Mercer, Libengood, Beggs: North Way Christian Communities' Goals

Welcome to Disability Matters with your host Joyce Bender. All comments, views, and opinions expressed on the show are solely those of the host, guest, and callers. Now the host of Disability Matters, here's Joyce Bender.

Hi everyone in the United States and around the world. First the United States, This then around the world. is, yes, my 21st year. 21st year. How about that, Perry, my news anchor?

Long time, Joyce.

I know, 21 years on Voice America. Do you know why? Because of you, because of my great listeners in the United States and by the way, around the world. Special shout out to Richard Roberts, my close friend who is in Brazil. But when I met Richard, it was in South Korea when I went there with the State Department. Then when I went to Japan, he was a diplomat there. And like, he is just so awesome and such a great disability rights leader, as is Gangyong Cho. Hello in South Korea. I hope everything is going well. And to all my friends in Indonesia, Panama, Kazakhstan, just too many to remember. But I love all of you. And why I say this is we have listeners from Australia to Saudi Arabia to Germany. By the way, Germany, you rock, man. We have a really big listening audience in Germany, Austria, all around, all around the world, over 37 countries with listeners now. I want to thank you. I want to tell you what you're doing. And for example, in Saudi Arabia, one listener doesn't matter. One person can make a difference. What you have to do is go to any English-speaking venue, whether it's a radio station or some disability rights group or just a friend of yours. And tell them about the show because we have to spread the news around the world that people with disabilities count. You know, in Asia, there is pervasive shame for people with disabilities, period. I don't know if I've ever told you this or not, but as you know, I live with epilepsy, and in South Korea, the Wives, if they have epilepsy, do not tell their husbands and hide the medication until he's not there because there's frequently divorce when the spouse finds this out. And in Haiti, there are still places in Haiti if you have epilepsy where they burn a little mark on your forehead. And for people with mental health disabilities, I mean, it's terrible. It's terrible. But we can change that. And that is why I want you, no matter what country you're in, to tell everyone else about this show. And Yoshiko Dart, I love you. A special shout out to Yoshiko. Yoshiko, you are just awesome. And by the way, to Yoshiko and everyone else, I wanted to give you a gift. Over Christmas and Hanukkah. What could I do? You know what I'm doing? I'm replaying a show with Judy Heumann and Judy talking about her book Being Heumann. And as you know, around the world, you too, everyone knows Judy. You know, Judy was the greatest disability rights leader. When she died, I mean, I was devastated. We were really good friends. And in her book Being Heumann, at back when she acknowledged all these disability rights leaders and included me. I was overwhelmed. Just overwhelmed. And there's a movie out on Netflix called Crip Camp about Judy and her friends. So everyone misses her so much, I'm replaying the show. So listeners, tell everyone. I'm going to get it out on social media, but make sure you tell everyone. And hi, Mark. Thank you. Hi, Mark, for being the lead sponsor of this show. What a great company. What great leadership. And speaking of great leadership, oh, I'm so excited because I have 3 great leaders from Northway Christian Community headquartered in Wexford. But of course, we will talk about how many locations. It's amazing. What has happened at that church from the beginning. And it's just so wonderful. But these three are also friends of mine. I love them. And they are an example that women can be leaders in church. And that's what is so awesome. So I'm going to start, if you don't mind. Here's what happens. Listeners call and say, oh, that person's really great, but I don't know that much about them. So now I ask my guests to talk about themselves first. So if you would introduce yourself, why you decided to become a spiritual leader at Northway as your vocation, and even like where you grew up, just a little bit about yourself. And we'll start with the queen, Amanda Biggs.

Joyce, you're the best. It's great to be here. I am from Pittsburgh originally, grew up in the South Hills, and went to college, uh, fairly locally, and then really felt a call into ministry. And God had opened doors that used giftings that I had recognized early in my life and just kept opening doors. And so I've been at Northway almost 17 years. I—

and go ahead.

Oh no, I was just gonna say I'm currently the executive director of communications. And And I teach on our teaching team.

And that means she's like a pastor up on this— up on the stage giving a sermon. I don't know why you explain it that way. You're one of the pastors that get up there, one of the leaders that get up there and give a sermon. You're in the rotation. And I'm always trying to think, okay, is this her week or not? When is her week coming up? And you are A great, great, great leader, speaker. If you want to go hear a great message, you got to hear Amanda Biggs. I mean, she is like phenomenal. I love it. I love it every time. I try to see her beforehand and give her the little wave of support before she gets up there. And by the way, if you're thinking, oh yeah, is this one of these women that just said one day, okay, I can't do anything else, I'm going to do this. No, she was going to be an attorney. See, I know some little secrets about her. She was going to be an attorney. So, and we're so lucky that we have her up there now, as we are Mary. Mary, my friend, my first friend. And I cannot talk about this. I could not talk about this, as you all know, for a long time. But Mary was also a dear friend of Mary Brocker. So, Mary, I love you, Mary. Mary is the get up and cheer and say amen leader at Northway. So, Mary, let's hear a little bit about you.

Okay, thanks, Joyce. Honored to be here. Um, so honored to be your friend. And to, um, so as far as why I decided to become a leader, I don't know that I decided that. It wasn't really a decision. It is more of a calling. I sensed early on in my journey when I started taking my faith a little bit more seriously that I would kind of find my full sense of purpose and even passion in the things of God. So I think I began to sense it more and more as my kids were growing older. I mean, I started out in ministry early on, and then as my kids were growing, I just spent some time with them. And when the opportunity came about at Northway, um, You know, for me it was an easy yes because honestly and just very simply, there's nothing more that I want to give my whole heart to than Jesus and helping people to know who he is. So, you know, again, it's not like, what's my job? It's like, who am I meant to be and who did God make me to be? And that's, that's where I find myself.

Uh, and Mary, you're, you're also outstanding. And Mary You know I have the gift of prophecy, don't you?

I do indeed.

Because I remember when I told Mary, Mary, never go anywhere because I see something happening here with you. And that something did happen here with her, and she is the originator of the well. So I'm going to take a moment, Mary, and let you tell everyone what that is and how it got the name.

Okay, well, The Well is our women's ministry at Northway, and it's, it's sort of far beyond. I don't know. The Lord just shared with us one day that women needed a place to come and encounter God and just do life together in a little bit more deeper way than we do on a Sunday. We spend time together hanging out, eating after, but we have some really amazing time inside the church experience, inside the actual event. We just kind of let the Holy Spirit— and you'll love this, Joyce Bender— we kind of let the Holy Spirit move, and we have great speakers and amazing times of prayer. And that's one piece of my ministry at Northway, but it is one of my favorites. And so I'm honored to be in that role. But my current role there is Pastor of Prayer. And so that just means, like, my formal title is Building a Culture of Prayer at Northway, but basically it means praying for God's vision as to how Northway can become like more intentional about being a people of prayer. Because Jesus said, you know, my house will be a house of prayer, and I believe that. I believe it for our house, and I believe it for other churches. And it doesn't mean we just pray a lot. It means that we ask God, um, you know, it's just, you know how a lot of people think of prayer as I'm going to ask God for stuff and pray my list? Well, prayer is so much more than that. It's about Honoring God first and deepening our relationship with him. And I believe as we grow with God, we can believe, we can get to know what's on his heart, um, and impact our families, our city, our world. But that all begins first in the place of prayer. So just helps us to align our heart with God, um, gives us, allows God to empower us to do what he asks us to do so that we can become a people of love. So that's my role at Northway.

And you know, I just want to say that if you are listening and you are thinking, "Oh yeah, this is a bunch of those far-out Christian people that cannot relate, and why? I have a disability. What can they do?" In addition to the most important thing which Mary just talked about, we do have a group that handles sex trafficking. We do have a group that works with the homeless. And as you well know, mental health disabilities go with so many of those issues. And for people that are not secure with food, food insecurity, we also help them. And we do a lot of what you would view as social-driven, uh, you know, things that— hey, there's this man that did all those things. You know, that man that we're celebrating his birthday, that man, Jesus, that man. So Shannon, uh, welcome to the show. I'm so excited you're on. And how about if you tell everyone a little bit about you and what you do?

Well, thank you, Joyce. It's an honor to be here. Uh, you are a, uh, dear friend and probably one of— probably all three of ours, one of our our biggest cheerleaders. So we appreciate you and having you invite us on your show. So for me, maybe interestingly, I grew up at Northway and so have been there— goodness, we're going to just say like over 40 years. I—

wow.

Yeah. So I have a long history there. My mom was on staff there and my dad was in leadership. So a lot of my story has to do with kind of seeing behind the curtain of leadership from a really young age and getting to see kind of the highs and the lows, the ins and the outs of ministry and the Lord. I'm kind of one of those people who, yeah, like my calling is to say yes to whatever He asks. And so that has led me through a journey of leading students to know, experience, and follow Jesus. And actually internationally, I spent 8 years living in Asia working with students there. So I appreciate your acknowledgement of your international audience because, yeah, this message needs to get out. And then for the last almost 20 years, I've been back on Northway as a member of the staff in a variety of roles, currently sitting on our directional leadership team. And my heart really is and has always been, I think because I've had that glimpse behind the curtain, is to walk alongside leaders in the reality of the highs and lows of ministry and the hardships to really help them be healthy and to, you know, stay connected themselves to Jesus, who is our leader, and to do that in a way that, you know, walks alongside people in a healthy way through all of the kind of highs and lows of ministry.

You know, speaking of that, Mary, you are the first person that I saw wearing this t-shirt, and I thought, what is that? And it said The Chosen. I'm sure many of you listening watch The Chosen, which is the story of Jesus and his disciples and what happens, you know, after that. And although there are things that, you know, maybe a little off, basically the story is on target, although the actor is getting tired of people going up to him saying, 'Can you pray for me? Can you heal me?' And him having to say, 'No, I'm not Jesus. I'm just the actor.' Um, but Mary, how did you— did you see that right from the beginning?

Oh gosh, anybody who's going to tell the story of Jesus, I'm here for it. But I love the way they, um, just made it very real and filled in some biblical blanks, you know, little, little gaps that we don't have in scripture. And I just found it very believable and real. And, and really, just, I wore the t-shirt, you know, because I'm just loud and proud about my belief and who Jesus is in my life. And so I represent. But I think in general, The Chosen is just, it's bringing people to Jesus. And I have some theological whatever, uh, here and there, but in the bigger picture of things, it's beautiful, and, um, God's using it for very powerful things. So I support.

Yeah, it's amazing how that even happened, you know, how that was crowdfunded. How about you, Amanda? Have you seen The Chosen?

Yeah, my only beef with The Chosen is every time I watch it, I cry. So I think, um, it's just the most beautiful— Jesus and the woman at the well episode will like forever. Oh, tears. I think it's just— I— what Mary said, it's, it's a way to bring it to life. Sometimes, you know, we connect with God intellectually, but we don't always connect with God through our imaginations. And that's a gift that God gave us too. It's a full use of our minds and to, to really think about who Jesus was and is as a person and how the disciples interacted with him and what his mother would be like and his family and the just his human experience that he had here. And I, you know, we talk a lot about that at Christmas time, just that Jesus is God here with us. And to me, The Chosen is really a beautiful picture of what that means.

Okay, so I'll jump in. Joyce, let me jump in. Let's do our favorite Chosen moments. So yours is the woman at the well. My, mine is when Jesus forgives Mary, that the forgiveness scene in, in that one where she's just like, look me in the eye, I forgive you. That was, that was so beautiful.

How about you, Shannon?

I, I don't know. There's so many to choose from. I just love how it just humanizes everything. One of my favorites that just sticks with me is even how just Jesus interacted with children. How they portray that is just so— it so humanizes him and how he engages with people. I love that.

You're next, Amanda, since you cry all the time. What is it?

Well, the woman at the well, um, would be my top one. I also agree with Mary, Jesus forgiving Mary, um, and I think just you— the way— this isn't an episode maybe, but the way that Mary, the mother of Jesus, has developed throughout the whole thing as well, um, you know, her probably being the source for a lot of the information of the gospel writers too. I think she's just a beautiful character to see her grow with her son and what that would have meant and felt like, and then reflecting on his life and death and resurrection and the meaning of that. Um, and of course, at Christmas time, you know, I'm a sucker for the Christmas story always, and just putting myself back in those moments and really allowing our imaginations to be captivated. I think that's such an important muscle to exercise when it comes to our faith.

Oh, I just saw that again. And that when he's born, it's like, oh, he's born. That's Jesus. You know what I mean? It's just like such an amazing scene. But that woman at the well, but with Mary, you know what sticks in my mind is when Jesus first walks out and she's walking away and he says, Mary. Oh, so powerful. That is so powerful. But there are so many. I have to say also the disability, you know, uh, that scene— was that James, right, that he talked to?

Little, little James.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. About his disability. Why would you do this? You know, it would be as if I said that, "Why would you do this to me?" But think about it. You know, getting to talk about this. Look at me and see what happened. That scene, and I love that they have added autism to Matthew. Even though we don't know that, but it's just keeping disability as part of this. You know, I like that, keeping disability as part of it. Um, well, I do have a question for you, and that is, Mary, tell everyone how Northway started, because you knew Pastor Jay very well.

Okay, well, that's a big question, maybe actually more for Shannon, but I will say that Jay was our, you know, kind of spiritual father, and he was the founding pastor for Northway 40— what years ago, Shannon? 42? 43. And, um, you know, God birthed the dream and a calling in his life. God birthed the vision about a New Testament church. And there wasn't this, like, evangelical churches and multi-site mega churches— that wasn't really a thing at the time, you know. Over in the West, there was some, some rumblings. And, um, I just— God just downloaded it to Jay, you know, pre-internet. It's not like you were looking at everyone's sermons and figuring out what everyone was doing. It was just listening to God. And so with a bunch of folks in a small group, they had conversations and many, many months of prayer, and God just birthed it. And, you know, he was a strong and courageous leader who really, you know, an innovator and a visionary. And so we were lucky to have a person who just went, this looks like what it meant to be, what it's meant to be in the Book of Acts. And we're going to live like a church like that. And it was always based on discipleship, um, relationship, and then the one, the one-to-one with Jesus. So yeah, it was, you know, an amazing thing. We've gone through iterations, we've gone through lead pastors, but that one thing remains: one-to-one-to-one to each other, living a life of discipleship and connected to Jesus.

Yeah, but I mean, wasn't it Shannon, just a few couples, right? Yep.

So there are several couples that started out meeting in his basement. Actually, my aunt and uncle are one of those couples. And so, um, yeah, started small. He was actually our next-door neighbor, uh, for years and years and years until recently. So grew up with their family.

Wow. Wow. I mean, so it was like 6 couples or something? 8 or 9.

I can't remember. I always get it wrong. 8 plus them, so 9.

Yeah, 9. 9.

Okay.

So now how many churches, Amanda, how many do we have today? How many Northway locations are there?

Yeah, we have 7 locations around the Pittsburgh region, our newest being in the South Hills, but we have locations in Beaver County, so our Beaver Valley location in Rochester. One in Swickley Valley where my family attends, Dormont area, Robinson, the South Hills being the newest, uh, and then in the city in Oakland. Um, and we're looking, we have kind of one in the works out east, but that is just baby, baby phase. So it'll be 8 soon. And then of course digitally, um, all over the country and even the world.

So do you know how many that would be? How many people right now in total that would be?

Yeah, you know, it's hard to say, because actually they found after the pandemic, people really only attend church like 1.2 or 1.5 times a month, it averages out. And so we have, you know, over 4,000 people attending every weekend, but those likely aren't the same people. So it's hard to, you know, quantify. There's probably at least 8,000 people, I would imagine, who call Northway home at one of those locations. That's probably a conservative number. But it's exciting. You know, we're seeing God just continue to provide growth and blessing, and the vision really is to be in local communities. It's hard— you know, people aren't going to make the jump and drive a half hour to church anymore. Like, we don't live in a world like that. But to be in someone's neighborhood where you can go down the street and see your neighbors and invite people from your soccer team or from your place of work and really just have those localized, contextualized communities while still carrying out the mission and vision of Northway, you know, leading people to know, experience, and follow Jesus. And we're able to do that contextually all over Pittsburgh. And it's just been such a gift to see how God uses that and how God changes lives. You know, when you go to any one of those locations, it's, it's different stories, but the same story of meeting Jesus and growing in their faith and finding community and serving and, um, connecting to their purpose, like Mary talked about even in her calling earlier. So it's really a beautiful thing to see what God has done.

So before we go to our news break, those of you with disability— and by the way, as you all know, I'm headquartered right here in Pittsburgh, so I do go to Wexford, and I have a story about that in a moment. Um, but do you know the greatest news? Greatest news is that Northway is investing in accessibility. Peri, I'm talking captioning. I know, captioning, sign language, and, you know, assessing where else they need accessibility. Oh, Mary knows what a big deal this has been to me for a very long time. And when they announced they were doing it, oh! One of the things I told the different pastors is, remember when I had my accident in 1985? Because as you all know, I live with epilepsy. It was misdiagnosed. I had a seizure and I hit the floor so hard I fractured my skull and had a brain hemorrhage and then life-saving brain surgery. But what a lot of people don't pick up on is I fractured the bones in my right ear, which means I'm hard of hearing. And I've told the pastors, didn't you know that I'm always in the front row? Of course, that's because I want to cheer on Amanda. But in addition to that, um, if I sat in the last row, I could not hear. And they're not hearing the message. And you know, there are a lot of people older, just like Perry will tell you, in companies. What happens? People don't want to say they have a disability. Even people who are deaf have hid it because they're afraid they'll be treated differently. So I assure you, there are a lot of elderly people, hard of hearing, that really aren't hearing the message. They're seeing the captioning for the music. And how terrible is that if you have the message of salvation and they aren't hearing it? So that they're doing that. See, not all churches are doing this. So for you with disabilities, this is awesome. Like, I'm on top of the world about this. And with that, it's time to go to our news break with my great newscaster, Perry Jude Radesik. Perry, what do you have for us today?

Joyce, something really exciting. Uh, back on December 4th, the United States Department of Labor issued proposed regulations to finally amend the Fair Labor Standards Act, which would phase out the subminimum wage for people with disabilities. We call it the 14 certificate. It's what it's known as, 14. So that certificate program was established back in 1938. This law has not changed since 1938 with the intention of providing employment opportunities for people with disabilities who might not otherwise be able to obtain employment. Remember, this is 1938. So the idea was that if you let employers pay people a subminimum wage, they might hire people with disabilities. Well, that didn't always work. So employment for people with disabilities since 1938 has really expanded. We have the Americans with Disabilities Act as a reason. We have employment first practices around the country and states just like Pennsylvania has employment first. And so many other laws. So the provision is outdated. It perpetuates a system where people with disabilities are undervalued, underpaid for their work. So in response, the Department of Labor has proposed these new regulations to, one, stop issuing 14 certificates. So when it goes into effect, it would stop, they wouldn't issue any more 14 certificates. And two, it would phase out existing certificates over the next 3 years. So at the end of that phase-out period, workers would have to be paid the minimum wage wherever they are. They would not have to leave their current setting even if it's segregated. So the Department of Labor is keeping a segregated setting. They just have to pay the minimum wage. So Joyce Bender, I'm so excited to bring this step forward to your listeners. They always respond when we ask them to take some action, and here we are asking your listeners to take action again. The Department of Labor is accepting written comments on this proposed regulation until September— I'm sorry, January 17th, 2025. It's important that we send our individual comments in and urge the Department of Labor to adopt their regulation and phase out the subminimum wage program. So I got an important website for folks to find out more about this regulation and to submit comments. You visit the American Association of People with Disabilities, they have an action page. It's endsubminimumwage.org. That's endsubminimumwage.org. There you're going to find lots of information, including a plain language guide to the proposed rule and information on how and where to submit those comments, including some draft comments. So Joyce Bender, all of your listeners should go to nsubminimumwage.org, click on through that page and find out all the information, submit your comments, really do it before the holiday.

And that is so awesome. That is so— Perry, could you give for everyone listening to the show an example, like, of what people were being paid? I mean, it's different everywhere, but if you, if you could just let them know how terrible this has been.

Oh yeah, so it's piecework, often pennies, pennies. Uh, you, you might get a few pennies to produce a bag full of screws or a few pennies to put together your silverware in a napkin that a restaurant would then use and hand out to its patrons. So we're talking pennies instead of paying a minimum wage and valuing that work. And the goal was that people would be trained to do a job and then they would leave these settings Well, that hasn't completely happened. We still have people stuck in these settings, Joyce, and so we have a lot of people paying, just being paid dollars a week.

And yeah, and this was, as Perry said, started during World War II. Probably the initial reason was veterans coming back from the war. And although I place people in very competitive employment all the way to the executive level, people with intellectual disabilities and autism. Frequently, this is where they were put. And I'm meaning still. That's why this is so great that it will have to end. And the worst part is that there were not-for-profits like the one on the West Coast where the CEO was making millions And the people were making $1 an hour. Because what happens is a company goes because they have cheap labor and say, will you make these boxes for us? Or will you make this, as you said, paper, plastic silverware? And so they buy it and they pay them, but that doesn't go down to the people. I mean, it's like slavery. That's what I always call this. I mean, that you could be put somewhere and paid less than minimum wage forever. The disability community, we've been working on this forever, and finally, what great news. AAPD.com. I'm on the board, I'm the vice chair. As, as Perry said, AAPD.com, and there's an action page. Is that where it is?

That's right, Joyce. Sub— end subminimum wage They have a great action page.

Okay, thank you, Perry. And always, you're always on it. You know, I have to tell you that I spoke at a synagogue at Shabbat, and when I spoke there, I thought, oh, what am I going to talk about that relates to disability? So I talked about, you know, if there would be someone that came and you had to go hear them, a rabbi speak to decide whether or not you want to have this person as your rabbi, and oh my goodness, he has speech difficulty. What would happen? You probably wouldn't want him, but God God chose Moses to take them out of the— Israelites out of Egypt, who had speech difficulty. When you think about that, one of the greatest heroes in the Bible, and God chose a person with a disability. You know? I mean, that is really a powerful thing. Not to mention Jacob had a disability. You know, other people had disabilities. But it is that Moses story. That really gets to me. You know, when he said, "No, I don't want to do it. No, no, I don't speak well." And finally, "Okay, use your brother Aaron." Aaron was the accommodation. "You use Aaron to help you out." But isn't that amazing when you think about it? What do you think about that, Amanda?

Well, Moses is one of my favorites, so, uh, there's that. But I think, you know, God is so good in that He doesn't choose the flashy people or the most educated people or put-together people, or it's always the weak and unexpected people that God puts in places, uh, to display his glory. And so to me, elevating Moses is just one, like you said, of many examples where God chooses someone and in their weakness uses them to do, you know, miraculous things. In Moses' case, and you know, God appeared to him in a burning bush. He was one of the few people to have that direct encounter with God. You know, the list goes on and on of how God used him, but I'm just— yeah, I'm thankful that God doesn't select people like the world does, or like we do. You know, we gravitate toward, um, but God just is so good in that and elevates the marginalized.

Yeah, corporate America, they want the top of communications or a litigator. And there they go, but they have speech difficulty. Uh, they're not going to get hired. Yet Moses— yes, I mean, that always amazes me. Moses.

Well, and what I love about you, Joyce, and what you're doing too is that, you know, the image of God— we all bear the image of God in the way that he has created every single one of us. And one of the ways that you have been empowered to image God in the world that we live in is to show that character of God elevating the marginalized. Like, that's what you do every single day in so many ways, but even putting people into employment positions that they wouldn't otherwise have an advocate to get them there. And so that's just beautiful, the way that you have done that same thing. You know, you see the character of God and how you have emulated that, uh, for your whole life and your life's passion and career and work. And so, um, that's just a wonderful thing. So thank you for the way that you have wholeheartedly gone after that.

Thank you. But you know what? I always— yes, I am a vessel only. I always say this. But you know what? You have to listen. And when you listen, you get to make a choice one way or the other. You've got to listen. The voice comes, but you've got to listen. And speaking of the way someone looks, Mary, Jesse, when he went to Samuel looking for the next king, he— the family of Jesse, he looked at all the sons. I always say in the first one, they were pretty very presidential looking, and maybe the next one look like a model. And, you know, everyone came out, nope, nope, that's not it. Nope, nope. No, no, no, no, no. What happened, Mary?

Uh, yeah, they, they found the, the boy out in the field, you know, who wasn't even considered to be one of the sons that would be brought forth for that opportunity. And so, um, David ended up being a pretty studly looking guy, by the way, but What I love about David is we know a lot about his heart, and, and same with Moses. This is, this is always about not necessarily gifting, but, but where is your heart? And so, um, David had a heart that was, the, the Bible says, um, after God's own heart. And I don't know exactly what that means, but that's a pretty beautiful metaphor, just of just like, how close are you to the heartbeat of God And so somehow God knew that in this young man was being developed a heart that would be a leader and a heart that would be a lover. And so, um, I just love the story of David. I love that he was discounted from an early age and he was young, um, but he ended up being the greatest king of the people of God ever had. So, um, and a forerunner of Jesus. So yeah, it's a great story.

And what did the Bible say? It said, man looks on the outward appearance, God looks on the heart. That's right. Jenny Thornburg, Jenny Thornburg, if you're listening, Jenny is the wife of the late, great Governor Dick Thornburg. And they both are people of faith. And Jenny told me, yeah, you should get that verse and put on your website because that is what happens to people with disabilities. Man looks on the outward appearance, God looks on the heart. Amanda, you look like you're ready to say something.

No, I was just gonna say that Jenny's granddaughter goes to church here in Swickley with us.

Um, oh, does she?

Yeah, so that legacy continues, but even is connected to Northway. Um, in such a beautiful way. And she's an amazing person and, um, a champion in the disability space also, uh, with some personal circumstances in their life. But I thought you'd think that was a fun—

oh, that is fun connection. Unbelievable. That is awesome. Yes. And by— and you know Governor Thornburgh? Oh, I love him. And Jenny, I loved him. And he was a big Pirates fan, so that makes him really special. Um, but anyway, Governor Thornburgh was the Attorney General when the Americans with Disabilities Act was signed. So, you know, just, just a great family. Yeah, that's really something. Yeah, I have to tell her I said hi. I will, I will. And that, and that I'm friends with.

She'll love that.

Make sure, yeah, make sure you tell her. So Shannon, there are a lot of young women that I meet that say— I'm using this as an example— I want to be a Shannon, I want to be an Amanda, I want to be a Mary. Do you feel, Shannon, that there— obviously at Northwood there is, but in general, through all churches in America, do you feel today there is room for women to be in leadership roles in the church?

Absolutely, I do. I've, I've walked that path, and like I had said before, you know, I watched my mom, um, and she was a great example to me. And then I've walked that path myself. And then as one who had— man, I have a daughter who at a very young age, I mean, she— we, we got her a music stand because she called it her preacher stand, and she was determined from like age 4 to become a preacher. And she also, she has a disability and has some speech challenges, but there's, there's no door that I believe, you know, with her heart following after God, that he won't open for her. And so I do think it's critically important for there to be females representing that pathway. It's part of why I said my yes when God asked. And, um, and I do think that those doors are opening, um, across churches in America. And a lot of that is— some of that is, I think, Joyce, even culturally, um, things that we You know, there's sometimes different topics throughout the years that we kind of bury our heads in the sand and don't kind of do our due diligence to deeply understand. And there's, you know, interpretations of Scripture and a lot of what, you know, even from my journey was like, God, what do you say in your word? And he called me to take that journey so that I could say my right yes and follow and obey him into those leadership spaces as a woman.. And, um, I think that, that, you know, sometimes that's more challenging in, in certain maybe denominations where women aren't on display as much. But I know at Northway it's just been a beautiful journey of, of watching my mom, getting to do that myself, and now generationally my daughter stepping into those spaces.

Her name is Kaylee, your daughter? Kaylee, yes. Okay, let's give her a big shout out. So you make sure you tell her I did that. I see her all the time. She's like a bundle of fire. Make sure she listens to the show so she sees I gave her that shout out on the show. And I'm gonna stay here with you, Shannon. I wanted you to tell a little bit about when you were in Asia.

Yeah.

Did you also see what I was talking about? Sometimes shame if you're not perfect, shame if you're not real successful. Shame. If, like, even at MIT there has been, uh, suicides, and that was— it was over. Is that— I have— did you see that when you were there?

Yeah. So an interesting thing, I learned this really young. So I was 22 when I went overseas for the first time, and, um, I didn't really understand but had a quick education in the difference between, like, Eastern and Western culture.. And what I think we don't understand as Americans is that like much of Asia operates under an honor-shame culture. And I, again, I had to learn that really quickly because that's not how we operate here in America. Um, you know, guilt is, you know, we, we love, we have all the grandmas that pour on the guilt, right? If you don't see your grandkids and those types of things. But, um, the honor-shame space is something we're not very familiar with. And so that deeply permeates all of the value systems within those cultures. And it does play out in those spaces where if you have a child, yeah, with a disability or even doing anything that feels, you know, for them dishonoring to the family, it's a very big deal and causes a lot of shame. And, you know, even I stepped in some of those pitfalls myself as a young person out there. And at 22, I was a teacher. Who received immense amounts of honor just because a teacher is a very honorable profession. And so I was receiving honor from students who were 2 years younger than me, and I didn't really understand that. So there are— it's a very deeply rooted belief system that operates. I mean, the Bible operates in that way. If you, you know, when you read the Bible from the honor-shame perspective not just from our Western eyes, you can see a whole different narrative play out because of having those lenses on it. And it helps even make sense of what's happening in some of those stories that we then encounter in places like Asia.

Oh, I loved, loved the people. I did. And this thing you were talking about, the respect. Oh my goodness. Someone wanted their picture taken with me just because I was American. But I mean, the respect that they give. One thing that I tell the story to business people is that they would get here in the United States. I've been at so many meetings, people sitting at the other end of the conference room. Hey, let me, let me slide down my business card. It's slide it down. Oh no, you better get this right. That's right. You get your card, hold it on each end. And hand it to the other person. I mean, it's just so different and respectful of the elderly. That's one thing I, I noticed, that they look at as if you're older, you have a lot of education. And, you know, there are things we could learn. But I must tell you, in Indonesia, like, I had a hard time with the food. I used to pretend. I would put my fork down and I was, oh, wait a minute, and I'd pick the fork up. Then I'd go back down. Oh, another thing I forgot. Up goes the fork. I had a hard time. And when I walked past, and I was with Mary Brocker, when I walked past this one place and they had this little jar with chicken feet, I said, no, I'm telling you, I am not going there. Okay? Not going there. No way. Because like I have a problem with things like that. But wow, the fruit. Oh my goodness.

Yes.

So good. So good.

Fruit and vegetables are phenomenal.

Yes. Yes. Stick with them. No chicken feet for me. Okay. So Mary, what message would you like to leave with our listeners today As you all know, this is Christmas coming up next week. How is that possible? I don't know, but we are in the Christmas season. Pastor, uh, Scott must have his little Advent calendar lit that he keeps in his office. We are in the throes of it, celebrating the season. What message would you like to give, Mary?

Yes, so maybe something a little non-traditional in terms of Christmas. This is just— I don't know, um, what any of the listeners have been through or what, or what they believe about God, but, um, I just had a sense when I was praying that there might be someone out there who feels hurt or disconnected, um, maybe forgotten. Maybe the things of faith don't seem to make sense. To them. And I just wanted to encourage something very practical, just to find a person who lives a little bit differently, you know, that walks with a little joy and confidence and real live compassion for other people, um, as long as they know Jesus, right? And just ask them to help you understand why knowing Jesus makes a difference in their life. And if they can talk with you about their questions, um, But most of all, get to know the person of Jesus. And I guess I would say he's the only one that can change a life. He's the only one that can reach deep inside of us to show us things about ourselves and others that can bring freedom and a deeper sense of identity and purpose and a faith that can help you walk through any circumstance. So this is an interesting season in church history, and it feels like God is more active and near than I've ever seen. There's no one like Jesus. So if you don't know him, let this new year maybe bring, um, just a new journey for you. And Bible says seek him and you'll find him. I, I believe that's true. So go on a journey with Jesus. That's what I would hope for everyone.

How about you, Shannon?

I just love this time where, yeah, we come together in community. So that's, I think, you know, just the encouragement of you're not alone. Um, there are people out there that love deeply, and these are those times when we get to gather together. I mean, we're celebrating Jesus, um, in the most beautiful form, where like his prayer for us was that we would be unified, um, as a body. And so this is the time where I see his church, his people coming together, reflecting him, um, really, yeah, being present and available, knowing that this time is often really hard for people. And so I would just, yeah, more than anything remind folks that they're not alone this Christmas.

Amanda?

So much good wisdom there. I'm not sure what I can add, but I do think at Christmas for me, the idea of God coming to be with us and in a way that he can understand our human experience is such a powerful thing. Especially like Shannon and Mary said, it can be a challenging time of year. Our, you know, grief or challenges can be magnified. And the idea of having a God who comes close to all of that brings so much comfort. And so to really lean in, um, if you have that longing in your heart to take a step at Christmas, maybe to try a church down the road, or if you're in Pittsburgh, of course you're welcome at Northway anytime, no matter what your background or denomination or history or even view of the churches. We would love to have you at any of our services. They're all available on our website.

Amen. See, I told you you were going to hear it. Amen to that. Um, I want to say to all of you, and by the way, to all of my Jewish friends, I wish you a happy Hanukkah also. My best friend comes to my holiday party and gets up there and sings her Christmas music the whole time she's there. So I always say we're sisters by birth. She's the Jew, I'm the Gentile. So, you know, we pray to God. We obviously go different ways. But do you hear what Amanda said? Everyone's welcome. Everyone's welcome. And what I love about Jesus is that he cared for the least of these. And I know you all know that Matthew 25 story I talk about frequently, but he cared about the least of these. That means people with disabilities, people that are homeless, you know, people totally marginalized. He cared about the least of these. Um, and it is his birthday. We're celebrating it. Just as Shannon said, it's a time of peace. It's It's a time of unity. It's a time we can all get together in the midst of everything going on in this world. I hope if you're in Pittsburgh, you will be at Northway. Go to— is it northway.com, the website?

.org. .org.

Yeah, northway.org. Go to northway.org. No matter where you live, if you're in Western Pennsylvania, But what Amanda did for a long time was the virtual. So you also— I mean, she was our leader during the pandemic, but you can also go to Northway and make a donation. How about that? It is hard to run these great things, helping these people around the world, helping the homeless, helping everyone, spreading the news of Jesus, doing all of this. Takes money. So they won't say it, I will. Make a donation to Northway. Go to the page today and make a donation. Thank you all for being with me today. You're so awesome, every one of you. So beautiful. I end every show with a quote, and I know you're all gonna love the quote today. Before Unto us a child is born, to us a child is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6-7. And I also In the words of Mary Brooker, have a message for all of you on every show, and that is, when you go out today, remember, choose joy. Talk to you next week. Don't forget Judy Uman.

Voice America would like to thank you for tuning in. Please join us next Tuesday at 11 AM Pacific time and 2 PM Eastern Eastern time for another installment of Disability Matters, right here on the Voice America Variety Channel. We are the leader in live internet talk radio.

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