Mission of the Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law

Welcome to Disability Matters with your host Joyce Bender. All comments, views, and opinions expressed on the show are solely those of the host, guest, and callers. Now the host of Disability Matters, here's Joyce Bender.

Hey everyone, welcome to the show today. To everyone in the United States and the countries around the world that listen to this show from China, largest audience, to Saudi Arabia with one listener. One listener makes a difference. One listener can get it started. Remember that. And thank you all very much spreading quality of life for people with disabilities. Special shout out to Richard Roberts, Gangyang, respectively, in Japan and in South Korea. My new friends from Libya, Cheryl Harris in Tunisia, and Venyamin in Kazakhstan. So if you wonder who these people are, they're all with the State Department, and they have all had me go to the country and speak, or With Tunisia and Libya, we are doing virtual presentations. So awesome to spread that news about the employment of people with disabilities and quality of life for people with disabilities. Then we have to have a shout out to Yoshiko Dart. Yoshiko, always with me, always supporting the show. So awesome, Yoshiko is. And to my sponsor, lead sponsor, Highmark. Highmark Blue Cross Blue Shield, one of the greatest companies in America that always hires people with disabilities. Thank you so much, Highmark. And we have a new uh, sponsor for a couple months, and it is Morgan O'Brien. That's right, One Man, One CEO, Peoples, and now Watts Fuel Cell. Thank you so much, Morgan. Well, I am very excited about the show today because we have guests from a board that I am so proud to serve on. Holly O'Donnell, the CEO of the Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law and just an extraordinary person, and board member with a very powerful personal story, Harvey Rosenthal. Holly and Harvey, welcome to the show.

Thank you.

Thank you, Joyce Bender. Good to be here.

Well, we'll start with you, Holly. Would you take a few minutes to tell our listeners about your role at Bazelon and also what brought you to the organization?

Of course. Um, well, first I want to thank you, Joyce, for having Harvey and me on your show today, and thank you for serving on the Bazelon Center's Board of Trustees. So, for 2 years, I've served as the President and CEO of the Bazelon Center. My role, along with the team and our board members like you and Harvey, is to protect and advance the rights of people with mental disabilities. And I joined the Bazelon Center because it's the leading advocate for independence, inclusion, and the rights of people with mental disabilities. And quite frankly, I joined at a time, 2 years ago, when making sure that protecting those rights through law and advocacy was really critical.

And you are doing a great job, Holly. We are so lucky to have you. You have really built up the organization, and oh, how important this is. It has always been important supporting people with mental disabilities, but now with COVID it is even more important with what— people isolated. Are going through. And Harvey, what about you? What brought you to the organization?

Well, I'm a person in recovery and in my personal recovery and in my work as working as an advocate and in services, the Bazelon Center has always looked to be the very beacon, premier organization in the country fighting for rights with people with psychiatric disabilities. So they're really the playbook for folks like me who are trying to be advocates advocates and looking to do our best work. They were the— they've been the source and their record is extraordinary and I'm just so proud to have been on the board all these years.

Well, and we're thrilled that you have been on the board all these years. Holly, you have a lot of programs that I'm so proud of at Bazelon and before we go any further, Holly, what is our website? The Bazelon website?

Our website is www.bazelon.org, and I'm going to spell Bazelon, so it's www.b-a-z-e-l-o-n dot o-r-g.

Okay, why I asked Holly to do that, you know, people, you know, they People will say things like, "Oh, we need to help people with mental disabilities more. Why aren't organizations doing more about that? Why am I not seeing that more from the government?" Well, you know, that's what Bazelon does. But guess what? Bazelon can't do that without money. I am saying that because people forget, you know, they stand back and make all these comments of what an organization should or should not be doing, but they can't run this. It really, people forget, it is like a for-profit company, except they don't use it the same way, but it's money coming in helps these programs that we have. So, if you get a chance, make a contribution. Okay, Holly, what are some of those programs at Bazelon?

Sure.

So our main programs are litigation, legal advocacy at the federal, state levels, and we do technical assistance with jurisdictions, and we do, do some individual cases. So one of the main ways to think about it is that we help promote integrated and independent living in all aspects of society through legal and policy advocacy. And we're working on a wide range of issues. And our top focus areas right now are the pressing issues of our time, you know, really making sure that people with disabilities receive the care that they need and are not discriminated against in this global pandemic. We've also worked on criminal justice reform for a long time, and for us this means stopping the cycle that people experience of jail, ER, psych hospitals, and homelessness. And so this work that we're doing in criminal justice reform is supported by some large foundations like the MacArthur Foundation Safety Justice Challenge and the Ford Foundation. And in fact, last July, the Bazelon Center, along with our partners Disability Rights California and Disability Rights Education Defense Fund and our pro bono law firm, filed a federal lawsuit under the Americans with Disabilities Act against Alameda County and Alameda Health System. And the lawsuit challenges the unnecessary and illegal segregation of people with mental disability— mental health disabilities, especially Black people with disabilities in psychiatric institutions and the failure to ensure people with disabilities are provided with the services that they need. Another big program area for us, one that people don't always associate with the Bazelon Center, is to end segregation of students with disabilities in school systems and to make sure that students receive the services and supports in general education classrooms with their peers, where research has shown over and over again that that, um, that's the place where they have the most success. And, um, in fact, um, today we filed a lawsuit, um, that people can learn about on the website, again, www.bazlan.org, um, to provide Staten Island, uh, District 75 students with resources to have opportunities to attend the school of their choice.

Wow. You know, I want to go back to something you mentioned earlier because we have talked about that, and that is the school-to-prison pipeline. And you know, when you were talking about that, I'm thinking about all the people with mental health disabilities that may in certain situations strike out or do something where it's perceived that they're acting so inappropriate and they end up in court and then they end up in prison. And same thing for people with learning disabilities and some people with epilepsy. So Holly and I have talked about that many times, but my feeling is once again, we have to get people behind us and resources behind us to make a change there. Well, Harvey, I must say it is an honor for me to serve on the board with someone like you. Presently, you are the CEO of the New York Association of Psychiatric Rehabilitation Services, but you have achieved so much in your career. You have received so many awards. I'm sure our audience And when you listen to this show on demand, folks, tell everyone about that, Spotify and Apple. I'm sure that they will be surprised to hear about your personal history as a young man when they hear that today you're the CEO of this organization. If you could talk about, you know, that story, and after that, if you could explain What is the Peer-to-Provider Partnership Program? I feel your story is inspiring to many people with many health disabilities, young people that feel there is no hope. So if you don't mind, let's hear your story.

Thank you, Joyce Bender. Well, excuse me. Well, you know, it's interesting. I was reading that the Bazelon Center had its origins in 1972. Several years before that, I began my career in this work in a mental hospital on Long Island. And over my career, I'm proud to say that I started by being a patient in a hospital. I then wound up working in a state hospital, and then eventually I've, you know, we've helped create programs to help folks get and stay out of hospital. It's been a real spiritual journey for me and one I'm very blessed with. In that period of time, I wound up really crashing. It was the '60s, people were sort of groovy and hanging out, and I was crashing and winding up in a mental hospital. As I was going down, I was becoming more and more depressed and withdrawn, and I was trying to keep my eyes open to prevent disappearing. I couldn't prevent it, and my dad eventually found me in a corner of my apartment across from the college that I had to drop out of, and he took me to the local mental hospital where I was for 6 weeks, and they say if I had stayed there longer, I would have had shock therapy. My experience during the hospital was sort of plain and bleak. The services were very scant, and it was childish, really, and the medication really didn't work for me, and I was determined to regained my life. I moved back in with my folks, but I quickly, you know, and I never left the house except to feed the ducks or to go watch a movie because I thought that nobody would be watching me then. I was that anxious and suspicious and hopeless, really. Eventually, long story short, I wind up back in Albany, New York, where I had high school friends. And not surprisingly, I'm drawn to wanting to help people, particularly young men who were trying to crawl out of this hole level of despair and trauma that I found myself in. And I wound up working in the psych center and saw back in the '70s why we do this work, where people were deemed incapable of recovery, incapable of choice, that this was a life sentence, that relapse was inevitable. You would never get a job. You would never get married. You wouldn't be allowed to make choices. You would be chronic. This would be your life. That was the first time in the beginning where I was like a peer, which means a person that comes out of the closet and shares their experience. I couldn't do it out in the out because back then that wouldn't have worked, but I did it with all the people I worked with. And that's really part of the magic of recovery is shared experience and disclosure. I wound up in the state hospital for a period of time, like I said, and I was able to get myself working on the outpatient clinic. Which again, like the inpatient unit, that system was mainly about medication, hospitalization, and community residences. It wasn't about dignity, it wasn't about hope, it wasn't about recovery. It was basically having an illness, taking medication, and being disabled for the better part of your life. From there I wound up working in a rehab program. I headed up a psych rehab program called the Clubhouse, and that was much more like it. People were able to share, the distance between others was had been eradicated, we were all on the same sort of continuum. It wasn't those mentally ill people and the rest of us. And from there I was able to then become an advocate of groups that were programs like that and people that attended them. And NYAMPERS, the New York Association of Psych Rehab Services, really began in '94 in terms of the activity that we did, and we brought together anyone and everyone who believed that people could recover, who had hope, who believed that people could work and have relationships and have their rights protected. And we developed this big house, this big tent where the focus was on promoting recovery, rehabilitation, and rights, and cultural competence, and criminal justice reform, and community inclusion. Everybody has a right to live in the community with with full rights and expectations and protections and also responsibility. Anyway, long story short, NIAAPRS has been around since this period of time and our main strategies have been on advocacy. We've done a lot of policy work in Albany and in Washington. We've done a lot of training of providers and states and others to transform what they believe is possible, to raise the bar, as we say, for recovery, and to raise the expectations for people and the responsibilities of providers and government. And then we created the Peer Bridger Program, which is a program of people in recovery who go into hospitals and help people leave and stay out of those hospitals. So those are our three strategies: advocacy, training, and peer innovations. And peer support, and again, our organization is a partnership of peers and providers, meaning there are peer people in recovery who receive services, there are people who provide services, and there are a lot of people who are in recovery who provide services, and those are called peer supporters. And peer support is really at the cutting edge of what we offer in the system, and we're proud that we were able to create one of the early models, which is Peer Bridger. But the voice of peers and the impact of peer services is critical to the reform of the system, and one that promotes recovery and hope. That protects people's rights.

Harvey and Holly, are there still institutions that were referred to in the past as psychiatric institutions? Are there still institutions like that in this country?

Well, there's a whole array of institutions. There, yes, there are state psychiatric facilities that have thousands of people in them. Involuntarily committed in certain states. There are people who live in adult homes, where boarding care homes, where they're really institutions. People who live in nursing homes or institutions, and increasingly, as we know, people in jails and prisons. So all of these are the institutions of today.

Well, that's what we're working to change at BASC.

That's right.

Right. And yes, I just commend you, Harvey. You are one of those people that took what you went through and turned it into something great. You really paid it forward, and it is an honor to know you and be with you on the board. Holi. Here we are now in something we never thought would happen called the pandemic, COVID. My question is what have you and Harvey, and we'll start with you, Holly, then move to Harvey, what can you share with our listeners about the impact of COVID on people with mental health disabilities?

Yeah, well, Joyce, I hesitated about whether I was going to share this or not, but I'm going to. Actually, I'm living in a house right now with somebody with a disability who has COVID, and we're on day 5. And everyone, you know, it is very stressful. And I think that, you know, my firsthand experience with this is that COVID It's just so isolating, and it's also very confusing. And information is changing all the time. Information is coming from multiple resources— from multiple places and resources. And telehealth is wonderful in a lot of ways, but it's also hard. It's hard to do. It's hard to log on. It's hard to remember passwords. And if you're somebody that, you know, understands people through a variety of ways, whether it's, you know, looking at people's facial expressions and being able to see someone's mouth move, you know, COVID has really just been extremely challenging. I mean, it is for everybody, and I think for people with disabilities, it's been really hard. So we are taking all the precautions in our home and really glad for quality healthcare, and there's doctors and nurses that are, you know, really paying attention right now. And it's just such a personal question for me right now, so, you know, I'll turn it over to Harvey to talk more broadly.

May I just say I'm very sorry to hear that. And Holly, I wish this person and your family a very speedy recovery. But it's so amazing that you would bring up about, you know, hard to navigate. I am going to be getting tomorrow, actually, a COVID vaccine. But to do this, first you have to have internet access. Then I'm not kidding you, it's very hard to navigate this whole thing. All I could think of was people with disabilities, how do I know so many of them will be left out? But that story you told is personal and powerful. So, I'm glad you shared it because you know it. You know what it's really like. Harvey, how about you? What do you think the impact of COVID is on our community of people people with mental health disabilities?

First, I want to acknowledge Holly's courage and candor, and I, you know, I'm full support of you, Holly, and, you know, I really admire what you are doing, and I understand the risk of COVID because my partner works in a nursing home and tells me all about the deaths and the despair that's going on there. Well, I would say, Joyce Bender, Joyce Bender, what we have at Baselon Center, and those of us who are advocates for recovery in the community, have long said that people shouldn't be living in these institutions. Far too many people in these hospitals and nursing homes and adult homes and certainly in prisons and jails. Well, COVID makes it really clear because all these facilities become like incubator for the virus. And the virus has had its way and killed thousands of people in settings where people shouldn't have been anywhere. Way. These facilities were also very slow to get started, to socially distance people, to have the PPE. So— and they fed people still at the same time, instead of really separating it out. So they were— they took a lot of time to make the changes. The state took time to really provide the things we needed. And we lost thousands of people. So it makes, first of all, the point that anybody that shouldn't be in an institution, you know, should be in the community. And many of us would say almost everybody can live in the community and that that ought to be the focus of policy, to bring the supports for people in the community so they can live and work and socialize in the community itself. So I think that the fact that the virus has really just had its way with people, And the fact that even now as people are in institutions anyway, they're left in the institutions, it's, you know, there isn't broadband. People are living in residences or facilities where they don't have contact with people on the outside. They can't get visited. There are no laptops to be able to do. We're trying to— our whole system's moved into telehealth in March. And in many ways, you know, we've done Zoom calls and groups and, you know, calls in general and cards and, you know, dropping off things for people, but it really doesn't get it done. People are really idle and isolated and there's a lot of stress and trauma. We've seen the COVID pandemic, but the mental health and trauma pandemic that's coming as people really get to feel how they felt through all this period is going to be profound. And that's why having a lot of the right kinds of service is going to be really important.

Yes, because just as Holly said, people that are— COVID impacts everyone differently. And we really don't know. I'm friends with an epidemiologist and she says it's constantly changing. We really don't understand it. And so, all of those variables together cause people to be confused and anxious. And then of course we have people with mental health disabilities isolated, and that is so terrible. And we have people with mental health disabilities that are not getting the medication they need because of transportation and everything else. So once again, I'm so glad we're involved in supporting people because, uh, You know, they need someone, and that's Basilone. Holly, what issues are you going to bring forward for the Biden administration?

Yeah, we've actually been working with the transition teams, and we're very focused, supportive of the administration's focus on COVID, the economy, racial equity, and climate. And our issues at the Bazelon Center are really cross-cutting, as we're focused on housing and employment, educational opportunities, healthcare and mental healthcare, and people getting the services that they need.

And Harvey, what about you? What is your— what are your wishes?

Well, we're encouraged by the fact that the Biden administration is focused on people with disabilities and deinstitutionalization. They're certainly focused on the racism that puts a lot of people in hospitals, jails, and prisons that shouldn't be there. We're hoping they'll have some flexibility in the Medicaid program so we can actually use Medicaid, which is the most profound funding stream we have, to pay for the social determinants that Holly was talking about. Housing, transportation, services and supports that are available in the community. But you know, this last administration really took us in the wrong direction, Joyce, and we really went backwards and started talking more about hospitals than the community. We started talking about limiting privacy rights and rights protections and choice protections. We stopped talking about recovery and resilience, and we diminished what peer support is, what I was talking about earlier. And SAMHSA was a very isolated agency. So our hope, we've been, you know, through the work we're doing with the transition teams and in general, is to see SAMHSA, the mental health agency, substance use agency, to be at the center of national policy, because it should be everywhere, in housing, the housing agency, the Department of Justice in enforcing the legal right for people to live in the most integrated setting. That was weakened under the past administration. So almost in every area, whether it's dignity, rights, addressing racism, community independence, flexibility of Medicaid, more availability of housing, we're really hopeful, and we've been getting a good response. So we're looking forward to the administration. In fact, a group of— and Baseline has been central. I have seen Jennifer and the staff here, they've been talking numerous times to members of the transition team. And we had a meeting recently with the nominee for the HHS Secretary position. So that's one of the reasons I'm proud to be on the Baseline Center because they have that vision. They had an experience and they have that access.

Yes, I am proud also. Well, here we go on the half hour. We always have our news break with Perijude Radesik on Advocacy Matters. Peri, are you with us?

Hi Joyce, I'm fine. Thanks for having me.

Of course. What do you have for us today, Peri?

Yeah, so I want to continue the conversation around President Biden and the action he's taking around people with disabilities. And last week, President Biden took quick action to advance equality and inclusion of people with disabilities, and he included that with the elimination of racism and discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity. And federal government. Here is how he did that. He did that in a series of two presidential executive orders that happened on day one of his presidency. And he directed these federal agencies to combat discrimination, in one instance within 100 days, and in another in 200 days. So, the first one he signed was on preventing and combating discrimination on the basis of gender identity or sexual orientation. And while the focus of that order was to lay out principles related to Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act as they apply to gender identity and sexual orientation, the order also included a directive for each federal agency to develop a plan to counter discrimination in policies, programs, regulations, also on the basis of overlapping forms of discrimination like race and disability discrimination. And federal agencies have 100 days to start that implementation of that executive order. The other one is on advancing racial equity and support for underserved communities through the federal Government. And certainly the focus of that was on people of color and others like disability who have been historically underserved, marginalized, and adversely impacted by persistent equity and poverty. So, to counter that, the President made a number of suggestions for the federal agencies, including increasing coordination with the community, including disability organizations, and removing systemic barriers for people based on race and disability. So the president acted right away to work on issues, economic issues of people with disabilities. And if you wanna see these executive orders, visit our website at disability—

rightspa.org.

Wow, those were really big. And you know, something you said, Perry, that I want to just highlight is intersectionality. What you were talking about is that you can be from the Black or Asian or Indian community, Latina community, and have a disability. You know, that overlap that you talked about. So I'm really glad to hear about all of that because it really brings to light about that intersectionality, including in the LGBTQ community. So that is such great news, Perry. And once again, your website, in case anyone wants to go—

Yes, it's disabilityrightspa.org. You can find today's segment and links to the executive orders.

Great. Oh, such good news. Perry, thank you so much. We'll look forward to talking to you next week.

Thanks, Joyce Bender.

Bye-bye. Uh, well, you know, isn't that— that is really good news, especially after what Harvey talked about a little bit ago. Harvey, does that make you happy hearing all that?

Absolutely. It's very encouraging. The administration's hitting the ground running.

Yeah, like the press secretary announcing yesterday, we will always have disability and inclusion, and let's start with sign language interpreters at every briefing no matter where it is. Wow, I was so excited, so impressed by that. And Holly, the first person I called was former Congressman Tony Coelho, who we just honored at the gala, to congratulate him for all the work he's been doing with President Biden. I said, "Tony, we can see your footprint." That is so great. Well, I wanted to talk about The gala, since I just brought up Tony, we had a gala in November and it was fantastic. And we worked with Jason Maida. I want to mention that because he did such a fabulous job. Holly, how about if you talk about that gala and then Harvey, if you have any comments you want to make, go right ahead.

Okay. You know, I love to talk about the gala. So, Joyce, thanks so much for your role on the committee. But just to tell everybody, everybody can see the gala because we did it virtually on November 17th. And we did it to celebrate the 30th anniversary of the Americans with Disabilities Act. And we honored Tony Coelho with a Lifetime Achievement Award. And we also— I mean, the Bazelon Center has an awards event every year, and this one was really special because it was the 30th anniversary of the Americans with Disabilities Act and because we were able to honor one of the primary authors in Toni Coelho, but we also gave other awards to advocates. Adilza Fernandez, who is a younger up-and-coming advocate. Chacku Mathai, who Harvey knows well, and he's at the Center for Practice Innovations at Columbia University now. And then we also, you know, we do a lot of legal work. And so we wanted to recognize the people in law firms that help support us because, as you mentioned before, we're a nonprofit. And so we honored Outstanding Pro Bono Lawyer Jeff Goldman, who's at Morgan Lewis, and our Law Firm Partner Outstanding Pro Bono Partner was Paul Weiss, who's worked for us for a long time on the New York Home for case. And the part that really made it special as well was that we had so many notable people participate in a virtual event. And when you think about virtual events, I mean, I was the one that was the last to sign on. I just kept thinking, let's just keep postponing it, postponing it, because I'm extroverted And I wanted to see people. But as this went on and on and on in the pandemic, we real— and the end of 2020 started to come, and it wouldn't be the 30th anniversary year of the ADA anymore. We realized we needed to go virtual. And the things that I learned from that is, one, you can have so many more people participate. We had partners, former staff, some of the founders of Bazelon participate. Because anybody, anywhere in the country, and quite frankly, we had people from all over the world join. And then also these, like, really important people who are committed to the Bazelon Center and to our advocacy. And, you know, we had people from both sides of the aisle. We had President Bill Clinton. We had Speaker Pelosi. We had Majority Leader Hoyer and Tammy Duckworth and Senator Bob Casey and lots of other people that were involved in the ADA, including former U.S. Senator Tom Harkin. We had Governor Ridge. And we also had Ayanna Pressley, Stacey Abrams, Judy Heumann. I mean, I just could go on and on and on. Representative Katie Porter. And it was, you know, it was really wonderful. And like I always say, we actually had Wonder Woman herself, and Lynda Carter was was— participated as well. So, it was a really special evening that brought so many people together for the Center and also helped us raise a significant amount of money. We had a lot of sponsors, including your sponsor, Highmark, and we're very grateful to everybody who helped us essentially, like, produce a show, which is very different than a live event in person.

You know what, it was fantastic. It really was. Uh, you know, talk about star-studded. I mean, it was just unbelievable, all the people on there. I just want to mention again, uh, Holly, website?

www.bazon.org. And we have these sliders at the top of our website, and you can see the virtual gala, and you can press "Watch Now," and you can watch it. And I encourage everybody to watch it to the end because we had the Gay Men's Chorus from Washington, D.C. at the end, and they really did a spectacular job and really end on a high there.

Yeah, yep. How about you, Harvey? What did you think?

Oh, I thought it was thrilling. I, I think the virtualness of it actually really worked to see so many, uh, so many figures of, you know, in government and entertainment. Uh, I was very proud of the center and so proud that all these folks came out on behalf of us and, and what we do. I thought it was thrilling.

Yeah, you know, one of the advantages of virtual is that any of these people can participate. It's different saying, would you please come to DC at this time, because you know what, many times you'll think they're coming and something happens, they can't come. So there was a very big benefit in that, and I, I really thought it was great. So all of you Please go watch that and then share it with other people, and I guarantee you they'll want to make a donation. Harvey, I've got to tell you, when you were talking about, uh, you know, people with disabilities and what they go through, you know, I— as you all know, Bender Consulting Services specializes in the employment of people with disabilities. I cannot begin to tell you How many people have jobs with mental health disabilities that will never tell anyone because of the stigma? People with bipolar disorder, schizoid affect, depression, anxiety disorders, they will not tell. How I know? After I speak, they'll come and tell me, "Hey, I'm one of those people that will not tell." And that is because of stigma of having a mental health disability. Do you have any suggestions of what we could do to try to fight this stigma?

Well, that's a great segue. And if I say one thing today that people hear, it's that disclosure, one person at a time, is the most powerful. It's disarming. I always disclose wherever I go. I tell people that I'm in recovery. And inevitably, 3 out of 4 times, somebody will either say, "Me too," or, "I have a mother or a son or a cousin or a neighbor." And we need to equalize that. This is not some sort of a disease that should isolate people. It's a part of life for many of us, and it's a manageable part of life. So I think the disclosure.. And just making it okay, whether it's about on a job or really just in everyday life. I say it more than I even want to because it's so important to do that. And I also, I think one of the things the Bazelon Center has tried to do that's really important is to decouple the public views of violence and mental illness. That's been a really huge, same sort of issue. And I understand when there are tragedies that people would say things like, "You'd have to be crazy to do that." But that's not mental illness. That's something unfathomable, unbelievable, unimaginable. But it's not mental illness. And so it's important, so important to recognize that people with mental illnesses are 11 times more apt to be the victims of violence. People don't get that impression. So I think decoupling of violence and the stigma of violence, the false connection with violence, disclosure. I think also really putting the mic in the hands of us, of the people in recovery, and putting people like us in government in high positions really makes it clear people recover and they have major roles and their recovery informs and deepens and inspires the work they do and the impact they have on others. I would say those things, really. But really, if I say— if I say one thing, it's disclosure. And that any of us who either have or know find a way to just be frank about that, because it, it'll— it changes the world, really, more powerfully than any movie, slogan, sign, billboard. It's, you know, one person at a time.

That is so true, you know that. I know with epilepsy, even when I'm talking at a restaurant and a waiter or waitress will hear me say that, they'll come over, "Hey, I have epilepsy. I just don't talk about it." And I'll say, "Well, why don't you?" "Oh, you know, the stigma, the discrimination." I have vice presidents tell me that after I speak at a corporation. So you are so right about that. And you know what? There's so many people with mental health disabilities, employees, it's just the company doesn't know because they haven't, you know, told that they have a mental health disability. How about you, Holly? What advice do you have?

On fighting stigma? You know, I just echo what Harvey said, and I also I think that the more that people, you know, are willing to share their stories and, you know, it takes people, other people who are willing to advocate as well. And, you know, I think a lot of people, quite frankly, right now, And perhaps this is one thing that will come out of the pandemic is people will understand how people could feel isolated even if they're surrounded by people, because now everybody is really experiencing isolation and the importance of community and taking care of each other.

I think, you know, you know, the trauma is a big, big part of this. You know, trauma is a big part of this, Joyce, and I think the trauma— I think I said this earlier— of having to live— I've been in this house of mine, I'm, I'm vulnerable for an entire year. I've left maybe 20, 25 times. So the isolation and the separation and the trauma of just having this very limited life is almost a metaphor at times for what people with, in mental health recovery experience at the beginning of that recovery. So, you know, again, I do think mental health services and supports are gonna be needed more than ever as people realize once the virus lifts and the political climate continues to brighten, people will come to realize how horrible the last year was, how damaging, how wounding, and how traumatizing it was. It was, and it'll be great that we have folks who are models of recovery and supporters of recovery, 'cause this country needs to heal.

Yes, that's for sure. And one thing I suggest to companies, especially managers, is to make sure they engage everyone. If they have someone with a mental health disability, do not leave that person isolated. Of course, you shouldn't leave any of the employees isolated, But, you know, have seminars, webinars on mental health disabilities. Have advice about, you know, communicating with people who are isolated. We had the most horrific thing happen to us at the beginning of the pandemic. You know, when you're even an intern at Bender Consulting, You're immediately part of the family. And there was one young man, uh, well, I love him so much, and he became friends with, you know, my employees even though he was an intern. After he left and went to school and college, he stayed in touch with everyone. And, uh, you know, they all play these video games. And they were playing video games one week, and that Saturday his father called me and said, Joyce, I have terrible news for you. My son took his life. And he had a mental health disability, and he was isolated because of COVID And I'm not saying that's what caused this to happen, but my leadership team and all the employees, we were so devastated that I had to have a counselor come on because we just love him so much. So, you know, you have to take this very seriously about keeping in touch with all of your employees and sharing with everyone the importance of kindness, love, and being in touch with each other. So, Holly, I'll start with you. What advice do you have for people with mental health issues who are not working, unemployed, and do not have family support?

Well, one is, you know, I think that there are— to reach like to reach out to somebody, whether it's a friend or a neighbor. And again, another part of this pandemic is everybody is reaching out on computers and screens. And so, you know, I think that that is really important. There's also lots of advocacy groups and support groups, and we have a list of resources on our website. I know Harvey does too, so maybe he wants to talk about his website and what resources and advice he has.

Thank you, Holly. Our website is www.nyaprs.org. Www.nyaprs.org. Well, I think isolation and a feeling of incapacity, certainly anything that builds esteem and value and connection, those things. And certainly central to our world is peer support, social and peer support, family support if that's possible. But as Holly says, peer support groups, and whether it's 12-step meetings or mental health peer support groups or Recovery Inc., are critical and they're free and they're just so powerful. And the people you meet there really begin to fill in your community, all the contact you can have with them. But Holly's point about the internet, a lot of these groups are still available. I go to meetings and groups and I, I rely on the internet to do that. And these groups have really taken life because there are people in the groups from other countries, not just in your hometown, because they can. So it really builds relationships and connection. I also think a sense of when you're not working, I know when we went virtual, a lot of the programs, the peer programs, worked with people who had lost their jobs and advised them, keep acting as if you're going to work. Get dressed, put on some clothes, go out and do something sort of meaningful. Don't get into that routine where you despair, you isolate, or you just watch TV or eat all day long. So I think it's having the routines and reaching out to people and value. I remember when I was at the worst of my recovery, just the fact that I was able to cook and cook and take care of myself meant the world to me. It seemed obvious to other people that that was— we take it for granted. So I think self-care and peer support, I would say, are the two big things.

Great advice. Harvey Rosenthal, Holly O'Donnell, board member and Holly CEO of Bazelon Center on Mental Mental Health Law. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Thank you for having us, Joyce. You do a great job.

Thank you for having us.

Thank you. And I want everyone again to go to the Bazelon website and find— and by the way, aren't we also on Twitter, Holly?

Yes, @bazeloncenter. Yeah, the handle.

Yeah, and go to that. Remember, make a donation. Uh, there's so many people that you don't know— you know— that do have a mental health disability. This is Joyce Bender, America's Voice, where disability matters, with voiceamerica.com. Talk to you all next week. And we end every show with a quote. And today that is, "No one wants to admit they suffer from a mental illness because of the stigma," said Patrick Kennedy. Talk to everyone next week with my guest, Larry Kleinman, EVP at Highmark. Talk to you then.

Voice America would like to thank you for tuning in. Please join us next Tuesday at 11 AM Pacific time and 2 PM Eastern time for another installment of Disability Matters, right here on the Voice America Variety Channel. We are the leader in live internet talk radio. VoiceAmerica.com.