Larry Kleinman: Highmark Health Hires People with Disabilities

Welcome to Disability Matters with your host Joyce Bender. All comments, views, and opinions expressed on the show are solely those of the host, guests, and callers. Now the host of Disability Matters, here's Joyce Bender.

Welcome everyone, this is Joyce Bender from Disability Matters. So excited to be with you today as we continue to celebrate Highmark Month. Um, and I'm gonna tell you in a minute why, but we're also celebrating the 30th anniversary of Bender Consulting Services. Think about that. 30 years, 30 years ago, I founded Bender Consulting Services, and since that time, I have found employment for thousands of people with disabilities. I have this radio show for now 22 years. I travel around the world with the State Department. And you know what? And I founded the Bender Leadership Academy. All one decision, one company, one man. So In 1995, I met with the CEO of Blue Cross of Western Pennsylvania before it became Highmark— became Highmark while Bill Lowry was the CEO. I said, Bill, I have this dream. I want to start a company that provides employment for people with disabilities in a technical area. Why? The amount of people working at that time with disabilities, maybe 20%. That's how terrible it was. But I knew what the heck difference would it make if you're in a wheelchair, you know, working at a keyboard, or if you're blind, there's technology, you know, accessible technology. And I said, so here's my request. I will hire 6 people. You pay me an hourly rate and they will be here as subcontractors. I'll pay the salary and benefits. You pay me an hourly rate, not for 1 month, not for 2 months, not for 1 year, but for 3 years. Now, I got to tell you, Over the past 30 years, very few companies could I walk into and say, "Hey, would you bring on 6 people with disabilities on contract and keep them on contract 3 years?" They would say, "Let me go to procurement. Let me go to legal." You know, this would go on and on, and then nothing would happen. But Highmark, it took Bill one day to say yes. But here's what's more amazing. When he retired, he took me to lunch to meet the incoming CEO, John Brouse, and said to John Brouse, you know, there's some initiatives I want to keep going, and this with Bender is one of them. And of course he did. And then John Brouse took me to meet Kim Milani, and then Kim Milani took me to meet Bill Winkenwerder, and now I'm working with the great David Holmberg. Think about that, though. All those CEOs since 1995. I mean, it's not like Bill left and then this all went away. I mean, it has been ongoing. And that is why for my 30th anniversary, I wanted to start the year with Highmark Month, which brings me to my partner and esteemed colleague, the EVP over all human resources at Highmark and friend of people with disabilities. I hope you heard what I said. He's over all human resources, which means employment. He is the real deal. I think so highly of him. Welcome to the show, Larry Kleinman.

Thank you, Joyce. Glad to be here with you. And it's, it's really exciting to be here, uh, on the 30th anniversary. That's really fascinating. That's great.

Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much. Um, well, Larry, we are now heard in— used to be 17 countries, now it's over 137 countries. It's amazing what has happened in a short, very short time period. And a special shout out, by the way, to my friends in Brazil and South Korea. And a special shout out to Yoshiko Dart, who I think the world of. But my sponsor and the lead sponsor for years of this show is none other than Highmark. Just another example of what you do. But these listeners around the world, a lot of times people say, wow, that person was great. Could you tell me more about them? So now I ask everyone, Hey, share your story. We all know, you know, you're the EVP at Highmark and my partner, by the way, you know, whenever we're working on employment. But like, where did you— what state did you grow up in? Where did you go to school? And why and how did you begin your career in human resources?

Well, it's a good question, Joyce. A good place to start. May take me a few minutes to take you down that torturous path.

I want to hear it.

All right. Well, I grew up in the Northeast between here and Pittsburgh and New York City and, uh, went to college upstate New York at Ithaca College. Um, and interestingly, when I graduated, um, I wanted to work in radio, um, on the business side, not, uh, not as like an announcer or something. And I got a job here in Pittsburgh. I tried New York first and Everybody told me that's not where you start your career, that's where you end your career. You gotta start in a smaller market. So I came to Pittsburgh, within a couple weeks I was working at a local radio station selling advertising. So I tell people my job, my first job was to sell air. God, because that's really what it was. And, um, I did that for a little while and then I got the bug to start my own business. So I started a business here in Pittsburgh, ran it for about 3 or 4 years, then sold that. It was a penny candy business, so it was kind of a retail setup. And after I sold that, I wasn't sure what to do next. And so someone recommended that I go talk to this woman who was a career counselor. And so she gave me a battery of tests, um, and she basically came back and said, you have a lot of attributes of a good management consultant. Here's 4 or 5 names of people that I know in that business. And call them and try to network. Little did I know, about 3 weeks later, I was a management consultant. I started working, advising companies on how to improve their performance. And that was a turning point in my career because I loved it. I did that for about 8 years, where I worked with large global companies, General Electric, GTE, Unilever, Ford, and others. And this was back in the times when you had big consultancies like McKinsey or maybe Bain back then. And what they did was they would do a study of, here's your competitive landscape, here's what you need to do differently to compete and win. And then they would say good luck to the CEO and they'd leave, take their fees and go. So I was one of the firms that had to work with that company for a year, sometimes longer, to actually implement all those strategies. So what I learned over 8 years was how do you actually change companies to improve? And I loved it. But after 8 years, my wife and I had had our third child, and I was only home on the weekends for 8 years. So she said, you got to— I need you to be home more. So, so long story short, my last, my last consulting project was with a company named Bechtel Dickinson in New Jersey. And towards the end, they asked me if I'd be willing to become an employee of theirs. And long story short, I said, sure, that'd be great. And on the first day of that job, Joyce, I kid you not, I go in, I'm sitting down with the president, and he said, hey, by the way, do you remember John? And I said, yeah, John, good, nice to see you. And John was the head of HR. And the president said, that's good because half your job is gonna be what you've been doing for us, and the other half is HR. And I was flabbergasted cuz I didn't know anything about HR. I didn't have a clue what HR did. Really. And so he was a good salesperson. He said, hey, look, this will, this will be the best thing for your career because the things that you know how to do, which is work with executives, changing the company, work with leadership, those are things that our HR function aspires to do. And so you could be a good sort of mentor and role model for them. And I said, yeah, that's great. But the other half of the day, instead of changing supply chain globally or changing the sales and marketing approaches around the world, with all these division presidents and country presidents, I had to do like HR things. So all of a sudden I'm doing benefits enrollment, I do a little bit of compensation, I do a little bit of recruiting. It was the strangest job I've ever had. Um, and then, you know, it worked out really well because I did that for several years. And then, um, uh, so I learned HR backwards, Joyce. Most people who end up in my kind of role worked in HR forever. And they start as a benefits person, a recruiter, a compensation specialist, a generalist, and over time, you know, they go through the ranks if that's what they choose. Um, but I sort of fell into it, you know, fairly early in my career, but I didn't know anything about HR, so I learned it backwards. And after a couple years, I got a call from Planters Peanuts, which was a division of Nabisco in New Jersey, and they said, hey, we're looking for a head of HR. And I said, okay, that sounds interesting. Do I have to do all this other benefit stuff? It's nice. Now we have shared services for that. But, um, so long story short, that was my first real head of HR job, and I've been running HR functions ever since. That was probably '96, maybe '96, something like that. And so what I would tell the HR people that worked with me was If, if you understand the company's strategy and if you understand the competitive landscape, you can take a look at the four walls of the company, metaphorically speaking. And if you know how to change the company to win and compete, you could be a— you could be very successful with a career in HR. Because in HR, if you're the head of HR, you have what I call your hands on those levers. You have a lot of levers to help the company move and change and adapt to be competitive and better. You know, you get to— you have a, you have a role in who gets what jobs, who gets promoted, who doesn't get promoted, how much money people make, the incentive plans, who gets into either carrots or sticks, who gets incentives and who doesn't. So you have a lot of the, the levers to change companies at your disposal if that's what you choose to do. And so it's, it's been a long, uh, unique path So I apologize if that's a longer answer, but it is.

Oh, no.

It's not a traditional path by any stretch.

I'm glad you told that story because I always tell people, change can come, be flexible. And look what ended up happening for you over the long run. How did you get to Highmark?

Well, I was working in a healthcare company in Knoxville, Tennessee., and a recruiter actually ran into me and asked me about Highmark. I think he was interested because I had a— I had lived in Pittsburgh a couple times, and I said, I'm familiar with— I'm a little bit familiar with Highmark. But the interesting thing for me, Joyce, at that time, um, that was late 2014. I'm just starting my 11th year here, and back then Highmark was at an inflection point. They had just acquired, um, the hospital system Allegheny Health Network. And that was a distressed asset that had to get fixed. But in my background, I had worked at techno— SAP. So I had been in two different technology companies. I had been in retail companies and run a retail business. I had worked in hospital systems. And so the diversity of my background matched Highmark's diversity really well. Because we had VisionWorks at the time. So it was a retail chain of eyeglasses that manufactured and sold eyeglasses. Hospital system, which I had already been involved with, the insurance business that I had been closely involved with, a technology company where we actually sell large outsourced deals, billion-dollar deals. So in some cases, that diversity of experience might have worked against me. In this case, I knew in my, I knew in my, my gut that this was going to be a good match. So that was number one. Number two, when I met David Holmberg and he and I spent a lot of time getting to know each other. I knew that was going to be a good match. Um, and I also knew that Highmark was the kind of company, you know, had the culture and the aptitude to get through a difficult period. So that's when I said, absolutely, this is going to be a good fit. So it was a— it was through a recruiter, um, that that happened.

Well, thank goodness for that recruiter. And yeah, and they sent you to the right place, that's for sure.

Yeah.

Um, About Highmark, let's talk about your area. Like, how large is your department? You know, I know there have— there are so many different areas from talent programs to benefits. What is it like? What's your area like?

Well, I have sort of a unique role in that running HR is pretty straightforward. There's probably 300, 350 folks in HR, but I also started and have been running our internal consulting group. That's another 50, 70 folks. I oversee security and facilities, travel. There's a lot of different things that, that are sort of in my portfolio these days. So probably, I don't know, 700, 800, 900 people altogether. I'm not sure.

Wow. Well, yeah. And you're across the board involved in strategy building for Highmark at the across the board at the highest levels. So that is quite, uh, 900 people. Wow, that's a lot of people.

Well, Joyce, that's, that's 900 people out of about 48,000.

Yeah, I can't believe how big Highmark got.

Yeah, so we have, call it 38,000 in the US and another 10,000 or 11,000 in different parts of the world. So we're— we've really been the last 5, 6, 7 years become much more of a global company where we can operate 7 days a week, 24 hours a day. So it's changed quite a bit in my 11 years.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, to me too. Remember, I knew it when you were Blue Cross of Western Pennsylvania and small.

Yeah.

I even remember where you were located and it was small. And when you went from that small building to Fifth Avenue Place, I said, wow, something big happened here. And then you just have exploded in growth ever, ever since that time, which is so fantastic. But what I love about this company is that it's one thing to talk about hiring people with disabilities or strategies for hiring people with disabilities, or how could we incent people to hire people with disabilities? But you do hire people with disabilities, and I want all of our listeners anywhere around the world, wherever you are, this company is the real deal. There are no other Highmarks. There are no other Highmarks that do this hiring that they do. Sadly, but it's the truth. Every time I talk to someone in the disability community, they'll say, "Wow, I wish there were more Highmarks." And Hi, Mark. 30 years. I got started with them. They stuck by me all these years, still stay with me and hire people ongoing. And by the way, many times people call us and it's for like project managers or AI, you know, all levels. But they reach out to me. I don't always go to them.. And it has been just ongoing, never stopped. So, you know, so successful. And Larry— David told me, David Holmberg, the CEO, that Larry is going to work with you, you know, as we went along through the Highmark 30/30. And now here we are, 35/35. But Larry's the person that's worked with me. Something I have to say, we have these calls, you know, with a few of his staff in HR. Now, you can tell how high level he is, but what— by what we just talked about, do you know he gets on those calls? I mean, that is amazing to me. When I told this story to someone at a conference, they were astounded. I said, oh yeah, Yep, he gets on the calls. He is really passionate about this. But my question is, why do you think Highmark has been committed not 1 year but 30 years? Still is. I mean, that is unusual for, you know, like normally at a company the CEO leaves and sadly with him may go whatever their United Way or whatever their initiatives were, but it has never stopped. Why do you think that is?

Well, I think there's a couple of reasons, Joyce. First and foremost, probably you. You are a force of nature. So, so that's a part of it. I think it just speaks to who we are, who Highmark is, our culture, the values. And so it's important. It's good work. It's important that we do this. It's important for the community. It's important for people with disabilities. You know, what we've learned over 30 years is they're some of the best employees we ever have. They're the most dedicated, loyal, hardworking, and do a great job. So, you know, it's just a— it's something I would say this way, Joyce Bender. It's wrapped with goodness all around because it's just— it's a pleasure to work with some of the folks who have disabilities. And we've had great experience. So there's— I don't see this stopping until the day that Heimark is no longer in existence, which hopefully won't be for a long, long time.

Well, I'm going to tell you, we have an employee that started there like 30 years, 29 years ago, still there in IT. We have many employees over 20 years that are there, that are still there. And there are two reasons. Number one, it's not that they're superheroes. It's that if you have been left out and someone gives you that opportunity, it's like a gift. I mean, it is truly a gift. That's number one. Number two is the environment. Everyone knows how Highmark is a disability-friendly company and provides all the accommodations. You know, it's like I always say, if you go to a company and you're a minority candidate and they say, "Oh, hey, we're all in, we're all in hiring minorities, we're all on board," and you start and you're the only Black person there, you're going to think they're all in? When did they get all in? Whereas if you're at Highmark, you're going to see people with disabilities. You're going to know, wow, look at all these people with disabilities that work here. And I do think that's the second reason is because of how, you know, I'm all about no pity, paycheck's not pity, and Highmark treats people equally in all ways. And I think that is, but still nonetheless, it's the culture that somehow was created a long time ago and permeated, you know, didn't just stay at the top, but permeated that is so incredibly disability-friendly. And I have to say, Larry, how highly I think of you. And I want all my listeners to know that he really, really is supportive of getting people hired. And you know what? That's where the rubber meets the road. This is why I tell people, every day when you go to work, you should be grateful. That you have a job every day, because there are millions of people out there blind or in wheelchairs or deaf that would give anything to have that same opportunity at a wonderful company like Highmark. As one person said to me, I am proud now every day to say, "And I work at Highmark," versus, "I don't work." So, you know, I just think that it is so wonderful. And also, as you know, David Holmberg, the Highmark CEO, came up with the idea of the Highmark 30/30. And even though we pass it every year, who would ever dream? Here we are, 35/35. It seems like just the other day that we started this. And the whole way through, you have been my partner. Which never will I forget. But you are so dedicated and so on board. You know, why is that? So that other businesses listening here hear your reason.

Well, again, it's similar to some comments I made earlier, Joyce. I think, you know, we've had such a great experience and it's fulfilling to help people. Um, you know, get a hand up, not a handout, and give them an opportunity. So that's, that's fulfilling. Uh, the other thing, you know, and, and I've told you this before, I don't know if you remember, it's probably about 25, 30 years ago, I was very interested in studying what made people successful. And I went about and I read a number of books. I took like a year and I read books and I would take index cards and I would jot down my note, my, my takeaways. And I, I still have those index cards today. They're, they're pretty dated. And the binder clip is before laptops. The binder clip is the same one. It's still pretty rusty. Um, but when I learned a number of things when I studied successful people, but the number one theme was that people who were disadvantaged in whatever form or fashion tended to be the most successful people because they had to make the sacrifices. They had to work harder. They had to outperform people. And so there's always been something that I took away from that that said, you know, if you started, whether it's a disability, whether you were just economically disadvantaged, uh, you can go through a list of, of those types of attributes, but those people, uh, had a higher probability of being successful than others if they figured out how to get a start. So part of it is just the culture here. Part of it is, is so, it's so fulfilling to see it. And then part of it is, uh, it sort of came out of an intellectual interest a long time ago that, that has never left me in terms of what I took away from it.

I still remember those cards, those index cards. Yep, I still remember them.

There you go.

I remember them. I mean, he showed me those, so you all know, not long after he started. So he's had— how long have you had those? Now that I think about it, it's somewhere between 25 and 30 years.

I still keep them in my briefcase today. I used to read them every morning. I haven't done that in quite a while because I remember most of them, but, um, but I still keep them on my briefcase every day.

That is so— yeah, I know, I remember, I remember. Because one day I was going to say, do you have those in your briefcase? Actually, I was going to ask you later on, so I'm glad that you do still have them in your briefcase. Wow, that says something, uh, about you. And when you studied that, I think also that when people are disadvantaged, they have incredible drive. Did you notice that when you read about people that are more successful?

That's exactly right, that they have sort of an edge, a drive that propels them for what I would consider to be obvious reasons. I mean, if you're, if you're a person who had a lot of advantages in life, you may not have the same drive and desire to push through the tough times, to respond to the tough times. And so if you're a person with disabilities, there's no easy day, any day. And so I think that's a, that's a really good, um, it's a good lesson to be, to be learned.

Yeah. And gratitude, being grateful, because being grateful and having that attitude. You know, I always say to people, whoever you hire, you're going to spend more time with them than with your family. But boy, you really live that. So, you know, who wants to be around negative people, right? Who wants to be around people that are complaining? You know, you, you want to be around people that are positive and grateful. And I'm sure in some of those cards that you wrote. But right now, we're going to get ready to go to break. If you just joined us, We are talking to Larry Kliman, Executive Vice President and Chief Human Capital Officer at Highmark Health. And we'll be right back. Don't go away.

At Highmark, we believe what makes us different makes us better. Our differences broaden our perspectives and foster diverse skills which complement each other, creating a stronger and more vibrant workforce. It's this belief that earned us recognition by the USBLN and the American Association of People with Disabilities as a 2014 Disability Equality Index Best Place to Work. So we'll continue to celebrate diverse individuals because inclusion benefits us all. To find out more, or visit highmark.com. Since 1985, Bender Consulting Services has served as a national leader in advancing employment of people with disabilities, including veterans with disabilities, with private sector companies and federal government agencies. Bender assists customers with achieving their diversity and workforce inclusion initiatives by tapping into a talent pool of individuals seeking professional positions, including those in the STEM fields. In addition, Bender Services include disability employment consulting, training, and technology accessibility through their high-tech line of service. For more information, please visit www.benderconsult.com. Everyone has unique abilities, and with ABLE NOW, individuals with disabilities are able to save money while maintaining certain benefits such as Medicaid. ABLE NOW is a tax-advantaged savings program specifically designed for people with disabilities. Open an account online today and start saving for the things that are important to you. To learn if you or someone you know is eligible, visit ablenow.com. ABLE NOW is administered by Virginia529. Are you currently receiving SSDI or SSI and wanting to work? Did you know there is a free Social Security program called Ticket to Work to help you try work without risking your benefits? My Employment Options is an authorized SSA Employment Network specializing in work-at-home and local job placement in 47 states. Our clients receive a personal counselor to help find the best job fit and a staff-certified benefits counselor for help with Ticket to Work protections. Ready to try working? Apply for free job placement help at myemploymentoptions.com. Follow Voice America at facebook.com/voiceamerica for juicy updates. Updates from your favorite radio shows and podcasts.

You're listening to Disability Matters.

Now please welcome back the host of Disability Matters.

Here's Joyce Bender. Hi everyone, welcome back. If you just tuned in, we're talking to Larry Kleinman, the Chief Human Capital Officer and Executive Vice President at Highmark Health, and my friend, a person dedicated to the employment of people with disabilities as we are celebrating this month, Highmark Month. And as you know, we started the year with David Holmberg, um, and I do that every year actually, but this year the whole month was leadership at Highmark and I will have to say, Larry, that you would agree with me that David is really unbelievably dedicated to the employment of people with disabilities.

Yeah, he is for sure. To your point, you know, his predecessors all were, um, committed and supportive, uh, but David is especially committed and supportive.

He is.

He's just a remarkable leader to begin with, so It's an honor to be able to work with them.

Well, I remember when I went to meet with him for— I meet for breakfast, holiday breakfast, forever with the Highmark CEO. And I usually go to their office and then into an area, you know, off the conference room for breakfast. And this time My executive assistant came in and said, okay, I called about where to have breakfast and they said Kelly O's. And I said, Carol, there's no way the CEO of Highmark, David Holmberg, said I want to go to Kelly O's Diner. Now, so everyone knows I love diners, but I would not picture the CEO of Highmark saying he wanted to go to this diner. I was wrong. And when he came in, I said, he said, you were surprised. I said, yes. Why? I said, look around. Do you see any CEOs here having breakfast? He said, yeah, good point. But that shows what David's like right there. Not, oh Joyce, I'll meet you. I'll get you in at the Duquesne Club or, you know, Rivers Club or whatever. Kelly O's. And I'll bet that doesn't surprise you, although he's told this story many times how I didn't believe that he really wanted to go there. But does that surprise you?

Not at all. And for those outside of Pittsburgh or outside the U.S., it's just a very ordinary diner. There's nothing fancy about it. He does that all the time. Like, he had some press, some people from a magazine want to interview him. He met him at Ritter's Diner. He, he does that a lot. It's just, uh, we were talking about inflation yesterday, I think it was, and he said, yeah, over the weekend I went to Five Guys and I bought 2 burgers and a Coke or something, and it was $30. But this is a guy, you know, he doesn't have to go to fancy places. He's just as authentic and down to earth as you could ever find.

He is. He really is. The other thing is When I would go to a CEO or at any company or anyone C-suite level, and I was going to talk about them continuing working, hiring people with disabilities, you know, I never know what's going to happen. And I, although with Highmark, I'm always pretty sure it's going to be okay, but nonetheless, I barely get seated and David looks at me and says, Joyce, where are all the wheelchairs? I don't see them in the lobby. I don't see service dogs. What's going on? Do we have a problem somewhere? If we have a problem, you have to tell me. And I said, you know what, David, if I could get that on video and shoot that across the country, it would— no other CEO has ever said that to me. Never. No one. Not even close. Not even close.

We do have wheelchairs running around, and we do have a couple service animals running around.

Yeah, I think he went— meant he wanted more. You already have them, and you have more. You have more than one service dog, and you have more than one wheelchair, and you have people with quadriplegia. I mean, I'm telling you. Hi, Mark. You know, I know you know McMalik.

I do.

Yeah, see how we're smiling?

I'm gonna be with him at 3 o'clock.

Oh, okay. Well, you have to tell him we talked about him. And he is the CEO of NGIN, which is a subsidiary or owned by Highmark that is the— I'll say the technology division for Highmark. And Mick Malek is the most wonderful person. And, you know, he's always joking when I have him on the radio show. I always tell him, okay, don't say anything you shouldn't say, Mick. I mean, he's always— but when I need help, he'll say, do you need the hammer? That's him. He's the hammer. Yeah. But he has always, you know, been there supportive. But I want to tell you this story. This one employee of mine was one day going down in Pittsburgh in Moon Township, and there was a girl standing on the— car pulled over and a girl standing on the side of the road where the driver is talking, which means Randy did not see the car coming, and he was on a motorcycle. And it was a terrible accident and he became a person with quadriplegia. This means he needs a personal assistant to use the bathroom, feed him, like other people that Highmark has hired, like Jamie Protho. So anyway, he, he needed a job, and I had told him about Highmark. He got hired. First by WellPoint, and then I told him about Highmark when he was unemployed. And so Highmark, you know, interviewed him and said, yes, we want to hire him. But he could not go in person because of the personal assistant. Now, he could go 1 or 2 days a week, but that was, you know, a problem. When I called Mick and told him this story, his answer was, and what's the problem? So Highmark hired him and he became like one of their top, you know, technical people. But that's what I mean about what's different about Highmark. But I'm with Larry. We're talking about David. Meeting up there and David says, I have this idea. What if I hire 30 people with disabilities from you to celebrate the 30th anniversary? And guess what came? COVID. COVID came. And oh my goodness, what are we going to do? So I'll tell you what we did. Larry, by my side, helped find positions. And guess what, folks? 30 people were hired, and then it's continued on like that. Now this year is my 30th anniversary and the 35th anniversary of the Americans with Disabilities Act that is getting tremendous PR, being that it's 35. And I want you all to know that you're going to be hearing about HIMAR constantly. Larry knows, he always says I'm their best PR agent. But I am gonna be telling everyone everywhere, because we need, especially right now, we need more Highmarks. But I'm telling you, the people they hire are not just at the entry level, they're all the way to the top. But what did you think about that during COVID hiring those 30 people?

Well, you know, Joyce, I wasn't really sure at the time if we could deliver on that, because the whole world changed for everybody. I mean, us as well as every other business. So it was a very confusing, odd time. You know, you go from one day everybody's working 5 days a week in the office to 2 days later, no one's in the offices. So there was a lot of confusion, but we still were hiring at a pretty good pace. And so we continued to work through it. And since the, you know, 2020, when the first year we had COVID, you know, all employers have had, you know, ebbs and flows of hiring more people, less people, um, different things going on from an economic standpoint. But we haven't wavered. We've, we, we set an aggressive goal in the second year of 31 for 31, and then the second, the third year, 32 for 32. And, and each year we've, we've been able to exceed that that target. But, um, and I'm pretty comfortable that we'll, we'll do 35, uh, for the 35th anniversary this year. And it is tighter. It's a tighter economic environment that we operate in, in healthcare. Um, but I know that we'll find a way.

Yep, we always find a way. Uh, Highmark always finds a way. And you know, I didn't know about your healthcare background, uh, Larry. Somehow I missed on that. Didn't know you had that background. So you especially also being a management consultant, have seen so much and so much change in healthcare. Highmark is using digital technology, but they're doing so much. I mean, would you agree healthcare has changed drastically?

Yeah, it, it has, and it will continue to change, I think. You know, everybody around the business world today talks about generative AI and the implications, and I think it's still very early in that game. I mean, we talk with the big players, Microsoft and Google and Salesforce and others, and it's still pretty early in this revolution. But I do think there's going to be sort of— I do think the pace is going to accelerate now. The first year, the hype was way ahead of reality. This year, I think you're starting to see some use cases where people are actually doing interesting things with generative AI. I think the next 2 or 3 years, it's going to really pick up. And so the implication is, from a, from an employer standpoint, is how do we prepare our workforce for that? What do we do to train, hire, educate, redeploy, all those kinds of things in light of, at a pace that's equal to or greater than the technological advances. Because if you're waiting for it to, to become real and you're, you're lagging that, you're going to get swung around. So I, I do think we have to do more of that. Now we're doing things in the generative AI space, um, it's more in the non-clinical areas at this point. I think the potential for, uh, things to happen in radiology and other parts of clinical areas are even more dramatic, but I think it's going to be a slow take-up because your margin for error is very small. In other words, if you have a bad outcome, uh, which it's still early in that technology, um, that could be really bad. So we're going to be very conservative in the clinical areas and more aggressive in the non-clinical areas, but we'll continue to see a lot of changes. Absolutely.

And I am happy to tell you that we have candidates with disabilities with AI through the PhD level. So I've told everyone, and I'll tell people with disabilities, even at a young school age, anything you can do to learn something about AI, because it's going to be here. And as Larry said, it's going to explode because everyone is going to be looking for people with those skills and with that background. And I mean, I've read about how AI could get to the place where it's predictive of, you know, if you're going to have a disease or what's going to happen. I believe there are so many great things that are going to happen. But do you think— do you think at Highmark that that will happen like at AHN, that it will have an impact positive impact?

I do. I think, I think we're already seeing evidence of that. Um, we're trying to be careful. We don't want to have a bad outcome because the technology still is early, and so you still have to have a human at some point checking things. You can't just go full autonomously on some of these things. So, so we're being careful, but, but I do think it's going to continue to come on at a large rate. So, um, it'll affect our workforce.

Yeah, one example of how things took off during COVID telehealth started like with, with Highmark on a small scale, and then wow, not only did it take off, it's, you know, still going. Uh, did you see that, Larry, after COVID, a big takeoff with telehealth?

We did. We saw, we were probably, you know, in terms of percentage of visits was probably single digits before COVID We probably got up to as high as 25, 27% telehealth. And then once things settled back in and started to drop back down, it's still lower than I think it should be. And particularly in healthcare, at least, um, there's a lot of challenges in the rural areas. The smaller independent hospitals that don't have access to the same capital, the same equipment, same physicians, and those kinds of things. And so I think you'll see telehealth continue to start to grow faster again because some of those smaller hospitals have no choice. They can't afford to compete, uh, without using things like telehealth. So I think we've seen some ebbs and flows, which is— in one, in one way you could think about is that's pretty predictable. But I think you'll continue to see a slow climb in telehealth.

Yeah, I know. And you know, for people with disabilities, this is so wonderful because as you just said, you're in a wheelchair, you know, people had a harder time getting there and didn't want to go there all the time. Epilepsy, many people with epilepsy do not drive. Right. So, and people with mental health disabilities felt uncomfortable sometimes going out. Now that we have telehealth, that's great for all, for people with disabilities. I mean, that was a big, big positive move for people with disabilities.

So, Joyce, let me give you an example. This is a real example. We've invested in a technology, we call it SWORD, but it's for mental health. And the statistics around it are pretty, pretty alarming. Um, uh, most people are aware we have a mental health crisis in the, in the U.S., and it takes about 22 days to get an appointment for those who are willing and want an appointment, to get a face-to-face appointment, on average, 22 days.

Wow.

With this SWORD capability and using telehealth We can get people in in less than 2 days. Now, if you put that in, in human terms, a lot of people who get to the point where they have mental illnesses, where they actually raise their hand and say, I want to talk to someone, usually it's— they're not in a good place. And so going from 22 days to less than 2 saves lives.

Oh, absolutely. Because just as you said, for the person to say, I mean, there's such stigma involved with mental health that most people— I always say when I go to a company, you do know you have people with disabilities already working here. They have bipolar disorder, depression. It's just they don't want to tell anyone because of the stigma attached. That's right. And veterans, veterans with disabilities, 22 a day take their life. Yep, that's right. Something like that is saving lives. Wow, that's a powerful thing. That is a powerful thing. So, Larry, um, you are an awesome person, but someone had to have this impact on you, or a business person, or personal, in history, whatever it is. Uh, who would you say has been your role model?

Um, I laugh, Joyce, because I've had different people that I could use as examples throughout different parts of my life. Um, you know, today people like David Holmberg, from a business standpoint, are inspirational, a great role model. Um, my wife's a good role model. This is a woman who's in private banking. She's been with the same bank for 35 or 36 years, and she's a senior vice president. And if you know anything about the history of the banking business, 35 years ago, there were, there were no women at the top of the house.

That's true.

And so, yes, to, to watch what she's done professionally is, is remarkable. And it's a good— she's a good role model as well. So it— different, different people come into your life at different points in time, and I try to look at anyone who's doing good things and say, what can I learn from them? So different folks at different times, Joyce.

You have to make sure your wife listens to this show. You're going to be getting all kinds of accolades when she hears this show.

Well, she's a good role model. She's not easy, by the way. She can be challenging because she likes things a certain way, but she's— it's remarkable what she's done.

Yeah. Well, as you said, back then, I mean, very few women were even in banking other than a teller.

That's right.

Other than a teller. So, Larry, when you look over the past years that you've— you said you've been at Highmark 11 years. What are some of the things you're the proudest of accomplishing?

You know, Joyce, there's a, there's a lot of things. I mean, I probably should answer with a list, but probably the most important— this is one that David and I talk about a lot. Which is whenever we're done, we want to leave it better than it was when we got here. And I think we're doing that. The company's better, it's stronger, it's bigger. Uh, the next generation of leaders will be better. And so that's, that's kind of the legacy that you want to leave behind. There's— I could give you a whole list of things that I think went really well. But at the end of the day, it's the relationships and it's that the company is stronger and in a better position.

Mm-hmm. Well, that's a big thing. Yeah. And a great accomplishment. And they're so lucky to have you, Larry.

Well, thank you.

They are lucky. And so are we. And so are people with disabilities. Now, if you've been listening to this show and you're thinking, Oh, I want someone else. I knew I wish this other person heard it. Here's what you do. Go to social media, whether that's Spotify or Amazon. And I mean, and go to YouTube. And you can, you can hear this show or go straight to YouTube. But this is a show you should share because you know what else? It gives inspiration to young people. On what it takes to be successful in the world of work. So, remember, go to YouTube or find this show through social media, Disability Matters with Joyce Bender, with Larry Kleinman from Highmark Health. Well, Larry, thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you, Joyce, for having me. It's been fun.

Yes, it's always fun with you, Larry. And we end every show with a quote. Today, that quote just is so fitting because of Larry's career. That is work. Work gives us dignity, says Tony Coelho. How true it is. This is Joyce Bender, America's Voice, where disability matters at Voice America. Talk to you all next week, and in the words of Mary Brooker, remember, when you go out today, choose joy.

Voice America would like to thank you for tuning in. Please join us next Tuesday at 11:00 AM Pacific Time and 2:00 PM Eastern Time for another installment of Disability Matters right here on the Voice America Variety Channel.

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