O'Donnell/Schuller: Bazelon Center Latest Accomplishments/Mission

Welcome to Disability Matters with your host Joyce Bender. All comments, views, and opinions expressed on the show are solely those of the host, guest, and callers. Now the host of Disability Matters, here's Joyce Bender.

Hey everyone, welcome to the show. I hope you are having a great day today. Another beautiful rainy day here in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. But to me, I love Pittsburgh so much that every day is a great day in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Special shout out Yoshiko Dart. Oh my goodness, I just talked to her yesterday. Was it yesterday or the day before? I don't know, but I love her so much. I always enjoy talking to her. Yes, you go. I know you're giving me that shout out. Lead on, lead on. I love you too. And hey, to all of my listeners around the world, do you know how much it means to me that you are listeners to this show? From China to Finland to Spain. Do you know that every single show it's another country? Hong Kong. It means so much to me that you are all spreading the news so that we can work to try to break down that stigma toward employing people with disabilities and of course quality of life. And I always, every show have to thank— hi, Mark. What a great company they are. Highmark has stood behind me since I started the company, which you won't believe this, but next year will be, yes, our 30th anniversary of Bender Consulting Services. So, uh, that wouldn't have happened without a company like Highmark, who also is the sponsor of this show. Thank you so very much. It means the world to me to have someone that still believes in me and has helped me spread the news. So, okay, is Megan with us yet? No, but Holly is with us.

Hi, Joyce Bender here.

That voice, that beautiful voice of Holly O'Donnell, President and CEO of the David L. Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law. And everyone, we will have Megan Schuler, the legal director, joining us in a little bit. When she calls in, we'll get her right on. But I could talk to Holly O'Donnell every show, every show, every show. I just love her and I love talking to her. And Holly, I wonder this time if you would share with our listeners not just a little bit about your background, but what caused you to join Bazelon and why mental health advocacy?

I would love to. Thanks, Joyce Bender, for having me on again, and hello to your listeners all around the world, and a special shout out to my cousin Mike in Massachusetts who often listens to this show.

Mike, I love just that you listen. Good for you. Go ahead, Wally.

I joined the Bazelon Center 6 years ago. I joined because at that time I felt like doing advocacy work was critical, and I happened to be in a job transition. And I have long worked in advocacy for children. And I really believed that Bazelon's work in education and— which is sort of what initially drew me to it, but then learning all the work that it's done over many, many years, particularly for adults with all sorts of mental health disabilities, was just an important and awesome opportunity to lead an organization at a critical time when with an amazing team of people that are so smart and so creative to advance the rights of people with mental disabilities. And as you know, Eve Hill, our board chair and an amazing attorney, often talks about the work that the Bazelon Center does for people with mental disabilities ends up benefiting the entire disability community because people with mental health disabilities are often the most the most disenfranchised. So it was scary to join the Bazelon Center because I'm not an attorney and I didn't have a ton of experience in mental health particularly, but I was really drawn to the mission, to the people, and as you know, I love small nonprofits that do important work, and I think they are critical to changing the lives for the better for people in the United States from the community level to the national level. So, sort of long-winded, but that's what really drew me to the Bazelon Center.

Oh, no, that's good. That's great. I do want to ask you something someone asked me, actually, when I was at the Disability:IN! conference, and that is, Why do some people become advocates with disabilities, people with disabilities, and feel very passionate about it? But there are other people with disabilities that also feel passionate, but only a small percentage decides they're going to be an advocate of whatever area that they're in. What, what do you think is the reason? What would be your answer to that?

That's a good question. I mean, I think that's true of so many things, not just disabilities, and that people are doing their own part all the time. And so, it's— I would say, I would think it was a personal choice. But I'd be interested. I think Megan is on. Megan, are you here now? Yeah.

Sorry, I'm very new to radio. I didn't want to interrupt, but I am here.

Megan, welcome! We have Megan Schuler, the new legal director of the David Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law, and like, we are so excited to have her with us. And so, you know, Megan, this is heard around the world, so what you say is also going to be heard in China and Finland. So, we're thrilled to have you. What— go ahead and ask her that question again, or did you hear what Holly asked you, Megan?

I didn't, sorry. I would just want to say I am thrilled to be here and so sorry for the confusion at the beginning on my part. This is all very exciting and very new to me. Me, and I'm so, so flattered and excited to be on the show.

Oh, we're thrilled to have you. What we were talking about is there are many people, for example, people with mental health disabilities or families of people with mental health disabilities, and I told her that someone asked me recently, what do you think causes some people out of that whole group to become advocates while others choose not to?

Oh, that is a challenging question. I mean, I can say that for myself, it has been a long and winding journey. It's very hard to speak to others' experiences because I know for each of us it is so individual. And, you know, I am coming from having spent a very long time, over a decade, at the Department of Justice in the Disability Rights Section of the Civil Rights Division, where one of our oft-stated and repeated mantras was that every disability is a disability of one. And so, I mean, I can speak to my own journey of experiencing mental health challenges, going on a long journey of having to deal with the stigma that comes with that and not being comfortable speaking about it. And it really was eye-opening for me when I then became a civil rights lawyer and started working on disability rights and disability justice issues. One, to even think of myself as having a disability. I think many people with mental health conditions don't think of it that way. But then also learning about all of these powerful protections and tools that we have to fight for our rights and to change the way things are done and to combat stigma. And, you know, I think that lawyers are one very small piece of the puzzle on that, but it, for me, was a really concrete way that I could become an advocate for social change and social justice. And that was something that had driven me since I was very young. I, I honestly created my first petition when I was in second grade, um, my school. So it is something that was in me, but finding an avenue and an outlet and the knowledge of the ways that you can use the law I think it's something that not everybody, you know, is exposed to or aware of. And also, people find different avenues and different methods of advocacy that work for them. And so, it doesn't always necessarily look like labeling yourself as an advocate or working for an advocacy organization. But I think there's a lot of ways to be an advocate.

Okay. I have to know, what was the petition?

They used Styrofoam trays in our lunchroom at school, and I was very worried about the ozone layer, and the kids would poke them with their forks and break them. And I was just learning about the environment and the impact of Styrofoam, and I wanted them to get dishwashers and reusable trays. I failed, but they gave me a nice pat on the back.

Wow, wow. I, I can't— how old were you?

I must have been, um, well, my son is in second grade, so 8 years old.

Is that amazing or what? Wow, you were really a civil rights prodigy. I mean, you were really start— you're really smart. What do you think about that?

Holly, I am not surprised and I love it.

Yeah, I knew you wouldn't be surprised. Uh, well, you know what, before we go further, Holly, uh, if you could just take a few minutes so everyone knows listening to the show wherever they are, including around the world, because we know no matter where you are you can make a donation, uh, Holly, if you could explain to everyone what the Bazelon Center is, what services you provide, where you're located, and I— you can give them your website so that if someone wants to make a donation, they can make a donation.

Great, thank you. So, the Bazelon Center is located in Washington, D.C. We are a group of attorneys and advocates who support and advance the rights of people with mental health disabilities, and we do it through litigation, advocacy, particularly policy advocacy at the federal level, through technical assistance, um, so helping states and jurisdictions, like help develop housing programs. And also, we do some individual cases, and we do a lot of public education in terms of awareness of the issues, ways people can get involved in advocacy. And you can learn all about this at www.bazelon, B-A-Z-E-L-O-N, org.

Let's hear that website again.

It is www.bazelon, which is B-A-Z-E-L-O-N, dot org, org.

And when you go there, there's a place that you can make a donation. And I always tell people, when And I tell them this about our not-for-profit, the Bender Leadership Academy. When you hear something and you say, "Wow, thank goodness someone is doing something about this." Oh, well, they can't do anything about it without revenues. You know, I remember Holly, when way back in time, he's no longer there, but the CEO of the Epilepsy Foundation, We had just received all this money and he said, "I have all this money for this one restricted event, but I can't turn the lights on." And of course, what he meant is you also need unrestricted funds. And running a not-for-profit, I don't know, people don't realize, but it's really like a business. There's overhead expenses and to do all these great things. You need money. So if you are fighting the fight for people living with mental health issues and stigma and unemployment and isolation, go make a donation today. And thank you, Holly, for explaining all of that. So Megan, see, you didn't know this, but you know, did you ever listen to a radio show and they'll say, Oh, here's my favorite guest who I have on all the time, and they know the per— that's Holly. Holly, I have Holly on. She's like that guest I could say, here she is, my, my return guest, my friend that I love, uh, Holly O'Donnell, with, by the way, one of the most listened to shows, which is at the end of the year that Holly, Maria, and our newscaster Perry Jude is on talking about the past year for the disability community and the next year. So you'll be on again, she'll be on again, uh, everyone. But this is the first time Megan has been on the show. And Megan, I always tell this story, people will say to me, oh, they really— that person sound great. But who are they? Like, what are they like? Or why do they do this? Or where are they from? Where are they from? So if you could share your story, you know, like growing up, your family, going to college and then law school, and then what you're doing right now at Bazelon.

Yes, of course. And I mean, I can tell you that Holly has told me over and over how much fun it is to be on your show and how much she loves it. So, um, I was just thrilled that I could do it this time, and I was so sad that the last time I was supposed to be on the show I was called to court, um, which is the reality of the world that I work in anyway, um, on a case about the use of police responding to mental health crises instead of having a mental health response. To mental health emergencies. But before we get to that, which is more of an answer to your question about what are we doing right now, who am I? I grew up in different parts of New England. I was born in Exeter, New Hampshire, and then when we were 7, I moved to eastern— or western Massachusetts, rather, to East Hampton, Massachusetts. So most of my memories start there. And I can tell you that one of my formative memories from my early education was that I couldn't read when everybody else in my class could. And I cried every day and I didn't want to go to school. And my father would come and sit in the back of the classroom to convince me to go to and then by the end of first grade, I was able to read books and I won a personal pan pizza at Pizza Hut for reading enough books in the readathon. And I will never forget my first grade teacher, Ms. Brewster, who stuck with me and, you know, I think that That is a big part of the story of my academics, and I haven't always been naturally, I guess. It doesn't always come easy to me, but because of that experience, I was always the last one in every test, working up until the last minute, and Holly can tell you that's pretty much still true now. I'm always working right up until the filing to try to make it the best that I can. Sometimes I'm a little slower at things, but I think it has been a really important part of making me who I am today and bringing me here. So then fast forward, we then moved to Delaware, which is what I often use as my fun fact about myself because not a lot of people are from Delaware. There's more chickens than people in Delaware last I checked. So, I lived in Delaware when Joe Biden was the senator for high school. And both of my parents worked in education. So, they were both working at a high school there. Before that, my mother worked at Mount Holyoke College in Massachusetts, at UNH. But then they both switched to working at a high school in Delaware where I went to school. Which is always an interesting experience to have both of your parents as authority figures within your school when you're a teenager. But we got through it and I think did all right. And then I went to Yale University for undergraduate. And I— honestly, that's where my mental health journey began. It was a very challenging time for me, but I made the best friends of my life who are still my closest friends and stay with me. I actually still have many friends from high school too, and I just saw them recently. And so, you know, I struggled through at Yale, and then I went and I studied in South Africa, and that was a real turning point for me. Because I was surrounded by what felt like a lot of apathy in college. And then in South Africa, they were celebrating 10 years of democracy, and they were having an election, and people would stand outside all day in sweltering heat in order to cast their vote. And then when they did, they would get a permanent marker black line on their fingernail so that you could show that you voted. And it would take a very long time to grow off, but it was a real pride point for people. And everybody was always talking about social issues and politics in every context, whether it was in a restaurant or a bar or in the park or in the school. Um, and that really sort of changed things for me. That was when I first found a way to be an advocate and to try to work towards social change, and that really frankly helped my mental health too. And so when I came back to Yale, I, uh, helped found the first AIDS Walk in New Haven, um, which I believe is still ongoing annually to this day. And, um, I then went on A little bit of a winding journey after college. In case it's comforting to anyone, I graduated without a job and not knowing what I wanted to do. But I got connected with a lawyer who was an American who was based in London, England, and I packed up my bags and moved into a hostel and went to England and became a paralegal. And that was— I didn't want to be a lawyer before that. But while I was there, we worked on a race and sex discrimination case that really opened up my eyes to the power of the law, and it really interested me. It was intellectually stimulating, but I also saw the ability to make really concrete change and impact people's lives. And so, I then went to law school at Berkeley out in California. I got to march on the state as they kept raising our tuition every semester. I worked for the California Department of Justice Civil Rights Enforcement Section for one summer and then worked for the U.S. Department of Justice Civil Rights Division after that. And Through that work, I got to learn about and come into contact with the incredible attorneys at the Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law. And one day, while I was out walking my kids, I ran into one of my neighbors who works at The Arc, another disability rights organization that people may know. And he said, "Hey, did you hear that the Bazelon Center is Hiring a new legal director, you should apply. And here we are. So, at the Bazelon Center, I am the legal director. Ira Burnham is our former legal director and is now our senior counsel. And I am so grateful that he is— he is our senior counsel and is still very actively working with us and on our cases. And has become a wonderful mentor. And we are working hard. I will tell you, there is a lot going on in the world. And we are working on issues ranging from the use of police as the default first responders to mental health emergencies, which lead to people with mental health conditions being unnecessarily arrested physically harmed, and all too often killed. And so we are looking for creative ways to use the law to try to move jurisdictions in the right direction to establish and build up mental health responders or mental health calls, just like they send a health response to all other health emergencies in the form of EMTs and medics. We are working on campus mental health issues, which hits very close to home. One of the first cases I worked on was our lawsuit against Yale University, so it all comes full circle, for their treatment of students with mental health conditions and forcing them out of school instead of providing them with the supports and services they need. We're very grateful to have resolved that with a settlement and been able to reach an agreement with them on the changes that need to be made. Um, we also have other, um, similar cases that we are working on, including a lawsuit that is going to trial in November against Brown Medical School for dismissing a student with ADHD and depression instead of giving her a leave of absence to get treatment when she wanted to. We are doing a lot of work on issues of homelessness and homelessness sweeps that we are seeing spread rapidly across the country. And we're involved in the Johnson v. Grants Pass case about the criminalization of homelessness, which disproportionately impacts people with mental illness. And of course, we are doing a lot of different forms of work to just ensure that people can live successfully in the community. With the supports and services they need, using the Supreme Court's Olmstead case as one of the very powerful precedents that we often pursue in our cases around the country to make sure that people are not unnecessarily institutionalized when they could be living in their communities.

Wow, that's what I have to say. Wow, wow. And I have more comments to make about you, Megan. Right after we go to our news break with my favorite, my newscaster. Love her so much. Perry, are you with us?

Joyce, I'm with you.

I'll bet you like hearing this show, huh, Perry?

Love this show.

Love Basilone. Uh, I love being introduced to Megan. This is terrific. Really great show.

Megan, I'm on the board of Disability Rights of PA and Perry's the CEO, but Perry has been my news anchor on the half hour for like, what is it, like 6 years, Perry?

Uh, we're not quite to 6 yet. We're in the 5-year period.

Okay, 5-year period. But so you know, we're the only one anywhere, and I mean anywhere, that does a weekly newscast on what's going on in the country, in the disability world. That's why people know, oh, if I want to know what's going on, I need to go back to Spotify and listen to this show. So with that, Perry, what's our news for today?

Joyce Bender, so just a couple days ago, we passed the 100-day mark in the countdown or march toward the 2024 general election. It's only 100 days away. This election includes the presidential race. You have congressional seats, local races, and in some places, senatorial racist. So with this critical election approaching, I— it's really important that we remind your listeners about this upcoming election on November 5th, as well as the deadline for voter registration in Pennsylvania and across the country. You've heard it before on Joyce Bender's show: voting is not just a right, it's all of our responsibility in the disability community. By registering to vote, you can ensure all of our voices are heard and our values are represented in these decisions that impact our lives. Here in Pennsylvania, uh, the registration process is so simple and can be completed online, by mail, or in person. And changing your address— so if you've moved, you cannot vote where you used to live. You have to change your address. With the Secretary of State. But changing your address on your registration is just as easy. You could do it online, by mail, or in person. The deadline to register in Pennsylvania is October 21st. So please do it now. If, if you've moved, just do it now. Don't wait. Uh, to be eligible, eligible to vote in Pennsylvania, you got to be a U.S. citizen, a resident of Pennsylvania, and for at least 30 days before the election. Now, all the other states set their own voter registration deadlines. So it's important you check with your own state to be sure you are registered or to change your address. We know advocacy matters, and there's no better way to be an advocate than to influence policies, elect the next president, and bring about this positive change for people with disabilities. So please register to vote. Please change your address and make sure your voice is heard on November 5th. We have, of course, links on our website at disabilityrightsPA.org. That's disabilityrightsPA.org. You click on today's Advocacy Matters segment. You can find that link to register to vote in Pennsylvania or change your address with the Department of State, or you can get your state's voter registration information, uh, by clicking on vote411.org. So please visit our website at disabilityrightspa.org, click on today's advocacy matters segment, and learn more about registering to vote or changing your address to vote so our voices can be heard on November 5th.

I want to ask you a question, Perry. I always wonder who goes into skilled nursing homes to, you know, register people or see if they want to vote or provide the ability to vote. My question is, is there some law or they base it on the person's capacity, or, or does that not matter?

So, um, a couple things, Joyce. Uh, one, uh, here in Pennsylvania, we go into nursing homes to talk about voter registration and voting as a right for people in nursing homes, as well as to check on abuse and neglect. That's the one thing we do. There are social workers in nursing homes, nursing facilities that also help facilitate people's right to vote. Then your question about capacity is an interesting one. In Pennsylvania, there is no bar to voting if you are under a guardianship. There isn't. Pennsylvania has been a model state around the country for voters with all types of disabilities. So having a guardianship does not bar you from voting. There are some states across the country that still bar people from voting if you're under guardianship, or they may have carved out a limited guardianship to allow people to ask the judge, uh, to let them maintain their right to vote. So it's different in every state, uh, related to capacity.

That's very interesting. Well, listen everyone, when you vote, you have the power. You have the power to elect a president. Every vote matters. How many elections recent like the last one and the one before that, do you hear that it comes down to maybe 40,000 votes or 100,000 votes? Think about that. Register and get out there and vote and let your voice be known. Thank you so much, Perry, for the news today.

Thanks, Joyce. I can't wait to hear the rest of your show.

She is so awesome, I'll tell you. Isn't that great, Megan and Holly, how we have this news every week? I just love that so much.

I love it, and I have to take the opportunity to jump in and also share that the Department of Justice issued updated, um, guidance about protecting voters' rights, including about the question of guardianship., and they made very clear that the American with Disabilities Act prohibits a state from categorically disqualifying people who have an intellectual or a mental health disability from registering to vote or from voting if it's because of their disability or their guardianship status. Um, yeah, they are not permitted under federal law to do that.

That is good to know. Yeah, I wondered about that. I've always wondered about that, uh, because I think everyone should be allowed to vote without some type of diagnosis or whatever it would be. So I'm very glad to hear that. Hey Holly, before I go too far, because boy, time goes so fast when I have you on, um, you have a big event coming up. Do you want to talk about that?

Yes, we have a big event, and I looked it up before the show so that I could say how many days away it is. It is 49 days away. On September 17th, we are having the Bazelon Center's annual awards, and I am thrilled to let your listeners know that we will be honoring you with the Visionary Award this year, and you will be honored at the Press Club in Washington, D.C. You will be honored along with Senator Markey and others that will be announced soon. And we are so grateful to have the opportunity to shine this giant spotlight on you and Bender and the No Shame and all of the work that you do in mental health and also in disability.

Well, as you know very well, because you remember my reaction when you called me, I am very honored. I am very honored. So I'm not just saying it now because it's me. You've got to go to that fundraiser, and if you can't go, What did I say at the beginning? Donate. Is there a way you can donate now for that event, Holly?

Yes, you can go right to our website. It is on there. It's actually the second slider on our website, and you can click on that. That says Baselon Center's Annual Awards 2024. You click on it, you can buy a ticket, you can make a donation. And we look forward to everybody gathering in Washington, D.C. in 49 days, so before the election.

49 days. Wow, time goes so quickly, doesn't it? Amazing. Well, I am very honored and I am very proud to be on the board on the Bazelon Center. And I want to say something to you, Megan. When you told that whole story, I'm thinking back, oh, if you could only go back and talk to the you when the you didn't want to go to school. Look at you now. And by the way, Yale is not like exactly a Oh, we all go to Yale School. I mean, that is so— your story is so impressive. Why I'm bringing this up, any young person listening to the show right now with a disability, you may have dyslexia, you may have a mental health disability, you may have, you know, some disability you believe prevents you from being successful. When that happened, I want you to think about Megan Schuler, you know, and I want you to share this show with other people. I mean, from where that struggle at the beginning to her realizing in college about her mental health disability, look where she is. I mean, Megan, that is really a very great motivational story for so many people, but especially young people that I meet all the time at the Bender Leadership Academy that have been told they can't make it, don't go on. I was just with someone at the Disability:IN conference, and she's brilliant and very successful, who was told she has a mental health disability. Her parents that she should be in an institution. So I mean, it's just such a great story. Holly, I see why you love her so much.

We are very lucky.

Thank you so much. I think it speaks to the power of teachers and of education, but I think it's also sad that when I needed help the most in college, I didn't get it. I, I very actively I did not want to go get treatment because I thought I would get kicked out of school and I would lose everything I had worked for. And that has been a driving motivation of a lot of our work is to make sure that people can still have their autonomy and their dignity and get treatment if they want to do so and in the way that they want to do so.

Well, that shows you how strong stigma is. If you were afraid, if I tell this, I'll get kicked out. Although they were doing that at one time before that lawsuit that was fantastic that Bazelon Center got involved with, they changed all of that. But nonetheless, that is the stigma that people deal with that is so just terrible. Hey, Megan, before we go any further and before I take another call. Uh, tell us about Housing Not Handcuffs.

I would be glad to. Um, so I made a reference to the, the Grants Pass case, which was a Supreme Court case that was decided recently, where advocates challenged the use of criminal penalties for sleeping outside. Simply sleeping outside with any type of pillow or blanket, or even putting your coat over yourself as a blanket, is made illegal in a lot of jurisdictions in this country, as it was in Grants Pass, Oregon. And that—

wait, wait, wait, wait, it's illegal to have a blanket over you?

Illegal to sleep outside with any type of bedding. So yeah. Oh, even if you ball up your shirt and put it under your head You're breaking the law.

Ah.

And the result, you know, it may start with fines, but of course, who's going to be able to pay that fine? So the next step is that they get put in jail. And we know that's the wrong approach to homelessness. I mean, whoever you are out there, it doesn't even make sense, right? The result is that the person is going to then be released from jail and have an even harder time finding housing or employment or getting connected to services. They're gonna be traumatized and harmed, and we're not solving any problem through this approach. And so that's why we filed a, what's called an amicus brief, or a friend of the court brief, and we brought together a wonderful group of friends of the court, including the American Psychiatric Association and the National Association on Rural Mental Health and wonderful organizations that came together to say that this is wrong. But also this is disproportionately harming people with mental health disabilities. There are misperceptions about how many people who are unhoused have a mental health condition. It is certainly not everybody, but they are more likely to experience being unhoused. If you have a mental health condition, particularly a serious mental illness, you're more likely to be unhoused at some point or have housing instability. And these laws are more likely to lead to greater forced treatment and involuntary commitment, as well as incarceration. And so we tried in our brief to uplift What are, in fact, proven solutions? Providing people, first of all, with housing is a proven solution to homelessness. But I mean really, you know, deeply affordable housing, and integrated housing, and giving people their own apartment, and then providing them with the wraparound supports and services they need to be able to get the healthcare they need, to be able to have a job and be employed and a full participant in the community. And we know this works. We know it's more cost-effective. And yet so many jurisdictions are looking for a quick fix instead of investing resources into a long-term solution that works. And so Housing Not Handcuffs is a national campaign to end the criminalization of homelessness and to advocate for housing as a human right. A human right. They track state-level threats regarding the criminalization of homelessness, and also address the fact that a lot of these laws and attempts to divert federal funding and other funding away from long-term permanent housing solutions also make it easier to place psychiatric holds and administer involuntary medical treatment to unhoused people experiencing mental health conditions. And so there's a lot of information that can be found on housingnothandcuffs.org. They have a website. Again, that is all one word, housingnothandcuffs.org. And it was created by the National Homelessness Law Center. And the National Coalition for the Homeless.

Wow, that's so important. See what I mean about making a donation? I mean, that story, first of all, all I could think of when you told that story, Megan, people like me who live with epilepsy, although medicine prevents me from having a seizure, there are many people that don't even have access to medicine. And the first thing I thought about is how they tell people right away put something under the person's head. So this could not only result in prison, it could result in death, this whole story. I mean, it's so terrible. It really is terrible. Um, and I'm glad we have you fighting the fight for us, Megan. And by the way, anyone listening to the show, remember Spotify. If you want other people to hear the show, go to Spotify Or you can share it, which, Basilan, I know you'll want to share this show. Megan, I have to ask you before we end the show today, and Holly, do you think institutionalized people with mental health disabilities is still possible today?

Sadly, yes. There is a call across the country for more beds. There are states across the country, including sadly right here in Washington, D.C., our nation's capital, that are looking to lower the bar for involuntary treatment and commitment and confinement. And we are seeing a real increase in involuntary treatment and institutionalization. Instead of an investment in the community-based services that are far more successful and effective and humane and will actually provide us with long-term solutions.

Oh, so scary. How about you, Megan? What, what is your opinion?

Well, that was Megan, so this is—

I'm sorry, Megan. See, you two are starting to sound the same. Holly, what's your opinion?

I, you know, I agree with Megan. And I think it is unfortunate and scary. And I think that there is still a lot of opportunity, whether or not you think about it economically, whether you think about it just with your whole heart. And, or you think about, you know, help that you or a family member have received in the community. Sometimes I think about, you know, family that I've had that was in the hospital for an illness, and I visit them, and how quickly I wanted to get out of there. That really the solution is that we provide quality, meaningful help to people, you know, where they can be at home and be with their friends and family and keep their jobs, and that that really is the best path forward.

So true. Well, hey everyone, we've come to the end of the show. Every time I have guests that— oh, I love them, but you know what, I can have them back on again so we can talk more about this advocacy for people living with mental health disabilities. Thank you both, Holly O'Donnell, President and CEO of the Bazelon Center, and Megan Shuler, Legal Director for the Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law. Thank you both for being with us.

Thank you, Joyce Bender. Thank you so much.

And we end every show with a quote. And I've done this for years, and I love every quote. 21 years on the air. All stress, anxiety, depression is caused when we ignore who we are and start living to please others, said Paulo Coelho. This is Joyce Bender, America's Voice, where disability matters, at voiceamerica.com. And in the words of Mary Brocker, when you go out, remember, choose joy.

Voice America would like to thank you for tuning in. Please join us next Tuesday at 11 AM Pacific Time and 2 PM Eastern Time for another installment of Disability Matters right here on the Voice America Variety Channel. We are the leader in live internet talk radio. VoiceAmerica.com.