Roberts/Braga: Mission of Egalite in South Brazil

Welcome to Disability Matters with your host Joyce Bender. All comments, views, and opinions expressed on the show are solely those of the host, guest, and callers. Now the host of Disability Matters, here's Joyce Bender.

Hi everyone, welcome to this very special show to all of you in the United States and around the world. A world like where we have listeners. Brazil, France, Canada, Australia, South Korea, Ireland, Norway, UK, Russia, Germany, South Africa, Netherlands, Sweden, Spain, Denmark. Thank you all for following the show. And of course, to all of you in the United States. Now, my great friend Richard Roberts should be joining us today. I want to remind you, he's my close friend that works for the State Department, and he's in Brazil. Gangyang, hello to you in South Korea. Cheryl Harris at the State Department, and Venyamin in Kazakhstan, hello to all of you. I'm so excited about the show today. Yoshiko Dart, special shout out to you, Yoshiko. You're going to love this show as much as you love the show from Japan. And thank you, HiMark, my sponsor. I wouldn't be able to do this show without you. Well, when I said it's a very special show, it is from Brazil. I love it. We have one from Tunisia, one from Japan, and now we have one from Brazil with this young man I met, Guillermo Braga, who is the CEO and founder. Guillermo, is it pronounced Eagle Light? How's it pronounced?

Uh, hello Joyce, thank you so much for having me. I'm also very excited to be here on your show. Uh, so, uh, our name was was taught in French, so it would be égalité, that means equality.

Okay, I'm going to go with the employment of people with disabilities for right now. This organization he founded, because I know I will not pronounce that French name correctly, and he is, in my opinion, a real civil rights leader. For people with disabilities. So, Yeremay, let's hear your story. Uh, you know, like, where did you grow up? Uh, where did you go to school? What caused you to start the not-for-profit? And then explain what you do to our listeners. Uh, and then, wow, My great friend is on hold. Richard is here. Richard Roberts from the State Department. Yay! Engineer Andrew, you can go ahead and put him through while Guilherme is answering this question. So go ahead, Guilherme. Let's hear from you.

Well, Joyce, I was born and raised in the south of Brazil in a city called Porto Alegre. So whenever we talk about Brazil, everyone thinks about these beautiful beaches and warm weather during the whole year, but we are actually very close to Uruguay and Argentina, so we have some winter here, but right now it's summer, so it's very, very warm. I don't have a history that it's pretty typical for persons who work with persons with disabilities. I'm not a person with disability and I don't have anyone in my family. I didn't have much contact with persons with disabilities until I was 15 years old, where I had the opportunity to go to the United States in an exchange student program. So I lived for 6 months in Monroe, Michigan, a small town, but very, very interesting opportunity and experience for me. And very different From what I was used to here in Brazil, there were many persons with disabilities in the school that I went. And in the beginning, it was uncomfortable for me because I didn't know exactly how to approach, how to talk with this person with different kind of disability. Disabilities. And in one class, I was paired with Andrew. Andrew had a physical disability. He was in a wheelchair. And we got very, very close. So he was one of my best friends, very, very intelligent student. Funny. He was such an amazing person, and I understood much more about Andrew than just his being in a wheelchair. I was 15 years old, so I was probably not mature enough to understand the importance of that, experience. But I came back to Brazil. I went to law school, and when I studied law, I learned about the quota law that we have in Brazil that obligates companies starting from 100 employees to employ a certain percentage, from 2 to 5%, of persons with disabilities. And when I learned about that, I saw a lot of companies complaining about, saying that they were being obligated to hire persons that would not reach the same results as a person without a disability. And that's when I decided to start the work with Egalité. Uh, we are a for-profit company, um, and, and we, we wanted to do that exactly to show the value of the services that we provide and more especially the potential that persons with disabilities have in the labor markets. So since then, we've been working with the employment of persons with disabilities, providing support and technology in the recruitment of persons with disabilities all over Brazil., and also providing consulting services to provide accommodation, accessibility, and especially making the company be more inclusive, creating a more inclusive culture inside those companies. So I've been working with that since 2010, so it's been a 13-year journey. Now I'm 36, so I started as well very, very early. But what was not common, usually Dan Jules and people involved were doing that later on their careers, but for me it was very important to work with something that would create social impact, and I became an advocate and a very enthusiastic person about diversity and inclusion.

Well, you know what I say about you? You were saying how you met this person and they impacted you. You know, in life we all get to make that one decision. Decision that will change or could change so many lives, or we don't. But you did. You made that one decision, and now look what has happened, which is wonderful. So, you know, my hat's off to you. That is awesome. Richard, I am so glad we have you.

Yes, thank you very much. I'm Thrilled to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me.

Okay, so for all of you listeners, I know what you're saying, Richard, is that Richard Roberts, the person Joyce Bender says on every radio show, a special shout out to my friend Richard Roberts? Yes, it's him. You get to hear him live. And he is a wonderful person, a great friend, a great civil rights leader, a just champion for the U.S. State Department, and it is such a pleasure. He's the Deputy Cultural Affairs Officer and American Presence Officer working at the Embassy in Brasília. Welcome to the show, Richard.

Oh, thank you, thank you so much. Like I said, I'm thrilled to be here.

Joyce Bender. Well, we're thrilled to have you. And Richard, if I may ask you, for our listeners in the United States, and I don't know if you heard about our listening audience in France, Brazil, Canada, Australia, South Korea, Ireland, Norway, UK, Russia, Germany, South Africa, the Netherlands, Sweden, Spain, and Denmark, but as you can see, Oh, and this year is my 20th anniversary of the show, this year. Uh, so see, I'm celebrating with you, Richard. So for our listeners in the United States and around the world, how about if we begin by you telling your story, uh, why you chose to work for the State Department in this area of diplomacy, and then you could tell us about the other embassies that you've been to. And I have a young woman with a disability with a degree in international studies that her dream is to be with the State Department being a diplomat. And so you'll be getting her resume, Richard. And that's one of the reasons I wanted you first tell your story, why you chose the State Department. But when you choose that, maybe you could talk about what is required to work for the State Department.

Sure, yeah, absolutely. And I was, I was so impressed that you even have a listener in Mongolia as well. And I served in Mongolia for a short period of time. It's a beautiful country. So I think it's just fantastic that you have people from, from all over the world. And I'm really happy to tell you about my story and also to encourage anyone who's listening who is an American You have to be a U.S. citizen. You have to be an American citizen, and you have to be between the ages of 21 and 60. So— but that's about it. You know, it's interesting, to become a U.S. diplomat, you don't have to have a college degree. If you have a college degree, it doesn't have to be in any specific area. You don't have to have any particular background. So, really, the requirements are very broad. It's just be a U.S. citizen between the ages of 21 and 60. Now you might think, well, aren't they looking for something more than that? And they are, and they're looking for people that have these dimensions, these different attributes. They want people who have composure, can stay poised and self-composed, thinking on their feet when things are happening, people who show cultural adaptability, people who can take initiative, show leadership, have good judgment, people who are resourceful, work well do well with others. Those are the kinds of things that the State Department is looking for. They're not looking for a particular major or a particular background. And I didn't know about this when I joined the State Department. So when I joined the State Department, I was— it was a mid-career change for me. I was 45, and I had been a psychology professor at the University of Maryland on their overseas— their global campus. And a friend of mine wanted to take the Foreign Service exam. She said, "Why don't you take it with me?" And I thought, you know, I've heard about this. I've always kind of wondered what this test was like that, you know, diplomats have to take in order to enter the Foreign Service. And I took it and I passed it. I was really surprised, actually. And from there, after I passed it, I thought, "Yeah, wow." Because I never thought that this would be a career for someone like me. I just didn't think this would be the kind of thing that people— that would be for someone kind of like who I was. And maybe some of your listeners are thinking that too. Maybe they're thinking, oh, I don't know, diplomacy, you know, it sounds interesting, but maybe they wouldn't want somebody like me. And my advice is they would definitely want somebody like you, because what we're looking for is diversity. We are looking to reflect the entire American experience, and that includes people with disabilities. In fact, I'm going to read to you now from the accessibility and accommodations page from the website at the State Department. And they say the U.S. Department of State is committed to recruiting and retaining qualified individuals with disabilities. And an employee or qualified applicant may request a reasonable accommodation to participate in the application process or to perform the essential duties of the position for which they were hired. So even when applying for the position, if you're going to take the Foreign Service exam, if you need to take—

and then if you pass that and you take the oral exam, accommodations can be made for you.

And I encourage anyone who's interested in a career in the State Department to go to our website. It's very easy. It's www.state.gov— gov— www.state.gov and click on job seekers. There's a link for job seekers. And you'll see all of the different possibilities. There's so many different ways that you can get involved in the diplomacy from so many different backgrounds, so many different things. So I really hope that some of your listeners will be encouraged to do this because, like I said, I hadn't really thought about it until a friend of mine recommended it. And then once I investigated and looked into it, I thought, "No, this is a wonderful job. This is a terrific opportunity." But I had never thought it would be for me. And I hope maybe there's some listeners out there who think, "Yeah, maybe this is for me too," and they'll start investigating it. And I hope will eventually join.

Yeah, and I would encourage you to. I mean, it's a wonderful, wonderful opportunity to meet so many different people around the world and have an impact. You've been to different countries as a diplomat, Richard. Where all have you served?

So my first tour was in Niger in West Africa, and then I went Tokyo, and then I went to Seoul, South Korea, where you and I met. And then after that, I served briefly in Mongolia, and then I went to Okinawa, Japan, and that's where you and I met again. And then I came to Brazil last summer, and I'll be in Brazil for 3 years, where I hope Guilherme and I can welcome you.

Yes, maybe over this date he told me about before you got on, which is— Guilherme, if I'm right, September 21st, right? Isn't that the International Day of People with Disabilities in Brazil?

Exactly, that's when we celebrate the National Disability Day here in Brazil, September September 21st.

How about that? I never knew that before. You learn something all the time. Well, Richard, as you know, um, and you also know how— or worst thing that ever happened to me is when we lost Mary Brooker. Worst thing that ever happened to me. And it just so happens that Mary Brooker Joyce Bender died August 2021 tragically in a hiking accident. She was one of my very closest friends, the president of Bender Consulting Services, a dynamo, and just a wonderful person. And you, Richard, traveled with— we traveled with you in South Korea and in Japan, Okinawa. Uh, what, what do you remember most about Mary?

Oh gosh, yeah, that was just awful. And, um, yeah, it's very sad to think that when you come to Brazil, Mary, you know, it's hard for me to imagine her not being with us, you know. Um, that makes me really sad. Um, but I, I, the thing with Mary is that I don't think she— I don't think the word stranger was in her vocabulary. You know, I think just friends she hadn't met yet because I don't think there was such a thing as strangers, was there? I mean, it just was people, the friends she hadn't met. And I don't think she ever met anyone that she did not become friends with, that she didn't just immediately take to and they just took to her and just really, you know, just really loved her and cared about her. She was just really a wonderful person and her energy, her enthusiasm, Yeah, yeah, she's very missed.

Mm-hmm. That's a great way to describe her. I'm gonna remember that. A stranger to friends she hasn't met yet. Yeah, that's Mary. That was Mary, no matter where she was, no matter where. And I'm sorry, I'm sorry, could be meeting with the president of a university.

Yeah, it was just the same to her. Yep.

Or janitor, didn't matter. Yeah, exactly. So, Guilherme, you do all this work in employment. I'm wondering, how, how do you recruit people with disabilities in Brazil? I'm wanting, wanting to know if, you know, you work with people across the board, like physical, as you mentioned with your friend in a wheelchair, neurodiverse, like autism, blind or deaf, any type of mobility issue or intellectual disabilities? Do you work with all or just a segment?

Um, Joyce, we work across the board with all kinds of disabilities, so our mission is to be inclusive And we wouldn't be doing that if we couldn't provide opportunities for everyone. And having a quota law, it's something that on one hand can be good, but on the other hand, it has its challenges because companies would usually focus on disabilities that would not require any kind of accommodation. So we try to convince companies to understand the potential of the candidate, to focus on, on their profile rather than just selecting some kind of disability. And This is challenging for us because we develop an online recruitment platform totally accessible for persons with disabilities. And talking about technology, this is where it can be challenging to accommodate all these different kinds of accessibility. But we've been working hard for the past 10 years building this solution, and we know it's not perfect, but every day we work and we listen a lot to the feedback that we have from our candidates, from our companies, to provide a better software solution because we want that not only persons that live in big cities in Brazil like Rio or São Paulo being able to have access to this kind of opportunities. So I was talking to you before we went on air of the job fair that we organize every year on the week of the National Builder's Day. That's how we had the pleasure to have the Embassy participating with us last year as well. We had job opportunities in all 27 states of Brazil in the 3 editions that we did of the job fair. So this is what we want. We want to provide job opportunities for every person with disability everywhere in Brazil.

Now, and that's wonderful, Guilherme, when you recruit people with disabilities in Brazil, is that mainly from like NGOs and universities or some type of vocational rehab? How are, how are these people referred to you?

Um, during these years we built a strong alliance, uh, with, uh, with NGOs, with the government, uh, with institutions that work with persons with disabilities. But I would say that most of our users come straight forward from the effort that we do, especially with our online solutions, because we also provide content and online courses for free for persons with disabilities. So we don't want not just to find the job, but help people to prepare to enter the labor market and also upskilling and getting even better job opportunities. So this, I would say, is what we invest in our social area of our company. And this is— we're getting very good results for having more and more people engaged. And— but yeah, there are a lot of NGOs and the government with great local efforts. And what we are able to do is to connect everyone in this big alliance to create more employment and inclusion.

You know, one thing you said that is so true, uh, Guillermo, is that people with significant disabilities— I'm meaning blind or deaf or in a wheelchair or using, some type of speaking device, whatever it is, has a much harder time gaining employment than someone with a non-apparent disability. Unless it's like autism, some— something very visible to corporations. Even in the United States, uh, Richard, as you know, there is, uh, a percentage that they asked federal agencies to hire people with disabilities. And targeted, meaning significant disabilities, are the hardest to find and get employed. So, it's funny, on a macrocosm, it's the same. You know what I mean? It's the— there is a great correlation there. in the United States as what you just said, Guilherme. And I wanted to ask you, Guilherme, I remember once someone said to me, a corporation, hey Joyce, can you find people with disabilities for this company in Brazil? And I said, well, so far when I checked, you know, there was little accessibility. So if you can't get into the building, how could you get a job? So I wanted to ask you, what have you seen as the amount of accessibility in transportation, buildings, roads, sidewalks, Braille on elevators, captioning? What have you seen?

Well, this is a huge challenge for us. I'm the optimist, so I always like to look forward and understand that since we started our work 13 years ago, we have Improved a lot. There were some new laws that passed here in Brazil that help us to create better accessibility. But we know that we are very, very distant from an ideal environment for inclusion, and especially compared to the US. Where you have much more accessible buildings, transportation. So it's not easy for that in Brazil, but I believe that we're evolving. The good thing is that companies are more willing to work on that, thinking about their employees. And also thinking about persons with disabilities as their clients, their consumers. So this is something that's very important to have in mind. You're creating accommodation not only for one person that's going to work in your building, but it may be some contractor that you have that has a disability. It may be a client that's going to visit you, or maybe even someone that, that has temporary limitations in their, in their health. So it's something that companies are starting to look and really invest more, but we still have lack of investment from our government. So this is something that we need to work a lot, and this creates a lot of issues when we talk about employment. We have trouble with accessibility in our education system. So whenever we're going to employ a person with disability, they probably had a much harder time to get education than a person without a disability. To give you an example, I met a deaf person that they were not able to get a sign language interpreter in the university, and the person wanted to pay their own sign language interpreter, but they wouldn't provide access because they were not a student. So what this person did is that her mom went to college with her, so that she would have to pay in a private university two times to be able to graduate, and her mom was the interpreter. So this is the kind of barrier that we still have to face here in Brazil. That's much harder when we talk with persons in the U.S. So this can be very challenging, but we see a lot of resilience for persons with disabilities here in Brazil, and we try to overcome those barriers talking to companies explaining the scenarios, and we have a lot of companies engaged on improving accessibility and also providing training to help the persons with disabilities to grow their career.

Well, you know, it takes a mobilization of people to see that change. You know, in the United States, several years before the ADA was signed, Justin Dart and his wife Yoshiko went around the United States and 5 territories 5 times meeting with disability groups, encouraging them to get other people on board to support, you know, the ADA. Now, obviously, you know, few people can do that, but what you do have to do is in different cities try to get disability rights leaders, you know, going to the legislation— try legislators talking about this, because like that example you gave, Oh my goodness, like how many people could have their mother go to college with them? And I mean, and by the way, that once again shows how much people with disabilities want to gain employment in the long run. So that, that is an amazing story that you just told. Uh, do you see, uh, Guillerme, housing? Is there housing Or is it also not accessible?

Yes, we face problems in housing, especially where, when you go to areas that you don't have proper street, and this can be very common here in Brazil. You go, for example, to the favelas, it would be very, very difficult. We even started a project with an NGO that works at favelas so we could improve the accessibility. But here, especially at those points, is where we see the Brazilian people coming together. And this is something that I would like Richard to comment about, is that people help each other a lot. So we don't have great accessibility, but we have great people that are willing to help and overcome those barriers. So it's not ideal that you grab someone's chair to go over some stairs, but if that is what it takes for, for a person to go to school, to the doctor, You probably will find someone around to do that. So we see a lot of connection and people helping each other to overcome those barriers that we'll face in our country.

Now that is wonderful. That is wonderful. Not surprising about the people. That is really wonderful. Well, Richard, what you didn't mention, in addition to being a psychology professor and a diplomat, you also are an author. You're all about language.

Yeah. You're very sweet to mention that, Joyce Bender. Thank you. Yeah. No, I have. I've written a few books, 3 books with my co-author who's my academic advisor, Roger Cruz. And yeah, it's nice of you to mention that. The first book that started though, I was studying Korean. And it was challenging. And people kept saying to me, "Well, it's because you're older. You can't learn Korean at age 50. What are you thinking about?" And I thought, "This doesn't seem right to me." I mean, I know that children have kind of a built-in advantage with language learning. But it shouldn't be impossible for adults. And so I did research. Roger and I did research and investigation. And, you know, we found that in fact adults can learn foreign languages. They just need to approach them in a different way. And so we wrote a book about how adults can learn a foreign language, the cognitive processes about that. And we had such a good time writing that book that we then wrote two more. One is about cross-cultural communication, and the other one is about language and aging.— but thank you for mentioning that. That's very nice of you to mention.

Well, may I ask this question? If— and this is again Richard Roberts we're talking to— if someone wants to purchase any of those books, because they're— what an honor to be mentioned, by the way— are— is— can you get these books on Amazon?

Yes, they're all on Amazon.

That's right.

Well, Richard Roberts on Amazon. I mean, this man is brilliant. I would really encourage you to, you know, look at those books, to purchase those books, because he is just— well, you know what, though? That's a very interesting topic because people do say that. I've heard many people say, well, you can't learn a new language now because you're old. So that is interesting that you too, you know, caught that and worked on that. As you said, not that young people don't have a clear advantage, but, you know, nor is it impossible.

So not at all. No, not at all.

No. And in your book, you tell us how, how to do that, right?

I mean, I talk about, we talk about the Roger Cruz and I talk about the advantages that adults have because adults are strategic learners. And so kids, they can be more like sponges and it's like you can envy that, but an adult shouldn't try to learn a foreign language the way a child learns a foreign language. But adults should think about the strengths that they have, their individual strengths, and then use those, leverage those. To learn the language and to get enjoyment out of learning the language as well. It's not just about learning the language, it's about really enjoying that and approaching the language, you know, with kind of a— I don't know, like a sense of excitement about it, a sense of really wanting to not just learn the language but to learn the culture and to be able to interact with people and to see the beauty in the language. There are all of these amazing aspects about it. It's not just about learning the grammar. You know, there's so much more than that. And so that's kind of what we try to, you know, talk about in the book and try to encourage people to just get really excited about their language learning journey and not to worry so much about whether they're making mistakes or whether they're sounding natural or not sounding natural. To really just kind of fall in love with the language in a sense.

Great advice. Great advice. Guillerme. I'm sure you have a goal for 2023. So what is your goal? And if a company is listening, or a person with a disability, a company that wants to hire someone, an agency that wants to hire someone, an NGO, or a person with a disability seeking employment, how do they reach out to you?

That's a, that's a great question, Joyce. Thank you. We have been setting our goals for the past few years, and it has been amazing because we always look for our impact. It was very challenging for us, uh, the year of 2020, uh, because companies during the pandemic stopped hiring and, um, we had many, many people coming for us looking for jobs and we wouldn't have any job opportunity. So this is where we had the idea of the job fair, and since 2020 we've been doubling our social impact for the past few years. And we thought— we didn't think we could do it in 2022. It was really hard to reach, but we are confident that we're going to do it again. So we want to double our impact again in 2023, and that means a lot of work a lot of companies, but especially a lot of people employed and happy in the labor market. If anyone wants to reach us, our website, it's Egalite. So spelling, it's E-G-A-L-Y-T-E. Www.brasilinvest.com.br. So this is our website where people find information. We also have some content available in English in our YouTube channel. So you'll find that as well on our website. We're happy to help companies in Brazil and all over the world. We've provided some training and exchanged some experience with companies in the US, UK, Bangladesh, India, Nigeria, Chile, Uruguay, Argentina. So we really like to share what we've learned and the experience that we have here in Brazil. Brasil to everyone that is interested.

That's awesome. All right, well, everyone, you heard it. You know, I know we soon will be ending the show, and I think it's clear that the biggest obstacles, number one, accessibility accommodations, then of course stigma. But I wanted to ask you, Richard and Guillermo, you know, you're such, both such wonderful people. But, you know, you just don't do that. Something influences you. So, Richard, I'll start with you. Who do you consider your role models?

Well, you, Joyce Bender, you're my role model. So, it's just been, you know, meeting you in Korea. I remember the very first moment that we met. Do you remember where it was?

First moment we met? Was it at the hotel?

The hotel?

Yep.

Yeah, I remember that. And just, you know, that trip was so wonderful, but just watching you being with people and interacting with them and the positivity that you radiated. And yet You also hold people's feet to the fire. Do you know what I mean? So you're positive and you're upbeat and really care about people, but you're also, you don't take any prisoners either. So you're serious about what you do, and that combination of positivity and commitment, I just think it's really wonderful. So I wish I could be more like you.

Richard, that is so kind of you. That really is. That means a lot to me. I will say, um, I don't know if you remember the first engagement we went to, but it was with— I think, how could I explain this— someone that works for the government in, in Korea, some type of agency. Maybe later. Yeah. And we went into talking like there was little communication. And when I walked out, you said to me, you should be the diplomat. And right then I knew, oh, I'm going to like him. Right that minute I knew I was going to like you. And so all of you know, here in western Pennsylvania, Richard has visited us here in Pittsburgh not that long ago. Uh, he was here, and he'll be here many more times, right, Richard?

Yeah. And you know, my goal for 2023 is to get you to Brazil. So, Guillerme and Carla, we're going to work hard to get you down here this year.

I'm coming. I'll be coming. I told that to Guillerme because, as I always say, we have a lot of work to do. One person you can impact, one is worth it. So how about you, Guillermo? Who do you consider your role model?

I hope that you get a chance to meet him soon, Joyce Bender and Richard as well. Some, some of the team of the Embassy and the Consulate already met, but he's Djalma, that's, he's my business partner now and has been a great friend for many, many years. So he started his HR career in Walmart and he was just starting his career and we created together great business case. We helped to employ over 900 persons with disabilities in an 18-month period, and he became one of the most respected HR executives with a disability here in Brazil. And he was a senior manager working for Ernst Young leading the diversity and inclusion agenda for Latin America. And I don't know exactly how, but we were able to bring him to Egalité, and now I have the honor to have him as my business partner. He's such an amazing person and a great role model for us, especially because I believe Jama is, I would say, a perfect role model and example on whatever we talk about the potential and how can a person with disability have a high performance and deliver and being part of, of this change. So, uh, Shaul Meir is an amazing person, and, and I hope we all can be together here in Brazil talking about that and sharing these great experiences and learning from each other.

He sounds like a wonderful man, so I would love to meet him. He sounds wonderful. Well, folks, we end every show with a quote. And today I specifically called Miss Judy Heumann, the international disability rights leader, star of Crip Camp, author of Being Heumann, you know, oh, so much stuff she's done in disability, and asked her to— for a quote for this show. And she said, employment not only gives us salaries, but it gives us personal dignity and allows our community to realize that we as disabled people are part of the larger society. Brazil has been working to advance employment for the disabled people, as has the U.S. collaboration, and that benefits us all. Said Miss Judy Heumann. This is Joyce Bender, America's Voice, on Disability Matters at voiceamerica.com. Make sure you share this show. Go to Spotify, show this show, share it with everyone. And in the words of Mary Brooker, choose joy.

Voice America would like to thank you for tuning in. Please join us next Tuesday at 11 AM Pacific time and 2 PM Eastern time for another installment of Disability Matters right here on the Voice America Variety Channel. We are the leader in live internet talk radio. VoiceAmerica.com.