Mission and Goals of BBI

Welcome to Disability Matters with your host Joyce Bender. All comments, views, and opinions expressed on the show are solely those of the host, guest, and callers. Now the host of Disability Matters, here's Joyce Bender.

Hey everyone, welcome to the show to everyone in the United States and around the world. I always start the show when I'm talking about around the world, that is, uh, acknowledging all those great countries that are listening, like China, from China to Saudi Arabia. I just want to tell all of you, I appreciate so much what you're doing. Remember, some countries there's only 1 or 2 people listening. It's amazing. Those 1 or 2 people with disabilities, you're going to make a difference. So if you are in one of those countries listening, I want you to tell other people, send emails out, you know, get on flyer because you can be that person that makes a difference. So hello, Richard Roberts from the State Department. Hello, Gangyong in South Korea, Cheryl Harris in Tunisia, Venyamin in Kazakhstan, and everyone from Austria, Libya, Nigeria, all of you where I have done a program or visited in person. I love all of you. Japan, thank you so much in Japan for all of you that listen. And that brings me to Yoshiko Dart. Yoshiko, I'm talking about Japan, I'm thinking about you. And Yoshiko Dart, I love Yoshiko. Every single show for, I don't know, 3 to 4 years now, I acknowledge Yoshiko. And the reason for that, in addition to the fact that I love Yoshiko, is that she is the widow of Justin Dart. And I don't want you to forget Justin Dart. He is and always will be one of the greatest leaders in history, in our history books, of the civil rights movement for people with disabilities. It is a shame that there isn't more done in our schools teaching people about our leaders, but I'm gonna do my place. So I wanna just give you a big shout out, Yoshiko, as I do on every show. And hi, Mark, thank you so much for being the lead sponsor of this show for the past 5 years, maybe it's 6 years, not for a quarter, lead sponsor. Thank you so much. And I must tell you, I have only had today's guest on my show one other time. And this show, by the way, has been on— can you believe it? No— for 15— no, no, it's almost 18 years. Oh my goodness, I've been on here for a long time on Voice America. And I love Voice America, but I love having these guests that are game changers, game changers for people with disabilities. And surely that is our guest today, Peter Blank, the chair of Burton Blatt Institute at Syracuse University, author, professor, and in my books, civil rights leader for people with disabilities, and boy does he know employment. He knows employment. Sadly, he knows how low the employment is for people with disabilities, but I'm thrilled to have him with me. Uh, and welcome to the show, Peter.

Oh, Joyce, it's such a pleasure to be on your show, and what an inspiring introduction.

Well, that's how I feel, and that's how many of us feel. But you know what, you've accomplished so much in your life, but I I have asked all the guests over the past year to begin by telling us your story. You know, like, where did you grow up? And, you know, how did you move on? What caused you to be interested in what you're doing now? If you could just share a little bit about yourself with our listeners.

Well, Joyce, like probably many of your guests, My story is our story. I've been blessed to know many of the people you mentioned in your introduction. I've been touched in profound ways, as many of us have, by disability with close family members, particularly on the mental health front, and I have grown for years and years with this community. At this time of COVID and at this time of great challenge in the world, both in terms of racial justice, in terms of disability justice, in terms of surviving during this pandemic and maintaining our democracy. As you know, we also lost this year our great mentor, Governor Richard Thornburgh, Dick Thornburgh, uh, this past year.

I know.

He used to say, actually he wrote it in one of the forewords to my books, "Dis— democracy is not a spectator sport." And by that he meant that we all need to be engaged and do our part. Dick Thornburgh, for those of you that don't know, was a pivotal leading figure in the American disability civil rights movement. He was the Attorney General of the United States. and he was governor of Pennsylvania, but when he was Attorney General, he facilitated as a key player with Justin Dart, Yoshika, and others in passing the Americans with Disabilities Act, in part for a better vision for his son Peter and his wife Ginny, who is an amazing leader in her own right. And we are now building on the legacy of individuals like Dick and Justin and so many others. And my story, as I say, Joyce, is really the story of a movement. I was a young lawyer and psychologist in the early 1990s, ended up in Iowa, the home of another major figure in the disability movement, Senator Tom Harkin. Began working with him and his leading, uh, staff, Bobby Silverstein, some of you may know, Mark Bristow, who sadly has passed away, and began doing some very early work trying to contribute on what this new law was about and what did it really mean to implement your rights, and what did that mean to companies, and how did they react to it. And, and today many of us have helped to spawn this whole new evidence-based approach to really understanding disability civil rights.

Yeah, yeah, and, and from working with them over these years, that's what caused you to want to do this, Peter, to dedicate your life?

It's always, as you know, a conflux, if that's the right word, of personal and professional Reasons. I first got my PhD at Harvard University in psychology because I thought I wanted to work on mental health issues, which were very prominent to me. And then I quickly got interested in individual rights just before the ADA and went to Stanford Law School, and it just turned out that that meeting of areas was very consistent with many of the aspirations of the Americans with Disabilities Act in terms of desegregation, lack of integration into the community, in terms of access for all, in terms of destigmatizing disability, among which mental health is perhaps among the most stigmatized. Serious mental health and other forms of mental health. And very early on, there was a whole bunch of us, including yourself, Joyce Bender, who were actively working to promote the principles of the ADA, which was, I would say, evolutionary and revolutionary at the time in the early 1990s, because it did build on earlier laws such as the Rehabilitation Act of Section 504, before, but also the world had never seen to that point a truly comprehensive disability civil rights law. So, you know, and in the practical world, as you know, Joyce Bender, once you do something a couple of times, you become known as an expert, and things start snowballing, particularly when you're exposed to amazing people like yourself and Dick and Justin, and the list goes on.

I love Dick Thornburg. I too love Dick Thornburg. I loved him and I just have been so close to him and Jenny, and I was so honored to speak at the Thornburg Lecture Series.

You know, that was one of the greatest— that was one of the greatest honors of my life. I was honored to give the first inaugural Thornburg Lecture. And many people perhaps don't know as well that Dick was governor of Pennsylvania during Three Mile Island, which was America's approach— not quite as bad, thankfully— to Chernobyl. And he saw, not only in his family but himself, the terrific challenges that we faced as a nation. With regard to social justice, environmental justice, disability justice. And you just have to wonder— he had been a commentator, as you know, on CNN for many years— you just have to wonder what he's thinking up there today in terms of the types of challenges we are grappling with as a nation with this pandemic that, of course, is profoundly affecting the lives of those who are most vulnerable to begin with.

Yeah, I know. I was honored also to speak there, but I knew you were the inaugural speaker, and he just a wonderful man, never stopped fighting the fight for People with Disabilities Act, never, never ever. See, he just a wonderful person. I'm blessed to have known him.

Disability rights and civil rights are simply stories of lives, stories of people who refused to be set aside or marginalized or segregated. I remember in the early 1990s when I was in Iowa, I was working early on on the deinstitutionalization movement, which had taken off for years before, but from an ADA perspective to get kids out of institutions and to get them integrated into community settings. And there was terrific resistance, interestingly, from a lot of fronts you wouldn't think, including parents, rightfully so, because there were unknowns. They didn't know what the kids would experience in the community. And the interesting thing from those pioneers, as you know Joyce Bender was, In those early integration efforts, not only did many of them work out, but they served to lead the way, like the disability movement has done generally for so many others, not necessarily with disabilities, in nursing homes, in prison reform, in juvenile justice facilities, all of which have many people with disabilities, but served to lead the way that there were individual rights related to the human experience, the diverse human experience.

Yeah, yeah, that is so true. That's so true what you're saying. And I tell you, Peter, the other day we're looking for office space. Every building I go to, no power-assisted door. Now I'm meaning a few large corporations like a chemical company, no power-assisted door. So there's the accessible parking and there's the Braille, but I have quadriplegia, I can't get into this building. I know that was the one concession, one of the concessions, getting the ADA passed, but I still can't understand how It's possible. Every building I went to, not one, not one had a power-assisted door. I mean office buildings.

Wow. You know, in the, in the 1990s with some other amazing attorneys, there was much litigation, of course, on physical access as you're talking about. I had focused on web accessibility, particularly for people who were blind to begin with and had testified before Congress and so forth with many great people and brought among the first major litigation class action— many people were involved— on behalf of the National Federation of the Blind, led by another amazing partner, Larry Paradis, who passed away, who was the legal director of Disability Rights Advocates, and we won. For the first time under the ADA that the web should be accessible, just like power doors should be accessible to people with disabilities. The point I make though is I don't want to just harp on the past. Today in 2022, we're still litigating that issue. There is still resistance to the idea that the web should be made accessible to everyone. And the courts have been part of the problem in terms of a very narrow reading of the Americans with Disabilities Act.

Yeah, I don't understand it. I do not understand that one either. So there's another one I don't understand. How Tony Coelho was telling me this extremely high percent— percentage of websites not accessible in the United States. How is that possible? I don't know.

Well, Justin Dart, I think, and maybe Evan Kemp or others, I didn't make it up, certainly, used to say, you probably can quote the person, that the disabilities community's dollars, in billions and trillions of dollars around the world, are just as green, or whatever the country's color is, as anybody else. And why in the world would a company want to exclude millions and millions of people from seeing its advertising, from, from going on its website. It's just beyond me because the cost is so minimal. And it's not that different with power doors, which benefit obviously not just you, Joyce, but every— but most people, you know, who have trouble pulling hard doors. Um, and you know, Joyce, it's interesting. You have to think that maybe the market will control because what do you think in this environment where office owners, building owners are losing so much money because they're half empty and people are choosing other options or working from home, wouldn't you think they'd want a competitive advantage and invest in that so that they could differentiate themselves from other businesses? Have you, have you talked about that with them at all?

Yes. I mean, when I went to this one building, I couldn't believe it. You, you, if you— so Tammy Duckworth, Senator Duckworth, would not be able to get in these buildings on her own. I can't. You can't.

What about public buildings, Joyce? What about the public buildings? Same thing or no? You know, courthouse.

Well, there are those that are still the same. You know, for me, I was looking at commercial, but that to me was worse. That I started driving around these big office buildings with my realtor saying, "No, no, no." And when you talk about it, "Oh, wait a minute." And then when I got in there, the restroom's accessible inside if you can get in. Because if you have a significant disability, you cannot get in the bathroom. And how that is not a violation of the ADA, I don't know, but power-assisted doors. Wow.

Well, you know, Joyce, I'm honored to be chairman of the Global Universal Design Commission, which is an international commission, leaders all over the world that focuses on universal design in buildings. And of course, we would hope that many of the broader and forward-thinking landlords would say to themselves, what is it going to take to get people back into my building? You know, forget about disability, but all sorts of people. And why don't I want that competitive edge to make it most usable for everybody? So it's astonishing to me in this climate that you're, you're facing those barriers in Pittsburgh, which is a fairly progressive city in its own right.

Well, as I said, the large corporations in downtown Pittsburgh, yes, they do, of course, have power-assisted doors. But two of these were major corporations, and one was healthcare, with a big sign up for accessible van park here. And yet They do not have a power-assisted door. So, we have to figure out how to do something about that, Peter.

Well, you know, one of the things that my colleagues and I are looking at, we've been very fortunate this year at the Burton Blatt Institute. Burton Blatt was a very well-known disability advocate earlier on than me and you, and he went into institutions with a hidden camera and took— made an exposé of the horrific conditions in institutions in the '70s, which led to— lit the fires of really institutional reform. And the center we direct, which I'm chairman, is a global center really run by people with disabilities and the disability community and very much focused on evidence-based research in this area. Now I'm getting to the point. So we were very fortunate just to win two national centers from the U.S. government to essentially look at the future of work for people with disabilities and how the government should address employment policy, how employers should develop best practices, and we are just beginning these projects in this context of COVID Which of course has changed so much the world. Just think about working from home and hybrid work and the nature of jobs that people with disabilities will undertake going forward. So that's been a very exciting current issue, and we're looking at the whole spectrum of employment issues as well as ways in which we can inform the United States government to be more effective in its disability employment policy. That's funded by the National Institute on Disability, Independent Living, Rehabilitation Research, or NIDILRR.

Well, I've got something for you to look into there, Peter, because I was thinking about this. I thought, okay, I come for an interview for— and these were newer buildings. First of all, no, you The ramp to go in is at the end of the block. You know what I, when I say block, there's the front to get in. Yeah. And then, you know, so you gotta go find it. But if you went on an interview, even if you were early, if it was snowing, you would have to call whomever and hope they answered the phone to come down and let you in. You would not, my employees, with quadriplegia, even paraplegia, uh, would not be able to get in. They would not. To all of these buildings, all of these buildings, getting in and out, you would not. You know, if you had to work late, this would be the nightmare of all time. So I do not—

let me ask you, let me ask you, what, what do you attribute this to? Is it just money? It seems like it can't be because it transcends that. Is that it? Is that really what it is? Yes.

Just my— I mean, I'm sorry to say that, but building the building, and you know what, that's not— isn't that expensive? That's what I don't understand. How expensive can it be to have a power-assisted door? But remember, not just the way in, remember. The bathrooms also. The only reason my building that I was in, that I've been in for 30 years, I'm just now getting smaller space. The only reason there are power-assisted doors outside on my floor and in the bathrooms, the public restrooms, it's because I would not sign the lease unless they agree.

One of the first projects One of the first projects of the Global Universal Design Commission was to work with a gentleman who has passed away, a visionary, Robert Congel, who owned 40 major malls across the United States. He is a billionaire, huge, huge developer. And he came to us and said, I want to get 30,000 more people a day or 50,000 more people a day in all my malls. Who am I excluding and why so I can make more money? And he invested and expected a return in universal design so that his malls could be more profitable. Now, mind you, he was a visionary and a good guy in this regard, but he was a businessman too. My point is, is there no expected return or advantage to these companies or businesses that they can see for that modest investment to add the types of accessibility that you're talking about?

Well, that was the only thing I could think of, is that they are part of, you know, why are people with disabilities have this high unemployment? Why is it that people with a mental health disability do not and will not disclose they have a disability. Stigma. And so my thought is, are they looking at this as, well, you don't see them working anywhere in our building, we don't see them, people don't see them working, people with visible disabilities.

That's an old story, that's an old argument.

So are they looking at us as like that we don't have money to spend. Well, let me tell you what, I guess Las Vegas is smart then. Go to a casino or a hotel and find a place where it doesn't have a power-assisted door. They all have power-assisted doors because they are welcoming people with disabilities to spend money.

Well, they'll take— yeah, exactly right.

I guess they get it, huh?

Wow, they get it. And I'm just surprised in your community that there's not that sense with tax credits and tax deductions and all sorts of incentives. Um, let me ask you another question, Joyce. In this recent infrastructure bill, which is massive, trillion-plus dollars, was there appropriate reference to the needs of individuals with disabilities in this regard? I don't mean specifically for Power door?

Oh no, that's a good question. Yeah, I needed— that is a very good question. Chris Griffin, you're on the line.

Oh my, hello, how's everybody? Happy New Year!

Hold on to your hats, every— hold on to your hats.

Hey Chris, you know, did you hear what we were talking about?

About the buildings?

Yes, yes, that all these buildings I went to yesterday with my realtor, and I'm meaning now, I'm meaning like a chemical company and a healthcare, obviously not these, we're not in downtown Pittsburgh, but big deal, it's 10 minutes from downtown Pittsburgh. So we're not talking like, we're not talking about like Highmark or companies of that name, but, but large chemical company, another large, uh, you know, Fortune 500 company, no power-assisted doors.

You should let your listeners, Joyce, know who we're dealing with here. This is another disability pioneer in the category of Dick Thornburg, but I'll let Joyce give some background.

Oh, Chris Griffin. Chris Griffin. I always say, Chris, they know you by Chris. So Chris Griffin, I'm very fortunate she's working with us now. It's such an honor because Chris worked for EEOC. She was nominated to that, I remember, by Senator Edward Kennedy to, um, and became vice chair. Then after that, she went to deputy director. No, I mean EEOC, were you vice chair?

Oh, yeah, right. Yeah, yes, yeah, under Obama I was vice chair.

Yeah, and then she went to OPM as the deputy director, and she's just done— and before that she worked at independent law centers, and she is just the most dynamic, brilliant person. So, what we were talking about, Chris, is why do these buildings not have power-assisted doors in this day and age?

Because they don't hire people with disabilities, that's why. Because nobody in those buildings hires people with disabilities. And if they did, then they would know that there's a need for these types of accommodations for people. And, you know, as you talk about, Peter, as you talked about you know, federal government employment policy needing to change in light of COVID You know, the fact that, you know, buildings aren't accessible and that, you know, still, I mean, how many years later that buildings aren't fully accessible for people. And now we know people with disabilities can work from home because we've proven that everybody can work from home and be effective and get their job done. You know, isn't this time to be embracing the hiring of people with disabilities? Well— What can we do?

Chris, are they obligated in any way under the ADA to put in power doors?

No. I checked that.

Not really, no.

That was one of the concessions, or they all would be. Yeah, that was one of the concessions, that and that pre-existing condition until Obamacare. But that is—

if not, they would all know there were ways, there were ways, there were ways you could argue it, that, that some buildings would need it and, you know, all that. But it's, you know, it's got to do with door pressure and it's get to do with, you know, the force it takes to open and close doors, and, you know, it gets technical. And you also, I think, could argue that they need to do it if they're spending a certain amount on renovations. But people resist it. They resist it for a lot of reasons, especially on outside doors. Not only the expense, but they have this idea that an outside door. I think they're told by somebody that an outside door that has, um, the mechanism on it that will allow you to open and close it automatically will somehow get, you know, ruined by the weather or the wind. And so they're always afraid to put one in. It's, it's, it's like a, a total miscommunication and And, you know, no education regarding access. When we know, just like the curb cuts, that, you know, every mother with a baby carriage, every father with a baby carriage, everyone that rides a bicycle absolutely loves the curb cuts. You have to fight with people to actually get to use them now. And so people, you know, every delivery person would love an automatic door. Wouldn't that make sense, you know, to have a— a delivery, uh, system for, for, I mean, uh, opening door system for people with, uh, packages or carrying anything.

Amazon, the Amazon people, UPS, FedEx Ground. I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, yeah, because I was telling someone the other day, well, actually a friend of mine pointed out Think of the grocery stores. They all have power-assisted doors. Why is that? Because you have a cart and they want you to be able to get in and out with the cart. It always seems like it is oriented toward money, Peter. That's what you were asking before.

Yeah, you know, Joyce Bender, and just False information.

I'd be interested in your reaction. So, you know, with these new centers we're looking at on the employment issues, it's, it's, it is complicated because you talk about the pandemic and working from home, which of course is true, but it turns out, based on research done by one of my colleagues, Douglas Cruz, very fine economist, used to be on the President's Council of Economic Advisers, that the people who are benefiting the most, relatively speaking, from working from home are not people with disabilities, uh, because they are still working in more service-oriented jobs or jobs in which they have to be on site, which results in this pay gap still. So we have to even go back a step further. To education and training so that more people in the disability community can take advantage of these more flexible work arrangements. Although a lot of people with disabilities, as you guys know, choose flexible home work because of that, on average, most people with disabilities don't have that luxury.

Does that ring true at all? Right, right. I know, and that's why I think we've got to do something within federal disability policy to really make sure employers know that hiring people with disabilities is a benefit to them, especially the fact that they can work from home. You won't have to accommodate them with, you know, not that I'm trying to advocate for you not to put in door openers. But, you know, if someone's working from home, you know, they'll need the accommodations that they need, such as, you know, whether they need, you know, soft— special software, reading packages, things like that. But, you know, there's other things that they won't need because they won't be coming to your building. So—

Former EEOC Commissioner, former EEOC Vice Chair, just so we're clear. If you are working from home, does the employer— and for an employer, does that employer still obligated to provide you certain types of accommodations even though—

Yes, yes, absolutely. You are working from home? Yes, yep, yep. What would be some examples? They still would have to— well, an example would be, you know, software, reading software with some— for someone who's blind or visually impaired.

For somebody else, it may be, you know, um, um, a dictating machine like Dragon Dictate, things like that.

What about things like a standing desk or stuff that has to be put in a home to facilitate you?

I think there's an argument to be made that, that they would have to do that as well. You know, I pay for you to get it done.

Yeah. You know, our research— you know, research also shows that— again, this is Professor Kruse, our colleague— that during the pandemic, and this is across the board, I'd be interested in your reaction for disability, actual productivity levels generally did not decline for people working from home. However, however, they had to work more hours to achieve that same level of productivity. And the obvious question to you is, what's going on? Is it distractions, or, you know, what's causing that? And what's your perspective of that from the disability community?

That's shocking to me because we, you know, because we have had a better year the past more in 2 years than we ever had. And my employees are working from home. And it wasn't that they had to do twice as much. It's that they did extra because of the volume of business. So that's a very interesting what you said.

And do you think Joyce Bender and Chris Bender are working smarter too? Because I know BBI had an extraordinary year and everybody worked from home.

Yeah, I see that. You know, it's funny that I know I'm surprised at that statistic because I have found that, and I, I allowed, as an employer myself, I allowed people to work from home for many years, um, pre-COVID, and I found that people were way more productive because they didn't have to commute. They started working earlier. They didn't come into the office and waste 15-20 10 minutes getting a cup of coffee, chit-chatting. They actually worked longer. And I found this myself as well when I worked from home. I started earlier, I worked later, I was way more productive. And you didn't have the distractions you have in the office. I'm sure there are other distractions like, gee, it's time to clean my refrigerator, but—

Yeah, I know. Hey, before I forget, Perry, Perry, We have Perry back, right, Perry? No, we don't. Oh, we don't have—

well, it's great talking to you both. I'm sure we'll solve these problems.

One more question, Chris. Chris, one more question. We need you with Joyce Bender. Okay, so last question. We're— all of us are trying to read a fuzzy crystal ball. When this pandemic is over, as the optimist that I am, or maybe it's an endemic, becomes like the flu shot every year. Are we going to go back to the way we were, or will we have learned anything that will be relevant to the disability community going forward?

I would say— I would say we are not going to go back as far as, for anyone, not just us, not just people with disabilities. I don't see companies saying Everybody, okay, COVID's gone, everyone come back. I don't see that unless it's that you have to be there, you know, like a healthcare worker or a teller at a bank or whatever it would be. But for people in IT or any of those other roles, I think companies have seen high productivity and now they don't have the office overhead and not only office costs, cost? What about all the people that have to work there to maintain the building? You know, what about the high utility bills? You know, what about, uh, you know, the cafeteria? I mean, I could go on and on.

Joyce, I agree. I couldn't agree more. I don't think we're going to go backwards, and that goes for everyone. I think our problem is going to be getting employers still to hire people with disabilities whether they could work from home or not. It's still the stigma and the discrimination and just the unconscious bias that people have is still going to be our biggest problem.

Now Joyce, in your introduction— stay with us, Chris— you referenced a dozen amazing countries and your partners and so forth. Are our issues unique to America? Or is— are there different issues, obviously, in many different types of countries? Or are they permutations of what we have?

Other countries, many of them, they're 50 years behind us. As Chris and I have talked about, that pervasive shame throughout Asia. There is this shame, you know, whether I was in Japan, South Korea, Indonesia, of admitting that your child has a disability.

And even post-COVID, you think that's going to be as great post-COVID too?

You mean where, in those countries?

Oh yes.

Will the world advance in light of this global health emergency in thinking about disability in somewhat different ways?

Well, I haven't seen it yet. Have you, Chris?

No, I don't, I don't know, you know. I think it's just a matter of a lot of countries being behind us in, you know, in being out about disability and again, as Joyce Bender said, you know, letting it not be so shameful. And I think it's happening in lots of countries. I think young people in lots of countries with disabilities are fighting a fight that we years ago. Um, Andy Alvarado says we're in our teenage years of civil rights, and they're in their infancy of civil rights. And so I think it's going to happen, and it is happening. But, you know, it wasn't that long ago that Irish people that came from Ireland to live in this country were hiding their relatives who had disabilities from their neighbors and from anyone that would come and visit in the house. So Um, you know, we've, we've come a long way, but we got a long way to go.

Yes, we do. Your, your listeners, Joyce, will appreciate that I've taken over the role of interviewer and listening to you guys' pearls of wisdom.

I, oh, I have noticed that. But I do have a— and Chris, Chris, you, you just stay with us till the end of the show. I do have a question. Uh, that for you, Peter, uh, what do you think we have to do? To see an increase, substantial increase, in the employment of people with disabilities? Because go to ODEP's page where they have the statistics, uh, and it's still high, you know, double the unemployment, uh, 70%, uh, not participating in the workforce. What do you think has to happen?

Well, of course, that's the the $64 question, but as, as your listeners know and you know, this is a life cycle, a generational commitment from birth and intervention and education to how we think about governmental supports and safety nets in the United States. The fact of the matter is, Chris and others, and please correct me if I'm wrong, The majority of people who go on the disability Social Security rolls never come off, and the incentives are still— as Andy Imperato would say, you guys would say— we're still paying people not to work. Now, that's a— yes, of course, you may say, well, we're paying people to live in poverty, which is true, um, but still, somehow the incentive structure in our governmental policy has to be changed. President Obama tried it with universal approach to universal healthcare, which of course is a foundational leg of this problem. But at the end of the day, maybe it's just because I'm getting older or tired, I'm still optimistic. Um, it's these gosh darn attitudes which you guys keep talking about. It's just very hard if you are not have a family member or know people with disabilities to make that leap, to make that leap of faith that we are just as competent, just as able, and everybody requires adjustments these days. And until somehow we make that link, it's an uphill challenge. Even in the greatest need for employees right now and a hiring shortage, We have seen very modest, minuscule increases in the employment rate when you see millions of people leaving the workforce and employers desperate for employees. So that's a real deep problem. And there's no, obviously there's no single answer and there's no magic bullet, but it has to start with leadership, leadership at the top. And this administration, I think, can improve its game a little bit, a little bit. I am supportive, but I think the effort could be elevated more. And I don't mean to be overly critical. You guys can shout me down if you think I'm wrong. But this is an opportunity with both houses of Congress and a president who understands these issues to at least try to make some bold advances. What do you think? Am I politically naive?

No, no. Here's— Peter, here's something that I've always thought should happen. I think we should— our government should take the money that they spend on disability employment policy, whether it's how much they spend at the Office of Disability Employment Policy and in various places with Social Security and other agencies that do pay people to not work and to continue to be poor for their whole lives. I think we should take a lot of that money and we should pay employers to hire people with disabilities. Pay them for 1 year, and if that is a good employee in 1 year, then you have to guarantee that you will keep them on, because we have to prove, we have to prove to people, to employers, that people with disabilities can work and be as productive as everybody else. And if we have to prove it by actually— why waste money on employment policy and all this other stuff? You know, we've studied a lot of this stuff to death. All we know is that once we get people in the workforce and they do the same job that their non-disabled counterpart is doing, everyone sort of— the disability disappears and everyone sort of forgets about it and the person is much more integrated into society as a whole when that happens.

Hey Peter, Peter and Chris, I just looked this up. Presently, people Without disabilities, the unemployment rate is now 3.5%, but for people with disabilities, it's 7.9%. 7.9%.

You know, I was gonna—

and that's the people in the workforce, that's the people that are looking for jobs in the workforce. It's much higher. That's what your point—

your point Those points are very well taken, Chris. I was thinking also in terms of leadership, and this comes back full circle to the power-assisted doors. They passed a $1.5 trillion infrastructure bill. Yeah. And shame on us if we don't know that there's something in there to increase accessibility or to increase access. And I don't know the answer to that, by the way.

I don't either, and I'm going to find out. I am going to find that out because Peter That, you know what we need, Chris? We need for ADAPT, AAPD, NCL, all the groups to get together on that one thing. I mean, it's not that big of a deal. But you know what? I mean, and you're still dealing with inaccessible elevators in New York City Metro.

You know what I mean?

Come on.

Yeah. Well, I must tell my listeners this one story. So I went into this one building. I loved it. I wanted to be there. I love this office, but I would need to get into my office a power-assisted door, and I explained why, and they said, okay, well, that shouldn't be that bad. But then I went around to the restroom, and here we have the Braille, but no power-assisted door, and it was heavy. There is no way a person in a wheelchair would ever be able to open this door. And of course, quadriplegia, they wouldn't even try. I thought, okay, great, we have the Braille, but you can't get into the bathroom. You can't use the restroom. So guess what they told me? I could rent there if I would spend $11,000 to fix those two things. If I would pay—

thank you very much.

Of course, that was the end of them. But you know, and then I'm thinking they're a multi-billion-dollar organization and they can't make that— I would be paying to make the public restroom door have the power-assisted door. What do you think about that?

I tell that story, I feel like I'm in a I think that that approaches the line. I have to ask the Commissioner because then they are kind of conditioning your, your, you know, ability to go in that building on you making your own accommodation. Condition— Commissioner, what do you think? And if it's—

yeah, well, that is, that is what they do. And, and so, um, you know, unless, you know, it gets complicated because they're renting space. This is commercial realty., which has different rules, and, um, and they're, they're not the employer. They're looking at Joyce and saying, well, you're the employer of these people, you need to accommodate them, we don't need to accommodate them.

But what about the buildings though, like a chemical company and a health company, a Fortune 500 company that does not have a power-assisted door?

They are preventing people from working. If we could If we could count up just the healthcare buildings in this country that don't have the accessibility that they need for people they know are going to be coming there that need the accessibility, it would be mind-boggling to have that study done and have someone tell us what the answer to that question is. It's just— I mean, healthcare alone.

If I was that building owner, why wouldn't I say, you know what, you make it as accessible as you want, and I'll give you— you spend the money, I'll give you a credit towards your rent for $11,000. You know what you need, you put it in, and I'll credit you that over time, that $11,000. They get a happy tenant, you get employees working, and they don't lose a dime. They amortize it over time. They'd probably get a tax credit.

That would be a great thing to do. Yeah, you know, technically there's no requirement for them to do anything unless they're going to be renovating their building.

Well, guess what? Guess what? Sadly, I know this is— this is so inspiring, but we're at the end of the show. We're at the end of the show, but that doesn't mean this is not going to go away with me. This is not—

unless they'd rather have Unless they'd rather have empty office space, they better get their act together.

Yeah. Well, Peter and Chris, thank you.

You can write an article for the Pittsburgh Gazette.

Okay. All right, you guys are great, and this has been a fantastic show.

Yeah, and I end every show with a quote, and today that quote is, if we've assumed we've arrived, we stop searching. We stop developing, said Ms. Burnell. This is Joyce Bender, America's Voice, where disability matters, at voiceamerica.com. See you next week, and in Mary Brooker's words, choose joy. Bye-bye.

Voice America would like to thank you for tuning in. Please join us next Tuesday at 11 AM Pacific Time and 2 PM Eastern Time for another installment of Disability Matters right here on the Voice America Variety Channel. We are the leader in live internet talk radio. VoiceAmerica.com.