Progress in Employment of Tunisians with Disabilities

Welcome to Disability Matters with your host Joyce Bender. All comments, views, and opinions expressed on the show are solely those of the host, guest, and callers. Now the host of Disability Matters, here's Joyce Bender.

Hey everyone, welcome to the show, to all of our listeners in the United States and around the world. Richard Roberts, hello to you in Okinawa. Gang Young, hello to you in South Korea. And Venyamin in Kazakhstan. We work with the State Department. We love the State Department because they're working to advance quality of life with me for people with disabilities. I am so excited. Because today we have the U.S. Embassy from Tunisia. Is that awesome or what? On the show. You heard me right. Tunisia. And I got to tell you about Cheryl Harris, who, by the way, is originally from Pennsylvania and not far from where I live in Pennsylvania. I met her. I liked her immediately. She is such a kind person and she is so excited about this show and about spreading the news about disability in Tunisia. Cheryl, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much, Joyce Bender. It is such an honor to be here with you tonight. I'm thrilled to be able to talk with you about the U.S. Embassy's work and of course we have two very special guests with us this evening who will be able to share with us, um, so much about the situation of disability rights in Tunisia.

I know I am so excited to have Manal and Amine with us. So Cheryl, help me with the pronunciation of Manal's last name.

So Manel and I have actually practiced together.

So Manel, tell me if I am going to hit the high note on this.

Manel Barghui. Barghui. Okay, okay. It's Barghui, yes.

Okay, and Ameen, is your last name pronounced Dree-dee?

Yeah. Amin Dridi.

Oh, I got one right. Okay, that's amazing. Well, we have Manel, who is an English and sign language teacher, and Amin, who is the special education teacher for children with Down syndrome. So Cheryl, you are the cultural affairs officer. Um, I'm going to ask each of you to tell us a little bit about yourself, what you're doing right now, what your role is. So, we'll start with you, Cheryl.

Great.

Absolutely. So, as you mentioned, I am a Cultural Affairs Officer in the U.S. Embassy. And one of my favorite parts of this job is being able to connect with people like Manal and Naeem who are working to advance such critical issues. And our office work to do that in a variety of ways. Um, we, um, host various, uh, programs and discussions, um, such as the one, Joyce Bender, that you, um, participated in last year, um, at the American Center. It was a virtual program, um, where we bring together Tunisians and Americans and talk about issues of interest, um, as well as through exchange programs. Um, so the U.S. Embassy offers a variety of different exchange programs for Tunisians. We offer more than 20 programs, um, that can provide people with professional connections, with various academic programs, and build ties between the United States and Tunisia. And this isn't unique to Tunisia. The Department of State does this in countries around the world as a way of building bridges and furthering all of our goals together. And as you know, the State Department is very committed to advancing human rights issues, and that includes disability rights. And the U.S. Embassy works on a variety of different projects to do that, including through nongovernmental partners in order to increase access to education and employment. And we actually have a call for proposals that will go out soon that will include touching on disability rights. So we're very eager to continue this work, and especially with such good partners like Manal and Amin and many other people who are working on these issues.

Oh, that's wonderful. Well, I'm so proud of you and what you do, Cheryl. Manal, how about you? What do you do, Manal?

Okay, so let me introduce you myself. My name is Manal Bagheri. I'm a teacher of English and the first teacher of English who teaches English to deaf and hard of hearing people in Tunisia through sign Language, more precisely Tunisian Sign Language. I'm so excited and so happy to be among you today to talk about what I'm doing and what I do and what I did before. So actually, I'm a teacher of English for hearing people, but because of the love of deaf community and many things that I see problems that they are suffering from in my country. So I decided to teach English to deaf and hard of hearing people. So this is why I participated in a professional fellows program, which is a program provided by the U.S. Embassy here in Tunisia, where I had the chance to travel to the United States to work with Deaf people in the U.S. And I visited Gallaudet University, the National Association of the Deaf, and I was very impressed by the work that is done there, and I learned a lot from their experience. And when I came back to Tunisia, I decided to write the— to work on my project and write the first book that is design for deaf people because here in Tunisia we don't have curriculum. We don't have pedagogy of how to teach deaf people any foreign language. So it was the first time that happened and I succeeded in that even when the American delegation came to Tunisia to observe, to evaluate the work. It was really a success. Even the deaf community were— I mean, was very impressed by the book because it is the first time that they see something like that and it is designed for them more precisely. I developed up until now 4 books because I defend quality education, not only Deaf, not only, I mean, writing only a book. I want it to be quality education, equal education. Like the hearing community, the Deaf community must have their own books in all the levels, not only one level. So up until now, I wrote 4 levels, and I'm working on the other levels. I developed also an application called Let's Learning English Through Signs. It's in Android, and you can find it in Apple— it's not Apple Store, but Play Store. So it is for free, and it's— I'm still developing the app because it needs a lot of work for all the levels. This becomes a mission, not only a project. It didn't start as a project. It started as something that touched me, and I wanted to find a solution for the community, so then it becomes a mission. So this is a small introduction of what I do and what I did and what I'm going to do in the future.

Wow, that's very good, and good for you. I know Gallaudet as well, and I just think that is awesome what you're, what you're doing. How about you, Amin? Tell us about you.

Yeah, so I would like first of all to thank you, Joyce Bender, for this invitation. It's a big pleasure to be with you today. I would like also to thank the U.S. Embassy here in Tunis for giving us, me and my this big chance to be on this radio show. I also would like to say hi, as-salamu alaykum in our Tunisian dialect, to all our dear listeners. So my name is Mohamed Amin El Djidi. I present myself as a Tunisian researcher in the field of special education here in Tunisia, in addition to my profession as the manager of the Rainbow Association for the Education training and the integration of children with Down syndrome. So I started my career as a special educator in 2008 at the Tunisian Union for Helping Mentally Disabled Persons, where I provided special education for mentally disabled children with some cases of children with autism. In September 2011, I was named the manager of the Tunisian Union for Helping the Mentally Disabled People. I mean, in the same organization. So I was responsible of the pedagogical, administrative, and financial management of the structure. Then I moved in 2012 to work at the Rainbow Association. It was a new created association just created after the Tunisian Revolution. Within this organization, I am responsible of the educational management and the coordination with the technical team in addition to the administrative management of this organization. Meanwhile, in 2015, I had the chance to visit the U.S., like Manel, so in a professional fellowship program focusing on NGO development. So I was in Seattle, State of Washington. I got the chance to work there in Seattle at two hosting organizations, Washington Autism Alliance and Advocacy, and Autism and Seattle Autism Center, where I get the chance to navigate the advocacy system in Seattle that helps families of children with autism to access their insurance benefits and effective services in school and supportive community regardless of their personal financial situation. I got also the chance to navigate the health services even for children with autism through participating in class and meeting with many different specialties who work in the Seattle Autism Center. I have also— I get also the chance to travel to Germany and to navigate, to know more more about inclusive education for children with multiple disabilities during Germany through participating in mentorship program for Team Mofeds in 2017 at an inclusive school in Stuttgart. I am currently completing my studies my university studying, so I'm completing my master's degree at the High Institute for Special Education. Yeah, that's all about me, about MNGD.

Well, yeah, congratulations to both of you for the wonderful work you're doing. Cheryl, you know, for many listeners, not only in the United States but possibly around the world, People are not all familiar with Tunisia, the country of Tunisia. Could you give us just a little background about where you're located and the size and your estimation of the number of people with disabilities in the country?

Yeah, absolutely. I would be glad to do that along with, along with our fellow guests. Tunisia is, I have to say, a remarkable country. I feel very honored to be serving here. It is located in North Africa on the Mediterranean Sea, and it is a democracy. So perhaps some of the listeners aren't familiar with the revolution that occurred in Tunisia back in 2010. Since that time in the country, there have been many changes, and we at the U.S. Embassy are really proud to be working here in Tunisia with Tunisians together on a wide range of issues. And in terms of the particulars on the community here, on the deaf community, I'd love to ask Manel and Amine to contribute contribute to this, because we were talking about this prior to the program, and I would love to get their, their take on that for your listeners.

Absolutely.

Yeah. If I will start, I will tell you something that a little bit not very recent. Like, I have some statistics according According to 2014 national consensus, we have like 2.3% of Tunisia's population have a disability. Like 37% are children and 16% have auditory disabilities. But maybe Amin will talk more about the statistics. Being fixed or not fixed, we will see.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, good, I mean, the numbers given by BANER are the official numbers that we give here in Tunisia, but the problem is that it's not very much official because we are working in the field of disability and we know that is that many people today don't have a disability card here, we call it Tunisia. So still some many people refuse to have this card and they're basing on this fact that the government still cannot have the exact number because they are using the number of people who officially have this card disability card. So for example, as I said to you, Sheryne, in my last mail, in my organization, for example, we have about 43 children who are receiving the services of our organization, but around 5 of the children who are in our organization, in our association, don't have this card. Because people, because their parents still refuse to do this card for them. They are as if it is some kind of refusing the disability of their children. So they refuse to do this card. So, you know, and I think it is the same in so many other organizations. So, based on this fact, we cannot really have the exact number of people who have been, who are really disabled in Tunisia. So official numbers are like what Anam said, but the real number is much more than that, I think.

Yeah, I'm not surprised to hear that. I'm not surprised at all because many countries in the world, there is shame associated with having a disability or children with disabilities. And Manel, I'm curious to know what got you involved with the deaf community? You know, what, what, how did that happen?

Actually, yeah, when I was young, I studied with someone who is deaf, but I noticed when I was young, I was like 8 years old or 9, and I noticed there is a, like, misunderstanding between the teacher and the student, and he was always isolated in his classroom, no connection with us, with his friends, no connection with the teacher, and always crying. So it was like, what is the matter of this person? But I was like, kid, I couldn't even understand. And even in my neighborhood, there are some hard of hearing people and they speak with their hands, and I was just a kid, I couldn't understand. So also I saw on TV like interpretation, but I also, I had a lot of questions when I was young about this language and why they do not communicate with us with their voices. So up until university, I discovered that I don't have— and I didn't see this child or this person again, and I don't see people like them again. I only see spoken language. I don't see sign language. So when I was studying my master's, I discovered that it's called sign language, and it is a language. It is a language. So because I was studying English, so we talked about American Sign Language, and we did research about American Sign Language. This is why even my master's degree, actually, I did a comparative syntactic analysis Analysis between American Sign Language and spoken English from Chomsky's generative approach, which was my master's thesis. But meanwhile, I was looking for Tunisian Sign Language to learn, to communicate with my neighbors, to communicate with people. Maybe they stop me and ask me. Maybe in the future I will have a student who is deaf, so I need to communicate. I won't do the same mistake that the teacher did in the past when I was So this affected me actually from childhood, but at the end I felt so happy when I learned the language. Now I have many deaf friends, and I maybe have my deaf friends are more than my hearing friends, which is— I feel like so proud of this achievement because being able to communicate with both is something It's something that makes me happy. Even when I was in the U.S., I was communicating with American deaf people and American hearing people, and I learned from both. I learned from both communities. They are really dedicated. They are serious. They— I worked with them. My supervisor in the U.S. was deaf as well, and I learned a lot from her. Even I learned how to sign thanks to YouTube videos that are about American Sign Language. So it's an accessible language. On the contrary, Tunisian Sign Language is still in progress. People here don't know. They don't even consider it as a language, unfortunately, up until now. And also, they really don't respect let us say, this community. Because if— what I discovered actually, we need to change, not them. They are not going to speak. They are not going to speak. We need to sign. We need to learn how to communicate with them. Otherwise they will be isolated as my friend in the past. So this is the most important thing that happened to my life, and I I found a solution that I need to learn the language. It's me who needs to do the thing.

You know what, Manel? You're like a disability rights leader. That is such a great statement you made. I can see we— they don't need to change, we do.

Wow.

How profound and true is that? Amin, how about you? What got you involved, Amin, working with Down syndrome and other intellectual disabilities?

Yeah, so I get involved to work with people with Down syndrome because I have already some previous experience with children with mental disability at the Tunisian Union for Helping Mental Disabled Persons. Autism. So I wanted to focus more about the special education programs given for this category of children because in my previous professional experience I was working with many categories of disability, developmental disability, autism. So I wanted to specialize, to get specialized in specific type of disability and not really go in all way. Also, the Rainbow Association where I work, I mean, it treats people with Down syndrome and is considered as a new organization. It's a new way, and I mean, there is a difference between the old organization, the old organization, the League of Word and Pen, newest one, I mean the organization that was created after the revolution. So in the Rainbow organization, I found a great possibility to get developed, to develop professionally because there is much more innovation and creation. So I believe we are the best in Tunisia in terms of what we are giving for our children with Down syndrome. In relation to what we give them as program to prepare them for school inclusion, also in terms of professional training in the field of pastry and making cakes and sweets that we are offering to some of our children at the Rainbow Association who are more than 16 years old. Yeah.

I have a question to ask you. I have a question. How are children with Down syndrome treated in Tunisia?

So thank you for your question.

In relation with how children with Down syndrome are treated in Tunisia, I believe that Tunisian treatment for special needs children generally and children with Down syndrome Dent Syndrome more specifically is getting more and more better due to the great effort made by many organizations to inform people about the Dent Syndrome and to invite them to be more tolerated, to accept the difference of this category of people. So, basing on my experience When we do, for example, some outside activities for our children, we notice that Tunisians are getting much more accepting of the difference of these children with Down syndrome. However, sometimes we still notice some negative treatment of parents, for example, taking away the children if one of our children, for example, getting in touch with a child. But we I believe that since the revolution there is an improvement in how people look, consider, and treat children with Down syndrome. So for example, and always based on my professional experience, we see that many companies or people are accepting the idea of hiring a Down syndrome person. So they are starting to believe that there is a place for a Down syndrome person in professional position, for example, and that this person with Down syndrome can do something. I mean, also many people and shops, for example, are now accepting to buy our pastry product made by our children. So here I would like to finish by the first idea that I said, The improvement in terms of how Tunisians treat children with Down syndrome is mainly due to the big effort done by the local communities here in Tunisia and the associations who are working with people and children with Down syndrome.

Yeah, well, that is very interesting, and I'm glad to hear there's progress being made. I'm especially happy to hear what you're doing, Amine. Man, Manal, I have to ask you the same question. You gave me a good idea, though, when you told me about the lack of communication. But how are deaf people viewed in Tunisia, you know, by people, able-bodied people or hearing people? How are they viewed, and do they ever get employment?

Actually, in our constitution, in terms of employment, I mean, and integration into the job market, companies are obliged to hire 1% disabled employees. This is in terms of, let's say, law. 1%, 2% of disabled employees to their companies. However, the Tunisian— in practice, I mean, the government, and when it comes to practice, the quota is rarely implemented. The low rate of integration into the job market is perhaps also a reflection of the relatively poor quality of education offered in specialized centers. So this is why they are not maybe accepted in those companies. If we will talk about hearing-deaf communication, I can say that it is not very commonly seen in the street or at at mainstream schools. However, we only see deaf-deaf communication. It's very rare. Sometimes I have even parents who are hearing and they don't know sign language. They don't communicate with their kids. They don't communicate with their children, which is really, really sad. The information is lost. Not well presented to the parents who are hearing, so this is why they don't know. And as Amin said, they are shameful and they don't accept this. I remember once I had a parent who asked me to let her speak. I don't have to sign. And I said, you need to understand, it's the truth. Your child is deaf. He cannot speak. So she was so angry. And although there is a language, I can communicate with the child. Unfortunately, this is— there is a misunderstanding between parents and kids. There is a misunderstanding between people, even citizens between themselves, even neighbors. However, let's say, if we compare before the revolution and after the revolution, the situation changed positively. But still, still the number is very serious. We need to learn the language. We need also to consider it as a language. There are some people just make gestures. They believe that it's not a language. It's all about gestures, which is disrespectful for me. And even for them, they don't even take the initiative to talk. To hearing people only. They have only deaf friends, deaf community. In the association here where I work, it's called AVST, Association Vos du Sourd de Tunisie. It's for deaf community. You only find deaf people there and some hearing people who are interested. As simple as that. In the street is very rare. And as I told you, even parents, there are many, a huge number of parents who lack communication with their children. But with companies, if we talk about employment, in terms of law, there is a law that obliges companies to hire 1% of disabled people in general. There is no specific disability. But when it comes to practice, we cannot find all the time deaf people because I can explain it by quality education, maybe sign language also, the lack of sign language. It is a really big problem, but the situation is getting better after the revolution and also after the COVID-19 because they were aware now that there is a community who needs their language and we need to transfer the information with sign language. So they saw the interpreters all the time interpreting all the news, etc. So this plays a huge role in the change in the mentality.

Positively. Yes. If you can't communicate, you can't work. You know what I mean? If people can't communicate, that's a shame about, about how the parents feel. Let me ask you this, Amin. Do you feel the same thing? Do you think parents are ashamed if they have a child with autism or Down syndrome?

Well, here it's not— first of all, absolutely any parents who wish and dream to have a safe and normal child, maybe at the first time they feel like ashamed, but by the time they are getting used to the situation of their children, the problem here is But many parents, so many parents don't find someone to guide them with the problem of their child. Once they found someone who guides them, who explains them, who advises them how to deal, how to educate their children, how to treat the children, for example, with autism, I mean, this can make the situation much more easier. But whenever they don't find someone to guide them, I think they will absolutely I mean, she is starting to feel, to have problem with the children. I mean, this will complicate the situation once they don't have someone to guide them. But whenever they found the good organization, the good establishment structure that can receive this child and then give them advice how to deal with the children, how to educate him in a good way, I mean, in many terms, I mean, in terms of language, of mental disability, of social skills. I mean, how to be a good— how to learn the necessary social skills. So in this condition, I think parents will not be much more ashamed. I'm basing on my experience. The first experience with the children I mean, there is a change between the first experience and the— I mean, and once the parents discover that their children can do something, that children can improve, I mean, that children can change, can learn something, here the experience, here the impression of the parents change. And we are here. Normally, are we the professional, whether special education or different other field, we are here to help those parents to change their representation, their bad representation, their negative representation about their children. They, they, we should, I mean, guide them to believe that their children can do something, that their children can be a good child, and they should just believe that Dikshush is just different and he is like that, but he still can do something. And here, I'm always basing on my experience, many parents, I mean, sometimes they believe and they don't believe. I show him a video, for example, of something done by his child. When he sees that video or the pictures I'm posting on Facebook. Yeah, he said, yeah, this is my children. I said, yes, this is your children, and he can do something whenever you guide them, whenever you hold on, I mean, you stand up for him. I mean, and yeah, and here I want also to add that there is some other kind of parents who are actually, I always, I mean, encouraging, they are From the beginning of experience, they are, you feel like, like, like, like, like, gifted. I mean, they are admiring their child. I mean, they do everything for their children. I mean, they show their children. They always speak about their children. They are not ashamed at any, they're not ashamed at all of their children. So they say, this is my children. He is different. I accept him. As he is and he does all things for him. But I always come back to the question of guiding parents through their experience with this kind of different child, whether with autism, Down syndrome, or deaf children. Yeah.

Well, Manel, if you had to give a message to our listeners throughout the world in reference to our discussion today, what would it be?

I think the only word that I can say is just accept differences. Accept differences. We should not judge others by their difference. Everyone has his or her own strength in this difference. We need to adapt ourselves to— according to this difference. So if everyone starts from his or herself developing his or her skills to help others, to improve the life of others from their angles, I think the world will be a better place, and every person will find the right place to live in. Because sometimes people, this minority is excluded. Sometimes people are, they feel that they are excluded from the community. If we know how to adapt ourselves to accept the other, I think that we won't have difficulties to live together, as simple as that.

Wow, such accept differences, so powerful. How about you, Amin? What message do you have to our listeners today?

Yeah, I mean, the same important idea is that we should accept and tolerate the difference. I mean, every one of us has some kind of disability. Even we who are normal, we consider ourselves normal, but in some way we are disabled. I mean, the disability is not necessarily clear and obvious. It can be unseen. I mean, so we should be empathetic and put ourselves in other situations to be able to understand their condition. I mean, it's really important to think about this. To think about others, how they feel, and to put ourselves in their position. For example, we can put ourselves in the position of a parent who has a child with autism. So if we try to do that, we will learn so many things and we will change so many things. So I have a message for people with disability and for any parents who have a child with disability, that nothing for you without you. I mean, nothing for people with disability or for their parents without them. I mean, it should start from them and go for them. So they should keep asking for their rights and they should not give up. I mean, yeah, maybe I would like to say that together we should continue to improve the condition and the opportunities for people with special needs, whether in Tunisia or in the whole world. We should stay just stronger and set goals in life because this can give meaning to our lives and we should make sure that it's never too late. We have just to start, I mean, and it will absolutely be fine. So together we can beat all the challenges. The problem that we can face.

That's right, I agree with you. So Cheryl, how about you? Before we end the show, what message do you have for our listeners, not only around the world but right in Tunisia?

Thank you so much, Joyce Bender, for this amazing opportunity, and I would say to get involved yourselves in your local communities, figure out ways that you can help, both big and small. Look around and see what's happening in your family, with people that you know, at your community center, in your school, at your workplace. And that we can all work together to implement changes. And as Manel and Ameen were talking about, to really accept differences, and not just accept differences, but to really champion and celebrate those differences that, that we all have. And I'd love to invite people to stay in touch with the U.S. Embassy as well, especially for listeners in Tunisia. Please stay in touch with us through our Facebook page. Reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you and, and work in partnership with you. So, um, so thanks very much for this great, great opportunity, and thanks very much.

It was so great having— yeah, it was so great having all of you on the show, um, and you'll be back on. Let me tell everyone I'm having them back on. So we end every show with a quote. Today, people with disabilities deserve the chance to build a life for themselves in the communities which they choose to live, said President Barack Obama. This is Joyce Bender, America's Voice, where disability matters, at voiceamerica.com. Talk to you next week.

Voice America would like to thank you for tuning in. Please join us next Join us next Tuesday at 11 AM Pacific time and 2 PM Eastern time for another installment of Disability Matters, right here on the Voice America Variety Channel. We are the leader in live internet talk radio. VoiceAmerica.com.