heard about supply chain, many more jobs than people, many more jobs. I feel extraordinarily serious that people that have the acumen within for IT, doesn't matter where you work. It just doesn't. That's changed. So when you're doing IT work, developing code, testing configurations, checking the systems, you don't have to be lifting 100-pound bales of hay to do that job. You just need to be attentive to the responsibility, be able to perform the job and get it done. So I don't think there are any boundaries whatsoever for an individual that once again has the acumen, has the interest in IT to be limited by those things anymore. When I was coming up through the ranks, it was old school. You had to be on site to be seen, to be counted, so where people knew you were working. It's all changed. It's just all changing. Highmark's on the forefront of that. We have work from anywhere. So any physical boundaries that may have existed have been blown up. So that allows us to tap into, as you said, Joyce, a supply chain of people willing to work, wanting to work, and that would fit in because the world is now more conducive for that, at least for us.

Well, that's right, because Prior to— there's a little joke in the disability community, but it's a joke, but let's say it's bittersweet when we say this, but it took a pandemic to allow people with disabilities to work from home. It took a pandemic. That is so true. Excluding you, because you allowed my employee with quadriplegia to work from home from the beginning. And he now works for you, and you changed his life forever. But getting back to companies, you remember you said about old school? I call a company that's— you know, it's hard enough to get people hired. You know that if 70% are not hired. So, I would call a company and say, "I have this great employee." Oh, they have this great IT background. I know what you're looking for. They have this skill. However, they have epilepsy, so they can't drive. Would they be able to work from home? Oh, no, ha ha, no, we don't do that. That's like a gift. That's a perk. That's if you've been here for a while, then those are the the first people to get that opportunity. And this is what people with disabilities had to run into even when they had the skills. They were not able to work from home, which is why I'm going to write an article called "It Took a Pandemic." But Mick, do you be— you know what you said about that supply chain? There is an untapped labor pool. Of people who want to work, who have the skills, and who will be there every day with a smile on their face, because people don't realize how lucky they are to have a job. Do you think it's possible that for many companies they will continue allowing people to work from home?

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, the Delta variant, we're actually taking additional steps here. You can bet your bottom dollar that more companies are going to mandate vaccines. You know, this is not like you catch a cold and you're in the house for a couple weeks. This is a very serious matter, this illness. And I know there are some people that don't necessarily believe in vaccines, but I assure you working in healthcare and seeing and talking to the frontline people, this is real. This is very real. And, you know, this has destroyed families. Of course, it's taken many lives. Even when you get well, you're not really well like you used to be. This is all real stuff. It just— and, you know, being part of this great company, I see it. You know, I— we experience it. Yeah, I don't see any company necessarily going back to the way things were. Also, all the surveys including ours say that most people feel they can be as or more productive working from home as they came here, taking out commuter time, etc. Now the trick is creating a sense of community a sense of belonging. You know, you don't want to be too remote. You don't know what's going on with the company. But we've been able to do some really outstanding things to create a sense of a person— you don't have to see the person every day to establish a relationship with them. So the trick is you don't want people out there not feeling like they're part of anything. So you've got to— no matter where they work, you've got to pull them in and make them feel part of it.

Yeah, that's what we do. We have every morning, I have a meeting with my leadership team, but every week we have at lunchtime on Wednesday, a social hour. And this is a day that any employee can, on Teams, join in. And it's more like a fun day and it will be different things we'll talk about. That, you know, people enjoy talking about. And we just had our virtual picnic and it was fabulous. It was unbelievable. But you're right, you have to keep people feeling that they are part of all of that. Now, what are you doing to do that, Mick?

Well, ironically enough, Christina Picone here is with me.. And we've developed 6 to 9 different communication offerings. We have a thing called the Mic Drop. Do some video, some fun with it. Yeah, it's crazy, but then again, so am I. We have newsletters. We have frequent updates. We have Friday reports. Our attitude is, You have to go out of your way to not know what's going on with the company. When Christine and I were here, we did some surveys, and our biggest detriment was the employees didn't feel like they were being communicated to. There was things going on that they didn't feel part of. So we immediately adapted, and so now you may not choose all channels, but we're going to be able to get to you through one channel or another. So you know what your company, what you're working for, what it all means and what we're doing to make things better. And the proof of the pudding is we do employee SAT surveys and they have gone up significantly from when we started to where we're at now. I mean off the charts, gone up. It's all because we want people to know what's going on and that there's a future here.. And, you know, like it or not, we're in it together.

Yeah, we are. We are in it together. I just want to mention that person there with you, Christine Picone, is awesome. But I know you already know that. But she too, right away, was an advocate of helping me find employment for people with disabilities. And I don't know why Everyone would not realize this is a candidate's market. People are being placed, recruited, placed in, recruited out, placed in, recruited out. You have this untapped labor pool. You know what, Mick? Right before this radio show today, I talked to a young man, Ryan. He lives in New York, but he is working virtually for Blue Cross Blue Shield of Tennessee. And he has a computer science degree, really good grade point average, really just such a nice young man. But when he graduated, he could not get hired. This is a combination of a neurodiverse disability and a little bit of difficulty speaking. I cannot believe he had to work at Lowe's until he met my team. You know, now he is so on top of the world. And, you know, he's telling me on the phone, "I'll be at work. You can count on me. I'll be there I'll be early. All my bosses have always said, you know, what a great job I do. When I was asking, what do you like to do? Computers, play with computers, work with computers. But here was a person, talented, that would have been left out. That's hard to believe when there is such a need for people. And I hope you will, you know, Look at Highmark, look at McMalik, look at David Holmberg, look at Karen Handlin, look at what they're doing. And how can you do that? Take this podcast and share it. You need to share this with people you're hearing saying, "We don't know how to find people." Share this podcast. And I mentioned David Holmberg. You know, last year, David, the CEO, David Holmberg, made the commitment. He said, "Joyce," I wanna hire 30 people with disabilities from you to celebrate the 30th anniversary of the signing of the ADA. And this year, Larry Kliman called me and said, "I talked to David and we wanna hire 31 people to celebrate the 31st anniversary of the signing of the ADA." And folks, they did hire 30 people and it was a pandemic. They did it. And these people were in STEM areas. They were not all in one area. But I wanted to ask you, how much of an impact do you believe, because you've worked at other companies, that someone like a David Holmberg has on getting the entire company, you know, committed to this?

Well, it is a big deal. I mean, he not only introduced it, he facilitates this to occur. He fully supports it. And it's like anything else in life, it's got to start from the top down. David and Karen are true believers in the community, and these folks are part of the community. So they're firm believers. It's not just a bunch of words on a press release. They believe in the viability of all members of the community and making the environment better. So it's easy for someone like myself to break the rules because they're there to support it. Not only that, we have more rules than you can shake a stick at. I don't like rules. Rules limit my creativity. I gotta be me, Joyce Bender, gotta be me.

You've gotta be you 'cause I like the you. I like the you. I like the unfettered you because, you know, you meet people in life and they all, Joyce Bender, you're wonderful, you're great, you're all these things. But I'll say, don't tell me I'm wonderful, hire someone. So Mick doesn't say any of that to me. He just hires people. And if something is a roadblock, I know if I call Christine and she lets him know, Boom, bang, that roadblock is gone. And with that, folks, it's time for the news on the half hour, and we have ready to go our newscaster, the CEO of Disability Rights of PA, known nationally in this country, Perry Jude Radisic.

Hi, Joyce Bender, and thanks for having us again this week. And I have such exciting news.

I love exciting news.

Well, last week we talked about the expiration of the CDC, the Centers for Disease Control eviction moratorium. Well, really, thanks to your listeners and other advocates across the country, the Centers for Disease Control announced on August 3rd another eviction moratorium. We'll talk about how it's a little narrower than the last one, and the new moratorium will protect renters who have COVID-19-related financial issues through October 3rd of this year. So since then, right, since last week, the CDC issued a new but somewhat narrower Eviction moratorium. If you go to disabilityrightspa.org, click on the segment for today for advocacy matters, you'll find the CDC new order. So the new order only covers renters living in communities experiencing a high or substantial level of COVID-19 transmission. So as it stands, it would cover about 90% of all renters who find themselves— in this situation. So if you want to know which counties have a substantial or high level of transmission for COVID-19, we encourage you to visit the CDC tracker. And again, we have a link to not only the CDC order, but the Centers for Disease Control tracker. So individuals who want to utilize the new moratorium should check the CDC tracker to make sure that their county is in a high or substantial level of transmission for COVID-19. If you don't live in one of those counties, you will not be able to utilize the new CDC eviction moratorium. Now, um, it's still critical that we encourage renters to apply for emergency rental assistance funds provided by Congress, and we know state and local governments are working hard to release those funds to those in need. Now, there's one unfortunate thing. There were a few days when renters were not covered by the moratorium. So those tenants who may have experienced a full eviction in that interim period are not covered by the new moratorium. But if someone received an eviction notice during that interim period and they're still in their apartments, they would be covered by the moratorium. That eviction notice while it is still valid, the process to evict should be stayed over the next 60 days. So at Advocacy Matters, the best way we can help renters in counties with high or substantial spread of the virus is to provide these referrals to state and local resources to help individuals facing eviction financially. So go to disabilityrightspa.org for links on this topic, including how to find the emergency rental assistance funding.

That is great because as you well know, people from the Black community and disabled community have had a high death rate, but an increasing amount percentage-wise of COVID And disability and poverty go hand in hand. So thank God for that. That is great. And as you say, thank you to all the listeners. I mean, don't think it doesn't matter. It does matter. So, Perry, we'll look forward to talking to you next week.

Great. Thank you, Joyce Bender.

Bye-bye. So, Mick, I wanted to talk about— well, this really fits with what we just talked about, helping people that are marginalized, and that would be the Apprenti program. Why don't you tell our listeners about the Apprenti program?

Sure. Well, there's a couple of things we're doing. Joyce, to your credit, we have up to 10 people in the queue right now coming through your organization that we're looking to do placement opportunities for. So that's very significant for us. I know that I have my leadership and Christina actively engaged in interviews and getting that going. So the Apprenti program is geared toward—

Excuse me. That's big. That's big because with your leadership, that's what makes the difference. You and Christine, that's what makes the difference. So, okay, I'm sorry. Go ahead. Apprenti program.

Yeah. No, and that's why we're excited about those 10. That's what we call momentum. The Apprenti program is what we're going to go and seek those out that need the assistance. So many, Joyce, of the folks you bring, they kind of come to you a little bit or you meet in the middle. These are folks we need to go find that don't necessarily have college degrees. But they have the aptitude to be trained in a program that will allow them to break into IT. So this is the next logical extension where we go find folks, recruit folks that you wouldn't ordinarily seek out and bring them into the IT job market. So, you know, Joyce Bender, what you said makes sense. You give a check to somebody, you know, might take care of rent or something. You give somebody a job, they'll take care of their own rent. So we always look at it from you give jobs, you give person that independence. And, you know, independence for some folks may not be mobile independence, of course, but, you know, nothing happens in America without financial independence. We all know that for a frickin' frack. In fact, I just want to use a lot of Fs there, Joyce. So financial independence allows people to take care of themselves. So we're excited. We're already in deep with the state. We're doing some things with the state and this program that's having the state to go back and make sure that their Ts and Cs are crossed, but we're going to do this because It's not just a one-time circus comes to town program. We want to set this up for repeatability. Selfishly, we want to hire more people in the Western Pennsylvania area to have long-term employment with us. So we're going to seek those folks out that already have roots in the community and build on that. And my philosophy is, Not everybody, not hardly anybody can afford a degree anymore. If you got to support yourself, support a family, or go to school, yeah, chances are you're going to take care of what you need to take care of. And it's so expensive to go to school. A lot of people are hustling multiple jobs. It's tough. It's not like you can just— not everybody's born with the opportunity to go to college and get that going. So, we need to seek out the next group of people who need that boost.

Yeah, because over time I've met so many people that I thought were really good candidates, but without the 4-year degree, forget it, they weren't interested. And as you just said, well, not everyone can get the 4-year degree. Not everyone can do that. And once again, just so you know, for my listeners, do you know I knew this little secret because Mick came to me months ago and said, "Okay, this isn't official yet, but Joyce, you know what I wanna do? I wanna help people left out. I wanna help people marginalized, and that includes people with disabilities." So, you know, business people, you know, you better learn from this. How many people with disabilities, leaders in this country, always say, "Why aren't we included?" Here you are, McMalachy Mark, you're included. And why wouldn't you be? I don't understand that why there's, you know, here are all these protected class groups and over there somewhere is disability. You know, intersectionality. You can be African American and have a disability. You know, you can be a woman and have a disability, on and on. I don't know why people don't get that, but everyone, regardless of color or gender, can have a disability and most likely do have a disability. So, Mick, when will this take off, this Apprenti program?

Well, Christina and I are in the middle of it right now, so our goal is to get the first cohort in process by the beginning of the year. We want— excuse me, by the end of this year. We wanted to move faster, but we are working through, literally with no exaggeration, working through the state government and ascertaining how we can set this up. So we are highly attentive to this. We have the Pittsburgh Technology Council engaged with us as well, and they are a stellar organization. Once again, very community-focused, very job-focused, big value. So we have multiple smart people looking at this, and we just talked today that we need to make significant progress with the state kerfuffles by the end of the month, or I'm going to go to my assets here within HIMARC to help us with the state. So, you know, we're not going to let this take its own course. We're going to give ample time for people to do their job, but at some point, Joyce, I think you know me enough, like, the hell with that. We're going to come up with Plan B. So by the end of the month, either this goes on the trajectory we anticipated or the fabulous Plan B, which we excel at here, will be invoked.

Okay, if anyone's listening involved with this, let me warn you, start moving because he will move. But when he moves, it's more like a bulldozer coming through. So if I were you, I would get that done so he doesn't have to go to Plan B. Plan B will be blasting. Be Beef or blasting, that's what will happen. What did I say earlier? I can always count on him. If he says he's gonna do it, it's done. He does it, always. And I wanted to say one other thing about this Apprenti program. Yesterday, I talked to these two mothers of children with epilepsy that who do now, sadly, they don't live here in Western Pennsylvania, but they do not have college degrees. And I told them this story and I thought the one woman was going to cry on the phone. So I know they're listening. They told me to tell you thank you. Even though it won't benefit them, they know it will benefit other young people that could have epilepsy and don't have a chance. So on their behalf, thank you.

Okay, that's, that's a real story there.

Yeah, I know. So Mick, you have incredible firepower. That's how I describe you. That's the right thing— firepower. Okay, so I need to know, who is your role model? Like, who, who, who do you think— why are you this way?

I don't know why I'm this way. I'm not right in the head. But that aside, I have to say lately you're the role model, Joyce Bender. I mean, there is no stronger advocate for the folks who need it than yourself. Everybody needs to have representation. Everybody needs to be able to have somebody they can count on to say things that maybe they can't say, to do things maybe they can't do. So you are ceaseless. You don't stop. You always look for the opportunity. So you're to be commended. They could have no better advocate than yourself.

Well, that is certainly a huge compliment coming from you. It certainly is, and that means so much to me. But in addition to me, also, do you have other role models that you feel helped impact you to be the way you are today? Yeah, let me tell you, I like his leadership style.

You know, it was very effective. There was not a lot of, oh, no answers for old Genghis. So like, well, we can do two choices. We can take my way or I can behead you. Well, Gingas, I'm part of the plan. Great plan. I'm in. Count me in, Gingas. What was I thinking?

Oh, Christina, now I know why you said— when I said Christina, you get the job done, she said, not like Mick, not like Mick gets it done. And oh, how true that is. Mick, at Highmark, do you believe that with people with disabilities, when they have visible disabilities, do you feel that has more of an impact on managers when they actually see a person with a visible disability and, of course, doing a great job?

You know, yes. I think that people are more inclined to develop an affinity for a relationship with people they can see. I know I didn't really know the gentleman as I gave the example who was headed home from his day of work, but just his tenacity and his attitude was enough to say, you know, got to do more. Got to do more. So I truly believe that if leadership were to witness these folks in the workplace and watch these folks have to go the extra effort, the extra miles, the extra time to work, from work, wherever, I definitely think they'd have more of an understanding of how those who don't have those encumbrances should help those who do.

Yes, one story that I have to tell that was talked about at the White House but is repeated frequently by David is I had met a young African American many years ago And he uses— I know you know him. He uses the wheelchair with his arms behind him. It looks like there's a remote control on his wheelchair. And the reason for that is he has cerebral palsy. So, he has so much spasticity and movement in his arms that he can't operate a wheelchair other than this way. So in addition to that, he has a speech difficulty, so it's hard to understand him when he's talking. And I met him at this job fair, and I got his resume, and I looked at it and it said, "I will accept $10,000 a year because of my disability." And on the top, it had his education, master's degree in rehab and technology from the University of Pittsburgh. But he'll take $10,000. I said, whoever told you to put this on your resume, take it off. And, you know, I talked to some companies about him, but of course, Who was open to all this? Highmark. And Highmark hired him as a software developer. And since then, you know, he's been promoted and moved up and he's doing a great job. But in the middle of his career, he was coming to work one day, on the sidewalk he was, when his wheelchair stopped working. And he didn't want to miss work. He wasn't that far from Fifth Avenue Place, which is where Highmark is located. He wasn't that far away. Away when this happened. But he didn't want to miss work. So he called the Pittsburgh police and got an ambulance and went back to work on a stretcher. Because he did not want to miss work. And let me just tell you that it was so overwhelming to the CEO when I took Ted Kennedy Jr. to meet him, because Highmark has little idea how much they are known nationally. And, you know, it's great and it's sad. There's no one else doing what they do. That's the sad part. It's great because they deserve these accolades. But what the CEO said was, you know, I've seen people leave Highmark on a stretcher, but I've never seen them come to work on a stretcher. And that is called incredible dedication and appreciation, and he's still working at Highmark. And what do you think about that, Mick?

Well, I mean, that, that's, that's just exactly the example of, of things. I, I wanted to take it a step further where I didn't want to look at these folks as different. They might have different circumstances, but my philosophy is if you're smart and you work hard and you care, I'm pretty sure there's something we can do with you. So to me, I don't want us to look at Joe as a disability person. I want us to look at Joe as a contributor, as a coder, a tester, a maintenance person. I need to have us look at Joe as Joe the person, the contributor, the employee, and not Joe as something else. I think until we get to that point, we— I don't think these people need a handout. They don't. They just need an opportunity, and they should be treated like everybody else in the pool of opportunities. And to me, that's our goal here where We don't look at people as something less, we just look at them as people.

Mm-hmm. I was interviewed the other day by this magazine and I said, "If you go to the symphony and you want to hear this beautiful piece by Beethoven, if all the chairs are not filled, you won't hear that beautiful symphony." And the same thing happens for companies, if they don't include all groups, they won't be as successful as if they did. So, Mick, over the past several years in your career, what is your proudest accomplishment?

Oh, gosh. You know, I grew up in Detroit. Detroit Public public Schools schools. I had worked a long time in information technology before I got a degree. When I started, you really did not need a degree. You just needed to prove that you could do the job, and I got breaks. So my proudest moment is being able to take the breaks I got and add to that, scale them up, and give breaks to other people that could use it. So I've benefited from some, you know, some good old-fashioned good luck, and now it's my turn to pay that back. So, you know, personal achievements come and go. This is a tough job. One day I'm a star, the next day I'm a bum. That's fine. But what has staying power is what you build after you've gone.

Yeah. Yeah, that is so true. Well, uh, Mick, for all of the businesses listening to the show right now, what message do you have for them?

Gotta give it a try. Gotta seek out this. Gotta put it on your list. I'm very much a list person. I have a list of lists. I have graph paper because you know why, Joyce? Everything Everything fits in a box. That's why. So maybe I'm a control freak, but that aside, doesn't mean I'm wrong. Got to give it a try. You will not be disappointed. And if you're not lucky, you actually might feel pretty good about yourself on the back end of this, to be honest. Not only that, you know, we need technology people. I can't think of any companies or industries that that don't. Got to tap into that pool of intellect, that pool of expertise, that passion, and put it on board. You know, once again, we are— it's not just committed. Now it's a way we do business. It's a way we do business. And how do we scale more of that, as I mentioned, with the candidates in the pipeline. So this is not a novelty. This is not something that we did This is how we will be doing business in the future.

Oh, what a great message that is. And one last message. What about young people and adults for that reason listening to the show right now that have run into obstacles after obstacles that are people with disabilities trying to gain employment? What message do you have for them?

Well, I would say depending on the community, I would focus on looking for a resource that Joyce represents in your area. Start there. And it wasn't just self-serving for Joyce. I really believe that Joyce is tireless in her efforts to give a voice that these folks have a tough time having a voice. So I would say, you know, get attached to the local area, the local, you know, assistance, the type of thing that Joyce represents, and attach yourself to it and go from there. I mean, you got to do that. I mean, you got to meet the— you got to meet companies halfway. You got to get the voice out there, and if I know anything about Joyce, She knows people in every place in the world. Matter of fact, the moon just called and the moon wanted one of Joyce's people. Now I didn't know the moon was hiring, so Joyce, I'm impressed. You know, now it's kind of a— if you want to talk about remote, Joyce, that moon is really remote. Thinking to myself, well, I'm not sure about the swimming pool there, but okay. So I would attach myself to someone that represents what Joyce Bender and her team do, which is, you know, once again, tireless. It's not a fad. It's not a fancy. It's what they do. And they believe in every single person they place. They have a personal stake in that. Get attached to that type of community and go from there.

Well, you know, we did work with NASA, but we didn't have the opportunity to send anyone to the moon. But we did work with NASA. And I just want to say to all of you, remember, no matter where you live, get in touch with benderconsult.com, because guess what, everyone? It's a whole new world. A whole new world. You can work from home. You can work from where you are. Work from the moon. That's right. Work. Now you have me saying it. I'll be telling this to everyone. Hey, Mick said work from the moon. That's about what it is too. Well, Mick, I want to, I want to thank you and Christina for being with, with me today and with all of our listeners. Remember what I said, listeners. You can easily on demand get this podcast. You can see what a lively show this was. So you need to share this with other people, people with disabilities and businesses, both. You need to spread this out. Mick, we end every show with a quote. And today that quote is, the most dangerous phrase is We've always done it this way, said Grace Hopper. This is Joyce Bender, America's Voice, where disability matters, at voiceamerica.com. Talk to you next week.

Voice America would like to thank Thank you for tuning in. Please join us next Tuesday at 11 AM Pacific time and 2 PM Eastern time for another installment of Disability Matters right here on the Voice America Variety Channel. We are the leader in live internet talk radio. VoiceAmerica.com.