Pastors Stevens, D'Angelo, Paskey: North Way Christian Community

Welcome to Disability Matters with your host Joyce Bender. All comments, views, and opinions expressed on the show are solely those of the host, guest, and callers. Now the host of Disability Matters, here's Joyce Bender.

Hey everyone, welcome to this show, to everyone in the United States and around the world. First, Yes, this is me. It's just me has a cold. So it is Joyce Bender, in case you're thinking, wait, is this like a surprise host? No, it's me. So first, around the world— oh my goodness, we now have listeners in— ready? 17 countries. 17. From China to Australia to Saudi Arabia to Kazakhstan, Brazil, all around the world. So I want to say to all of you around the world, I don't care if you're in a country and you're the only listener, you can make a difference. You tell everyone English-speaking in the country about this radio show because we care about quality of life and dignity for people everywhere. And I've been to so many of the countries that listen to the show. And you know, I love all of you. So, a special shout out to Richard Roberts. Now, normally when I say this, he's in Brazil because Richard Roberts is the diplomat from the State Department that I've been with in South Korea, Japan, and next year I'll be going to Brazil. And, you know, I talk about him all the time because he— I love him so much. But guess what? He's not in Brazil. He's in the greatest city of America, Pittsburgh. He's at my office today. How about that? And I also want to say hello to Gang Young Cho in South Korea. Vinyamin in Kazakhstan, and my great friend Cheryl Harris, who's with the State Department in the United States, who I first met when she was working in Tunisia. So thank all of you. Hello, Yoshiko. Dart, special shout out to you, who I love so much, and to my great sponsor, Hi, Mark. What a great company they are. Today I have 3 of my favorite people on. I know they're all smiling just hearing me say that, especially Pastor Scott. I know you are. But we have today Pastor Dave D'Angelo, Pastor Ryan Paskey, and Pastor Scott Stevens from Northway Christian Community Church headquartered in Wexford. But as you will hear with many other locations, this is the church I go to that I'm a member of. And I can tell you, I was so excited to have them on because they are all great men and friends. I love all three of them, but you're going to see why in a moment here when I have them talk. And I'm going to start with Pastor Dave D'Angelo, who is over the whole thing. He's over the whole shebang, all these churches. He's the top man, and he went to Geneva, like another one that's going to be on here. Best college in America, and guess where I went? Geneva. So Pastor Dave, welcome. We have listeners, as you just heard, not only throughout the United States, but around the world. And I always like them to know a little bit about the person that they are listening to. So, would you mind sharing with everyone your journey, you know, how you got to this position, and why in the worship community?

Sure.

So, Joyce, thank you so much for having all of us. And you mentioned that we are your favorites. Well, you are our favorite as well.

We love you.

And are thankful for all the work that you do and for inviting us into this space to just chat for a bit. We are all, of course, super humbled that, that you would want to bring us onto this show that is broadcast around the world. So, my journey to Northway, it would go back a long way, but, but I will summarize it just a bit. When I graduated college at, you know, Geneva College, the Golden Tornadoes in Western Pennsylvania, I spent about 5 years working there in the admissions office, and I thought I was on track to be a professor. But as I've learned, God often has other plans from what we think is next and is best for us. And so I got invited to join a church on staff in Ohio, and I spent 10 years there learning and growing, and that's when I actually stepped in to be a pastor. And so after a great long run at a great church there in Ohio, through a mutual friend at Northway. I got connected to a job opportunity, and back in 2015, I began interviewing and accepted the job to come to Northway in 2016. So, that is 7 years ago. It's been a, it's been a great journey at Northway. And you mentioned several different sites. So, Northway is what we call a multi-site Church. We are one church in multiple locations, and we have sites all throughout the Pittsburgh region. So, in, in the city, right, right near the University District in Oakland. We have one in Sewickley. We have one in Rochester, which we call Beaver Valley. We have one in Dormont. We have one in Robinson as well. And we are also looking to grow east of the city and south of the city. So, 2023 is going to be a bright and fun year for Northway. So, Joyce Bender, we love you. Thanks for having us.

And it is so exciting we have all those sites. And now that I am thinking about this, for all of you listening around the world, you know, you can hear this show— this— you can go to church. You can go to Northway Church because it is live-streamed. Now, Pastor Dave, is that on the Northway website, or is that just on Facebook? How does that work?

Yeah, so we broadcast across all of the typical channels. Probably the most— the two easiest ways to find us is northway.org, and you can click on messages and you can watch a live service, a full service, or just a sermon. Or you can go to YouTube, and YouTube is where we, where we put all of the archives of all of our sermons and services. And if you search Northway Christian Community on YouTube, you'll be able to find us pretty, pretty easily. We make it as simple and as accessible as possible. So YouTube and our website.

See how great that is? To all of my listeners around the world, you can actually see and hear a sermon, a message from Northway. So if you have any more questions about that, just get back in touch with me or Voice America, and we will be sure to get back to you. So, Pastor Ryan, You have a new role at Northway. So when and why did you decide to go into the ministry? But I also want to thank you for serving our country, uh, because I know you're a veteran, a Marine. Is that right?

Yes, I am. Thanks, Joyce, so much. Once again, it is awesome to be on, on your show. Yeah, so I was in the Marine Corps Reserves and also spent some active duty time as, as well. And kind of tie that into how I got into ministry as a teenager, actually. My life was just changed as I got involved in student ministry, and I just came to know what a relationship with God was all about. And it's through that journey in student ministry that the leaders there opened up their lives and invested in me, just beyond the normal church services. They both listened. And they challenged me in my faith. And I knew from that experience as I grew older and graduated that I wanted to be able to do the same for others. Another goal of mine was to go into the military, and it was a great fit for me, but just that passion and that drive, God calling me into full-time ministry, I couldn't avoid that. So I ended up going to, ready for this, Geneva College.

And I ended up graduating.

Yes, I know.

Another one. Another one that made the right choice.

Ended up graduating from there and spent close to 20 years in a church in the Beaver County area, and it was wonderful. And then God started just tugging on my heart that there was something different. I didn't know what it was, um, but after just being faithful to follow him into that, he opened the doors for me to be able to come to Northway in 2019. And now I'm in the position of being able to be the campus pastor at our Wexford location. This is our first location, our largest campus. And yeah, gosh, now I get the honor of being able to lead our incredible staff in connecting with our congregation, as we say it, to know, experience, and follow God. And all of us, we encourage everyone to do the same, to share their faith and the love of Christ with their families, at their work, and in their communities, as we're really able to just share the hope of the Gospel with so many people.

And I actually have been going to the Wexford Church for over 20 years. So if you go to that main campus, I am going to say hi. I know Pastor Scott, he wants me to become a greeter at the door. That is what he wants, so I can wave to everyone. And I will be the most animated greeter at Northway. And here he is, Pastor Scott. He is the second Pirate fan in Pittsburgh other than me. There are two of us, two Pittsburgh Pirate fans. And Pastor Scott, he has a real— it's, by the way, it's Pastor Scott Stevens, Pastor Dave D'Angelo and Pastor Ryan Paskey. Uh, but getting back to Pastor Scott, you're famous. You were in Sports Illustrated.

Yeah, I was. That was a long time ago, Joyce. Can't believe you remember that.

Well, you know I have season tickets to the Pirates, so get ready. I'm gonna save you tickets for the World Series because we're not gonna lose 100 games this year.

This will be the first time in 3 years we are not gonna lose 100 games.

Well, you have a new title. I love this title, may I tell you. I don't know how anyone came up with this title: Executive Pastor of Generosity and Expansion. But you're still Pastor Scott to me, and the pastor I've known since I joined Northway, uh, and a friend A friend that abuses me, but a friend that I really do love. So Pastor Scott, you worked a lot with young people, um, as you moved up into your different roles at Northway. But if someone's listening to the show right now and they're thinking, hey, I sort of would like to go into the ministry, I want to do that, What advice do you have for them?

Yeah, I mean, I'm assuming if someone would want to go into ministry, right, then they're a believer. So I would challenge them the same way I would challenge any believer that's thinking about going to be a doctor or thinking about going to be an attorney or thinking about going to be a school teacher. Like, pray about it. Um, you know, we, we need strong— I believe Christians in all facets of the marketplace. And if you're called to be a marketer, be a marketer. Be the best Christian marketer there is. If you're called to be a nurse, be the best Christian nurse that you could be. So I'd encourage them to pray through that. Is that their call? Is that what God wants them to do with their life? So the same way in ministry, I don't think going into ministry makes you holier than a Christian that goes into nursing. I think that I would challenge that person to really pray about it, really get around some folks that have been in ministry for a while and learn, uh, what are the good things about it, what are the challenging things about it. Um, yeah, and if they feel like— and sense that God's saying ministry is for them, then let's do it.

Awesome.

And then what, what do you do? Do you go to seminary? That's what I mean. What do you do next? Well, to, to, to, to become a pastor? I mean, I know not everyone has that.

My opinion might not be like— it might not be the most popular opinion out there. I mean, I don't know. I think coming right out of like college or high school even and jumping right into seminary is probably not the best route. I would really encourage somebody to jump into a church and get onto a staff, work with students, work with kids, work with discipleship, learn as much as you can. You can head back into seminary a later season in life, which is what I did, and pick up some of the theology and the languages and some of the stuff that would really help you in ministry. But I don't know. I think sometimes if a young person comes right out of college, jumps right into seminary, they come into a church with a lot of head knowledge, but not a lot of people experience. Like, there's a lot of stuff they don't teach you in seminary. Dave and I and Ryan were on a text this morning, and a member of our family just lost a 4-day-old baby. Like, they don't teach you that in seminary. Like, you've got to get into the mess of life with people, and, and you've got to be empathetic, and you've got to pray for them, and you've got to give them hope. Um, and they don't necessarily teach those things in seminary.

Yeah, that— you know what, actually, I think that's good advice. Another thing about that What you just said, you're going to know if you're really able to do this, because just as you said, not everything is, uh, easy. You know, life is not easy. Things happen. I know I lost— you do— a very close friend of mine, and it is the worst thing that ever happened to me. Ever. But, um, I remember Pastor Scott left his birthday party to come to my house, to Mary's house, and which I'll never forget that. But you know, these are the things pastors deal with. That's my point. Getting that phone call, Pastor Scott, Mary died, you know, or Pastor Dave you know, what you just said, my— a child in my family, or, you know, Pastor Ryan, I am going through domestic violence, whatever it would be. People do not always think about that. They just think about the person at church getting up front, you know, preaching a sermon, saying hi to everyone. But it is far more involved than that. And as you just said, you may find out Hey, I can't do this. That doesn't mean you're not a good person. I like what you said about you can be a Christian doing any job. When you said that, I couldn't help but think about when Martin Luther King Jr. said about doing any job, saying you could be a street sweeper, but the best street sweeper that has ever lived So all the angels of heaven say, there goes the best street sweeper, meaning he meant no matter what your job is, that professor, no matter what it is, it's how you do the job. And, you know, here we are on the air today, and everyone knows that I live with epilepsy and I'm hard of hearing. You know, my listeners and you all know that my life is a crusade. For the employment of people with disabilities. Um, and we are doing something awesome at Northway. So for all of you parents of children with a neurodiverse disability like autism, wait till you hear this. Pastor Dave, would you share with our listeners what you're doing at Northway in reference to Autism.

Yeah, of course. It is one of the newest additions in terms of the ministry menu and environments that we have. We launched at our Suwikli Valley location. It is where it started and it is growing and expanding to a few other locations. It is what we call the Autism Ministry at Northway. And it is an environment that is led by someone who is professionally trained. And someone who creates a team of volunteers who are very well experienced to come alongside kids who have autism to do ministry with them and for them and on their behalf and just basically create an environment where they can thrive during church. And one of the beauties of, of that model, whether it's, whether it's a full integration into our classroom or whether it's a one-on-one you know, mentoring and relationship. It is really catered to the needs of each specific child. But one of the beautiful things about that is, is while the child is being cared for and ministered to in the autism space and in children's ministry, the parents can, can experience church for themselves as well without having to worry about their child or maybe share duties where one parent goes into church and the other parent maybe has to stay home with the child. We really felt like coming alongside not just the child who is experiencing autism, but the entire family, and creating a space and trusted, effective ministry that can really help them, because we want kids as well as adults to know, experience, and follow Jesus. So that's why we launched the autism ministry, and it's going great. Lots of folks are involved. The community is excited about it. We are, we are partnering with other opportunities. We are hosting, along with the Tim Tebow Foundation, the Night to Shine in February. We are super excited about that. And then we just got connected to a national franchise. It is a coffee shop. It is called Bitty and Beau. And this is a, this is a coffee house business opportunity that seeks to employ children or adults, young adults who have autism. And so it's really like launching into autism ministry has opened up incredible opportunities to do more than just ministry on a Sunday morning. And so Swickley Valley is our first venture into this, and we are building out plans to expand in Wexford and then also eventually at our Dormont location next. So lots of growth, lots of excitement. And the best part is, is families have really been loved and taken care of, and they feel connected at our church. And because everybody needs community, so we're super pumped about this.

Well, I know that means a lot to me and to all of our listeners that you're doing that. You know, a few things I want to say. Pastor Dave, when I've talked to him about disability, you know, at the church as a form of diversity, he came to me first and he said, "Hey, you know, I've got to get you involved with this because we want to make sure we're including disability as diversity." And I just can't tell you Pastor Dave, not only how much that means to me, but that unfortunately a lot of other churches aren't doing that. And that just shows the type of person you are, um, and I just want to thank you for that.

Well, thanks for saying that, Joyce Bender. Pay the compliment right back to you. You're, you're an incredible advocate. I've I gotta say, I've never heard someone look at their life as a crusade, uh, and a— and, and, and really take on their work as mission work. And you do it for the Lord and for people, and it's a beautiful thing for all of us to watch and, and grow from. So your influence in my life has been large. So thanks for being a part of our church.

I love the church. And that reminds me of anyone listening right now, This church does many things. They believe in social justice, and they are involved in human trafficking, pre— trying to prevent human trafficking. And you probably know I would not be involved with a church that didn't have social justice included, of course. In the Christian belief, which is number one. But I, I want to tell you that, you know, my listeners, you all know I had an accident in 1985 when I went to a movie theater and I had a seizure and hit the floor so hard I fractured my skull, had a brain hemorrhage, and life-saving brain surgery. That's That's what got me on this road. One night, one seizure. But what a lot of people don't know is that because it was during the intermission of a movie, that when I had this accident and my husband had just come out of the restroom and found me on the floor with all these people around me, there were only about 20 people because everyone else was in the ongoing movie. And this man comes out of nowhere and he says to Bill, my husband, 'Wait, wait, wait, don't let her get up, don't let her do this.' He called the paramedics, called the hospital, um, stayed with me until the ambulance came. And that is why Reader's Digest Joyce Bender wrote a story about me called "My Angel at the Movie Theater." Who knew what would happen? But I assure you that God has been with me, and I can't tell you how much I love this church. And Pastor Dave, how does someone listening to the show make a donation to Northway?

Thanks for asking, Joyce. We, you know, our ministry is pretty wide-reaching, and we appreciate the generosity that comes in so many different ways, shapes, and forms. And in the year that we're living in now, 2022, most gifts come electronically. So as listeners around the world, we would, you know, we'd love to have you as a supporter and a partner through your generosity. So if you visit northway.org, it's Northway .org. You can click on the Give tab, and there's multiple ways there to be able to contribute to all the different ministry that Joyce is connected to and, um, is really, really supportive of. So visit northway.org and click, click on Give.

Okay, and you know, you can give up that Starbucks and make that donation because they can't spread the word of God, they cannot help people around the world, they can't help people in human trafficking, they can't do all this great work in autism without money. A not-for-profit is really like a for-profit, still a business. You know, you still have to have money to pay people, turn on the lights, operate the church. So Um, it's the end of the year, it's the holiday season. Make a donation. Pastor Ryan and Pastor Scott, I've been reading some things lately that really disappoint me, and recently I read that one-fifth of young adults who attended a church as a teenager said "God seems missing from my experience of church." And this is just one of the reasons. There were many reasons given that they have left churches. And I wonder what you would say to them. Pastor Ryan, we will start with you first.

Yeah, thanks, Joyce Bender. You know, it is interesting you say, "What would I say to them?" Ironically, the first thing I would do is I would listen. I would listen to their story. I would listen to their hurt. You know, each person, as we know, is so different. And yeah, there's a lot of people we run into every week that just come out of a situation of church hurt. But we all in that, although we differ, we all need the same thing, and that's relationship. And we're all built for relationship with God. I know, as I told you my story, when I was younger. That's what I got to experience because before I really had a relationship with God, I was missing God from my experience in church because I just did ritual. It just was a religion to me that was just based in ritual and without relationship. So I would— I would sow as I do every week. I would listen, but then I would point them to just the opportunity of not giving up, not basing it maybe on one bad experience or a couple bad experiences, and invite them into what it is to have relationship. And that really starts— the beautiful thing is with community. You know, we have a phrase that says, you know, we're challenged in rows, but we're changed in circles. Getting together on Sundays is so important because we get to be challenged by the Word of God. But, you know, then we put it into practical life, and that's where our small groups come in. And then we get to do life together and we're changed that way. So, as I talk to people and we get to talk to people who are, you know, who come from that background, who have those experiences, it's coming and say, "Hey, take another look. Come walk with me." And it's not just pointing in there, but it's saying, "Hey, come walk with me. Let's walk together in this. Let's experience community. And let's maybe get out of just ritual of it and see what relationship looks like with God, a daily walk with Him, get to know Him in His Word." 'Word' here. And also get to be challenged and sharpened by other people just like you in real life who are walking through this thing. And it takes time, because some people just want to give one slick phrase. It is not about that. It is about doing life together.

Yeah, and I agree with you. And Pastor Scott, another thing, you know, I even heard you talk about this once, that You know, you'll be somewhere and you are very charismatic, and then you say, 'I'm a pastor,' and everyone wants to take off. But I feel, I feel that's because of people. You know, I hear young people all the time, 'Oh, there are more hypocrites in that church than anywhere, and why would I go there? They're so hypocritical.' Um, And as I said, I don't see God— is not in my experience at the church. Both of those things, what would you say about that?

Yeah, I mean, I think Ryan really spoke to it well about talking to the teenager about it, but I'll take a different tact here. Um, you know, I think sadly, if you don't— if a church is not going to be intentional about reaching teenagers, they're not going to reach them. Um, so many churches have not changed their style of worship in 50, even more years. Um, you know, teenagers are not walking around with the hymn channel on Spotify. Like, they're not, you know, kids, teenagers aren't learning how to play the pipe organ. And I think so many churches, and if they love the traditions and it's working for them and people coming, great. But if they look around and the average age is my age, 61 and over, then they've got to be intentional about reaching out to teenagers. And, you know, I worked at a church before Northway. I've been at Northway like 21+ years. So like this is 25 years ago, and this senior pastor at this church, they had a 9 o'clock and 11 o'clock service, very traditional. Fire robes, you know, the whole thing. And he made a bold decision, and he said, "We're going to have a traditional service at 9 o'clock, and we're going to have a contemporary service aimed at young people—not just teens, but 20-somethings and 30-somethings—at 11 o'clock, which means guitars and piano and drums. We're going to preach differently. We're going to do different worship. We're going to speak right into these young people's lives." And he lost some people. Like, some people left the church and said, "Hey, I come to 11. I've been coming to 11 for 30 years." I'm not going to sit here and listen to guitars, but here's what I know: there's a whole lot of churches around that church that are no longer open, and that one's still thriving. So, you know, if we want to reach our teens— and Northway has done this, like Jay Pasivin, you know, the lead pastor, the founder— he was always very intentional. Like, we are not going to lose our young people, and that means you've got to, you got to change. It's a beautiful thing to sit in church and see a grandparent like his son or daughter and his grandkids all sitting in one row. And that's because we've always— in other churches, I mean, we're not the only one that does that— has gone after that, that young age group so that they really can experience the Lord in a way that they can, they can connect.

I know my sister one time went to a church and they told her, and it was just how you described, choir, very traditional. And they told her that she could not sing in the— they have a choir, but they also have, you know, solos, etc. And she plays the guitar and sings because she wasn't an official member. And I remember thinking, "Mm, well, that's a good way to get people to come to church." Guess what? That church has about 20 people now. I'm not kidding you. You have to be able to relate to people, including young people. And how about this? By the way, at our church, like, we have the most awesome worship team. I mean, they are phenomenal. I always tell Amy she could be on The Voice. I mean, we have incredible worship at our church, but it does not— you know, you have to be— you have to have the right heart. You want to include everyone. And I don't know, Pastor Dave, what do you think about that?

Before I get to that, I just want to come back to something Pastor Scott mentioned— the hymns channel on Spotify. And, uh, I'm gonna have to search for that because I haven't—

I didn't know that was on there.

But thanks, thanks for pointing that out, Scott. That's brilliant. I know my takeaway from today's time is I think he should have his own podcast. I think it would be great and entertaining and fun to listen to and educational. Um, yeah, so Joyce, I think, I think that the churches are always battling attention between, um, keeping people or reaching people. And I, I believe deep down in my core, um, every one of us is created with the image of God and It doesn't matter what our ethnicity is, or our gender, or our ability, or our disability. We are all dignified and valued and important to God because we bear his mark. And because of that, the church should always stay in a posture of reaching everyone for Jesus. But if you study the scriptures, if you look at the earliest moments in the church that are recorded, there's always a tension. Of how do we keep the people here happy and not ruffle feathers because this is just the safest way to do things. And that's not how Jesus operated. And you can see Paul in the scriptures was very intentional about only doing that which is most important, which is worshiping the Lord. And they talked about not eating food that was sacrificed to idols. Other than that, Paul said— I'm paraphrasing here— Paul talked about the idea of all that other stuff, it doesn't— it's not important. It's about focusing on Jesus and helping people know and hear his message and his truth. So I think your question was about reaching and including lots of different people, and I would say yes, that's, that's the call of the church, because as I said, everybody is created in the image of God, and churches have to make sure they're not afraid of change. They have to make sure that they're not stuck in a, in a religious mindset, that they're not married to tradition, but that they're focused on Jesus, and Jesus is focused on reaching people.

And you know, there are a lot of young Christians that— teenagers and young adults, probably everyone for that matter, but I'm speaking specifically about people I've talked to who were young adults. They go to church, but they have a lot of questions, um, and they have the perception that they can't ask those questions or it will offend someone. And you know that they have doubts at times about their faith, and I wanted to ask you, is it wrong to have doubts and to have questions when you go to church?

Uh, it's not wrong at all. And I think, I think Jesus is— you, again, you look at how he approached things. He, he went to people and he engaged them right where they were. They didn't have to clean their, their life up before they could be in his presence. They didn't have to know everything and get rid of all the doubts. He just came to them as, as they were. And so I think the church should be a place where people can bring their questions and bring their doubts and keep asking and keep experiencing conversations. And, um, and if you're in a space where, where you're trying to worship the Lord and ask questions and they're not they're not open to those and questions are not welcomed, you know, that might be a sign and a time to maybe find a different space. It's never a sign to quit trying and seeking God. I think Ryan talked about that just a few minutes ago. We've all had bad church experiences. We've all been mistreated in some way, shape, or form, but it doesn't mean that we quit. We have to keep going because following the Lord is absolutely worth it. And so, at Northway we welcome people's questions. We love to sit with folks and get coffee with them and engage with them. Now, I will say this, Joyce, and this is probably not a popular thing to say, um, sometimes we don't like the answers we get to our questions. And one of the things with with doubt and with the Lord is when we look, when we look into the scriptures and when we see him speaking to things, um, we have to, we have to be willing to trust him and listen to his voice and, and allow him to answer our questions by the searching of scriptures. And it's not always to what we thought the answer would be or what we hoped an answer would be. That's a hard part. Of following God. But I will say welcoming questions and doubt and, you know, any sort of thing in between there is— that's a part of who we are as a church because I have questions. I have things I don't understand. I have doubt that I wrestle with when it comes to my life and the raising of my family. So, yeah, we welcome those things, of course.

Joyce Bender. Well, I think everyone does have questions, but one day Pastor Scott told me one of his favorite verses, and it's in Deuteronomy, I think Deuteronomy 29:29. And basically, if I recall, I'm going to paraphrase it, we aren't going to know everything in the mind of God. And has not all been revealed to us yet. Is that sort of a paraphrase, Pastor Scott?

Yeah, that's it, Joyce. It's— it's— you got the verse right too. The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but what has been revealed belongs to us and future generations. And what has been revealed is Jesus Christ. And, uh, that's what we can hold on to. There are things, and I think it's good that God's got secrets. If I know everything, then I'm God.— and that'd be a terrible God. So, secret things are good things that the Lord holds on to. And I also love, like, there's a quote— I love Mother Teresa, I've been in India and walked some of the steps that she did, and love her prayers— and she said this line that's always stuck with me. She said, "When I get to heaven, God has a lot of explaining to do." And if that woman can say that, meaning that there's a lot of things she just does not understand, that do not make sense, that, that cause her to doubt, um, then I, I mean, I think we can all work through our doubts.

And you know what I would sort of compare it to? You're a little child and you're trying to understand why everything happens. You're not going to. It's impossible. And I always think we have these little teeny tiny brains in comparison to someone that created the universe. So like, I don't think we're going to know everything. I think that makes perfect sense. Um, and I want to say, here we are during the holiday Christmas season. Uh, by the way, Pastor Scott, do you have that candle lit? Of course. Okay. Um, Pastor Ryan, I know how shocked— years ago, I don't know why, but when I thought of the Virgin Mary, I think of a woman, you know, I think of an adult woman. And especially look at those nativity scenes, she's an adult woman. And I, I said, Wow, when I found out that she was a teenager, how the heck did she ever possibly deal with this? You know, it's one thing going to someone and saying, "Yep, you're gonna have a child, but you're not gonna be with a man." I mean, that's hard enough to try to comprehend. Now, add that you're a teenager hearing that.— and like, have you ever thought about that, Pastor Ryan? What an amazing person she had to be to deal with that.

Oh, yes. And you know, it's amazing, we so often— and I get it why we do it— we just ascribe our cultural moment to stories in the Bible. That's why it's so fun to dig into it and to study it. And to learn more about it because you do, you grasp, there's so many layers and you grasp more appreciation for these things. As we know culturally back at that time, yes, people married younger, and, but yeah, it's easy to think of Mary being an adult. The thing that I love about that though is she's not the only one. As you continue to dig, you'll notice there's stories that might be familiar to many of us. Maybe those who don't even read the Bible that deep, but the whole story of David and Goliath. David wasn't a, you know, a middle-aged man at that point. He did— some Bible scholars say he was around 17 years old, maybe. He came to visit his brothers. He was bringing them food. And the next thing you know, he stepped into that moment and he was obedient to God to follow the voice of the Lord. Next thing you know, he's a champion over, over Goliath. Most of the disciples, they were thought to be in their teens to early 20s. You know, you look into stories like the Book of Daniel. Daniel, his 3 friends, Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, they were at the start of that story when they were taken captive, they were really young. So, there's those stories you see where, my goodness, they're teenagers taking these stands for God. You know, you also see on the flip side of that, talking about Daniel, it's interesting because there's stories there too, Daniel in the lion's den. And I know I've even seen pictures of it. And you know, sometimes you think of Daniel being younger in that. Once again, scholars say he at that point, it was later in life. He was around 80 years old when that happened. He's being dropped down into a pit of lions. Yeah, yeah, that story there, he was much older. But you know, the one thing I pull out of that that's so exciting with Mary as a teenager, or maybe on the other end of the spectrum, is this: faith doesn't have an age requirement. It doesn't mean that finally when you hit 10 years old you can really follow Jesus and have a relationship with him. And on the opposite end, when you're in the legacy stage of life, when you're at the, the latter years there, a silver-haired saint, you know, there you still keep living for God. You don't have to hit a certain age to start following him, nor do you ever retire from your faith. That's just a real, really cool thing to realize. I say it this way too because It's so cool at Northway, and I know there's many other churches that believe this too, but at Northway, yes, we look at our kids and our students. They are the church of someday, that's true, but we also believe they're the church of today because there's no such thing as, I always say, as a junior Holy Spirit. It's the same God that speaks to me and walks with me is the same God that's walking with that child in our kindergarten class. And so that is a really exciting thing to realize, and powerful as well, as we get to grow together as a church.

Yeah, it is. That is amazing. By the way, I never knew Daniel was 80. That does not fit the pictures I have seen drawn. Justice, I am going to say it now. This is going to sound blasphemous, but to my knowledge, it does not say there were 3 kings. Number 3. Yeah, no, I told someone that, you know what they said to me? They said, maybe, maybe that's your Bible, but it's not my Bible. I said, well, I'm telling you, it does not say the number 3. I don't know how we come up with all these things. But just look at that nativity scene. You're gonna see them, three kings, three kings from the Orient. There they are, even though there weren't really three.

A couple things put together there in the nativity scene to kind of put it together that aren't necessarily all in order there. But yes, the pieces are true, but it doesn't mean the timing's true, that that's exactly what it looked like. We do know the best thing though, that Jesus was there. God God became flesh, Emmanuel, God with us. And he came down and, man, he came down, put on flesh to do what we never could, to be the perfect sacrifice for our sins. It's the greatest expression of love that we see there. And that's a beautiful thing we see in that nativity story. We see hope, the fact that there is a God that loves us beyond measure. And he not only freed us as Jesus grew and then was on the cross, for our sins and then rose again, He didn't only just free us from the bondage of sin, but He frees us for— here's this phrase that we've said several times— frees us for relationship with Him and the incredible plans He has for our lives, for each and every one of us. And it's been said different ways, you know, so far, but God doesn't ask us to clean up. He doesn't say, "Clean yourself up and then come to me." No, He comes right to us. He came into just the the muck and the, uh, just the dirt of our lives. He put on flesh and he is with us. He is with us and he loves us beyond measure. But he doesn't call us to clean up to come to him. That's what, that's what I love. He offers everyone that gift of salvation, which is beautiful. Each and every one of us, to every person, regardless of where you're at or what you've done in your life, his arms are open. He says, come to me, my son and my daughter.

You know what I always think of when I hear a pastor say that? And that is so true that he did not say, 'You be perfect and then come.' I always think of Billy Graham and that song, 'Just As I Am.' I always think about that, 'Just As I Am.' In other words, 'Come to me, whoever you are, whatever you have done, just as I am.' And you know, Jesus, He did these unusual things. He picks people to follow Him that are fishermen, tax collectors, this unusual group of people. Then God has Apostle Paul, who murdered people before, and then In Matthew, where it shows the lineage we have of Jesus, we have prostitutes. I mean, I think— I guess he was just trying to say, 'Just as I am,' right? I mean, don't you— and yeah, also, also, don't think you're all that. That's what I think he was trying to say, although I don't know that Jesus would talk like that. But don't think you're all that. But we're not all that. So you get the point that I'm trying to make when I say that. But Christmas is a wonderful time and everything about it is wonderful. But I hope you'll always remember that during this time you should love people, be kind to people. Be generous with what you give. Too bad, you know, my favorite author is Charles Dickens. It is too bad it is not like this all year, not just at Christmas. Random acts of kindness and all that, not just at Christmas. Pastor Dave, before we go on, one more time, How does someone make a donation to Northway?

Joyce Bender, you already explored Pastor Scott's title. It's the Executive Pastor of Extension and Generosity. So I really personally feel like this conversation is— or this question is one that you should answer. I'm just joking around. Yeah, just if you visit our website, and of course, I would just say if you're considering that, man, we're humbled. And thankful that you would. We are deeply appreciative of everyone who contributes to the ministry and the efforts that are far-reaching, not just in Pittsburgh but around the world. We are very active in partnership with lots of different organizations and ministries around the globe. So northway.org, and then click on Give, and you can make a contribution. And I would just say this: I don't know of any other place, other than the local church that's actively and in an engaging way teaching the truth of Jesus Christ. There's no other better place to, to make an investment to that makes an eternal difference. And so even before you go and click that, thank you. Thanks for considering it, and thanks for, uh, giving generously to Northway.

Well, and I hope you do, because I think you can tell I love this church. You all know who I who I am and what I'm like. So, you know, I think this church is the real deal. Pastor Dave, I love the church services at Northway. And Pastor Scott, am I imagining it, or one time did they have a camel at church? Am I imagining that?

No, no, way back in the day, like 20-some years ago, we would we put on these Christmas pageants. Yeah, they have a horse and camel come right down the center aisle. And, um, yeah, they'd make some mess sometimes. Um, it was, it was a little gross, but, uh, yeah, we did that. Like sheep and lambs. And, uh, we used to, we used to pen them up back in the kids ministry area. And, uh, yeah, that, that was pretty gross. Like, we were gonna have to—

yeah, I told someone that. They said they wouldn't do that. I said, I'm telling you, It's when I— it's amazing I'm still there, huh? It's when I first started. I turn my head, I see this camel coming right away. I'm thinking, what are they going to do? What are they going to do if it has to go to the bathroom? This is going to be terrible during the church. But I remember that. I just want to make sure I'm not losing my mind when I thought about that. But we don't have camels right now. Pastor Dave, no, when are the services at Northway for Christmas? Yeah, so online— wait, and this is for if you're in Pittsburgh or Beaver or Swickley or really anywhere in the Pittsburgh area.

Yeah, so I wish I could give you an exact answer of the service times for each campus, and I cannot, sadly. There are, um, probably more than 25 individual services across all those locations, but Our website, northway.org, will be streaming a service beginning on Christmas Eve that you can tune into. And of course, if you're in Pittsburgh, I know at Wexford we have a Thursday night and a Friday night service. That's the 23rd and 24th at 7. And then on Saturday, which is Christmas Eve, we have services at 1, 3, and 5. And then of course, each location has one— has services on Christmas Eve. And then also on either the 22nd or, or 23rd. So lots of options to choose from. But our website also has a really neat map that can help you figure out where you live and which campus is closest to you. So you can jump online and see that. So we would love to see you at a campus. And if you're in Wexford, the three of us, that's where we will be posted for these five services. We'd love to say hello. So if you're there, come and say, hey. Let us know you were listening and you, uh, you're visiting for the first time. We'd love to welcome you, and we have a gift for you. We'd put it in your hands, so it'd be a great Christmas.

All right, well, I want to thank all three of you for being with me today, and we always end with a quote on the show. So today it has to be from Isaiah 9:6. 6, for to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders, and he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. I wish everyone a very Merry Christmas, and in the words of Mary Brocker, remember Choose joy.

Voice America would like to thank you for tuning in. Please join us next Tuesday at 11 AM Pacific time and 2 PM Eastern time for another installment of Disability Matters right here on the Voice America variety channel. We are the leader in live internet talk radio. VoiceAmerica.com.