Mick Malec: enGen's Commitment to Hire People with Disabilities

Today's episode of Disability Matters has been previously recorded. Please enjoy today's episode.

Welcome to Disability Matters with your host Joyce Bender. All comments, views, and opinions expressed on the show are solely those of the host, guest, and callers. Now the host of Disability Matters, here's Joyce Bender.

And welcome to the show, everyone. This is Joyce Bender, and I'm always so excited to have you with me. So to all of my listeners in the United States, thank you for your support. Do you know the show has been on 20 years? Can you believe it? You know why? Because of all of you and your support. And to my customers, listeners I should say listeners around the world, from China to Australia, 17 different countries with listeners. Thank you. You know, I always say, even if it's one person, such as one person in Saudi Arabia, hey, you can make a difference. Just tell someone else about the show and you are helping to make a difference. Hello, Yoshiko. Special shout out to you today and to my great sponsor, lead sponsor of the past several, several years, Highmark. You know what I always say? Highmark sets the high mark for other companies to follow. And today, before I introduce our guest, as you all know, I have so many people on the show— CEOs, senators, authors, movie stars— across the board. But I want to tell you, this person is the real deal. Did you ever go somewhere and you hear people talking and they say all these things they're going to do, but they don't do them? All right, he really does them. And to the disability community, across the world, he should be your hero and champion. And that would be my guest today, Mr. Mick Malek, the CEO of nGen. Welcome to the show.

Thank you. Great to be here.

Well, it's absolutely great to have you again as a returning guest because you had very big listeners, Mr. Malik. So thank you for being with us. But my first question for our listeners around the world, um, could you share with our listeners about Engen, what Engen is and does? And then, um, you know, you serve there as the CEO. How did you all get to where you are now?

Thank you for the question. NGIN is a healthcare information technology company. Obviously healthcare is extremely complex, has a lot of data, a lot of systems, a lot of interactions, just a lot of everything in delivering healthcare. So NGIN is the engine, if you will, of maintaining all those different components. Servicing a wide variety of customers, patients, etc., in the marketplace. So big operations, lots and lots of information technology, and very responsible level of engagement we have. I started a while ago as— in a bank as a check sorter operator and moved up through the ranks to computer operator, shift manager, distribution clerk, programmer, programmer analyst, all that good stuff. So kind of grew up through the trenches, the IT trenches, all the way into having responsibility for this existing platform. So I just kind of ground my way through it.

That is a great story for any young people with disabilities listening to the show, well, of course, for everyone, but sometimes people think people somehow just get to these jobs. They somehow, you know, they get there and they have to have like a PhD and incredible background and all this wealth behind them. Did you hear what he said, how he started? That just proves that with hard work you can move up. That's why you can't be discouraged. Sometimes someone will say to you, well, here's a job, here's an entry-level job, although, you know, you don't know if that would be a way to move up. Look at him, he's the CEO, and that is a great story. Mick, how large is NGINN?

Well, we have, um, over 13,000 people as part of our team. We do all the information technology, all the backroom servers and big mainframes, and we also do operations. We have call centers and claims, and so it's a complete end-to-end solution. Also support our provider network here in Western Pennsylvania, everything from cell phones to cell towers. So it's a ton of technology and a ton of operations.

Wow, you've got a big job there, Mr. Malik.

Well, I'm very mediocre at it.

I'm waiting. I was waiting. I knew some little comment. I was waiting. Um, okay, there you go. Well, Nick. Since this is heard everywhere and is often sent to Senate or, you know, other officials, to their staff so they can hear about what's going on with disability, I just want everyone to know, I want you to listen very carefully. At the end of June, He had a kickoff for ADA Month, Disability Pride Month, the month the Americans with Disabilities Act was signed. I don't know if I know of anyone that did that at a CEO level. Actually, I don't. I only know of him. So I want everyone to know what he did. Mick, would you share with our listeners about that day and what you did and why you did it when you spoke to your staff?

Sure. Uh, we have regular leader meetings, regular team meetings. As you can well imagine, it's a little bit more difficult these days with everybody being remote, but one of the major themes in the one in June was, uh, the American Disabilities Act. Uh, we've been very fortunate working with Joyce Bender and others We have brought aboard almost 20 people this year and continuing to increase that every year. We have also had other engagements. So, you know, we really believe in this program. We believe it is not charity. It is just good business. And the people we have brought aboard have been very loyal to the cause, very hardworking. And you would not be able to tell these folks from other folks from these folks from those folks. It's just a pool of people working hard to get stuff done. So there are no logistical barriers here. There's only a single purpose in delivering good stuff for our customers, and these folks fit right in. So we made it a leader initiative across what I described as a pretty large enterprise to continue and escalate the focus on helping these folks out. We feel that every once in a while somebody just needs a little extra boost, and those who can should.

Yes, to his point, I want to tell you at our family picnic, and we call it family, I'm talking about current employees and past employees of Bender, I look up, I said, oh my goodness, you've got to be kidding me. It was Neil Cannon, who has quadriplegia, uses a wheelchair. He's such a sharp guy, and he and his wife I had not seen for like at least 20 years. I want to tell you about Nick. He was in a horrible car accident with his father. His father was killed. He survived, but of course became a person paralyzed. When I met him, he was in Texas. I tell about this entry-level position at Highmark in the Camp Hill area, and he on his own moved up here. He's still here. I, I'm going to that point that Mick made about people with disabilities. Here's that untapped labor pool of people who want to work with incredible loyalty to the person they give We gave them that chance, and guess what, Mick? He called our office about 2 months ago and said, "I have an opening and want to work with Bender." This made my dream come true. One of our employees moves up to a management position and then, you know, hires someone with a disability. But that's your point, because I know you know that in this candidate-driven marketplace, especially IT, there is a lot of turnover.

Yes. So once again, we find these folks— I'm sorry, go ahead.

No, no, go ahead.

You know, from the business standpoint, yes, do we find these folks to be qualified, high engagement, and loyal? Nowadays, That's a 3 for 3. You cannot turn up.

Yeah, I agree with you. And about that, no pity. See, everyone, that's our mantra here at Bender. No pity. People with disabilities want paychecks, not pity. You do a good job, you get promoted. You don't do a good job, you don't have a job. Must be equal treatment across the board, because when it's equal, then we too have a chance to move up and compete with everyone else. And AAPD, the American Association of People with Disabilities, is in fact the number one cross-disability organization in D.C. and that works with the White House. And on Capitol Hill. And they have a leadership roundtable, and at the leadership roundtable, it's large companies, about 30, that are members of the roundtable. And at the roundtable this year, July 26th, the day the ADA was signed, only one person, only one person from the business world spoke for a few minutes. Only one, and it was Mick Malick. So I wanted to ask you, Mick, as you know, as a leader of the Roundtable, we keep working, speaking everywhere to try to get more companies to hire people with disabilities, and you are one that continues to spread the news and always tells me, hey Joyce, if you have another CEO you know, or leader you want me to talk to, I will. So here's my question: Why are you so passionate about this?

I've been very fortunate this year. I was nominated for diversity recognition, and we all know diversity takes a lot of forms. We were able to waive the need to have a bachelor's degree to hire in. You know, nowadays, it's a lot of smart people just can't afford to finish a degree. You can't turn yourself off from that. Same thing here. You cannot afford to turn yourself off from really smart people who can do a job and, you know, maybe have a limitation or two. The computer doesn't care about your physical status. It cares about your mental status. What can you develop? What can you test? What can you document? What can you lead? How can you deliver value?

This—

the business doesn't need your physical appearance, your physical dexterity. It just needs your mind to help drive outcomes. Now more than ever, you know, just about everybody and their brother's remote. So many times you don't even know who's on the other side of a call or the other side of the screen. All you can see is from the neck up. So that is the great equalizer, just a great equalizer. When you only see people from the neck up, all you see is their ability to engage, to help solve and deliver value. It's somewhat of a more level playing field once an individual can get through the front door.

Yeah, that's right. That is so true because it doesn't matter if you use a wheelchair, If you're blind, there's technology today. If you're deaf, there's technology today. It's just your ability to do the job. And IT is one area out of all the different business groups at companies that seems the most willing to bring in people with disabilities. And I think that's because people in IT understand what you just said. They understand technology can work for anyone, and that's why I think that we have been so very successful in that area. And I'm wondering, as you're talking about that, Mick, so hearing all these stories you just told us, why do you think companies don't hire people with disabilities? Why is it that even today, 70% of Americans with disabilities are not counted in the workforce with double the unemployment rate. And all you have to do, go to a company, see if you— any wheelchairs? Do you see a service dog? And so I'm asking you, why do you think that is?

You know what, that's a great question. When I first— I remember the first time I met you, you were— we were met with a couple of our leaders here and you came in the office and within literally 10 minutes I knew what we had with you, that you are a very passionate, articulate representative of the folks who need a boost. I mean, every once in a while everybody needs a boost. Everybody got a break somewhere along the line. Or they may not be where they're at. So that's not anything other than life. And I know I've got boosts in my life. And so I thought, well, first and foremost, let's see if we can pay some of that back. Why others don't do it, I don't know. It's not hard work. It's not a stress on the organization to use you as another recruiting arm. It's not, it's not a harder work to interview people, to bring these folks aboard. There's no additional work here, none. It's not an ounce of anything extra other than adding a name to the vendor blanket, which all of us do. So first off, not a real big barrier of entry here. And secondarily, the value's there. So I don't know why. I'll be darned, you know, we're more passionate about it every year. And like everything else, we see the value. You know, you can feel good to do a couple things up front and feel good about yourself.. But for a sustainable relationship, you got to get the value. And we get the business value. And at the end of the day, it doesn't hurt anybody to do good by folks who may— like your example there, the gentleman had a real tough go. He had a real bad accident. You know, maybe this is karma helping him out a little bit. I don't know. All I know is these people work real hard and they want to be here.

Yes. And as you said, so appreciative. When he introduced— when Neil introduced me to his wife, he said, "This is the person that helped change my life, and Highmark is the company that fulfilled it." And I don't think people understand what it's like, unless you are one of these people, to be left out. I always say, you know, you do not realize employment is a treasure. Every day you go to work, you should be thankful that you have employment because there are millions that do not. Just as Mick said, there are people marginalized that they don't have the money, they're in poverty, they can't go to college. And you know, why should they be left out if they can do the job? And Mick, I commend you for doing that, for including them. And I know that at different companies, people have told me that people without the 4-year degree, they were as hard workers and as top performers as those that did have a 4-year degree. But everyone deserves a chance to work, everyone. But, you know, if you're listening right now, if you have a job, you should be so thankful. Every day when you go to work, you should be thankful because people with disabilities are trying to get those jobs. But if they've been in the military and they're a burn victim, oh, let me tell you what it's like when you go on an interview. One of my employees who is fantastic, she's in human resources, her husband is blind and we helped him get a job. And she said, the reason I wanted to work at Bender is that for 11 years, Although my husband had a college degree with a high grade point average, everyone would want to interview him. And then when he went in and they saw him, all of a sudden the job was filled. And when we met him, surprise, surprise, his first job was at Allegheny Health Network. So, this is the whole problem. Someone that does not eliminate someone because they're a burn victim or because they stutter or because they're blind, when you see them, you're not looking at the ability of that person. And by the way, if you're saying, oh, I'm apprehensive hiring people with disabilities, guess what? You already have. Yep, they're working in your company right now. They have depression, bipolar disorder, MS, diabetes, Post-traumatic stress disorder, epilepsy, I could go on and on. It's just they aren't telling you. They're not telling you because they feel they'll be treated differently. And I can say that Highmark and Engen are— and AHN are companies, Highmark Whole Care, that open the door to people with disabilities, and all they care about is are you going to get the job done? You know what I say about you, Mick? I tell people he wouldn't care if you're an alien as long as you get the job done. There you go. Am I right? Isn't that the truth though? That is true about you. That's right. You— so another question I have, uh, Mick, is Highmark, InGen, AHN, Highmark Whole Care, all these companies, it's unusual how the leadership at the top across the board, you know, how it's so permeated the whole company. I mean, why do you think that is? Because when I talk to someone at Engen or at Highmark or at AHN or Highmark Whole Care or any of the other hospitals, divisions, whatever it is, Everyone is always open, unlike in other companies. Why do you think that is?

It does start at the top with David Hollenberg, you know, and in general, the company here has a very strong sense of community with respect to healthcare and other social determinants. So, you know, our charter is to, you know, give a darn, if you will, and put some money behind giving a darn and putting some commitment behind that. So, In that way, this company is of one singular mind. Of course, it does start with David, but Karen Hanlon and others are certainly of the same ilk that, you know, once we commit to something, we commit to it. And in this case here, it's the right thing to do. And I like to think the company here specializes in doing the right thing.

And you're right, just like with you, if I say, oh, thank you, you, David, Karen, Deb Rice Johnson, whomever it is, will say to me, "No, no, thank you, because you're finding great people, people that appreciate work and stay," just like that example I just gave you about Neil Cannon. And I know Larry Kleinman is, you know, a great advocate, and he's the Chief Human Capital Officer. And Cindy Hundorfeen and Alan Duffield. I mean, when it comes from the top, it really does make a difference because it just permeates through the entire company. And I think I talked to you before about this, Mick, that you said the leadership at the company is so great.

Yeah.

Across the board.

Yeah.

So We're going to be getting ready to go to break, and we will then be right back with Mick Malek, CEO of EnGen. Don't go away. We'll be right back. This is Joyce Bender, America's Voice, where disability matters, at voiceamerica.com.

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JoyceBender.com.

You're listening to Disability Matters. If you have a question or comment, call in toll-free at 1-866-472-5788. That's 1-866-472-5788. Now please welcome back the host of Disability Matters. Here's Joyce Bender.

And welcome back, everyone. If you just joined us, we're talking to Mick Malek, the CEO of InGen, right here in the great city of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And for those of you listening around the world, remember, InGen is a subsidiary, wholly owned subsidiary of Hi, Mark. Uh, and this is an organization that, as you all know, I've talked about since 1995, because if it weren't for them, I would not have been able to start the company. So I just can't speak highly enough of a company and of this wonderful man we have on the show today. And I know, Mick, that AAPD is sending this out everywhere and some people to CEO groups. So for any CEOs listening to this show right now that aren't hiring people with disabilities, what advice would you give them?

Got to give it a shot. Absolutely have to give it a shot. I guarantee they will not be disappointed., in the, in the business outcomes. As we said, this is in the charity. Uh, so absolutely spend a little time to get engaged in this to see what's going on. Uh, it's well worth the investment. Um, and quite frankly, it doesn't do anything to hurt the old spirit at the end of the day either. Um, you know, these folks are not looking for pity, not looking for charity, but as I've mentioned several times, every once in a while, some of us excuse me, just need a little boost, need a little help. And there's nothing wrong with doing that. Matter of fact, it's probably everything right with doing that. So I would say just spend an hour, spend 2 hours, just spend some time figuring out how you can engage in this, and it takes off from there. This is not the kind of thing that takes a lot of internal selling and internal motivation or capital to get going. It kind of takes care of itself.

Yes, you just have to open the door. A question that came in here, Mick, is when you are interviewing people to bring on board, what are some of the things you look for so that people with disabilities listening to the show can keep that in mind? Well, anyone listening to the show, you know, what are some of the things you look for in people?

First off, technical match. There are so many different technologies and disciplines. You can specialize in security. You can specialize in testing and development. Well, the first thing we look for is that technical match. Do you have the skills that this job requires across different disciplines? So that's number one. Number two is, of course, the mental attitude. What, you know, how do you come across in an interview? Are you engaged? Are you excited about the opportunity? Are you able to explain your experiences? Are you able to explain your learning? So, we look for that human being connection, which is, is this somebody who would work well in a team? Is this somebody who would be able to take assignments and run with them? So, the technical acumen, the mental dexterity, and then, you know, Once again, behind all that, the sense of will this person really be engaged and want to be here.

So, do you believe it helps people, for example, developing skills if they don't have, you know, a job yet, but they're doing volunteer work and volunteer projects at different organizations? Do you think that would help?

All of it helps. I've had to retool myself many times as I've gone through the career. You know, I started off with a certain set of skills. I've had— I had to learn new skills. Then I learned project management skills, system skills. I mean, I've had to retool myself to stay relevant in the market. As we've— a lot of folks have been in the industry, they had to do the same thing. So You can never go broke investing in yourself. I mean, that's— I know it sounds cliché, but you gotta look at yourself as you're almost your own little business. What skills, what credentials, what certifications can I obtain to make myself marketable? I got myself back in the day Microsoft certified and then PM certified. Now I'm certifiable, but Joyce, that's a different problem. We shan't go through that here.. But you got to invest in yourself and make yourself a little business to say, what about me would be attractive to the marketplace?

You know what I like a lot about what you just said? Investing in me is like your own little business. Oh, that is a great analogy, and it's true. That's why I always tell high school students with disabilities, you are You're your best investment and don't let anyone take that away from you. And that example you gave is just absolutely so true. We have another question that came through on mentoring. How important do you think mentoring is? And part 2 to that question, let me read it. Did you have a mentor?

I really don't know how important it is. If you can find somebody to, that you feel comfortable in sharing career aspirations and et cetera, I would advise that for sure. You know, so, you know, it's a matter of, you know, personal taste, I guess. Some folks are better than others around seeking out help. I never had an official mentor, but I worked for a lot of, you know, I've worked for several good leaders that I learned a lot from, a tremendous amount about how to run a business and how to do finances and how to sell and just a lot of different things. So I had some very good role models as I was coming up through the ranks that I was able to learn, you know, very practical experiences and how to run different parts of an information technology organization, how to build it, how to sell one, etc. So, you know, I— when you latch yourself to someone that you have respect for, you're going to learn simply by nature, because obviously that person that you're respectful of and attached to, they resonate with you, they, they connect with you, and the way they do things you can't help but learn from that to a certain extent. So, you know, a little more difficult today because we're not so face-to-face, you know, as we were before, but there's still opportunities out there for that. So, you know, I, once again, you can't put a price tag on having good role models that you can learn from.

A lot of good questions here. The next question is, I'm in college, a person with a disability, leaning toward a degree in computer science. Mr. Malik, are there certain areas you feel I should study more than others?

Yeah, it's almost like coming to medical field, that specialization is becoming pretty key. So you would, you know, there's a lot of different aspects. Security is still a very hot commodity. Everybody's still spending more money on security than ever. Data connections, interoperability, and the technology behind that is very hot. As the proliferation of systems grow, how these things are connected to each other, how these things share data with each other is critical. So, you know, specialization, will help. Certifications also help. Certifications such as Agile. Agile is a methodology about doing development, project and development and code development. Agile is still very hot in terms of, you know, turning around deliverables quicker. So, you know, having more specialization or two will be attractive to a specific, you know, to a market. That's looking for, you know, exact talent, but I'll tell you what, you can't go wrong if you focus on security, if nothing else.

Yeah, that is a really big area because that's one area companies do seem to have a hard time keeping people on board, and I know this has been a candidate's marketplace Do you see that IT will continue to be a big industry as we move forward, Mick?

Oh, for goodness' sake, definitely. You know, the market continues to be very aggressive in hiring people. The amount of technology all the way down from the human being level all the way up to the cloud, but in healthcare alone, so many parts and pieces are going to start to talk to each other. The Fitbit, you know, more real-time data to your physician. It is amazing what's going to happen here over the next decade or more. We have just literally scratched the surface of all that is available out there. So, you know, you have healthcare that's looking to use more technology to deliver healthcare because the market's tight for nurses and such. So, you have so many economic factors driving the need for more technology. That is not gonna go away.

Well then, if you're listening to this show, if you have a disability and if you have a propensity toward IT, a sense of logic, and the ability to get educated in this area, I would have to say that's certainly a good opportunity. It's like I interviewed someone once, Mick, and they asked, what do you wanna be? Zookeeper. I said zookeeper or zoologist. I'm sorry, zoologist. I said, okay, how many are there in the whole country? So my point is, pick an area that, you know, you can find a job in, but you also have to have the skills. Some people have a propensity toward IT, some do not, but If you do, this is an area that I would say, just as Mick said, there will always be a need for people. And AI, do you see that too, Mick, as an area that's increasing artificial intelligence?

Well, most definitely. You know, as the labor market continues to be challenged filling all the positions, you know, The ability for applications programs to do more of the mundane keystrokes is always needed. So that, of course, is certainly very prevalent and becoming more so, not for replacement of jobs, more about they can't get anybody to do the job. So, you know, nobody really wants to be a data entry clerk anywhere— no— anymore. So, you know, it's the natural evolution of things.

Oh, that is so true. There's so much opportunity there, so much. So, Mick, who was your role model? I mean, I, I always tell— oh, by the way, I have to have a shout out to Miss Christina Picone. Wow, what a great person she is. She's Mick's chief of staff, and she is just as passionate about employing people with disabilities as you can imagine. But everyone, when they have a heart and open-minded and include everyone of every background as long as they can do the job, someone influenced them. So tell me, who was your role model?

Well, last time I I know what you're going to say. Yeah, I, I had that, you know, that doesn't— that's really not the best role model, and that's not really, not really true. Um, you know, that's, that's a little harsh. What I, what I think about sometimes is Winston Churchill, uh, only from the fact when, you know, things were at their absolute darkest, and, and that, you know, England had it very, very, very difficult there. The guy stayed the course, guided the country, did not give up. So, I learned from that exercise where he just lived to fight the next day, lived to fight the next day, lived— and he got them through that. Of course, not by himself. It was certainly an entire, you know, country. But I admired when I read all about him how he stuck to it.

Yeah. I will say perseverance. Is certainly a key skill in being successful because, you know, just when you're ready to give up, success could be right around the corner. And that is, that is something I talk about all the time. Oh, hey, we have another question here. And it is, Mr. Malik, what would you suggest I have a job. I have a significant disability. I have a hard time getting people on my team to associate with me. Do you have any suggestions?

Geez, that's a tough one. You know, no, I don't know why that would occur. I don't want to say you're on the wrong team necessarily, but gosh, no, it hurts my feelings to hear that. All I can tell you is you got to be you. If you have something to offer, and clearly you did because you got the job, then you got to stick to your guns. I mean, at some point all of us have dark days, and obviously I feel like some of us have darker days than others, and I understand that. But at the end of it, you just got to stay true to yourself. I would also say then there's a fine line between neglect and maybe more than that. And, you know, once again, I certainly don't know the circumstances nor the company, but I would say, you know, if you're feeling that way, you know, you should probably reach out to a supervisor or someone. No one should feel that way, disabilities or no disabilities, diversity or no diversity. No one should feel like they're outside the loop. You know, we're all— when we hire folks, We're all hired to do a job and be a team. So, if you're not feeling like part of a team, you know, you got to speak some solids. You got to speak some resolution. And that doesn't mean you as a person with disabilities. That means you as a team contributor. And you've earned that right as a team contributor to have an opinion.

And I have a feeling that if you're like a hard worker, great person, which I'm sure you are. Sometimes people like that, they don't succeed, you know, if they're of that nature. So you just have to keep doing a great job. But I would talk to someone. I agree with Mr. Malik. Maybe you can get to another team, whatever, but don't keep it a secret. You've got— even if you're saying Could you give me advice on this? You know, could you give me advice what to do?

Yeah, you're right, you're right.

Well, Mick, I have a question for you. You have accomplished so much in your life by the example of what you gave earlier, how you started and where you are. But what is your proudest accomplishment in your career?

I don't think I've had yet. You know, I just needed a paycheck. So, you know, I had to keep evolving my skills and I was lucky to, you know, have a job through all this. I've been very fortunate that I've never been without a job in IT. So I don't know if I've had a singular moment. I like being here at Highmark a lot. Because, you know, the team I have is very involved in delivering healthcare solutions, making sure things run so people can get healthcare. And then there are opportunities like this to work with Joyce Bender and other diverse candidates and diverse organizations to make a difference. I mean, nobody wants their legacy to be, "Gee, Mick worked a lot of hours." That's not anything. So I think that this place allows my team and myself to make a difference in how we can have an impact on certain people's lives, that is certainly very satisfactory. And, you know, and everybody's behind all that. So, you know, to me, that is— that's what we're here for, to make a difference.

And that you are. And as I said earlier, he is the real deal. I'll never forget A couple years ago, we were at the Pittsburgh Technology Council, and I'm walking out with him talking about, you know, hiring people, and he said, Joyce Bender, as many people as you have that are qualified for this job, send them. I did, and guess what? They were hired. Now, I want to stress again what he said at the beginning. It's not that you just send people with disabilities for a job. Technical match, or they will fail. Has to be a technical match, uh, and, and of course the right orientation, which we only send people like that. But, uh, if you don't have the skills and you want to work with the— in this area, go get those skills. So, um, there are many people with disabilities that are doing what you said trying to hang in there, but I told you before about the unemployment rate. What, what advice do you have for people with disabilities who seem to try and try and try, just like the example I gave you about Chris, who for 11 years went on all these interviews, but when they met him and saw he was blind, the job somehow went away? What advice do you have for people with disabilities that feel as if I'm trying, trying, I'm not getting anywhere?

Wow, that's a real tough one. You know, it's easy for me to say, you know, because I'm not a person with disabilities. I've been blessed, you know, with that way. I would just say when it comes to IT, as I mentioned, continue to invest in yourself. Get a certification. Invest in classes, you know, build yourself up to make sure when the opportunity shows up you're prepared. So there'll be nothing worse than an opportunity being there and then you're missing a part or two. I certainly understand that there might be a higher degree of scrutiny, unfortunately, given your person's resume here versus someone else's, and I— we compensate the other way, you know. Where, you know, let's make sure this person isn't a fit type of thing. It goes back to my philosophy of, you know, sometimes people just need a little boost. But I would say continue to prepare yourself, you know, from a skill set perspective. Get plugged into many organizations like Joyce's as you can, and hopefully some good fortune will occur. You know, I really can't be more prescriptive than that because I, I still have somewhat of a mental block on why other companies would not be as assertive as Highmark is in this space. As I mentioned, it doesn't cost a gosh darn thing to do this. It just doesn't. Joyce Bender is not looking for a check. You're not— look, people that she represents are not looking for a check. None of that's going on. It's just good old-fashioned business. And so, you know, sometimes I'm just thrown for a loop that, you know, people are not as inclined as they could be. Not because it's like something that is, I would say, a charitable, I feel good about myself, you know. You know, help yourself. These people show up to work every doggone day and do what you ask them to do. That's a pretty good deal nowadays.

Yeah. And remember, you are the temporarily able-bodied. You can join my group at any time. I hope it would not take that for you to free yourself from ableism and look at the person's talent. And with that, Mick, thank you so much. Mick Malick, thank you so much for being with us today.

Uh, you're very welcome. You're our hero here. Keep fighting the good fight with the folks you represent, and We'll talk soon.

All right. Well, if you want to hear this show, someone else— you want someone else to hear it, it is on demand. You can go to Spotify, Apple, uh, Amazon, voiceamerica.com, and you can hear the show and share it with someone else, which you should. This is Joyce Bender, America's Voice. We end every show with a quote, and today it is "Let the shameful wall of exclusion finally come tumbling down," said President George H.W. Bush at the signing of the Americans with Disabilities Act. We will see you next week, and remember, in the words of Mary Brocker, choose joy.

Thank you for tuning in. Please join us next Tuesday at 11 AM Pacific time and 2 PM Eastern time for another installment of Disability Matters right here on the Voice America Variety Channel. We are the leader in live internet talk radio. VoiceAmerica.com.