Pérez, Mida, Jordan: Kick-off of #NotAshamed Campaign

Today's episode of Disability Matters has been previously recorded. Please enjoy today's episode. Welcome to Disability Matters with your host Joyce Bender. All comments, views, and opinions expressed on the show are solely those of the host, guest, and callers. Now the host of Disability Matters, here's Joyce Bender.

And hello everyone, welcome to the show and welcome to Pride Month. I am so excited about this show today. But first, special shout out to Yoshiko Dart. Yoshiko, every show for over 4 years, you know I love you, Yoshiko. And to all of my listeners around the world, from China to Finland, you know, we have listeners in 17 countries. Some of those countries may only have one listener, But I want to tell you, that one listener makes a difference. You can spread the news to other people in your country who are English-speaking so they can listen to the show and they can spread the news about quality of life for people living with disabilities. So much I appreciate all of the countries with listeners. Thank you. So much. And of course, to all of my fabulous listeners in the United States who have just been wonderful supporters, I really, really appreciate it. And of course, how could I forget our sponsor, lead sponsor of this show? Hi, Mark. No surprise. Hi, Mark, my partner, as far as I'm concerned, when it comes to employing people with disabilities, best company in America. Hats off to you, David Holmberg, for receiving that Corporate Champion CEO Award at the AAPD Gala. And that AAPD Gala, someone on our show had a lot to do with that. So let me tell you, I am so excited about this show for many, many reasons. Uh, but Jason Maida, this is who I was talking about, who I always call my son Jason. Jason is the person that coordinated that entire gala and the recent FDR Legacy Memorial Committee legacy Gayla. And I know with the Dole Foundation and many, many, many, many more. And right now he is working on the Not Ashamed campaign with me for Pride Month. I cannot think of a better person to start with. So, Jason, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Joyce Bender. It is so good to be here.

So Jason, um, I always do this, you know, I like our listeners around the world to know about the guest. So first, could you tell everyone about Maiten Associates, some of the projects you've worked on, like, and about you, like what caused you to want to do this, the work that you do?

Absolutely. I'm happy to do that. And again, Joyce Bender, thank you so much for having me on. Really honored to be on the show. So I started MITA Associates about 11 years ago, and my goal was really to leave nonprofit advocacy organizations stronger than when we found them. And one of the reasons why I'm passionate about this work is I truly believe and the intersectionality approach that we have to have if we are to achieve full inclusion and equality as we aim for full social justice for everyone. And so we work on a lot of different causes. As you mentioned, we have a lot of clients in the disability rights space. We do a ton of work in the LGBTQ space. You know, in terms of identification, I am an openly gay man. I am an Asian American. I am the son of an immigrant, and I am also a person with a mental health disability. So all of those identifications for me, I do my best to roll those into all of our efforts. Because the truth is, I think no matter who you are working with, all the issues we are talking about tonight, the Not Ashamed campaign, or today, all of those things really factor into this overall inclusion movement. So I am just honored that I get to do that with so many different clients.

And you do such a great job. Great job. Uh, Jason, a question I have for you. I know you worked before with HRC. I've always wondered this. How and when did this start, this Pride Month?

Oh, that's a good question. So Pride's been around a lot longer than I have. So the organization I used to work for full-time is the LGBTQ Victory Fund and Leadership Institute. And they were actually started by the Human Rights Campaign. So really worked more with Victory Fund, but Victory Fund is definitely a product of, of HRC way back in the day. So Pride is, is something that, you know, began decades and decades and decades ago before I was even born. I was born in the late '70s and it was already around. And this really grew out of a desire to just be visible. You know, one of the things that Harvey Milk, for example, always said is, "We need, we have to be out. We have to be out to our family. We have to be out to our friends." And sometimes that's the biggest part of the battle in dealing with the coming out process is just telling people. It's so incredibly hard. I remember the first time I told a friend that I was gay, And it was just, it was terrifying in some ways because you don't know what response you're going to get. So I think these Pride parades and the Pride month and all the festivities that come along with it are extremely important because it allows people to not only express who they are, but to reaffirm who they are. I think a lot of this is about reaffirmation.

Yeah. Well, you know, I've been to the Pittsburgh Pride Parade. Uh, you know, I remember years ago that when I went through, there weren't many, many of us standing there watching the parade. And there was a time this parade was not that big. But oh my, that I missed it when our master of ceremonies was Billy Reporter. How about that? For all of our listeners, you see, he's pretty— he's a Pittsburgher. Let's remember that. We, we claim him because he went to the YES CLO Academy. The story is, as a young man, they thought, wow, this young man is awesome, and he, he'll have to come for our classes. And he said, well, when are they? And they said, on Sundays. And he said, Sundays? Oh, I can't go. My mother won't let me go because of church. So he left. And this one guy ran after him and said, look, we'll work it out. Come back. There you go. There comes Billy.

That's a great story.

Yes. And because he's a Pittsburgher, when Kinky Boots was produced by the CLO a couple years ago, 3 years ago, he himself came and played the part, which was unbelievable. But I always wondered about that, Jason, and I know it's hard for people to come out, but guess what? It's hard for people to say they have a mental health disability. I mean, it's amazing, this coming out. This coming out is like, you know, this one young friend of mine, and he is gay, said, "I do not know what was harder, telling people I have a disability or that I am gay. I do not know which one it was." But you are integral, right at the center of the Not Ashamed campaign for the Bender Leadership Academy, which, of course, I am the founder of the Bender Leadership Academy. But why is this project So important to you and also why are you now willing to speak up about your mental health disability?

Those, those are great questions and thank you. Well, I'm extremely passionate about this project for several reasons. I think one, self-identification is so important. It's important for us to speak our truth because when we speak our truth, not only are we better off, but we're able to help help more people. We're more immersed in communities than we were before. You know, one of the reasons, Joyce Bender, why I'm talking about my mental health disability now is that, one, I know it's something that I need to do for me so that I can move forward in my life and have the most productive and healthy life possible. But also, and maybe even more importantly, It is, it is something that I feel is necessary so that I can influence and impact other people. My goal is that talking about a mental health disability in 10 years won't be a big deal. Now, it still could be, but our goal is to, you know, chop down stigma as much as possible, create opportunities where people can reaffirm themselves, and, you know, just solidarity. I think about, you know, the, the, my, the, the wonderful guests that you have on tonight, and Katherine and Asher. We are all part of a community, and being part of a community, uh, brings safety, it brings clarity, it brings energy, um, to take on those fights. So the Not Ashamed campaign to me is so incredibly crucial and is incredibly important during Pride Month. When you look at LGBTQ people, especially young people, and what we go through, it is incredibly important that there be a safe space. And I think what this does is it allows people to talk about their mental health disabilities or psychiatric disability and also do that in the context of being an LGBTQ person. And so when you do that, and when I do that, The hope is that you're not just influencing one community, but you're influencing communities within communities. So, you know, if you're LGBTQ, you can be an LGBTQ person with a mental health disability and still be two separate things in terms of your identity, or they can mesh together. But either way, what we need to do is make sure that we're meeting individuals where they are. So that people have a platform to speak, and so that the audience out there and those struggling know that they are not alone. It is so much easier to be out and to be honest about your truth when you know that you are not alone.

Yeah, this is what Mr. Rogers used to say. He would say, "If you want to be happy and successful, you know what is the most important thing?" Be your authentic self. Because when you're your authentic self, you're free. You know, you're free, you're free to breathe and be happy when you are your authentic self versus hiding in the shadows. And I think you agree with me, Jason, about this, not ashamed, as you see the intersectionality across the board. And that's why I was so thrilled to start this month with the LGTBQIA+ LGBTQ community because you can be gay and have a mental health disability, or female, or Latina, or African American, or indigenous, no matter what it is, Asian. But I think you'll agree with me that because of the bullying, exclusion, family exclusion that has gone on for people, especially young people when they're growing up in this community, that many of those same people end up with mental health disabilities. Because as you know, we've read so much and heard so much about suicide. You know, would you agree with that?

There's an interconnection at times I think, I think there is definitely an interconnection. And, you know, again, I think providing safe spaces for conversation is so incredibly important. And, you know, we throw around that term a lot, safe spaces, right? And I think we need to, we need to talk about what those safe spaces are and what they mean. And I think in this case, What it means is that you are not alone, that you should not be ashamed of who you are. If anything, you should be proud of who you are. And I think, you know, Joyce, you were talking about this earlier with the show being in so many different countries, and, you know, some countries are going to have more listeners than others. If you can impact one person, which I'm confident we've already done through this campaign, it's worth it. It truly is worth it. But I'm confident we're gonna impact thousands of people, maybe even millions of people through this campaign. It's gonna be a campaign that we need to sustain, and it's gonna be a campaign that's gonna go on for several years and continue on into the future. But those safe spaces of support where people feel that they can talk about issues that they're dealing with, whether it's from being an adult dealing with an issue or dealing with an issue from their childhood, It's just so incredibly important that we provide those safe spaces and that people know fundamentally that they are not wrong. If you have a mental health disability, you are not wrong. You belong. You belong with the rest of us. And we are strong and we are, you know, living our lives and we're having healthy, productive lives. And that's also the message that, You can be all of these things and still do whatever you want to do. I run a company, I'm involved in a lot as a volunteer, and I'm able to do all of that and still have a mental health disability. Is it challenging at times? Of course. But the reality is we can live those productive and healthy lives.

And you are incredibly successful and work with people who are senators or the president or celebrities. Properties, but you care about everyone. And I just want to say that my friend Richard Roberts with the State Department, who I first met in South Korea when I went there, and then when he moved to Okinawa, I went there with the State Department, and Gyeongyang in South Korea, and then you mean in Libya, and I mean in Kazakhstan, and Cheryl Harris from Tunisia, now the United States. All of these people from the State Department, they'll go with me to meetings where I'll speak across the country, and they can't believe the shame that people feel when they have a disability, how they don't want to tell anyone, or how their parents are ashamed of them. Therefore, if you are listening to the show right now, remember, you are awesome. You should believe in you. And mental health disability does not mean there is anything wrong with you. You are a person like me. I live with epilepsy. That's just part of who I am. But I am not ashamed that I'm living with epilepsy, nor should you be. With a mental health disability. It's just part of who you are. And 1 in 4 people live with depression, so I assure you, you are far from being alone. See, that's why Eve Hill, who is the chair of the board of Bazelon Center on Mental Health Law and a well-known national mental health rights advocate told me from the beginning, and that's why I went with this campaign, Not Ashamed. When I said at that Bender Leadership Academy, we're helping high school students with disabilities deal, fight bullying, and prepare them for work, what can I do the most to help them? When I started the Mary Brocker Mental Health Initiative, and she said, shame. If you can just get them to not feel shame, because they are even ashamed to tell their parents, "Something is different with me." So, same thing anywhere. You, anywhere in the world, no matter where you are in the United States, or in North America, or South America, you remember, do not be ashamed. And Kat, Katherine Perez, It is so nice to have you with us again. And Katherine is the Director of the Cuello Center for Disability Law Policy and Innovations. And everyone knows how much I love Tony Cuello, author of the Americans with Disabilities Act. But Kat, for our listeners around the world, let's start by you telling them what the Cuello Center is and what you do there.

Hi, Joyce. Thanks for having me. It's an honor, especially during Pride Month, because I also identify as a queer individual in addition to having psychiatric disabilities and being a Latina, second generation, grandparents who immigrated from Mexico. So, I am an activist, an attorney, I'm a law professor, and I am the director of the Cuello Center, as you said, which is located at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles. And we do a number of things, but one thing I wanted to share today that I'm so proud of is our program working on the pipeline of bringing more people with disabilities to go to law school and become attorneys and judges and public servants like Tony Cuello. And this project The purpose of this project is to increase representation, to have folks with lived experience in the legal field so that we are representing ourselves. So, nothing about us without us. I was really happy today, one of my law fellows from this year just texted me, called me today, and told me that because of a blog post that she wrote on the Apollo Center blog post, the White House contacted her and asked her to come talk about reproductive justice and disability rights at the White House later this week. And I was just so excited for Angelica Vega.

Wow, that's awesome.

Yeah, and she was so excited, and I'm not surprised. I mean, these students that come through my program— now we've— this is our fourth year that we've had the Kualo Center, so we've had 4 classes, about 25 students per class. And it doesn't surprise me because each one of these students, although they are college students or recent college graduates, they are already leaders in their own right. And because they have the lived experience, they are the experts. So, it is, it is no surprise to me that they just need folks like us to elevate them, to do exactly what we are doing here today, tell them not to be ashamed, to have pride, and to tell their stories. and then get them into, um, those places where decisions are being made.

You know, uh, and that is so awesome. Katherine, tell me, what are the qualifications to go to the Cuello Center? And if you are accepted, what happens then?

So the Cuello Law Fellowship Program is just one program that we do at the Cuello Law Center. And we run our applications around spring of every year. And unfortunately for listeners right now, the next cycle has already closed, and we've accepted our new fellowship class for 2022-2023. So, we have 25— actually, I picked 27 this time. And this is the first year that we picked international folks as well. So, there'll be a cross-cultural cross-disability rights lens that, that we'll be introducing within the fellows. But for folks who are interested in part of our 2023-2024 class, they just have to check our website for next year. And the qualifications are you just have to be a person with a disability who's a college student or a recent college graduate who's interested in going to law school. That's it. You don't have to submit, you know, your GPA, transcripts, nothing like that. We're really looking for folks who have lived experience and who want to be part of leadership. That lived experience and that passion for disability rights is really what counts for us.

And where is this located?

So, because we take fellows nationwide, and now we're starting with international, We do have an in-person component, and it's just a short week in July, the end of July. But then throughout the rest of the academic year, we meet virtually on Zoom. So we were on Zoom before Zoom kind of became cool during the pandemic. We were already— we were already on that platform, so we will continue to do that.

You'll continue to do it, but what I mean is you're with Loyola. And so you're in California?

Yes, the Apollo Center is part of Loyola Law School, which is in Los Angeles.

And beautiful. I mean, I went there for more than one of your events, and it is beautiful, beautiful location. So, Kat, now you. What made you want to be an attorney?

Um, my passion for disability rights is what made me want to be an attorney. My sense of disability justice formed at a very young age because I have a sister who's a year younger than me who is autistic and has intellectual disability and a number of psychiatric disabilities herself. Um, so that was my first entrance into the disability world through, um, being a sibling and being a volunteer in like the Special Olympics and summer camps and things that my sister went through. But actually, I had my own I have my own disability story. I just, as you were talking about coming out in both the queer space and LGBTQ space and then also in the mental health space, that totally resonates with me because I had my first coming out with having mental illness at the end of high school when I finally couldn't take it anymore and I was suicidal. And I was fortunate enough to tell my parents and they plugged me into the psychiatric system to get support. And I had my other coming out in, sadly, my— not till my third— my early 30s when I came out as gay. I wish it would have been sooner, but it is what it is. I'm living a happy life now, and I have a wonderful fiancé, and we're so excited to get married.

Oh, congratulations! That's wonderful. Isn't it something? Thank you. Katherine, how the connection there about that coming out. Isn't that amazing? I mean, like I said, oh, I'm gay, or saying, oh, I have a mental health disability. And I loved when you told at the beginning all of your accomplishments, because once again, if you are listening, just like Jason, look how successful she is. And what she has accomplished in her life. And by talking about this, of course, you know, Katherine, that you will be impacting so many people, but specifically those law students that I guarantee you, you'll have people say to you, "You know what? I never talked about this before, but I have this mental health disability." And how do I know this? Every time I speak somewhere, someone will come up to me and say, "You know, I don't want anyone to know this, but I have epilepsy." All the time this happens, all the time. But kudos to you for what you're doing because I just think it is so awesome. So we talked to you about Not Ashamed and you really did not speak about your own mental health disability, you know, before that. Why is that?

I think Sadly, it has to do with the stigma. I think I've gotten by pretty well being a disability rights activist and advocate on other issues that hit close to home and were important to me. For example, I work at the intersection of immigration and disability. I do a lot of work around that. The Kolo Center does work around that. But I've never really done a lot of work in the space of mental health, which is really interesting because that's my disability. And I think, again, it's just, you know, and this is why folks shouldn't beat themselves up about, you know, feeling shame or feeling the stigma, because it really is real. As someone who is the director of a disability law and policy center, I myself still feel that shame and stigma sometimes and still feel, you know, still feel like I have to weigh the options sometimes whether to disclose or not to disclose, because sometimes You know, it can be harmful in certain places to disclose, right? But also, I think it's just the type of mental health disabilities that I have. I think the ones that I normally talk about are that I have major depression and major anxiety, and I've been diagnosed with PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder. Another diagnosis that I've had is Borderline personality disorder, and that is a diagnosis that I think is particularly stigmatizing. Um, so that's something that I don't talk a lot about. Um, and then from my youth, from my earliest memories, I had symptoms of mental illness, although I didn't have the name for it. And really, the genesis of a lot of my mental illness came from obsessive-compulsive disorder, and specifically it came from religious Obsessive compulsive disorder, it's also called scrupulosity obsessive compulsive disorder. Which is really interesting because now I work at Loyola, which is a Catholic school too. But they're very accepting, of course. But when I grew up, I grew up in a very Catholic family. They still remain a very Catholic family. And I still, you know, for folks who are wondering, no, my family is actually not accepting of me being gay. Go through those struggles still, even as an adult. But when I was younger, I had this disorder of religious OCD, and I feared that I was never good enough, that I was always sinning, that I was going to be possessed by the devil, that, you know, any bad thing that I would learn about in Catholic school, it was going to happen to me, and I was the worst. And I have OCD that's in my family. I have family members with it. So I think I was to an extent predisposed to it. I think it was gonna happen in one way or another, but I think my environment sort of fostered that. I know when I finally came out about my religious OCD symptoms, I even had a family member tell me that maybe I was possessed by the devil. Wow. So it's, it's that, those stories of my early childhood and what I went through with my religious OCD, are very difficult for me to talk about. And I think not only particularly stigmatizing, but it's also something that because, although I'm not practicing Catholic anymore, I still feel like I'm culturally Catholic and I have a family who I love and respect. And sometimes it's difficult to toe the line between talking about my religious OCD and not saying negative things about a faith that people truly believe in.

You know what I think? I think you're awesome. You know that? Here you are, you didn't talk about it before, and now look how you're talking about it. You can feel free forever, Kat, because they're hearing you all around the world. And you know what you're doing? People are listening and they're saying, oh man, That's me. I have to be courageous like that. I mean, you— hey, Jason, can you believe this?

I know. And I would just like to echo something that Catherine said because I think— and sort of build on that. I think what Catherine said is very honest and important that there is still rejection. There is still a lot of shame that is being instilled in people, whether it's around a mental health disability psychiatric disability, or just being LGBTQ. I remember when I first came out, I had a dear, dear, dear friend who sent me a birthday card, and this was shortly after I came out. And I opened it up and it was a birthday card, but what it was was a scripture about how I was a sinner and how I was wrong. Um, and those things happen to people all the time. I think it's very important in the LGBTQ community, for example, you know, the It Gets Better campaign, which is incredibly successful and very much true and something that I personally support. But I think it's also important to remind people that coming out experiences, no matter what you're dealing with, but in particularly in the LGBTQ community, there are kids who are coming out today who are being kicked out of their homes. There are kids kids today who are coming out who are being put into conversion therapy where that is still legal. And those things are happening on a daily basis, which means we have to speak out on a daily basis. And I think through the Not Ashamed campaign, what we're going to be able to do, instead of siloing these messages, we're going to be able to take these messages and really talk about them in a broad way that maybe it just hasn't been done enough. And I think that, you know, what Katherine just said, I just want to thank because even that, you know, sort of leaning in, it makes me feel better about being open and talking about things that I am struggling with. So, I just really appreciate what Katherine said.

I would like to say something about this. I am a person of great faith, and I have been for a very long time. And here is what I have to say about all of this. When people say terrible things like that about people from the LGBTQ community, I say, "Well, you know, my God doesn't make mistakes. So you're wrong. Period. End of story." He doesn't make mistakes. And it's terrible, like that example you gave me. Is absolutely terrible. And do not do it if you are listening. And do not say, "Oh yeah, well, you know, if you were a person of faith—" I am! Do not do it. You are wrong. You are wrong doing it. You are wrong doing it. You are wrong. So do not do it.

Well, and Joyce Bender, if I can just add, the other piece of this is not just the stigma piece and, and what kind of feedback you get. I remind people all the time, especially during Pride Month, if you were— if you're LGBTQ, you do not have full equality in this country yet. So there's not only the battling the stigma, it's literally deciding that you are going to affiliate and, and recognize yourself as part of a community that is not equal under the law as it exists today in 2022 in the United States of America. I think that's really important. Um, I'm confident I was born gay, uh, and I was born in 1979, and to think that it's 2022 and I still don't have full equality is really something. So I think we have to keep pushing and we have to take our energy and our passion and just put it into this and not let up.

Oh, well, I agree with you. 100%, Jason. And so Asher— oh, I love Asher. Asher is a Bender person, and Asher, he is awesome. Uh, he's from the transgender community, and I know he went through a lot with that whole thing, but I want to say he is an absolutely fabulous, great employee that I got to sit with. Oh wow, and we were seeing Halloween at the movie theater, talking about it the whole time. Uh, but, but I just love Asher. He is so awesome. So Asher, how about you? Did you— and Asher also has a disability, which I'll have him talk about. Did you deal with shame making it known to your family and friends about being transgender and having a mental health disability. What was it like for you?

Hi Joyce, I just want to say thank you so much for having me on the show, especially with such amazing guests as Katherine Perez and Jason Maida. It's incredible to be here. Um, regarding my experience with, um, the stigma and shame in, um, both being a transgender gay man and having a mental health disability. I have had to fight for recognition, um, over and over and over again. Um, in regards to my mental health, I told my parents something wasn't right when I was in like 7th or 8th grade. And this was after years of horrific bullying, and they told me everything was fine, um, and they didn't believe me until the school called in 8th grade to tell them they had caught me self-harming. Um, in regards to my gender, I came out as transgender pretty late in life. I realized when I was 17 that I was transgender and then spent the next several years and probably spent the rest of my life coming out as transgender. Um, my friends were immediately accepting of it and were my biggest support through the first couple years. I faced a lot of backlash from my family because they thought I was just mentally ill and disabled and I wasn't able to be transgender. Um, when I was discussing the questions for the show with my mom, um, my mom brought up that because of my autism, I hyperfocused on a book series about cats when I was a preteen, and I began acting like a cat and getting super involved in this fantasy world about cats. And she thought that I was just having the same sort of hyperfocus on the LGBTQ+ community, so she kept waiting and trying to tell me I wasn't— I wasn't a man. Um, you know, being transgender isn't real, you're what you're born as. But meanwhile, I was growing more and more comfortable with the understanding that I was a transgender man and learning how to function and cope with my mental disabilities at the same time. I can definitely see that my autism may cause me to view gender and sexuality differently. Autistic people are generally more likely to be a part of the LGBTQ+ community than people without autism. Um, But even if my autism is the reason I'm transgender, I still think that my identity as a gay trans man should be respected. People think there's the person and then there's the disability, and that's not true. Our disabilities are a huge part of us. You cannot talk to me and have me in your life and not have my disabilities be a part of your life too. It's, it's who I am. And I think there's so much shame surrounding both communities because many people view both being transgender and being gay and mentally disabled as complicating things. And I personally think it's more complicated to build up this entire civilization that focuses on there only being two types of people, men and women, and only making room for these these two perfect boxes when people come in a vast variety of different types. People want things to be black and white, but there's a lot of beauty when you bring in the colors in between. Everyone has different lives and experiences and things that make them unique. And sometimes we categorize them as being LGBTQ+ or as being mentally disabled or physically disabled, but we're still whole, incredible people. We all have so much to to the table. I think the world will get infinitely better when we start breaking down the barriers that keep us apart, whether those be gender barriers, or marriage barriers, or class barriers, or disability barriers. We were always meant to be a community, to come together and make each other stronger. And the longer we spend dividing ourselves and excluding others by making them ashamed to not fit in our rigid boxes and definitions, the more pressure we put on ourselves and the more we find that those boxes never fit anybody at all.

I remember when he said to me, Asher, thank goodness I didn't take my life because I wouldn't have been here to see all this great stuff that has happened. I'll never forget that, ever. And, uh, yes, thank goodness that we have you. You had shared when you spoke at the Disability Mentoring Day Gala that you had attempted suicide several times. Is that correct?

Several times. You know, even now, I think it's been over a year at least since my last serious attempt. Honestly, even just last night, um, last night was really rough for me, um, and the thought came in my mind, and it's so hard because I, I really don't want to die. I don't want to. It's just sometimes there's so much going on that you kind of just wish it was different, um, but then I look around at You know, I have family and friends that love and support me, um, but my, my biggest saving factor is I have a Chihuahua that is so difficult. He is so annoying, and I am convinced that he would never find another home after me because he is so hard to deal with that he would be bumped around to different homes and different shelters or put down. And Every day I wake up and I think, I have to get up because I have to take care of this dog. And, you know, even just this morning when I was, um, crying, he climbed up on my lap. And I've never— he's never been taught to be a service animal. He's never been taught to be an emotional support animal. But he climbed up on my lap and he licked all my tears away, and he sat with me while I was upset.

And what is his name? His name is Panda. Okay, well, first of all, I want to say this: you are a great employee and part of the Bender family. And there is another reason. First of all, you can— I've told you before, no, no way, no way could we ever lose you, Asher, because you're helping me change the world. Think of all the people that you've been helping. You know, Ted Kennedy Jr., here he is, he has heard all people, different speak, speak different things, and he was watched, you know, through streaming the gala, and he says to me, you will not forget that name, Asher Jordan, because he is a disability rights leader. And you are, and I want you to remember that. I think about every single day that you're helping me change lives. And Jason, what words of encouragement do you have for Asher?

Well, to be honest with you, Asher is the one who's giving me the encouragement. Asher, I just want to say I was blown away by some of the words that you had just said. I loved what you said about, you know, between black and white, if we let the colors in between, you know, there's a lot we can learn. We can all be in this together. And I think that that's incredibly important. And I would also say that, Asher, you talking about self-harm and those things, you know, it gives me the strength on a radio show like this to say that that's something I've struggled with as well. And I don't know that I would have that strength if Asher didn't. So Asher, you're not only changing lives, you're helping You're helping me right now just by talking about your journey. And I think that, you know, when you look at suicide and you look at these things that we struggle with, you know, imagine being told that you are wrong, that you are intrinsically and inherently wrong. It's different than being told you did something wrong. We all mess up. We all make mistakes. But I think, you know, part of what Asher is talking about is that it's very hard to get up and start your day when you have that in your head, and sometimes in your heart, and sometimes in your soul. And it never truly goes away. It's always there, and it's always gonna be something we're fighting. So my encouragement would be, we need more Asher Jordans, we need more Katherine Perezs, we need more people speaking out, and we can make a difference. We can make a difference. It doesn't always have to show up on a chart or in some statistic or a study that comes out. Real life change happens when we tangibly change other people's lives one-on-one. It all starts with us. So again, I just want to thank Asher, want to thank Kathryn. Joyce, you know, I get so much encouragement and love from you each day. And we've got to be there for each other. And I think this call is just evidence that when we are, we're stronger.

Yes. And by the way, listening to the show, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline, 800-273-8255, 800-273-8255. Any thoughts at all suicidal, pick up that phone. You're— this is a mistake you can't change. Pick up the phone and dial that number. How about you, Kat? What do you think about Asher?

I am also taking notes over here and feeling encouraged to be braver, and I appreciate Asher's words. I, too, have dealt with a lot of suicidal ideation. And I think in particular throughout the pandemic, it's just been exponentially harder. And I think a lot more people are entering our community of having suicidal ideation, having mental health issues. And when I think about recently with all the discussion on school shootings, You know, one thing I think that we don't talk enough about is about, you know, all the kids who are going to have trauma from this and who are also going to struggle with mental health issues. So again, I think it's important and I'm glad that folks like Asher are so open and speaking out.

Yeah, my heart goes out to those families, to those kids. And you know what, Asher, Jason, and Katherine, you may be saving lives right now. You're not just talking in the United States, you're being heard around the world. So keep that in mind. Anytime anyone listening to the show, 1-800-273-8255, you can save a life. Just by saving yourself. You know what great role models for everyone listening to this show. Jason Maida, Katherine Perez, Asher Jordan, you inspire me. But I know there are people listening to this show right now, they're going to hold on to this. And if you're listening and you wish one of your friends or your family had heard this show, remember Spotify, Go to Spotify and subscribe, Disability Matters with Joyce Bender, you can hear the show. So in closing, Jason, I know we have about 5 minutes left. It's benderleadership.org. You know, this is all about Mary Brocker. So hard for me to talk about Mary. When I lost Mary in that tragic tragic hiking accident. But she spent her life living with clinical depression, wanting to help people. Actually, it's because of her that Asher is working for me right now. Her loss has been so horrible for me. But this is why we have the Mary Brugger Mental Health Initiative and the Not Ashamed campaign. So Jason, as we're getting ready to leave the show, what do you want to say about the Mary Brocker Mental Health Initiative and the Not Ashamed campaign.

Well, I just first want to say, and truly thank you, Joyce Bender and Asher and Katherine. If I'm being honest, I had a really, really bad day, and in large part because of my mental health disability. And having this be part of my day reminds me why I do what I do. And so I really appreciate it. It's not only helping our listeners tonight, or today, I think it's also helping one another. So thank you for that. In terms of Mary and her legacy and the Not Ashamed campaign, as someone who loved Mary and as someone who knew Mary, I think Mary would expect no less of us than to continue on with this campaign. It's what she would want. I think she would love that we're talking about her right now and that we're talking about this campaign. Blown away by the intersectionality that we're bringing to the table. But what I would say to everyone listening is we need you to be a part of this campaign. This isn't a campaign about raising money. This isn't a campaign about having something go viral. This is a campaign that is aimed at changing people's lives in a truly tangible way, one by one, Sometimes we get to touch people, more people at one time than others, you know, through this platform and others. But the Not Ashamed campaign is crucial. And the last thing I will say is that I am so glad and so privileged and so honored that I got to know Mary Brocker because I'm stronger and I'm able to talk about my mental health disability because of Mary and her legacy. And I'm confident that that is living on as we speak.

Yeah, yeah, Mary lived with clinical depression for like 40 years of her life, and she always— she talked about it. She wanted to help young people living with mental health disabilities. And so folks, go to benderleadership.org. Jason has helped with this fabulous campaign. Where you can take a video of yourself on a phone for just 30 seconds saying, "My name's Joyce Bender," and whatever your mental health disability is, and wherever it is you work, and at the end, "not ashamed." Go to our website, benderleadership.org, and you can get the details Asher, Jason, Catherine, it was awesome to have you on the show. Thank you so much.

Thank you, Joyce.

Thank you, Joyce. Thank you, Joyce.

All right, well, we end every show with a quote, and today the quote is, "I believe my depression will help others who cannot talk about it," said Mary Brocker. This is Joyce Bender, America's Voice, where disability matters, at voiceamerica.com. I will talk to you next week.

Voice America would like to thank you for tuning in. Please join us next Tuesday at 11 AM Pacific Time 2 PM Eastern time for another installment of Disability Matters, right here on the Voice America Variety Channel.

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