Poor People's Campaign COVID-19 Health Justice Advisory Committee/ Moral March on Washington

Welcome to Disability Matters with your host Joyce Bender. All comments, views, and opinions expressed on the show are solely those of the host, guest, and callers. Now the host of Disability Matters, here's Joyce Bender.

Wow, wow, wow! That's what I have to say about our guest today. Wait, wait till you hear her! I'm so excited. Okay, in the meantime, before I forget, hey, a special shout out to my friends in South Korea and Japan, Gangyong Cho and Richard Roberts. I've told you all this before, but when I speak across the world on the employment of people with disabilities, it's an embassy that, you know, asked me to go there. And I met these two, Richard and Gangyong, and guess what? They're working on a show that they're advertising, our show, from South Korea and Japan with guests on from there. So look for that coming. And to all of you around the world listening to this show, thank you for helping me help people with disabilities and change their life. And that includes, of course, the corporations that sponsor this show like Highmark, People's Wells Fargo and the Employment Options. Thank you very much. But hey, we got to get right down to it because we have Dr. Cheryl Barber on the show today. I am so— I want to tell you, Dr. Barber, I am so honored to have you as our guest today. I am just so thrilled to have you with us. Welcome to the show.

Thank you so much. I appreciate it, Joyce Bender, for all the work that you do. Thank you so much for making space for this conversation.

Oh, my pleasure. So before we talk about COVID and the impact on the Black community of people with disabilities, I don't want to waste time because I want to make sure we get to talk about this right at the beginning, the Poor People's Campaign Virtual March this Saturday coming up. And everyone listening, I want you to share this on your social media with everyone, but how about if you tell our listeners about that walk?

Yes, yes, yes. So, thank you so much again. And so, I just want to say that, you know, in my role as coordinator and national advisor of the COVID-19 Health Justice Advisory Committee for the Poor People's Campaign, it's just been an honor to be alongside this movement in the midst of this pandemic. One of the reasons is because, you know, we in public health, and me and my colleagues, know that a movement really is what's necessary in this moment because of what we have seen in terms of the deep inequities that this pandemic has exposed. And so, before the pandemic was even an issue, the Poor People's Campaign had announced on June 20th 2020 that there would be this massive March on Washington. And then the pandemic hit, and so they just, instead of canceling it, decided to transform it into a digital gathering. And so that is what is going to be happening. So the broadcast of the gathering will be on June 20th from 10:00 AM to 12:30 PM, and there is going to be a rebroadcast of it at 6:00 PM on June 20th. If you want to find out more information about it, you can go to June2020.org. Again, that is June2020.org. And this is a gathering of over 150 national organizations, grassroots groups from over 45 states. And what I have always admired about the Poor People's Campaign, it is a campaign that lifts up the voices of directly impacted leaders. Right? And so this movement is built by grassroots folks on the ground, directly impacted by the interlocking injustices of racism, of poverty, of ecological devastation, and the war economy. We'll also have some really powerful guests, like former president— Vice President Al Gore, actor Alexander— Erika Alexander, and as well as Danny Glover, Jane Fonda, and so many more, who are really there to just lift up these voices, lift up these stories, those who are being impacted by these issues long before the COVID-19 pandemic, and folks who are now in the midst of it, not only feeling the pain of it, but also really coming together and building power in this moment to say to this country, we have to imagine a way forward that's much better. So we're excited. Again, if you want to find out more information, go to June2020.org. Again, that's June2020.org. Really excited about what's going to happen and what it's actually going to birth so that we can continue to build momentum, to build power in this moment and beyond.

And your father, is it Dr. Reverend William Barber? Is it Reverend William Barber? Is it Bishop William Barber? Or is it all of those above that I just said?

It is all of those, but Reverend Dr.— he usually goes by Bishop Barber, Reverend Dr. William Barber, as well as his co-lead, Reverend Dr. Liz Theoharis, are spearheading this work. And they will be also speaking on this day as well. But again, it is going to be just such a powerful and necessary, especially given what we have lived through in these last few months, it is a necessary, I think, balm, if you will, for the moment that we are living in.

And, you know, if you're listening, you just joined us, Dr. Sherelle Barber is known internationally for her work as a social epidemiologist and civil rights advocate. She is a Harvard social epidemiologist at Drexel, and she was— has been quoted in the New York Times. I mean, she is a real superstar. And her father— I'll call him Bishop so that I don't make any mistakes here— William Barber. I'm sure you've seen him frequently on MSNBC. Um, I know he was interviewed recently by Oprah, but he is carrying the mantle that Dr. Martin Luther King started with the Poor People's Campaign. Um, and I just want to tell you that he's carrying that mantle. He is a moral issue with him. And that is what is so meaningful to me, and I'm sure everyone, but as a person of faith, I've got to tell you, that part of being a moral imperative is so important. So you've got to go. You've got to go to that march. You've got to go. Once again, where do they go? What's the website again?

The website is June2020.org. Again, it's a virtual— it's a virtual march, a virtual gathering in lieu of the march in Washington that was planned. But again, that's June2020.org, and you just don't want to miss it. It's going to be a really powerful day. I'm really excited about it.

You want to make a change, you got to get involved. It's not enough to talk about it. Not enough to talk about it. Well, I must tell you, Dr. Sherelle Barber, that I did not know what a social epidemiologist was until I met you. So, what if first you explained that to our listeners around the world and then why you decided to pursue that career?

Sure, sure, Joyce. And what I'll say is most people didn't know what a social epidemiologist was before this pandemic, but What we know is that this pandemic has exposed so much. So, just to give you just a basic definition or how I describe myself, it's someone— it's an epidemiologist, so I look at health in populations. But what I'm really concerned about are the social, the economic, the political drivers, what we sometimes call the root causes of health and health inequalities in populations. And I'm particularly interested in how this plays out Blacks in the United States, but also have worked in the context of Brazil. And for me, it made sense because as a young girl, I, you know, wanted— had always wanted to go to medical school, mostly because I had an interest in health and an interest in understanding kind of why people got sick. But in undergrad, actually about 15 years ago, when I was an undergraduate student, at Bennett College, was introduced to the field of public health. And in a summer program at Harvard, was introduced to this idea that you can link some of the social factors, you know, the broad social factors such as discrimination and racism, and then link that to data on health and look at patterns of disease based on these kind of social and structural drivers. And that fascinated me because it allowed me allowed me to then bridge my love for medicine, for health, for well-being with my passion for social justice, right? And so it was this nice bridge. Public health and social epidemiology became this nice bridge between the two. And then thinking about, oftentimes we think about health only in the context of the healthcare system, but I think about health and my colleagues think about health in broader society. And then what did— and so then the next step is, so then what do you do to change health. It's not just what happens in a doctor's visit. It's not what happens within the healthcare system. It's really all of these structures, these structural factors, these systems of racism, of poverty that really are the most important drivers of health. And if you're going to change outcomes, particularly for Blacks, you've got to change those structures. And so, you know, that's kind of how I got involved. We've always been involved in it, you know, and now the world knows why this is so important because what we're seeing in this pandemic is it is exposing all of the inequities from racism to poverty. These are the things that are driving higher rates in certain communities, and these are the things that we must address if we're going to actually improve outcomes with this pandemic and beyond this pandemic.

Yes, it's amazing how This made it so clear, isn't it?

Right.

I mean, it really—

yes.

Well, I want to talk about, uh, COVID-19 for a moment. Um, I, I never forget what you said on the phone when I said, well, what are you thinking about how people are reacting about all of this? And you said that it's like being in the Twilight Zone. Which isn't that the truth? It is like being in the Twilight Zone. Um, but what is your opinion? What is your opinion of the status of COVID right now? Like, do you believe, um, some states are reopening too early? Do you believe there are handcuffs on scientists and social advocates like you to really, you know, speak up? What do you think?

Yeah, so that, you know, this pandemic, it's It's been like a Twilight Zone. It's been really unbelievable. And this is not just coming from me. This is coming from colleagues in the field. This is coming from top experts in public health where we're looking at the response that this country had and really just shaking our heads because I've said this often, it's been reckless. It's been irresponsible. And the decisions being made have really circumvented science and our best kind of public health practices of what you do when you're dealing, one, with a pandemic, and one, with a pandemic where we know very little about. So COVID-19, the coronavirus, is new to all of us. We're learning as we go. And when you have something new that can impact so many people and be devastating for so many you know, you should handle it with care, and you should do everything you can in an aggressive way, again, based on science, based on best public health practice, in order to mitigate its spread in the population and really try to get it under control. And we just didn't do that. At the federal level, we did not have a coordinated national response. You know, early on, we were so get ramp-up testing and still are not in a place where we're testing at a level that is really high enough to really know where the disease is. We didn't protect the most marginalized communities, so we weren't— we didn't, you know, protect folks in prisons and detention centers, homeless folks that have no homes, you know, folks living in poverty, folks living in racially segregated communities in our inner cities. Across this country. We failed to protect— we failed to protect essential workers, right, who were deemed essential in this moment but were not given the necessary protections they needed to be safe, right? So, we didn't do all of those things. And it has led us to being at this moment, in this moment, the global epicenter with over 2 million cases, over 116,000 deaths. And it's not getting better. The cases overall are at a plateau, but they're not declining like other places around the world. So we see declines in places like Italy, in places like New Zealand, who really, you know, took aggressive action early on. And I've said this often, is that really this government is playing Russian roulette with the lives of its citizens, and more so even with the most marginalized. And so, you asked about reopening. You know, I— again, this is something that colleagues and experts around the country have said. We really did reopen too quickly. And that, again, is because we paid more attention to the profit as opposed to people. And we really have been just in general more focused on the economy as opposed to the health and the lives of people. And that's just really, really unfortunate that in the midst a of pandemic, we did not put together the most coordinated and responsible response to this virus.

And follow people like you or Dr. Fauci or all these scientists and public health experts that said, okay, when you go out, wear a mask, social distance. You know what I mean? Wear a mask, social distance, but we need examples. We need, we need, we need from the top, we need examples because everyone is getting, you know, there was an article in the Washington Post, I think it was today, and this scientist said, you know how people will say, I'm sorry, but I'm tired, I wanna go out, I'm tired of this. And he said, well, guess what? The coronavirus doesn't care that you're tired.

Right, exactly. And that's what's been really frustrating because we are at a point— and I want to put that in context too, Joyce Bender, because here's the thing. We went into lockdown or quarantine. The stay-at-home orders were kind of put in place in March. A lot of folks are saying— and again, public health leaders leading public health experts, we really wasted the time between March and now, because between March and now, what should have happened was we should have ramped up our testing. We should have put in place the contact tracing that we need that's necessary to really know where the virus is and warn people that they may be exposed and then, you know, get them to self-quarantine for 14 days. We should have made sure, again, our most marginalized populations had everything that they need, the personal protective equipment, places to safely isolate, all of those things, the income protections, right? So, you know, with regard to the economics, all of the bills that passed really favored corporations. They didn't favor everyday people. So, in that 3-month window from March to now, we didn't do everything we should have done in order to prepare for reopening. Now folks are tired, but the virus hasn't gone anywhere. It's still around, and it's going to be around. And what we have probably done is made it so that we're going to have to go— states are going to have to return back to kind of— to close, shutting down. And folks aren't going to want to do that. But again, it's because we didn't have the coordinated response at the federal level that then trickled down to the states, trickled down to local community to be able to really nip this thing in the bud, make that initial sacrifice at the very beginning so that we wouldn't be in a place where we are right now. And that's the frustrating part, because we knew what to do and we didn't. We circumvented science. We didn't listen to the experts. You know, we didn't use the best available data, and it's going to— it is actually going to cost us in the long run.

Well, you know, I live with epilepsy, and if I had to go to, uh, you know, a neurologist who said to me, Joyce, this is what you should do, or the mayor of this area saying, hey, this is what you should do, who would I listen to? Who would we want to listen to if we're getting operated on? When you want to listen to the scientists, the experts, So, um, right, it's too bad, as you said, because too bad— I mean, it's lives. Yeah, what is worse than people dying? I mean, it is lives. Um, yeah, well, that brings me to the, uh, African-American or Black community. I mean, I don't know how you would not know by seeing, there's got to be a reason. I have your quote, I'm going to use your quote. It's not biological, it's really these existing structural inequalities that are going to shape the racial inequalities in this pandemic, as you were quoted in the New York Times as saying. Would you explain that to our listeners, what you meant?

Yeah. So, you know, I study this. I study, you know, I study racial inequalities in health. I've been doing so for some time now. And unfortunately, or unfortunately, me and many of my colleagues predicted even before data began to emerge on racial inequalities in COVID-19, we predicted that because we live in a society that's steeped in structural racism, which is rooted in our legacy of enslavement, the enslavement of African peoples, the genocide of Native American peoples, et cetera, and then that has trickled into all of the systems from housing to criminal justice to healthcare, et cetera. We knew that this pandemic was going to have a disproportionate impact because of that history, because of what we know about other diseases and Blacks having higher rates of death with just about every leading cause of death in this country, and that the pandemic would be no different. Unfortunately, our predictions were correct, and what we saw into April, early April, was these striking, striking racial inequalities that emerged for Blacks. Now we're at about 2.3— Blacks are 2.3 times as likely to die from COVID-19 compared to whites. There have been over 20,000 deaths among Blacks, and that rate is again much, much higher or than all other groups in this country. And again, it is those systems and those structures of racism. I will give you an example. Health care access. We know that Blacks often live in communities that do not have access to adequate health care, quality health care. Early on in this pandemic, there was a lack of access to testing where Blacks, you know, could not access the testing needed to even know that they had the disease, right? Here in Philadelphia, we saw those inequalities play out, and we saw that even though it showed— the data showed that Blacks had higher rates of COVID-19, the testing was being done more in predominantly white communities, right? So, there was this mismatch between the need and the resources being given to Black communities. We also know that within For example, a place like Philadelphia, which is hyper-segregated, which has and has been for some time, there are structural factors within neighborhood environments. For example, housing conditions, right? You know, it's a luxury for people to be able to stay at home or work from home. But, you know, some folks weren't able to do that because they were employed in essential jobs, such as service workers. They weren't being protected in those essential jobs. Again, not given personal protective equipment, not being given adequate paid sick leave or hazard pay, so they're being forced to work, right? And we know that these jobs are disproportionately Black and brown. They then return to their homes and their communities and then put not only themselves at increased risk, but their families and communities. So, if you understand it in that way, it's this vicious cycle, right, of exposure potential exposure to the virus, transmission within communities, all driven by these structural factors. And the reason it's important to frame it in that way is because early on folks began to blame Black people for the higher rates, right, or the higher death rates from COVID-19, saying, "Oh, you need to exercise more," you know, because of the underlying chronic conditions that make folks more susceptible. Or, "Oh, you're not wearing your mask," you're not washing your hands. But it was just like, how can you, you know, flip this, this massive, you know, you have this big pandemic, all these structural factors, and what we do is begin to blame Blacks for the higher rates as opposed to looking at these broader issues. And so that's really what I meant by that is that we have to think systematically and structurally about the factors that make you know, Blacks and other marginalized groups more susceptible to this pandemic.

Yeah, or like if you're in poverty, uh, not having access to transportation, you know, to get to the doctor, because even on a bus it costs money. No matter what you're doing, it costs money. And, you know, you could probably— I know, I heard this, uh, oh well, they just have worst health habits. And when I heard that, I thought, yeah, it's called poverty.

Right, exactly. And, you know, and again, that's exactly what I study. So, one of the studies I've been involved in, actually since 2012 or so, is the Jackson Heart Study. And the Jackson Heart Study is a study that's based in Jackson, Mississippi, and it's really been designed to look at cardiovascular heart disease in a cohort of about 5,000 African Americans. But even in that cohort, we find that it's the social and structural factors that really drive higher rates of heart disease, stroke. And I've done a number of studies looking at neighborhood environments, so where people live, having access to healthy foods, et cetera, the stressors that they experience in those environments, right? So, we see that individuals who have higher levels of stressors, that patterns also by where people live. Socioeconomic position, as you mentioned. All of these, again, are what we call the social determinants of health or the structural determinants of health that really lead to the poor health outcomes. So, if we ignore that, we ignore these structures and the empirical evidence that's there, and it has been there, then we're really missing the point when we're trying to understand what's causing the higher rates of exposure, the higher rates of transmission, And then the higher likelihood of death for Black folks in this country.

Yeah, it's so funny. Well, it's not funny, it's horrifying. But when you were talking about access to food, I mean healthy food, and remember you said this is all about profit with so many things. I'll bet you don't see a lot of Whole Foods close to these poverty areas.

Right, exactly, exactly. And it's just— I mean, and there— and, you know, some folks have called this food apartheid in our communities, where literally the ability to access grocery stores or even just other forms of— other outlets for healthy food is just dismal in so many of our communities. And, again, this isn't just a matter of opinion. This has been documented. You know, we've seen this in study after study after study. And we know that these are the factors that really lead to the poor health conditions in our communities.

Communities. Yeah, no, I, I know that you're right. And when you were saying before, when we were saying about how this pandemic unearthed things, you know, I mentioned to you that day that people with disabilities have the highest unemployment of any group, and many of those people that, that die are, by the way, people of color. With disabilities. I always say that's double jeopardy, and if you're a female, it's triple jeopardy. But we saw these terrible things happening. Like, we had the Office of Civil Rights— we had to have early on a lawsuit in Alabama because they were pretty much saying, all right, look, give this ventilator to the person that you think would live. Well, guess what? That wasn't people with disabilities. And all of a sudden I thought, you know what, how terrible. That really, that, that really just shows me how it is, how you think about us, you know. Um, I mean, how you think about people with disabilities. And just as you said about racism, I believe that a lot of this is also— I mean, when it's people with disabilities, I, I believe it's ableism. I believe it's You don't count. You're inferior. What do you think? Do you think that's right?

Yeah, I think it's all of those things, right, Joyce? It's like these intersections, these interlocking isms that we have in this country, whether it is ableism or racism or even those who live in poverty or who are impoverished. This country, this society decides that those lives are more disposable than others, that they don't matter. They do not count. That is so interesting. Excuse my dog Phoenix in the background.

This is all part of being from home, no matter what.

Yes. I think he is aching right now. But again, ableism. He is agreeing. But ableism, like you said, that disability, that because you have some physical disability, is really beyond your control, then somehow you're less than, you're inferior too, right? Or people who are Black or people who are Black women, somehow your life matters much less. And the fact that we can encode that or ingrain that in our medical decisions, right? So it's like, well, how healthy is this person? Is this person likely to live? And if you make your decision of whether or not to get a ventilator, you're literally kind of codifying these ways in which we've discriminated against folks, right? Based on ability, based on race, based on so many other factors.

Remember, you don't look like me.

Mm-hmm.

So people with disabilities, you don't look like me. And then if you have an invisible disability, that still doesn't matter because you still get categorized just as people, uh, in the Black and brown communities have been. And well, that's why we all have to work together and hopefully, uh, you know, see that change. So, um, I have a question I have to ask you because I so admire him. Uh, what's it like to grow up with with Bishop William Barber?

Oh my goodness, what's it like? Well, you definitely have to use your gifts. And one of the things— and what I mean by that is we were taught both by our mother, Rebecca Barber, and Bishop Barber that all of us are born for a reason with a purpose. And we have actually a responsibility to use that those, the talents we have been given, the platforms we have been given, in service and with, in service to others, in service to justice, and to do this work not in a way that we are, you know, we look down on other folks, but we really are joining ourselves with, you know, those who are directly impacted by these issues. And so, you know, it was amazing, it is an amazing experience to have lived and grown up and So watch, really. You know, I so admire the ways in which my father is able to weave his deeply— deep Christian values that are rooted in liberation theology, rooted in the radical kind of tradition of Christianity, with his strong sense for social justice and his— really, his passion for people. You know, that's what I admire. As, as, as quote unquote high up, or the higher up he gets, he never loses that passion for people and the care for people. You know, before he was on this national platform, you know, he was a pastor, and, and that pastoral care really does shine through in his leadership and the things that he does, um, and how he taught us to be and show up in the world as well, you know. Um, and so it's— I mean, it was remarkable, you know, my myself and my siblings and I, you know, really are just so fortunate to have him as our father. And again, you know, again, my mother also has been instrumental in helping us to use our gifts, right? God's given us gifts to use in service to the larger humanity. And it's been powerful. And I've learned, you know, just so much by watching the way he is, the way he's leading, even in this moment. Because I think it's so important that voices like my father's are there to call us together in a time where everything's trying to rip us apart. But he recognizes, and that is so important for us in this moment, to be moving forward together to really be tackling these issues in an intimate way that looks at racism and poverty and ecological devastation. And I learned so much from Joyce Bender. Him, and it's just— and I still, I guess I still learn, even as an adult, still learn so much from his work.

Doesn't he have a new book out?

He has so many, I can't keep count. There is one that really, that did recently come out, and I'm not sure the title of it, but it did recently come out talking about some of his new work.

The Restoration of Justice or something like that? He has one. I think that's it. I could be wrong. I know one came out. He has so many books. That's it. Just go to, uh, William Barber and you'll have a plethora of choices. But you know, I really do admire him, and I was on this first call with him. I could barely speak because I was such awe of having him. And now I also have you. What could be better than that?

Oh man, it's, it's again, we're just appreciative of this, this space.

All right, let me tell you, um, I have to talk about this. You were talking about what has happened, uh, recently, and, and yes, your father was put in the forefront, but first we have this absolutely heinous murder of George Floyd that was just You know, I said to someone, because of when I grew up, you know, I grew up in the '60s, and if you would move the car, the police car, back and put white cloaks on those policemen, it would just look like a picture of the Klan. I mean, it would just look like one of those pictures. I mean, it was so horrifying. And then what happens Now we have this, uh, death, this murder in Atlanta, which I can't imagine why someone would go from being in their car, they've had too much to drink, to shot in the back. I mean, yeah, you know, all of this that's happening, and I, I wanted your, uh, opinion on this because, um A, this has been going on since, uh, uh, slavery, this racism. Yeah, it's obviously not going away, and it's here. What, what has to happen, in your opinion? You know, what has to happen to see this change?

Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's been a hard— I'll just say, I just want to step back and just reflect a little bit, if you don't mind.

Oh no, please.

It's just been really hard. Yeah, you know, it's George Floyd. It's this new case in Atlanta. And sometimes I turn away from the news of it all because it's just so much. But it's Breonna Taylor, it's Aubrey, you know, it's Ahmaud Arbery. It is so many. Another young woman who was in the Black Lives Matter movement in Florida, a 19-year-old girl that was, you know, found murdered. And it is just— it is so many emotions. It is heartbreaking. It is infuriating. It is— it is just so much in this moment is what I will say initially. And in the midst of a pandemic, right, where we literally are seeing kind of the levels of death among the— in Black communities. So coupling those things together has just been really overwhelming for so many of us, many of my colleagues. I just want to mention an article that colleagues from the University of Minnesota, the lead author on this is Dr. Rachel Hardiman. And she and colleagues wrote something in the New England Journal of Medicine called Stolen Breaths. Stolen Breaths. I would encourage you all to read that because it really just documents— because she was— she's from Minneapolis. She knows that same street corner that it happened on. She studies the link between racism and health outcomes. And so, again, I know for her, having grown up in that community, it was just really, really devastating. And so, you ask me, what do we do? And there's a part of it is, I don't know at this point, right? Like you said, this viciousness, this violence has been with us since— with the inception of this country. The birth of this country was built on violence, the genocide of Native American peoples at the very beginning, then the enslavement of African peoples and the millions that were lost in the Atlantic slave trade, the millions that have— and the thousands that have been lost were lost to lynching, and now police brutality is just taking the lives of so many of our people. And it's hard because you wonder whether or not Black Lives Matter, right? You wonder whether or not there's just this disregard for Black life that is, you know, that we can't overcome. And so it's been hard to watch. It's been hard to bear witness to. And, you know, I think a couple of things are necessary. One, there's got to be a collective truth-telling, right? The first step, I think, because so many— too many people, I think, are shocked that these things happen, when we know this happens all the time. It's just not filmed, right? So, right now, what's— it's not necessarily that it's more of it's happening than that it's now being recorded and posted on social media and being viewed by thousands of folks and millions of folks around the world. Right? And so I think that is one thing, is that as a country, collectively, we have to do some real truth-telling. Because unless you tell the truth about the violence that has already— that has predated this current, you know, this current George Floyd lynching, right, unless you are truthful about the policy violence, the literal deaths that have been caused at the hands of racial terror, you know, and white supremacy, unless you are truthful about all of that, then we will not move forward. So, there is a truth-telling that must be— must happen. And so, we have to name racism as fundamental to many of the problems that plague Black communities. We have to name it, and then we have to be willing to address it. The other thing— and I think this is a moment we're actually seeing it— is there must be a collective outcry that this is not OK. And that's what the protests really were. You had Black individuals, but you also had allies out on the street, still out on the street, decrying this level of violence and viciousness against Black folks. And really, it is— my father has said in the last few weeks, it's this gasp. Of For Air saying, you know, we've got to be outraged and we need to show the world that anger, show the world that rage, show the world that this society is wounding us in so many areas. And I think that's another way. So the protest, the protest, even in the midst of the pandemic, you know, is necessary to show the world how painful this is and how we need to move forward. I do think that the Poor People's Campaign and what it attempts to do, where it addresses the interlocking systems of poverty, of racism, of ecological devastation, of the war economy, all of these things together, and puts forth policy solutions, is one of the ways forward to really transform this society, right? And it brings— together those most directly impacted as the leaders of the movement. And so, again, the collective truth-telling, the collective rage, and then the collective organizing and galvanizing and really moving, using this moment of grief, of despair, of rage, channeling that into a movement that really moves this country, this society, to be better than what it is And that's the only way things have happened. Happened with the civil rights movement. It happened, you know, in so many parts of our history. It has been movement, social movement, people from the grassroots up saying enough is enough to really move our country forward in a way that actually values the lives of everybody in our society. And that's what we need. That's why, as a social epidemiologist, I had to join with the movement because that was— I felt like that's the only way forward. And especially now with all these killings, it really, for me, is the only way forward for us in this moment.

Yeah, because that's another one. Ahmaud Arbery, that too looked like back in that terrible time when the Klan would be out driving around.

Right.

Right. I mean, that's exactly what that— I mean, that was unbelievable. That was painful to watch. But it was— it was like, I'm tracking down this Black man. I'm going to find a Black man. I'm going to kill him. I mean, that's what it was like. And you know what? Listen, you know, love your neighbor as yourself. Without no edits. Not love your neighbor as yourself if you're white, right?

Right, right, right.

Love your neighbor as yourself if you're rich, you know. Love your neighbor as yourself if you don't speak Spanish. I mean, I could keep going on and on, but, you know, I say this to, uh, you know, my fellow Christians Racism is a sin.

It is a sin. It's the original sin. It's the original sin of this nation. It is. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Well, you know, a couple last questions before we go. One, for all of us, what advice do you have right now for people dealing with COVID I mean, what's your opinion of what people should be doing?

Yeah, no, so there's a couple of things. And I think about these on kind of what we personally have to do and then also what we collectively have to do. So, personally, again, the pandemic is not over, as much as popular belief is such that we're kind of out there now, we're thinking, oh, because we set a date for X state to reopen or to gradually reopen, somehow the pandemic has left us. But that's just And so, the pandemic is still here. And so, as individuals, as families, just continuing to do the things to keep us well, keep yourselves well, keep yourself safe. And continuing the things that we— I've seen so many beautiful acts of kindness and love and compassion within communities, with the mutual aid networks, et cetera. Those things have to continue. Because, again, we're still in this pandemic and we still— so, Again, social distancing, staying at home as much as possible, wearing your mask, wearing things that protect you and protect others, because again, it's not just about us. So, all those things we still need to do as individuals. However, we know that that's not enough, and we still need to be challenging at the local level, at the state level, at the national level for there to be the kind of response that's necessary to get us all through this, you know, in a better place, right? And so, continuing to pressure Congress, we need to continue to be advocating for a bill, the next bill that comes through, that it protects the most marginalized communities. We still haven't done right by homeless folks. We still haven't done right by those who are imprisoned and in detention centers. We still haven't done right by the poor, those in racially segregated communities, in rural areas. I was on a phone call last night with folks in the Mississippi Delta. There's still issues that they're facing—lack of testing, lack of resources. Those things need to be addressed, and we need to be putting the pressure on our elected officials to do what they need to do. If you can give trillions of dollars to corporations and to banks, you can give the money necessary to people, to the workers, to those who are in poverty, so that they can get through this pandemic, as well. It is a shame, Joyce Bender. And I cannot—I get so livid every time I think about it, that we've literally put profit puts before people. And so, you know, this is a moment that we need to continue to demand that this government, at every level, does right by the most marginalized. So that's another thing. So we can't— you know, we can't let up. Like, the pandemic is still here. We can't let up. And there's so many decisions that are going to have to be made moving forward, as, again, we continue to see, in some states, cases beginning to surge again, right? And that kind of thing. On a personal level, protect yourself as much as possible. Look out for those in your communities that need to be looked out for. But collectively, we still need to be pressuring our elected officials and those in power to do everything that they can to mitigate the impact this pandemic is having.

Well, you know, I wrote a blog, Black Lives Matter and Black Disabled Lives Matter. And at the very end, I said, You do have one thing that's very powerful. You can vote. Yeah, you can vote.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

You know what? And I tell people, if you have to get people, you know, in a car and go pick up people, you know, once again, what did you just say about racial inequality, voter suppression, people not having access? Same thing happens to people with disability. You go to vote and it's not accessible. You're in a wheelchair and you have to get up and see— these are things that you really need that to get involved with that political power to, to, to really make a difference. I mean, you really do.

So, um, yeah, you know, absolutely. Yeah, no, what I'll say to that too is like what we're seeing is that health is political. And again, as a social epidemiologist, I always knew that. People didn't understand why, like, why are you talking about politics and health? I'm like, because they're inextricably linked. And so we have to be engaged in the political process. We are seeing literally in this pandemic that who we vote in office is literally a matter of life and death. Who we vote into office, not just at the top, at the governor's level, at the legislative level, U.S. Congress, Senate, who we vote, who we put into power, who we give a voice to in these bodies, in these institutions, is literally a matter of life and death. And so, voting— and so many of my ancestors, folks like Fannie Lou Hamer and Ella Baker and all these folks, they put their lives on the line. For the right to vote. And we need to be exercising that right in this election. We need to be— and again, at the level of the president, in our U.S. Senate, in our House of Representatives, our state governors, our legislatures within the context of states, because these are the places where decisions get made that can literally impact who lives and who dies. And so, it's so important that we take the energy from these protests that we participate in the electoral process and continue to organize even when that's over, as well. So, it can't be an either/or. It has to be a both/and in this moment. And we so desperately need to get this president out of office. And I'll say that on the record all day, because he has literally caused so much death and so much despair in this country.

Well, hey, we know one thing: it's not a hoax. The pandemic is not a hoax. And right, exactly. Yeah, well, I'll just say this: I bet your father doesn't hold the Bible upside down. Not at all.

And he actually reads it as well, knows what's in it.

He reads it. It's not a Bible, it's his Bible. Yes, well, that's why I'm— you know what, Justin Dart, who was the general behind, you know, getting everyone together with the ADA— and Yoshiko, I know you're listening, uh, hello to you also. Uh, Justin used to say, vote as if your life depends upon it. Exactly. Because it does. And in this case, that, that, that quote of his, "Vote as if your life depends upon it because it does," is so true right now, isn't it?

It's so true.

It is so true. Well, just, um, I, I wanted to ask you— I already think I know the answer. I was going to ask you though, who is your role model? But maybe I don't know.

Who is your role model? Yeah, I saw that question and I was going to give some thoughts. So I am going to, you know, obviously my father is a role model of mine. But, you know, I am the product of a Black women's college, Bennett College in Greensboro, North Carolina. And so many of my, what I say role models, but what I coined, or what we were told to call them, was sheroes. My sheroes. And many of those sheroes are ancestors. So there are folks like Fannie Lou Hamer, Ella Baker, Ida B. Wells, because they chose to speak truth even when it was difficult. And I draw strength from those kind of— kinds of examples of strong Black women who dare to speak truth to power even when it's dangerous, but because they know their lives and the lives of their communities depend on it. I'm also inspired by folks internationally, and one person in particular is Afro-Brazilian politician and human rights activist Marielle Franco, who was actually assassinated in 2018, a couple of hours, or about an hour or so, after I was able to meet her at an event in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. And her activism, again, as a Black queer woman, from the favelas of Rio, who stood and who spoke with marginalized communities and made sure that those issues that impacted Blacks, Black women, poor Black folks, the fact that in Brazil every 23 minutes a young Black person is killed, she spoke out against those issues and gave her life in some ways. And so she, too, is one of my, quote-unquote, heroes. She Rose, because she stood, she spoke truth to power, and her energy and her spirit still lives on in so many amazing Afro-Brazilian activists, Black Afro-Brazilian activists that I know. And then just this generation of young adults who are, I'm seeing, activated in this moment, who are daring to speak up, daring to speak truth to power, daring to, in this this moment, not let it pass, and without speaking, and without holding folks accountable. Those folks, those young folks, those young people are my heroes and sheroes. And so, absolutely, you know, and so, yeah, so that's a shorter, or a kind of long answer to your question. I have so many.

Well, that was a great— I am going to end with a quote But Dr. Cheryl Barber, we're going to have you back on again because this was too short of a time period, and everyone wants to hear you again. But we do end every show with a quote, and here it is, folks: "When religion is used to camouflage meanness, we know we have a heart problem in America," said Bishop William Barber. This is Joyce Bender. America's Voice, where disability matters, at voiceamerica.com. Make sure you go to that Poor People's Campaign march and get involved. Go to it, it's digital, this Saturday. And we will have Sherrell Barber on again. Talk to you next week.

Voice America would like to thank you for tuning in. Please join us next Tuesday at 11 AM Pacific time and 2 PM Eastern time for another installment of Disability Matters, right here on the Voice America Variety Channel. We are the leader in live internet talk radio. VoiceAmerica.com.