Nanette (Nan) DeTurk: Career and Commitment to Finding Talented People with Disabilities in Healthcare Field

At Highmark Health, we believe what makes us unique makes us better. Our differences broaden our perspectives and foster a variety of skills to complement each other, creating a stronger and more vibrant workforce. It's this belief that earned us recognition as the Best Place to Work for the 10th year for individuals with disabilities in a survey by the American Association of People with Disabilities and Disability:IN. We'll continue to celebrate and benefit from the inclusion of all people. To find out more, visit highmarkhealth.org. Welcome to Disability Matters with your host Joyce Bender. All comments, views, and opinions expressed on this show are solely those of the host, guest, and callers. Now the host of Disability Matters, here's Joyce Bender.

Hi everyone, welcome to the show. This is Joyce Bender on Disability Matters. So great to be with all of you. Thank you, everyone in the Americas. What great listeners and followers. Do you know what really always just warms my heart? It's when I go somewhere and someone says, oh, you're Joyce Bender. And it must be when they hear my voice. Oh, you're Joyce Bender. And I listen to your show. Oh. Always is so awesome, and I appreciate it, as I do the 73, soon 74 countries around the world with listeners. Some of those countries, such as a small country in Africa, may have only one listener, but you know what I always say, you've heard me say it on all these shows, One listener can make a difference. One. Just like, as Nan knows, one man, Bill Lowry, made a big difference just by agreeing to work with me to find employment for people with disabilities when he was the CEO of Blue Cross that became Highmark while he was there. One man, one yes, and now thousands of people with disabilities have employment. I travel around the world with the State Department, have been throughout Asia as an expert on the employment of people with disabilities. I have this radio show, I have a software product. I started this not-for-profit for high school students living with disabilities. And by the way, Go to benderleadership.org. These are high school students with disabilities dealing with bullying, and we are preparing them for the world of work and reminding them how awesome they are. Benderleadership.org. This is end of year. This is Thanksgiving. Go make a donation today. But back to Bill. When I was in Kazakhstan, I'm not kidding, I'm standing there and I thought he would never believe it. He would never believe all this would happen, but it did. So one person, one listener, one country, you go tell everyone about any English listening venue. And spread the news. Quality of life for all people living with disabilities. Yoshiko Dart, I'm thankful for you. Special shout out, as I have had every year, oh my goodness, over 7 years, every show. Why? She is the widow of the late, great Justin Dart. She is a warrior. You know, I knew Justin Dart was famous when he was a Jeopardy question. But so you know, Justin was one of the greatest disability rights leaders behind getting the ADA signed. I'm blessed I got to meet him. I only wish I'd known him longer. But you know, it bothers me that in the United States, in our education system, that students aren't taught about these great disability rights leaders in the disability world. So that is why I have that shout out to Yoshiko. And Yoshiko, I'm thankful for you. Have a great Thanksgiving. And speaking of being thankful, what can I say about Highmark? What can I say? Other than they set the high mark for all companies to follow. There isn't one, one company in the United States where from 1995 until today that every single CEO has stood behind me. Everyone, every one of them, and hired and still hires people with disabilities. See, I always tell people, if they say to me, oh, Joyce, you're so wonderful, I say, tell Don't tell me that. Hire someone. You know, it's not the compliment. Where does the rubber meet the road? Hire a person with a disability today. So, Highmark has been the sponsor, lead sponsor of this show for many years. Love you. Love you, Highmark. And wouldn't you know, wouldn't you know that we have as our guest today. Oh, I love her, and I'm grateful she took time to be with us because she was at Highmark when all this happened that I'm talking about as Executive Vice President, Chief Financial Officer. A wonderful person, a great supporter and friend, Nan Deterke. Welcome to the show.

Thanks, Joyce. I'm happy to be here, and it's hard to believe how long we've known each other. That it took this long for us to get our calendars together and I can actually chat with you for a bit on your show.

I know. Well, see, that's what we have to do for us to get together. We have to be on an international radio show. But yeah, we have to change that, man. Yes, we must change that. Because I, you know, I tell people, when you have someone that's helped you or special in your life, You should be calling, checking in, even during this time when many people with disabilities said to me, "We've lost our jobs. What are we gonna do? What will we do?" I said, "Okay, stop right there. Number one, you're gonna keep moving. You're gonna keep moving. Number two, communicate." We all have to communicate with one another to stay powerful because, you know, I may hear of something that I think Nan would want to know about some company. And she may know of a company that will hire people. You may not have a job but know someone that can help you. We have to communicate. It will pass, and we will remember all those people that helped us. So remember, communicate, move forward. Uh, and that's Nan. She is a move forward person. She is the executive leader, financial experience, strategic experience, operational expertise, and definite healthcare expertise from her time with— Hi, Mark Nan, welcome to the show. It's a pleasure to have you with us.

Thanks.

So the first thing I have to tell everyone listening NAN hired people. NAN supported you. NAN is the real deal. How often we go somewhere, we meet someone, and they say, oh yes, wow, wow, I, we do stuff for people with disabilities. And I say, really? How many wheelchairs are in your lobby? Like, how many service dogs do you see? Not a lot. But you do it. Hi, Mark. And Nan Deterke was involved in all of this. I want you to know, our listeners around the world always want to know more about the person. So, Nan, let's start with your story. Tell us about your journey and what happened throughout your life and your career.

Sure, absolutely. So I was born and raised in a tiny little town in northwest Ohio. Called North Baltimore. 3,200 people. 50 people are born and 50 people die each year. And it's been going on for probably 100 years. So it was just a real small town. My parents were— my father was a bombardier in World War II. And when he returned, he opened and went to funeral director— he became a funeral director and an embalmer school and opened up his own business right there in that small little town, last house on the right on Main Street. So that was my beginnings. I had two siblings, two sisters. They were older.

Older.

My parents had spread out, um, their children. My oldest sister is still alive and she's 15 years older than I. My middle sister, we lost to breast cancer, um, about, uh, 10 years ago now. So, um, that's where I began. Um, my father was this— a significant influence on my life. Um, he was a very compassionate person. And, you know, I think World War II, that, that whole generation, it's held true for him. And it had a big impact on him, his life, his children. And from there, I went to Ohio State after graduating, where I had more people living in my dorm than was in the entire town that I was raised in. In and I loved it. It was like a campus of 60,000 people and I really flourished there. Graduated with honors in the finance program. I was summa cum laude and just really loved the experience of Ohio State and everything it brought. It brought a lot of opportunities. From there I went into— and I'm dating myself— I went into the Big Eight accounting firm I think now there's only 4. There's been 4 for probably 20 years. And I started in insurance and there I met my first husband, Barry, while I was auditing and really got into health insurance after Barry and I moved to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. I started working for Pennsylvania Blue Shield. And that was the beginning of my Highmark career. That was about 22 years. And from there, I, you know, we moved. Barry and I moved from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh, and Barry had a slight accident while we were building a home in Wexford. And he was a type 1 diabetic, and the complications of this small accident, stepped into a ditch that the builders had just dug for water line, I think it was. But anyways, I spiraled out of control and unfortunately Barry passed away in 2002. So, but all the while I was with Highmark and they were extremely supportive as I was going through this. It was about 30 months of, you know, assisted living, care at home. And then ended up with hospice and him passing. But the CEOs at Highmark were just so supportive because, you know, they really do care. And I think that's what really, you know, made me realize that this was the company that I wanted to be with for the rest of my career. So that's kind of my story in a nutshell. At Highmark, I started as the accounting manager at Pennsylvania Blue Blue Shield and grew all the way to chief financial officer as well as strategy chief administrative officer. I ended up for Ken Malani, the CEO. When I reported to him, I was kind of his problem solver. So if we had a subsidiary that maybe wasn't doing so well, I knew from the financials, I would helicopter in and kind of be the interim CEO and kind of help them turn it around and hire executives to really run the business. And then all while remaining the chief financial officer.

Wow. Wow. Yeah, you were a busy woman.

I was.

Oh my God, you were busy. Well, you know, when you started, how small was Highmark until today?

You know, it's hard to find because I started in 1993, but it was Pennsylvania Blue Shield. And we were— if you can turn back time, think about healthcare in 1993. It was— you still had probably 3 policies through your employer. You probably had somebody that covered the doctors. The providers, the hospital side, and then you had an umbrella over the top, which tried to cover, you know, additional items, you know, ancillary type items. And Pennsylvania Blue Shield was the providers part of it, the doctor, the network there. And they were really back office to all of the other Blues in Pennsylvania. They were limited to Pennsylvania. And So they didn't have any sales, they didn't have any marketing, they didn't have any product development. That was all outsourced to the Blue Cross side of the business. And so we were a backroom processor. So it sounded like we were big. We probably had 5, 6 million members, but we really only had a piece of it, right? So, and never dealt with the customer. Only really our customers were the doctors in the provider network. That was the main thing that we did and processed claims. So it was, I don't know how many millions, it was probably a couple billion in revenue. And now I believe it's $24 billion, I wanna say. So, but it was very different back then.

Yeah. You know, when Bill Lowry was retiring, He called me and said, Joyce, I want to take you to lunch, schoolios, Keith Katmeyer and myself, because we want you to meet someone. I said, oh, okay, I go. The someone was John Brouse and Jim Klingensmith, and who became, as you know, CEO and COO. And Bill said, there are a few things important to me. One of them is what Joyce does. So I want you to keep it going. And that's really how it all started, that from John Brouse to Ken Maloney, and from Ken Maloney to Bill Winkenwerder. And then I met, of course, the great David Holmberg, who is the CEO today. But even that started, even that started, you know, from Bill. I'll never forget that luncheon. He just so awesome. So, um, when you were at Highmark, Nan, you were saying good people, nice people. What did you learn about that company? I mean, when you, you know, some people say, oh, I'd never go to this company again, or, oh, this company's cutthroat, or whatever it is. What did you learn about Highmark?

I think it dated back to really, you know, my bosses that made me realize, and, you know, I worked for John Brause, and it was the true compassion that they have, that we had at Highmark. We really did care about the member and tried really, really hard based on the employee, values that, you know, a lot of companies are employees first, which is very good. But at Highmark, it's the members. It's the members are first. And you always have to— you can't lose sight of that. And, you know, I will say that over time, you know, sometimes, you know, you have to pull back. It does get political. It does, you know, get a little cutthroat. But, you know, that's, it's a very, very large, you know, company and corporation and you're going to have that. But, but at the end of the day, it's all about the mission and it's all about providing access and quality healthcare, access to quality healthcare. So that's what most impressed me. And I think my case is a little different. You know, I I wake up every day. When I was there, I woke up every day. And you have to have passion. You have to have passion about what you're doing. And if you don't have passion, I learned that from my father. And if you don't have passion and you don't feel like this is the direction you want to be going and where you want to be spending your time because life is short, then you move on. And, you know, I stayed at Highmark for 22+ years. So I found that compassion and that passion in my work, that, you know, they remain true to their mission.

Yeah. Yes. I agree with you that they did. And you know what you said about that passion? First thing I thought of, when I went with the U.S. State Department to Japan, we went first to Okinawa. And they have the oldest living centennials, whatever you want to call it, higher than all the other countries' longevity of life. And they said, and there are 3 things. I said, okay, first thing, diet. No. First thing, purpose. Every day when they get up, no matter how old they are, they have a purpose. There's— whether it's for the family or a neighbor or just something they're working on or something they believe in, but they have a purpose. Number 2, other people, having a social network, spending time with other people. They were saying how some of these women Here they are, 95 years old, and they get up in the morning and first thing they do is they're going out having tea with one of their friends that live next door. But that social bonding was number 2. Number 3 was diet. I thought we're going to get there.

We got to eventually get there.

Yeah, it's number 3. But that's what I thought of when you said about having a passion. I thought of that right away. Thought of, uh, Nan belongs in Okinawa. There you go, you fit right in.

But right, you know, so would my mother, who lived to be 96 years old. She was every day, um, you know, she had a purpose and, and she certainly had passion.

So yeah, and something else, Nan, that we have in common— my father was a World War II veteran. He was in the Navy and he worked on an aircraft carrier. And you know, you're so right about that generation. Oh my goodness, it's— they were a special breed, to say the least.

Yeah, my biggest, um, kind of disappointment, um, in life is that they never talked about it. And, um, I never really forced my dad to talk about it. But, and he passed when I was only, uh, I want to say 34. Yeah, I was 34. So, um, I was fairly young. And, um, but I did do a World War II, um, cruise, uh, on the 70th anniversary of D-Day. And, um, my husband and I, we researched a lot, like where he had as a bombardier, where he had done his 67 missions. And we got like kind of the, you know, the pinpoint on a map. And it was fascinating. I just wish I could have talked to him about it. But, you know, that generation never wanted to talk about it. It was just part of their life and it changed their lives.

Um, but yeah, so very, very patriotic, but definitely not talking about what they went through or what they endured. But what a generation, what a generation. Um, well, we were talking earlier about Karen Hanlon and David Holmberg, and wow, you did a great job. Karen reported to you You, you even told me, did you ever meet this, uh, person reports to me, Karen Hanlon? No, I had not. You said, oh, I think she was becoming your controller at that time. But you told me you watch her, you watch Karen. Here she is now, number 2 at Highmark. Then you took me to lunch to meet David Holmberg, who You said, watch him, this is really a good guy. And he became the CEO. So obviously, you could have been an executive search because you picked them and you knew and you were right on. And I know how much they look up to you because when Karen was on and I asked her about her role model, it was you. So, you know, you had a big impact on both of them. And what did you see in them? What was it that you saw in them that you knew these are people to promote, or these are people that will move up into the executive leadership role?

I think I saw in both of them, and still do today, They're very strategic. I mean, they're wicked smart. And they try very hard to rise above the day-to-day politics and kind of bring you back, you know, to what are we trying to do here? What are we trying to advance? How are we trying to make a difference in this, you know, world, this crazy complex healthcare world. And, you know, that's what I see in both of them. And that's why they are very, very successful. They are not cutthroat. They are not looking out for themselves. They are not trying to build empires. They're just really trying to move move the ball forward in this little niche of the world that we have called healthcare. And how can we make it more accessible? How can we make it more affordable? And how can we really engage your team to be, you know, work together to advance that? I think I saw that in both of them. And that's what I always look for when I was hiring people. And I will tell you, those are my two of my obviously best hires. And you make some mistakes, but you got to be able to very quickly, you know, deal with your mistakes. And I think they, they both do that also. They learn from their mistakes. Don't, don't take defeat, you know, um, as the end of the world. Just pick up and move on and figure out how to learn from it and do better the next time.

I would also say that you, David, and Karen are all good people. I mean, you have a goodness in you, and you know, that's why you can stand on solid ground. You have that character, you know, that goodness. And one thing about them also, like you, is they are well-grounded as far as being calm when everything's burning to the ground around them. You know what I mean? Like, I'll say, oh, Karen, how are you? Okay. I said, well, you're in quite a time. Oh, yes. But, you know, Yeah, we move on. I mean, that's how they both are though. They're both like that. And what it reminded me of was Keith Katmeyer. One time I was to meet— Mary and I were going to go meet him early in the morning. So Carol called to confirm and the, uh, the executive assistant said, oh, um, yes, Dawn, lot of excitement here. The other Highmark building is on fire. We were like, oh my God, you know, what do you mean it's on fire? Oh, well, we'll have to, you know, we'll have to cancel. I mean, that's not a problem. No, no, he said to come. He's not canceling. So I go. I said, wow, you know, we didn't think you would meet. And he said, Joyce, if I got upset every time something caught on fire, I really have a problem. Now, what am I going to do to stop that? Nothing. What can I do? But that's an example. And Bill was the same way, Bill Lowry. So I do think that's— I think that's— don't you agree that they're like that?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. You have to You have to maintain a sense of there's only so much you can do. And, you know, this too will work its way out as long as you got the right people in the team working with you. If you have confidence— if you don't have confidence in them, then you need to make some changes and you need to get the right team.

So, yeah, that's right. Well, Nan, you have been a supporter of mine from the beginning when I met you. I just told this story the other day. Oh, I think I told your nephew that I'll never forget the day you invited me to one of your town hall or whole staff meeting, all staff meeting. And so I went up and I spoke and I sat down and you looked at them and said, I'm not going to tell you to hire a person with a disability, but I am going to challenge you to hire a person with a disability. Oh, I'll never forget that. Never. I tell that story all the time. As a matter of fact, I told Karen and she said, I know, I was there. I was at that meeting. But so my question to you is, Why are you like this? As you probably know, 70% of Americans with disabilities are still not counted in the workforce, which is— how can that be? This is my 30th anniversary of Bender Consulting. I just don't know how it's still possible. So obviously there are people that will not, but you do. So why is that?

Yeah, so obviously it started when I— well, not obviously, but I will tell you my exposure to the disabled started when I was 11 years old. My nephew, Matt Sterling, was born with some severe birth defects and kind of related to spina bifida. It's got a long, long, long, long name, but he's been in a wheelchair. And today Matt is 56 years old. He had an extremely successful, you know, career in marketing and advertising, and he lives in Southern California now. And he is somewhat retired but doing fun stuff. He just recently wrote a book. But anyways, talking about life as, as a disabled kid, I'll call him, in the '90s, living alone, starting working in the advertising world in New York City. And I've been with him every step of the way. We grew up together. I If you ask him who his role model is, he probably would say me, just because he always looked up to me. He— I remember he was in college, University of Florida, and not doing so well, partying quite a bit. And the guidance counselor said, well, what are you doing in accounting? And he says, well, my Aunt Nan is a finance CPA and she drives a BMW. So he's like, why, why would you not want to be an accountant, you know? So, but, you know, um, our whole family treated Matt, um, no different. My sister and brother-in-law raised him no differently than, um, you know, their other two children, and that there wasn't anything on earth that he couldn't do. And so when I got in the work field, in the workforce, and I realized that people were actually very hesitant, I was confused about hiring the disabled because, you know, it was just part of our life, you know, and, you know, Matt is no different from anyone else. And I will tell you, it set me back just recently when he issued— when he wrote his book, his memoir for his young son. So he can appreciate what it was like for him being, you know, disabled in a world that wasn't, you know, so accessible and so forgiving. And I read that book and I was like, wow, I never realized some of the struggles he had in New York City. And, you know, shame on me for not realizing that because he didn't share it. He didn't talk about it. Um, I just assumed that, you know, being in a wheelchair and not being in a wheelchair, there's no really no difference in life. But there is. There's— and so you got to give, um, the disabled, um, you know, some, some help. You have to go out of your way. And so when I had you come that day to my staff, I think at that point in time I probably had 400 or 500 people in finance.

Oh, it was— yeah, it was a big room.

Yeah, I wasn't going to tell him you have to do this. You got to want to do it. And I'm going to challenge you and I'm going to give you the budget and I'm going to give you some leeway, you know, to, to, you know, because it's going to take you a little more time, you know, to work with some of these individuals. And so that's when I said, I challenge you to do that. Come to me with, with some ideas. And so that's kind of— that's been my approach from day one. You know, we never thought Matt— we were told when they, you know, did a spinal fusion when he was like 7, and by then I was probably 20, you know, that he probably wasn't going to live much longer. And here he is, 56, and had a really successful career.—

and a fireball and really smart and nice and a great sense of humor. What is that book called? The Mighty?

The Mighty.

The Mighty. The Mighty. Okay. The Mighty. So, you know, go to Amazon. The Mighty by Matt Sterling.

That's right.

You will love it. Yes.

And with that, it's It's eye-opening for those who think know a lot about the disabled and the challenges that they face. Um, you know, everybody's situation is different, and it's— it was, it was very eye-opening for the family, particularly me.

Amazing too, was just for the family, and you already know them. Imagine for people that don't. Uh, you, you really need to buy that book, The Mighty by Matt Sterling. And with that, it is on the half hour for our news break, which as everyone knows, we are the only place in the world that has a news break every show about what's going on in the world of disability nationally. So Jennifer, you're with us. Jennifer Mathis.

I am.

Oh, Jennifer, I'm so happy to see you. Hi, how are you today?

I'm good, thank you.

Well, what news do you have for us today, Jennifer? And by the way, Jennifer is with Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law, and Jennifer is the most prestigious, well-known disability rights leader in this area. New York Times, everything, TV, you name it. I used to, if there's ever a question about mental health, I'd say, oh, I'm going to call Jennifer, calling Jennifer. And now look, I have Mathis on the mic with Jennifer on every week. So Jennifer, let's hear the news.

So the news today is that yesterday the Department of Homeland Security issued a proposed rule, a new proposed rule to redefine who is considered a public charge. This is an area that I think it has a significant impact on immigrants with disabilities. It is an area of the law where things have gone back and forth in the past couple of administrations. So A public charge is a policy that has been in the law for over 100 years that allows the government to review whether a person who is applying for a green card or a visa is likely to become primarily dependent on the government for their subsistence, and that's called being a public charge. And so For many, many years, the government applied the law pretty consistently in this area. Then in 2019, during the first Trump administration, that administration upended decades of law and issued a new public charge rule that vastly broadened who was considered a public charge in a way that really impacted people with disabilities, It made it much more likely that people with disabilities would be considered a public charge because it, for the first time, added consideration of whether people had gotten Medicaid benefits, SNAP benefits. It looked at people's health in more restrictive ways. It looked at long-term institutionalization. Well, the, the law has always looked at long-term institutionalization. This really sort of broadened though who, who was, who was falling within these categories. And the disability community got pretty involved in this area because it seemed like people with disabilities were such a big focus of this law, and it seemed like it was sending the message we don't want people with disabilities in this country. And so Um, that law, that regulation was changed in the last administration. The last administration did a new rule that largely went back to what the law was before. It did not count Medicaid and SNAP benefits. It was very clear that disability by itself does not make somebody a public charge. It said, look, if you look at past institutionalization. It has to be a long term, and you have to consider if somebody was institutionalized in violation of the ADA or 504, um, if then otherwise you can't count that against them. And so the last administration, I think, made it, um, much harder to label somebody with a disability a public charge. Now here we are again with the current administration issuing a new proposal to basically make it even broader than what they did under the first Trump administration. And to say, we're not putting in any standards at all. We're proposing just getting rid of all this stuff and having maximum discretion. And, uh, they said we want They, uh, what did they say? Um, DHS believes that, um, this will be more consistent with Congress's intent as it would restore ultimate discretion for officers to consider not just the minimum statutory factors but also any other information that the officer deems relevant to a public charge inadmissibility determination. So basically they're kind of saying anything goes, um, and so I think that will create a lot of confusion. It also, even for people who, um, are not going to be subject to this rule, it creates so much confusion among, uh, the immigrant community that I think people are afraid to use public benefits, um, because they're afraid of being considered a public charge. And so it really would have some pretty drastic impacts on people with disabilities and people who need services. Um, and so, uh, there is going to be a 30-day comment period. That's very short for a rule like this, but, um, that is what it will be. And so, uh, that comment period, the clock starts ticking tomorrow because they said they're going to publish this officially in the Federal Register or tomorrow. So people will then have 30 days, and I think that there will be a lot of guidance that's out there in the community. I think we'll put something on our website at some point during that comment period. I'm sure lots of the disability groups will have some sample comments out there for people, but basically I think it's important that people comment and say, please don't do this, please leave the rules as they were.

Should they go to your site to do that, basilan.org, or I mean to get information on how to make a comment?

So I think this is all so new, we don't have anything on our site yet. I'm not sure who does, but definitely within the next week or two I think there will be information on disability groups' websites. People can look at, I think DREDF will often have information, AAPD, American Association of People with Disabilities, I'm sure will have information. Bazelon will have information. At some point we will put it also on our social media. And so people should stay tuned. We'll come back to this in another news segment. During this 30-day period so we can give people a little more guidance about what they might say. But I think basically the comment should be at bottom, please don't do this. There will be massive confusion if you do this and people will be harmed and you should stick with the rules that you have now.

Okay, Jennifer, thank you so much. And we'll look forward to hearing more about this. But that's AAP dredf.org, and bazelon.org. Keep going to those sites. I assure you it will be on one of them, or at some, at some point, all of them. Thank you so much, Jennifer. It's always a pleasure to have you.

Okay, take care.

Bye-bye. Bye. I am like so honored to have her. She is always at Senate hearings, everything, everything related to mental health. I mean, she is just absolutely brilliant. And, you know, I think I'm already going to know the answer to this question, but I'm still going to— well, let me ask you this first. Tell us about the Black Power Avasi Group, and what I was really interested, Autism Learning Partners. Sure.

So Black Powder Advisory Group is really just me since I retired. It's an LLC, you know, that I set up once I retired about 10 years ago now. It's been to continue to do some advisory work to the healthcare industry as well as serve on some corporate boards. I met a lot of private equity folks when I was at Highmark, and I've been working with several different groups and serving on their boards, and one of them is Autism Learning Partners. Autism Learning Partners is in-home behavioral health behavioral therapists for autistic children. They do some clinics. We have some clinics, but primarily it's in the home and it's a very mission-oriented— that's kind of why I like it, you know, trying to do— and the clinical outcomes are measured. So it's not just a corporate board where you talk about revenue growth and bottom line and how are you controlling expenses and how are you controlling or how are you growing. A lot of time is also spent on, you know, the impact we're making on these children's lives. So it's very rewarding in that aspect. And I also was on a corporate board up until this past— I just rolled off of it a few months ago on substance abuse. So opioid treatment clinics. Again, you can see I like to keep involved in those companies that are trying to make a difference in people's lives. So that's kind of what I've been doing.

And yeah, that— well, I'm not surprised you'd be doing that. So as I was going, as I was starting to say, I bet I know the answer to this next question, which is, who is your role model?

You know, I, I had a few on the business side, a few role models, a few bosses in public accounting. Um, but you know, at the end of the day, the real role model was always my dad. Um, um, you know, he, he taught me a lot about life and a lot about passion and grace. Always trying to be, you know, humility and grace. And I think a lot of it goes back to, like we said, his upbringing, his, you know, doing a record 67 missions as a bombardier in World War II really changed his life. And he knew when he came out, he wanted to do something where he could be compassionate and help people. And, you know, he very much was, you know, he was Mr. North Baltimore in a way. He was a police— he was a chief of police, fire chief, you name it, drove the ambulance. But at the end of the day, he was the funeral director and, you know, somebody that was there for you in time of need. So that's always kind of been you know, the, the basis of, of my career as, as well as my personal life.

So, you know what, you know he would have to be like that because as a funeral director you have to have incredible grace and compassion and a level-headed temperament. Because I've always thought, oh my goodness, how do these funeral directors do this? For example, if it's a child that was killed, something like that. How do they do it? And I don't know the answer to that. I guess it's sort of inbred how they are.

I think a lot of it is. But, but, you know, you know, I also saw him at the kitchen table when the person died and, um, really didn't have family and wasn't, um, religious. So, um, you know, who was going to say something about this individual because he always personalized everything. And he would write and he would speak at a funeral about this individual and the things that he had accomplished in his life and what he or she had done. So, you know, he— and that really had a lasting impact, I think, on me, definitely.

Yeah. Well, you know, it had to. Well, that— how about from a business perspective? Do you have role models from the business perspective?

You know, I have to tell you that it was probably Bob Gray, who was my— he was the CFO of Highmark. He was a direct report to John Brause back in those days. He was, he constantly, he was one of those, not a micromanager, you've got it, you know, he hired me, you've got it, you run with it, you do what you gotta do, only come to me. He was always, and he taught me to always think about what your boss's boss question's gonna be. So when you're analyzing and coming up with a problem, an issue, you and coming up with a solution, what's your boss's boss? What's his number one question going to be? And so he always made me think, you know, outside of the box and always thinking up the ladder. So it was, what's the board going to say? What are their concerns going to be? You know, when you're presenting the budget, you know, so you're always thinking about your boss's boss, whoever that may be. And so I think, and Bob was definitely there when Barry died. And I was really questioning what was I doing in Pittsburgh. I just moved there. We were building a house. And why did I, you know, I just thought maybe I just needed to pack up and move and try something totally different. You know, just throw it all in. And he was like, you're just running, you're, you know, you're running and this is your family. You know, your family is Highmark now. And we're here for you. And so, you know, just quit running and just appreciate that we're here for you and we've got you.

So, you know what, you see, that's what's unusual is when someone in corporate America is like that. But I can tell you, they are. They have supported me, they've helped me, they've been there for me even during this time. When there were companies that, as you might guess, were apprehensive about disability employment with the DEI and everything else going on, and when Highmark found this out, oh my goodness, they doubled down. I mean, they stood behind me. And now, thank God, things are— those companies are all coming back, but That's Highmark, you know? That is Highmark. They'll take that extra step. So, Nan, over your career, including the work you are doing today that you talked about, what do you believe is your greatest accomplishment?

I think it's building a strong team that can think think on their own and comes to me for advice, um, and decisions, um, when there's various different routes you can go. Um, so I, I think that's, you know, when I look back on my career, I, I think I built, um, good teams. I think I've built leaders. Um, And I was always known for being very bold. I am sometimes too quick to make a decision, but people learned that. And my teams and the folks that, you know, I brought along realized that don't go to Nan with, "What should I do?" because she's going to tell you and then you got to go do it. It's best to come with a recommendation. I think we should do A, B, C, and here's why I recommend B. And, you know, then I can give my advice and support them. So I think that's probably my greatest accomplishment is that I would— I built really strong teams that have been very successful so that when I made the decision to go you know, and retire at relatively young age, there was no doubt in my mind that they were going to be successful and they were up and ready for the job.

Well, you did a good job. Yes, they were. Well, Nan, thank you so much for being with us today. And we end every show with a quote. And today that quote is from Thomas Merton, who said, "We do not find the meaning of life by ourselves alone. We find it with another." How true that is. And in the words of Mary Brooker, remember, when you get up tomorrow, choose joy. You can't lose when you do it. We will look forward to talking to you all next week. On epilepsy. As you know, it's Epilepsy Month, and we have Logan Uwalt, a young man, high school, who is phenomenal. Tell everyone you know about it, and see you then.

Voice America would like to thank you for tuning in. Please join us next Tuesday at 11:00 7 AM Pacific time and 2 PM Eastern time for another installment of Disability Matters, right here on the Voice America Variety Channel. We are the leader in live internet talk radio. VoiceAmerica.com.