Mission of Disability:IN and the 2025 Global Conference and Expo

Welcome to Disability Matters with your host Joyce Bender. All comments, views, and opinions expressed on the show are solely those of the host, guest, and callers. Now the host of Disability Matters, here's Joyce Bender.

Hey everyone, hi and welcome to the show. How are you today? I hope everyone had a great holiday. A blessed Passover or happy Easter to everyone. Hopefully you're not all like gaining 100 pounds from that delicious candy that all parents pretend are for their children, but really they choose the type of candy they like. But I also want to send a special shout out to all of my friends throughout the world. You know, we originally had 17 countries, and that moved up to over 100 countries with listeners. And I always have to give a shout out to my good friend Richard Roberts in Brazil with the State Department, and Gang Yong Cho in South Korea with the State Department, and really all of my friends from Indonesia to Japan to Kazakhstan to Panama, the U.S. State Department, when they get a request for an expert on the employment of people with disabilities, they often ask me to go. So I have been, I have been absolutely just overwhelmed with what they have done because I always say people with disabilities, anywhere in the world are like my brothers and sisters. Everyone deserves to work. Everyone deserves to have dignity and respect, no matter who they are with a disability or what country they are in. So I want to thank all my listeners internationally. You know, Germany, wow, big listening audience there. I really appreciate it in really all countries, no matter which one it is, such as Brazil. Please let people know who have disabilities English-speaking sources or translation sources where they can hear this show because we want everyone to know they can make a difference. Then, okay, my special shout out on every show to Yoshiko Dart, who I know right now has a big smile on her face and is saying, "Lead on, Joyce." I know you are, Yoshiko. You know I love you. I always mention Yoshiko for years now on every show. She is the wife of the late, great Justin Dart Jr., and I am trying to stress in our education system, in civil rights history, you have to include people with disabilities. You know, do they know who Justin Dart is? Do those students know? I mean, they know other, other civil rights leaders, but do Disability rights are civil rights. So that's the reason I always mention Yoshiko. And then our great sponsor, oh my goodness, Highmark has been the lead, I mean the all-year sponsor for several years. However, if anyone wants to be a sponsor on the show, please feel free to get in touch with me., and we'll, we'll connect you with Voice America. So I am so excited about the show today. Why? Because Cammie is probably tired, totally, totally, totally tired of hearing me say, and I am the first Dobe, because no matter where I go, I'm telling people I am the first Dobe, and I have it in here somewhere. I have a pin I wear. That says first, DOBE. And that would be what? A disability-owned business enterprise. As you all know, I'm living with epilepsy, I'm hard of hearing, and I'm on a crusade to find employment for people with disabilities in the STEM and healthcare area. But you know what? I, I love disability, and I love this DOBE program. And are we not excited to have the recently promoted, and I think longest, longest employee ever with us today, Senior Vice President Cami Turcotte, and just a great friend, wonderful person who's dedicated her life to helping Dobies and Adobe. How about that? We have Rosemarie Rossetti, Dr. Rosemarie Rossetti, with us today on the show. So we could also hear from Adobe that we have on the show. So both of you, welcome. I'm starting with the superstar, Cami. Cami, if you could tell our listeners first a little bit about you, because what happens, I have a show, and then people say, oh, that person was really interesting, or wow, they're really great. I don't— tell me about them. So I'm gonna let you tell them about Tammy. So could you like give a little bit of your story, where you grew up, went on to school, you know, just a, a little snapshot of Tammy?

Sure, Joyce. Thanks so much for having me on today. Um, Kami Turcotte, Senior Director of Supplier Inclusion and Disability IN. I have been with the organization, as Joyce mentioned, since 2012, so for a few minutes. Originally from South Florida, have kind of bounced around over the course of my adult life, and I currently reside outside of Jacksonville, Florida. A little bit about me, probably outside of work, is really kind of the gym, being outdoors. I have a number of dogs. 2 teenage boys, and, um, I love all things sports. So we're getting ready to have the draft this week, which is a huge exciting thing for me. And, um, you know, I just—

Thursday night, I know, I'm so excited. I have to be watching this. I have to be watching.

Yeah, so it's a big week for us football fans. But, um, love my, my poor Jacksonville Jaguars, which are struggling. And, um, I did go to Florida State University, so unfortunately football has been kind of a subject, but I do love football, baseball, golf, hockey, tennis, you name it, I probably watch it or play it. So, um, I'm just so delighted to be here today with Rosemary and, um, be able to kind of tell you guys a little bit about me and the program and the organization and what we do.

Oh, that's great. What kind of dogs do you have? Just so you know, veterinary consulting are like a dog. A pet company.

I love that. I would fit in perfectly. I have 4 dogs. Um, I have little Lola, who's probably currently walking circles around my feet. She's a little Chihuahua who's very elderly at this point. Um, I have Moose, who's, uh, a bulldog, and then I have a hound dog, a blue tick, and then I have Liesel, my black lab, who's kind of my— she's my special girl. She is a black lab. She's about 85 pounds, but, um, was hit by a car before I got her. So she's a paraplegic pup. So she's a wheelie baby. So she has a wheelchair that we use for her walks, but she gets around pretty much with her upper body around the house during our normal day-to-day. But she's just the sweetest girl and has a very special place in my heart, obviously based off of the work I do. I treat her just like all the rest of my dogs, but she is— I don't wanna cry. She's my special girl. I just love her so much. So those are my—

Oh, that is great. She's a Bender dog. She is a Bender dog. You know what? Everyone here is gonna love you as soon as I tell them that, because anyone that does something like that— I have two Yorkies. They too are older. Buddy is the loving dog and Jasmine is the diva. I even said the next time I get a little dog like a Yorkie, that's gonna be their name, Diva, because it seems like that always happens. Yeah. But That, that is awesome. So I know that probably every night you watch the Pittsburgh Pirates, right, Kim?

Maybe not every night, but I have been. I have been to the ballpark. I had some very good friends of mine that used to live in Pittsburgh, so I have been to the ballpark. Yes, it's a great field. It is wonderful view.

Oh, I'll tell you, we are— this is— I'm a true fan. Okay. If you were looking in my office, you would see Roberto Clemente and all these pictures and all these bobbleheads. I am one of the two fans in Pittsburgh of the Pirates, but I'm like that hardcore fan. I'm like the Cubs fan used to be. So I too like sports, Cami. But I am so excited. We also have Rosemary, who is such a nice person. To begin with, with us today. So Rosemarie Rossetti, Dr. Rosemarie Rossetti, welcome to the show. I bet you didn't know, oh, I'm going to get on today and be heard in Germany, but you are being heard everywhere. So how about your story, Rosemarie? Let's hear your story and then what you do, your company, what you do.

Well, thank you, Joyce. I am speaking to you today from my home in Columbus, Ohio, from my wheelchair. I have a spinal cord injury and am paralyzed from the waist down due to a biking accident. While riding my bike in '98, I was struck by a 7,000-pound tree and instantly paralyzed from the waist down. I live in a beautiful home It is a national demonstration home and garden, the Universal Design Living Laboratory, and anyone can take a virtual tour of our home on our website at udll.com. You'll understand, um, my excitement as I'm talking about the house. It'll be 13 years since we moved in, but it took us 32 months to build it. And it was a 10-year journey from the time we hired the architect until finally we finished the home and had the public tours. The house is totally set up for universal design, not only for me in my wheelchair, and I'm about 4 foot 1 as a seated person, but get this, my husband Mark, he is 6 foot 4, so the house had to be of course, accommodating all people of all abilities. And you'll understand when you take the virtual tour at our website that this house has some features in the design that really accommodate people throughout their lifetime.

Well, that is, um, I, I didn't know that. I didn't know you have that. Uh, once again, how can someone take that tour?

Just go to udll.com. It stands for the Universal Design Living Laboratory. There's a virtual tour. There's over 700 photos. And if you're a cat lover, you'll see the photobomber throughout the virtual tour. She was running loose that day. So you'll go in different rooms and see a cat in the background. There's also a free copy of my book, The Universal Design Toolkit, which I recommend you download because then you'll see the universal design features on that virtual tour room by room, so you'll understand what makes this home livable for a lifetime with accessibility in mind.

Oh, that— I guess you get that on Amazon, Rosemarie, the book?

The book is at Amazon in a printed material, but you can also get it as a PDF at our website.

Okay, well, what is the name again?

Universal Design Toolkit.

Universal Design Toolkit. Well, everyone, it's so great today to have these two on with me, but right now we're gonna go to break and then we'll be right back with Cammie and Rosemary. This is Joyce Bender. America's Voice, where disability matters, at voiceamerica.com. Don't go away, we'll be right back with Cammie and Rosemary.

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You're listening to Disability Matters.

Now please welcome back the host of Disability Matters, Here's Joyce Bender.

Hi everybody, welcome back. We're talking to Cammie Turcott and Rosemarie Rossetti, Disability-Owned Business Enterprise, and Cammie is the person at Disability Inc. running all of this. So, uh, Cammie, for our listeners, would you tell everyone what Disability Inc. Is and what type of programs they have.

Absolutely. So Disability:IN is a national— well, I would say national/global nonprofit. We work in the business space, and our mission is really focused around educating corporations and entities that want to be more disability inclusive, how to hire folks with disabilities, how to work with companies owned by folks with disabilities. Benchmarking to understand how, you know, how good they're doing or where they need work, or some things that maybe are challenging for them and how they can really increase either participation or really kind of increase the work they're doing in specific spaces. And really, most of the program we have is everything from, again, benchmarking. We have a workforce program which is really focused around hiring individuals, what that looks like, sounds like, feels like, where to find those people. We also have our Next Gen program, which is a really popular program for college-age students that are looking to kind of take the next step into the business world or into a career path. And so they sign up, they go through a process, and are typically aligned with a mentor, which hopefully for them leads to an internship or employment eventually. So we've got that program. We also have Let's see here. We've got accommodations and accessibility, which is led by Jeff Whistle on our team that really focuses on helping companies really better understand how to be more accessible across the enterprise. So again, whether that's when they're hiring employees, what their workplace looks like, or if that's specific accommodations, you know, and kind of help them along that journey. We also have our global program, which is led by Leslie Wilson. And we have a number of events this year. I think there are 5 or 6 roundtables that are big that will be going on outside the US, focused again in specific markets of AMEA. I believe there's also one in APAC, which is Asia Pacific. And I believe we have one more, and I want to say that focuses India, which I know is kind of in between both of those markets. So we do a lot of things across the globe, are expanding more into that space. And I would be reluctant not to say that our certification program, which is our Supplier Inclusion Program, which I lead— Rosemary and Joyce Bender are both DOBEs in the program— works with disability-owned business enterprises to help them leverage a certification which helps corporations identify suppliers that are living with a disability that also own their own business, to really kind of connect them where there are potential business opportunities, development opportunities for them to really kind of grow their businesses and hopefully add additional clientele to their client base. So that's a little bit about us.

Well, you know, like your conferences, approximately how many people go? And I know there's one coming up in Orlando in July, is that right?

That is correct. July 14th to 17th, we'll be in Orlando at the Gaylord Palms Hotel. Well, actually convention center slash hotel.

OK, how many people approximately attend?

I believe last year we had about 4,000 total. I want to say between 2,500 and 3,000 in person, and I believe we had an additional 500 to 1,000 virtually. So it really varies, but Orlando is a pretty popular spot, so we tend to have really great attendance. So I think we'll probably be on path to be around the same numbers this year, but we'll see as things kind of move forward.

Uh, well, I was involved with disability in when it was USBLN way back, and if they had 100, 100-some people at these events. Now, when I walked in last year to the conference, I walked in and I said Wow. I feel like we no longer can have tables where we all sit together because there's no space. There's so many people to go that it's sold out. And I remember saying to Gerald, wow, by the time I get to the front, I will have walked my 10,000 steps. I mean, it is so much bigger. It is really great. And I don't know, would you say like 500 companies about or 600 companies?

Yeah, I would say between those two numbers. You know, it's kind of a giant family reunion, as you know, Joyce. So we always encourage folks to bring as many people from their teams that they're able to because it's a great experience for the week. And this year we aren't limited by the space we have like we were last year. So we're hoping that everybody, you know, plans to attend even if it's virtually and invite their colleagues or team members and you know, come join us. It's a great experience.

Well, you know, I just wanted to say about that, that it is amazing how companies bring so many people. So like, if you're listening wondering, well, how did they have so many attendees? And now you're saying 600 because they all bring people. I mean, I remember going there when like Northrop Grumman would have like 60 people there. I mean, companies bring a lot of people to this. And, you know, I always feel like I'm going to, you know, a class reunion, although it's a very big class reunion because a lot of people know me and I know a lot of people there. And I— paycheck's not pity, you know my saying, paycheck's not pity, and sign the contract. So how about you Rosemarie, have you been to a lot of the conferences or just recent?

I just went once, um, and it was the first time meeting a client that I had worked with, and I got the business through Disability:IN. It was Starbucks, and so the representatives were actually there. I got to actually hug them and thank them. I worked with them on a major project where they were redesigning the Starbucks locations for the backend, for the employees with disabilities. And so it was a major project. I was one of many accessibility specialists, um, as well as their baristas and their top leaders. And if this went on for many weeks, it was all virtual to rethink the design of the, um, the space for the customers, the design of the coffee machines, the design of everything that the people in the backend, all the employees did, not only making coffee, but also serving the customers and cleaning the restrooms. Um, and as a result, their new location opened in Washington, DC, close to the Gallaudet University, and that was their first new prototype using the ideas from this particular project.

I know that one. Yeah, that is awesome. I love going there to the— I don't know if anyone here has been to the Starbucks in D.C., which has all deaf people running the organization. They were the most profitable Starbucks during the pandemic. That one. So, great, great job. Well, I always tell people that, you know, there was a time that we still have this incredibly high unemployment rate for people with disabilities, but when it was even higher, which is hard to believe, but it was right after the ADA, people with disabilities, there wasn't really this whole concept of doobies. So, you know, a lot of people went into their own business. You know why? Because they couldn't get a job. So they couldn't get a job. So that's the job. They created the job. And so I will say now, though, if you are listening to the show and you are thinking, wow, this could be an opportunity for me to meet a lot of people, which it is, get in touch with Cami at disabilityn.org. And there's probably a contact page site there, Cammie.

Yeah, I can, I can send it to you, Joyce. Okay, I'll send it in the chat.

Okay, all right, that's good. Well, I have a close friend, she's like my sister, that will be talking to Cammie, who is also an accessibility superstar. As a matter of fact, she was the person that the Pirates retained to put together that beautiful park. And we were and are still, I think, the most accessible stadium in the United States, you know, with chargers, battery chargers for the wheelchair, with seats that turn if you're signing, with, of course, captioning, you know, on the screen way back when we first started in 2000. So, and she does work with the PGA. So she is going to be just an example of someone when I told them about this program, so excited. So look out for Joan Stein coming your way, Cammie, to talk about all of this. But it is that time. I love this time. We are the only place in anywhere in the world that every week has a newscast about what's happening in the disability community. The only place you— we don't have like, uh, oh yes, tonight on CNN you're going to hear about what's happening in the disability community, but we do that, and we have done that faithfully for years. And now, oh my God, we have Jennifer Mathis. Jennifer Mathis, Mathis on the mic. Jennifer, if you don't know, is like an extremely well-known, highly thought of disability leader superstar from the department— with, prior to this, Department of Justice, now with the Bazelon Center on Mental Health Law. But when we got her to do this, oh, I was so excited because it's Jennifer Mathis. Welcome, Jennifer. I always tell people it's like getting Rachel Maddow. I have Jennifer Mathis. So Jennifer, how are you today?

I'm good. Thank you. I am no Rachel Maddow, but I am happy to be here. Good.

Good. Well, listen, Jennifer, what news do you have for us and our listeners?

Today. So I thought that I would talk today a little bit about the HHS 504 rule litigation that's happening. That is a case that I know a lot of people in the disability community have been following. Um, it used to be called Texas versus Becerra. It's now called Texas versus Kennedy. And what This is, is a lawsuit that was brought by Texas and 16 other states that are challenging HHS's updated regulation that they issued in May of 2024, implementing Section 504 of the Rehab Act. Um, and the lawsuit challenges the regulation as well as Congress's enactment of Section 504 itself. So this is obviously critically, critically concerning to the disability community. Section 504 has been the bedrock of our rights even before we had the ADA. We had Section 504. The ADA was based on Section 504. And so the idea that 17 states are asking a federal court to invalidate an entire regulation that cuts across many different areas, as well as to invalidate the statute that we've had for more than 50 years, um, is distressing many in the disability community. So, um, I will provide an update. I think it is worth providing updates periodically on this. It's a very, very important news item. And so let me just give you a tiny bit of background. You know, you could do a whole show on this, but I will just give you like a highlight about this rule and also about some recent developments. So the rule was very broad. It updated the HHS 504 regulations.

Give me one minute, Jennifer. For our listeners, since we have listeners around the world, throughout the United States, would you mind explaining to them what 504 is?

Yeah, yeah. So Section 504 is a law that was passed in 1973. It's Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act, and the Rehabilitation Act was a law that was primarily about things like vocational rehabilitation services. But back in 1973, when they passed the Rehabilitation Act, when Congress passed the Rehabilitation Act, they included a section called Section 504 that said that entities that get federal funds, and it was later updated to say as well as federal executive branch agencies, can't discriminate based on disability. And so that has been in law for many, many years. Um, was originally 1973 that the Rehabilitation Act was passed, and so we've had Section 504 since 1973. So it celebrated the 50th birthday, 50th anniversary, uh, a couple of years ago. And so here we are with 17 states saying that that law is no longer good law and that HHS's rule implementing that law is no good and should be struck down in its entirety because it's illegal. So that rule, um, which as I said was passed last year, that updated HHS's prior rules because HHS, like most agencies, had done a regulation to implement Section 504 a long time ago, right, in the 1980s. And that's when most of the agencies' Section 504 rules were enacted, in the 1980s. So it had been 40 years since that rule had been updated. So HHS said, we're going to update that rule in light of all the things that have happened, you know, since then. And so we're going to provide some basic updates, and we're also going to talk about some new areas like discrimination based on disability in medical treatment. We had seen that during COVID um, and there were issues around people with disabilities, um, being last in line in these crisis standards of care and these protocols for what happens during a pandemic if there's not enough ventilators or there's not enough hospital beds. And so that was very concerning. They talked about child welfare systems and disability discrimination in those systems. They talked about the integration mandate because the Olmstead decision had come down since the original HHS 504 regulations, and HHS funds much of the disability service systems that are subject to the integration mandate. And so they talked about web accessibility. Lots and lots of important stuff in that rule. And so 17 states said the rule has to go and the law has to go. They said the law was unconstitutional because, uh, Congress exceeded its power in passing the law. So I have a little bit of good news to share on that lawsuit, which is that Just this month on April 11th, the states who have been filing these things periodically with the court, they file these joint status reports together with the federal government saying we want to keep this case on hold. HHS is considering its position now that it's a new administration because this lawsuit was filed at the end of the last administration. It was filed in September of 2024. So since the Trump administration has come in, HHS has said, we are considering our position. One of the things that they focused very heavily on in this lawsuit is that there was a very brief discussion in the preamble of this rule that talked about gender dysphoria. And it said that there was a case in the Fourth Circuit that said gender dysphoria may be a disability in some circumstances protected by 504. And so the state said, we think that's wrong. And the preamble of the rule is not actually the rule itself. This discussion was only in the preamble or the introduction to the rule, but they said the whole rule has to go. They said that's wrong. They said we think the integration mandate language in the rule is wrong. The, the language in the rule that talked about how covered entities under 504 need to administer services to people with disabilities in the most integrated setting appropriate, which is basically what the Supreme Court said in the Olmstead decision. And so they called that into question. They called the whole rule into question. As I started to say, on April 11th, they filed a joint status report saying to the court, we are no longer challenging the constitutionality of the law itself. So that's good news. That happened because a lot of people in the disability community have been advocating with those states and those governors and those state attorneys general to stop pursuing this lawsuit, to stop attacking Section 504, and to stop attacking the rule. So it's partially good news. They stopped attacking the law itself. They're still attacking the rule. So that lawsuit continues. It's still on hold. What they said also this month was HHS filed something in the Federal Register saying, we no longer agree. Now that we're in the Trump administration, we no longer agree with what we said during the last administration about gender dysphoria. Being a disability in some circumstances. And so we are moving— we have moved away from that position. So what that means is that is no longer part of the case because the parties, we think they are wrong, but they both are saying that they don't disagree anymore. They all think that gender dysphoria— they— when I say all, I mean the 17 states and the current HHS are saying that they don't recognize gender dysphoria as being a disability under any circumstances. So what that means is that the case is now— it's not about the statute anymore, the law itself. It's not about the gender dysphoria part of the preamble, the introduction to the rule. It's about the rule itself, and primarily it's about integration, community integration, inclusion. That's the stuff that is most talked about in that complaint that was filed in federal court. That's, that's what the— what's left for the most part in this lawsuit. The rule is a lot bigger than just integration. We don't know all the things they would say in the lawsuit once— if they actually start litigating it, but certainly look, reading what they have written so far, it's mostly about the integration mandate. So that is very, very concerning. And as I said, they're asking for the entire rule to be struck down. So What the next steps are, HHS could do a number of things as the case continues to be on hold and they continue to file these reports periodically with the court, updating the court on the status of it. There's a couple of things that could happen. So one is that Texas and the other states could decide that they have mostly gotten what they wanted and they could settle with the Trump administration and be done with it and leave the rule alone. Or HHS could decide to make changes to the rule. We don't know what those would be. Um, normally you would have a process where you would have public comment on those changes. We've all been through that process where we You know, they put something out for public comment in the Federal Register, and we send in comments, and they have to consider your comments. This is a long— this longer discussion than we have time for here, but HHS has signaled it might not do that in a lot of matters. So it's possible they could try to change things, that rule, without public comment. We don't know. But they might change the rule. Um, we might see a settlement then, or they could defend the rule in court. So any of those things could happen. I think right now, even where we are, the biggest thing that people should think about at this point, and the best thing for people to do, is if you live in one of those 17 states— and I will tell you what they are— Tell your governor, tell your state attorney general to back off of attacking Section 504, attacking the core disability rights protections in our federal law, and stop challenging HHS's 504 rule. Our rights are too important. So I'm going to tell you the states And then I'm gonna help— I'm gonna give you a website to go to that gives you all the attorneys general contact information. The 17 states are Texas, Alaska, Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, South Carolina, South Dakota, Utah, and West Virginia. Those are the 17 states that are challenging HHS, the Department of Health and Human Services, regulation that implements Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act that says, um, federal— federally funded entities cannot discriminate against people based on their disabilities in HHS's programs. In HHS— I'm sorry, not HHS's programs, in HHS's funded programs and activities. And so that those are the states that are involved. If you go to the Disability Rights Education and Defense Fund website. They have a list, uh, dredf.org. They have a list of all of the attorneys general of all of those 17 states. They have their email contact information, who to contact if you want to contact the attorney general in that state and say please, please do not continue to challenge this rule. Please, these are important rights for people with disabilities, and we ask you to back off of the lawsuit, right? Oh, stop pursuing the lawsuit. Um, that is what people who care about this, which should be everybody in the disability community can do right now. We have had, I think, a significant impact so far. The fact that the states backed off of challenging the law itself, and they're only challenging the rule at this point, that shows the power of the disability community's advocacy. And we aren't done, but that shows that we are having an impact. And I will provide updates periodically on this because this is so important, but I wanted to make that the news item for today.

Well, thank you so much. And see why Jennifer needed to talk about this. Once you destroy 504, the ADA is next. So, I mean, this would hurt so many people with disabilities in so many ways. Please go to DREDF, D-R-E-D-F, dot org, and look at that site. I really— don't sit back, make sure you do something. And Jennifer, on every show give us an update because this is, how should I say this, the breaking news in the disability community from all the leaders that get in touch with me. So please, and thank you, Bazelon. I'm so honored to be on the board, but Jennifer, everything you're doing there, thank you, thank you. But you're my, you're my, you're my anchor. Don't forget that, Jennifer. Okay, well, Cammie, what do you think about that?

Very interesting, to say the least. As a mom with 2 kids, one of which had to utilize some of those resources during his duration in school, that, that's really disheartening and unfortunate. So I've already got the website up. We'll just say that.

Thank you.

Thanks for all the great information, Jennifer.

Absolutely. How about you, Rosemary?

What do you think?

Well, I'm glad that my home state, Ohio, is not on that list. And it's, it's amazing that that powerful group has already made progress in making the news. Let's hope it stopped and no other state joins their effort. I can't understand the philosophy of people who are making this decision. It's obvious they just don't understand what life with a disability is about and the importance of programs and federal funding for these programs.

Well, this would definitely hurt children with disabilities, school systems, so many things. Uh, I mean, it's so involved. And once again, if you're listening, We're talking about Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act. So if you go to Google, put that in, Rehabilitation Act Section 504, you know, you can read about the act and see how vitally important that is to everyone. And you know, here's the thing, I'll have people say to me, oh, that's really terrible, that's terrible. And I'll say, okay, what are you doing about Are you calling your senator? Are you calling your congressman? Are you calling your governor? I'm fortunate too, Rosemary, that I'm in Pennsylvania, but I knew we wouldn't be on that list with Governor Shapiro and, you know, the people in this state. But I care about my employees and people across the United States. You know, Tammy's child, Rosemary, everything that you stand for. I mean, you know, people with disabilities have a hard enough time getting a job, and let's just make it worse than it already is. So please, please, please, please, if you're in one of those states, get that website up the way Cammie did and get in touch with your attorney general, because you know what? It makes a difference. It makes a difference to politicians when they hear from their constituents. Senator Harkin told me once, one of the most powerful things— and people don't realize this— is when a constituent gets— actually takes time to get in touch with them, because they know if you've taken time to do that, oh, this is really serious, this is really important. So please do not underestimate that Jennifer, would you agree with that?

Oh, absolutely. I think that the disability community can have enormous power. They need to use it, and it matters, definitely matters for people to hear from you people in Congress and people in the states. And on this one, it's mostly people in the states, the governors and the attorney general.

Now, could other states join this, or is this pretty much— no, it's pretty much that's it.

We don't have to worry about it. Yes, I think this is it. States could pull themselves out of this lawsuit if they wanted to. And there were some of those 17 states had made some noises about potentially pulling out. A couple of the state attorneys general had said they were going to pull out, but they didn't end up doing that. So we need to continue to advocate.

So that's what you'll be saying. That's what you all will be saying in your email. You'll be saying, pull out. Yes. Don't do it. Get out of this right now. Um, Jennifer, just so everyone can understand, what are some— give me— give them like 2 examples of some of the things they would lose if this was—

yeah, so I, I mentioned a couple things before. Um, one is the integration mandate. Um, and so the integration mandate means that anybody that's covered by Section 504 has to comply with that rule, and among other things, it says that these entities have to administer their services in the most integrated setting appropriate for people with disabilities. Now, mind you, we still have the ADA, and the ADA applies to a lot of the entities that— well, pretty much all the entities in some way or other, either Title II of the ADA, different parts of the ADA apply to these various entities that are covered by this HHS 504 Rule, but there are a lot of reasons why it still matters that we keep the protections under Section 504. One is what you said is if they can destroy Section 504, they will go after the ADA next, right? And so that is important. Also, Section 504 has some remedies that are stronger than some parts of the ADA. So when you're talking about private entities under— that are covered under this rule that get federal money, like say schools, um, then private schools, the remedies are often stronger under Section 504 than they are under the part of the ADA that would apply to private entities, to Title III of the ADA. So Title III of the ADA doesn't have any money damages in it, so that makes it harder to bring claims under that part of the ADA than under 504. So it's very important, even if we have the ADA, to say— to continue to safeguard those rights under 504. So what could be impacted? Rights in schools, right? Section 504 plans. In schools for kids who are not getting an IEP, might not be covered by IDEA. There are lots and lots of kids who get coverage under 504, who get accommodations in school and get services under Section 504 that help them learn. Um, kids and adults that need to get services in their own communities at home and not in an institution or in a segregated setting. That's the integration mandate. People who need accessible websites. Say you have a private doctor's office and— or a public healthcare entity, but there you're covered by Title II also. In Title II, we have a new web rule, web accessibility rule. This HHS rule extends to entities that are not even covered by that Title II rule. It would be Title III of the ADA. They still have to comply with web access under the ADA, but there's no standard yet under Title III of the ADA. So under 504, this rule sets standards for what it means, what what websites have to do to be accessible, what they have to look like for people with disabilities, like blind folks who are using screen readers and sometimes can't fill out the forms, like to, to get, um, a vaccination appointment. A lot of those web portals were inaccessible to people who used a screen reader. And sometimes to people who use software because they couldn't use a mouse because of a disability. So super, super important to have standards for what a healthcare entity, what an entity that is funded by HHS funding has to do to ensure that its websites and its mobile apps are accessible to people with disabilities. Those are some of the things are the things that would be lost if this rule were to go away.

Terrible, terrible. Well, I want to say, okay, Cammie Turcotte, disabilityn.org. I don't think I do— Rosemarie Rossetti, what's your website?

It's easy, it's rosemariespeaks.com. R-O-S-E-M-A-R-I-E-S-P-E-A-K-S.com.

Okay, and listen, if you're a disability-owned business enterprise, you've got to get in touch with Cammie. If you're interested in this universal design or a tour of a magnificent example, get in touch with Rosemarie. And we're coming to the end of the show, but listen, everyone, dredf.org if you're in one of those 17 states. And with that, we end. Thank you so much, Jennifer. Well, Jennifer, next week we want to hear more. Every so often. This is so important. Our quote. We end every show with a quote. "There is no human being from whom we cannot learn something if we are interested enough to dig deep," said Eleanor Roosevelt. This is Joyce Bender. America's Voice, where disability matters, at voiceamerica.com. And in the words of Mary Brooker, when you go out today, remember, choose joy. Talk to you all next week.

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