Sarah Helm: Discover's Commitment to People with Disabilities

Welcome to Disability Matters with your host Joyce Bender. All comments, views, and opinions expressed on the show are solely those of the host, guest, and callers. Now the host of Disability Matters, here's Joyce Bender.

Welcome everyone, welcome to the show, to everyone in the United States, and around the world. And before I continue, as I have said on every show to all of my brothers and sisters in the Ukraine, especially those with disabilities, we are behind you. I am on the board of the World Institute on Disability, and we are doing everything in our power to help you. And that brings me to the countries that I've already visited with my tremendous friends from the State Department, starting with Richard Roberts. Ah, Richard, I love him so much. I first met him in South Korea, then in Japan. The people I'm talking about are with the embassy in the different countries. And so people go to them and say, we're looking for an expert on the employment of people with disabilities. And then I'm often asked to go speak. For a week in that country. Gun-young, I love you, Gun-young. He is in South Korea. He is just a tremendous person and disability rights leader. Oh, my goodness, Cheryl Harris. I spoke last year to Tunisia by virtually, because obviously I could not go anywhere with COVID And now, and then to Libya, and now she is back here in the United States at the State Department. And then that brings me to Vinya Men. I just, we are all thinking about you right in Kazakhstan. Every time I think about the time I spent there with you, I'm sure everyone is nervous, but we also have listeners in China, United Kingdom, Australia, Saudi Arabia, all around the world. And in some countries, there's only one person. Mongolia, one person. Finland, one person. You know what? That one person makes a difference. That one person makes a difference. In the lives of other people. And here we go, Yoshiko Dart, a special shout out to you. I saw Yoshiko at the, um, FDR Memorial because I'm on the FDR Memorial Legacy Committee and we were celebrating the 25th anniversary. And of course the disability rights leaders fought to make sure They got the wheelchair in the statue. Originally was not. And so, I had the great pleasure of seeing all these disability rights leaders, but Yoshiko, have to admit, I was so thrilled to see you. Yoshiko's husband was the late Justin Dart Jr., who was the great general during the ADA. And so, I mention her on every show so we remember Justin. And then of course my sponsor, Highmark, who has been the sponsor of this show for over a year and such a great company. But I have to tell you, oh my goodness, I was so excited when I found out who was going to be on with me today because I met Sarah helm several years ago, instantly liked her, and when I heard she was going to be on today, oh, I was so excited. She is the Senior Manager of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion for Discover Financial Services. Sarah, welcome to the show.

Oh my gosh, Joyce Bender, I cannot thank you enough for inviting me. It is It's an honor to be here with you, truly. Listen, you have always been a shero of mine due to just your tireless, tireless advocacy and leadership and removing so many barriers, Joyce. And of course, just creating employment opportunities. Your leadership is, I mean, it's just, it's immeasurable and it's unparalleled. And I thank you so much for everything that you have done for this community. Of course, the work that you're doing most recently with the World Institute on Disability. I've talked with Marcy Roth and Susan Mazrui about what you are doing, and I thank you, and I'm hoping to get involved myself. But lead on, Joyce. Lead on. I'm so excited to be here with you today.

Lead on.

Yes, you can.

Did you hear that? Yes, you can. Lead on. Yes, that is it.

Lead on.

Yes. And when I went to Japan, even though, you know, I had a translator with me, but I told everyone, okay, you're going to say this, lead on. You're even, you know, you're going to teach you to say this, lead on. And when I heard all of them yelling, lead on, oh, I was so—

yeah.

But anyway, Sarah, it's wonderful to have you as a guest today. Also because it's been several years since I've seen you. So let's start with you, uh, and your story for our listeners around the world and in the United States. Where did you grow up, and then how did you ultimately move into human resources and then on to diversity and inclusion?

Yes, certainly. So I grew up in a very, very small town in central Illinois. It is actually considered a village of about 1,400. My dad was a farmer. He was a former education administrator. He was a K-8 principal that took over the farm when his father died. And my mom was an elementary school teacher. That is how they met. The principal started dating the new teacher. And so they got married fairly quickly. And once I was older and learned about how quickly they got married after they met, I was startled. But no, I had the most wonderful upbringing, just two amazing, amazing parents who really shaped me in, in every way and told me that I could go out and do anything that I put my mind to, really encouraged me to follow my dreams and my passions. And so I went to Illinois State University for my bachelor's and I ended up going to Bowling Green State University for my master's, and that was in August of 2001, and I was studying college student personnel. I thought that I wanted to be like a forever orientation leader. I was an orientation leader at Illinois State for a couple of years, and once I realized that maybe you could do this as a job full-time, I was like, "Well, sign me up." But I got to graduate school, like I said, in August, and actually On September 11th, and again, this is 2001, I was actually diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. And I think, again, we all know where we were that day. You know, I certainly just have a very vivid recollection of being in the hospital most of that morning, but I also remember leaving the hospital and going back to campus and answering phones as parents were, you know, calling and just very concerned and didn't know exactly what was happening.. And it's always sort of helped to center me, give me perspective. Not that I can't have a bad day, of course we all can, we're entitled to that. But again, just help me maintain that perspective. And once I was diagnosed, of course, I started reading about MS because I didn't know a lot about it. I didn't have any sort of family of origin, and I quickly came across information about the disability civil rights movement. And I remember reading, like, Joseph Shapiro's book that he wrote in, like, the mid-1990s that I was just fascinated by. And I realized again very quickly that, you know, this was bigger than me. This was much bigger than me and my diagnosis. And I wanted to learn everything and get involved. And so, at Bowling Green, I was able to do a practicum experience in their disability office. And Disability Services Office. And I really just fell in love with it. They also had some classes on disability leadership that I took. They had a student organization that I got involved in. And it really changed my entire career. I mean, my life and my career trajectory. And I know that that's oftentimes a story that we hear, right? That maybe you don't have any experience with disability until you have an experience with disability, either yourself or a close loved one. And that was certainly the case for me. I didn't have any disability in my family. And I was very young. I just turned 21 years old. And it— again, I just remember coming home from work. I was doing that orientation work. But I remember coming home and just wanting to devour anything I could get my hands on about disability, and like I said, the disability civil rights movement. I came across information about Deaf President Now and all of those things. And I just realized that Wow, Joyce, you've talked about these people that we stand on their shoulders and have made so much progress. But I was, also realized that we have a long way to go. And so once I graduated with my degree, I ended up going to University of Tennessee where they had a very unusual, in such a wonderful way, program that was called the Disability Careers Office. And it was a liaison office between our Career Services and our Disability Services office at the University of Tennessee. So I had a chance for about 7 years to counsel University of Tennessee students with disabilities on career development and employment preparation, and just loved it. I also had the opportunity to consult with other universities who were looking to do the same thing, 'cause what we realized was that Career Services wasn't really familiar with disability and disability inclusion, and disability services wasn't really familiar with career development. And so it was a real gap that we identified, and it just was a wonderful opportunity. At the same time, I got my PhD, and after that, I am from Illinois, like I said, and so I definitely wanted to move back. My mom had retired from teaching, and my sister was up there with her 3 girls, and I thought, Maybe I can try my hand on this corporate work in diversity, equity, and inclusion and really bring my passion and my love for everything disability inclusion to the workplace. And I have just had the pleasure of being at Discover Financial Services since 2014. And we started— when I started in 2014, we had a team of 2, and now we have a team of 10. We just appointed our our first Chief Diversity Officer last year, and the growth of our team has provided me with even more opportunity to focus on disability inclusion. So I truly believe that I have, I have the best job in the world. Maybe you may disagree, Joyce, because you probably feel like you have the best job in the world, but, and I could understand that, but it's just been a pleasure, and I look forward to all that's ahead for us.

What a great story. And may I say, and I want all of you listening, all people, all business people, or if you work in the federal government, state government, local government, not-for-profit, whatever it is, but let's focus on corporate America for a minute. If you have leaders like Sarah that will stand up and say, Hey, I'm living with a non-apparent disability. That makes all the difference. Because then people say, wow, that dynamo Sarah, she has a disability, she has a PhD, she has this great job at Discover, so why am I ashamed? Folks, that's what it takes.

It takes people like you. Absolutely.

That's what makes the difference. As all of you know, I'm living with epilepsy, and I always tell young people, I'm living with epilepsy and I'm not ashamed I'm living with epilepsy. But when I go to a company and they want to hire people with disabilities and they'll say to me, "Oh, Joyce, we're so glad you're here because, you know, we want to hire people with disabilities." And I'll say, "Okay, stop right there. You already have. They're working for you right now." Exactly. Exactly.

Absolutely.

Epilepsy, depression, bipolar disorder, diabetes, post-traumatic stress disorder. I could go on and on. It's just you don't know.

Absolutely.

Yes. You don't know. And Sarah, um, why do you think that is? What's your feeling of why people keep it a secret that they have a disability?

Oh, gosh, Joyce. You know, I think, I mean, it's just been a few years since we started asking people to self-identify. And I think even perhaps with positive intent in the past when it wasn't something that we asked, I think a lot of people got counseled to not say anything. For fear, for fear of what that meant for them, for fear of that perception. And I understand it. That is real. That is real. Obviously, when we look at the unemployment rate of individuals with disabilities who are of working age, that is real. And in order for people to feel comfortable, we have to build that trust. And building that trust is by taking action, not just lip service, but taking action and showing our employees with disabilities that we are prioritizing this, that we are focused on this, that we are listening to them, that we are lifting their voices, and that we are making sure that we are creating an experience over the entire employee lifecycle that is an experience where people feel like they can come in and be their best selves. But I think it is trust that we need to continue to build for people to feel comfortable. I think it's, you know, again, concerns about how much to disclose, what should I say, what should I not say, accommodations. What should I request? What should I not request? What will that mean for me? Again, what will the perception be? And that is, like you said, Joyce Bender, right? It is, I try to, because I am not ashamed. As a matter of fact, I am opposite of ashamed. I am here today because of my diagnosis. And I'm proud of that. I'm proud of myself. I'm proud of my company. I've had to take time away when I wasn't well. It has been nothing but supported completely. And that is the experience that I want everyone to have because I know that that is not the experience that everyone is having. But I really think, Joyce, it comes down to action, communicating that action, not just lip service, lifting those voices, and building trust.

Yes, so agree. I want to make a comment, but I want to say first, you know what, Sarah, you're like me. You are a business person But, oh, you are living like a disability rights leader. I love it. I love hearing you.

I love it. Well, listen.

What I was going to say, Sarah, is that when I— over the years, I founded Bender in 1995. As you know, as a for-profit company focused on the competitive employment of people with disabilities. For profit. People with disabilities don't need pity, they need paychecks.

So that's exactly right, and we don't need to hire them at a discount.

Yeah, and when I started the company, if you would have told me that in 2022, when you're talking on the radio to Sarah, 70% of people with disabilities will still not be counted in the workforce, I wouldn't have believed it. I would think, oh, that's impossible. How is that possible? It is terrible. Now, do I see the ship moving?

Yes.

But let me say, big ships move very slowly. So we're just moving, but we are moving, but we're moving slowly, or we wouldn't have those terrible statistics. You know, the 19th is Global Accessibility Awareness Day, and yet if you go to their website, almost 98% of websites are not completely accessible. Once again, how? How is that possible?

Yes.

And I will say that one of the things people have told me, Sarah, is the reason they do not self-disclose is because they are afraid they will be treated differently.

Yes.

That's why you need people like Sarah. I always tell companies, get leaders to talk about it. If they talk about it, it starts to break down that fear that other people have. And so comes the world of non-apparent disabilities, which mental health is one. And I'm thinking companies are paying more attention to that. What do you think, Sarah?

Oh, absolutely. We certainly are. We certainly are. And listen, mental health is intersectional, right? Mental health crosses every one of our populations. Right now it is 1 in 4, I think, have a diagnosis, right, a mental health diagnosis, soon to be 1 in 3, right? We are dealing with this pandemic that right behind it is the secondary pandemic in terms of mental health. But yes, at Discover, we have, I mean, so focused on mental health, really increased our awareness, our services, just communicating about it, right? Talking about it. Like you said, Joyce Bender, it's, you know, the power of storytelling. We actually have been rolling out this awesome inclusive leadership training to all of our leaders at Discover. And we are just early in these, uh, in our rollout. We want to do it company-wide. And Joyce, this came from our executive committee and our management committee, our top like 35 or so. We took them through this training and they said, we want everyone to experience this. And in that training, we talked about the power of storytelling. You can do training, but you are 22 times more likely to remember a story, a powerful story. And so, as a part of this training, we have 3 different sections, and one of the sections is about storytelling, sharing your why. Why are you committed to this? And we had a couple of our vice presidents share their story in front of people that, you know, have worked for them, with them, For years, people that have been at Discover for 30 years and came up to me after and said, "Oh my gosh, I've never talked about this. Have I really been an inclusive leader? Have I really truly brought my full self to work?" And then once telling their story, I had someone come up to me and say, within 10 minutes, I had another participant come up to me and say, I'm experiencing the same thing and I've never talked about it. That's that level of trust. It was incredible. And that's what we're doing across our company. We're asking them to come up with at least one inclusive practice over the next 60 to 90 days. And then we're asking them to go through this process called equity sequence and really thinking about the quality of our decisions., and making sure that we are trying to eliminate bias, and thinking about who are we creating this for, who is with us while we are creating it, who are we leaving out, who are we excluding, and how to be inclusive. And it is all about that inclusion. But, yes, it has just been— I have had the pleasure of participating in some of these trainings and helping to deliver it, and it has just been— I mean, I have just been floating because just to see the connection that people are making To me, that is where, I mean, that is where the rubber meets the road, right? And that's where trust is built, is being authentic and vulnerable. But it starts at the top for people to feel as though they can do the same without fear of being treated differently.

Oh, that, I'll tell you what, that makes all the difference, Sarah. That makes so much difference. Yeah. As you know, we have the software training program product that is on the LMS system, iDisability. And it has really taken off, and you better hold on there, Sarah, because when I met you, I don't know, maybe, maybe a few hundred thousand, maybe close to a million, I am not sure. We have 5 million business users on platform today.

Awesome.

And Accenture and Bristol-Myers Squibb, who most recently purchased it, are working with me to spread the news. And my, my point is my minor is in education and I always say Education is right now the only thing we can use to break down barriers to get through to employment. So what you're doing, Sarah, I think is absolutely right on target, what you are doing. But here we are. I'm so excited to talk about you. I think I should probably talk about Discover. So Sarah, tell us about Discover. How large is the company? You know, where are the locations? I can already tell it seems like the company has really good values by the story you just told us. But tell us about Discover.

Absolutely. Yes. So we strive to be the leading digital bank and payment services company. Our mission is to help people spend smarter, of course, manage their debt better, and save more. We're all about brighter financial futures for everyone. And we're about 17,000 employees strong. We are headquartered in a north suburb of Chicago, but we also have call centers in Arizona, Utah, Ohio, and Delaware. And we— in addition to that, we have our Discover Global Network, which is a payments brand at Discover Financial Services, and that is located in Texas. So we are We do have a few hundred employees, primarily in London and Shanghai. And I must say, like, I know that people know Discover as the credit card company, but we are much more than that. So, we do— we offer deposits in terms of checking and savings and retirement. We also offer loans, student loans, home loans, and personal loans. So, that is something that I want to to make sure that people are aware of because we are truly a bank.

You know what, I don't think enough people know that.

I must admit, I don't either.

I didn't realize everything you do. So would you mind going over that one more time, what you do other than just the credit card? Not that the credit card is not very valuable, but what else does Discover do?

Yes. So we have a whole consumer banking unit and we offer checking and savings and help with retirement. We also have a loans unit where we do student loans, home loans, and personal loans. Wow.

That's good for everyone to know. That is good for everyone to know because I think they may have the wrong perception. So yes, I can— and I'm right. I'm right about the commitment of people with disabilities, internal and external, at Discover. But you could talk about it a little bit more because you were starting to talk about it with your executive management.

Yes, yes, yes. So our CEO and President Roger Hochschild, so he's been at Discover for a long time. He is very, very committed to diversity, equity, and inclusion. As a matter of fact, he was one of the one of the first 10 CEOs that signed Disability:IN's CEO letter on disability inclusion, which is really designed for—

I love that. CEO letters.

That is awesome. Yes, one of the first 10. I was so excited. And he was all over it. Absolutely, let's do it. He has participated in Disability:IN's Disability Employment Awareness Month celebrations and talked about Discover and his commitment to disability inclusion. He's about taking action, right, to build an inclusive and accessible and equitable workplace, certainly for people with disabilities, our employees with disabilities, as well as everyone at Discover. We also have participated— of course, we are huge partners of Disability:IN. I listened to your episode with you know, Jill, who is also just, you know, incredible. And yeah, I mean, she's just great. Like Joyce, I used to go to Disability:IN back in 2009 with Alan Muir, who was the head of career opportunities for students with disabilities, and we would go, and it has just grown so immensely under Jill's leadership. I mean, she's just been extraordinary, and we are so lucky to be partners. We did sponsor the conference, their global annual disability conference, for the past couple of years as a presenting partner. So we are out there. We're also very, very proud. Last year we did receive a score of 100 on last year's Disability Equality Index. We assume that we will receive the same score this year, but with that score, we're not stopping there, right? That score of 100 is great. We can celebrate that.. But what we know, and certainly what our CEO knows, our executive committee knows, is that we have more work to do. And they're ready.

Well, I just want to say, first of all, that's wonderful about Disability:IN. I am proud that I was the first DOBE, Disability-Owned Business Enterprise, and now I'm the master mentor mentoring other DOBEs. But about Jill, as everyone knows, Andy Houghton is my partner of iDisability. Andy is the person that partnered with me to design it, and it was created completely by people with disabilities, 100% accessible. So I've known Andy and Jill for years, and I just think the world of her. I mean, she has knocked it out of the park, as you said. And disability in. I remember the time I went, it was so much smaller. Now you go and they have to turn people away to get in, you know, inside for the events and dinner. But yes, she has. And kudos to you and your CEO for everything that you have done getting so involved with disability. And it's hard to describe that conference, isn't it?

Oh my gosh, I mean, I just, I always leave thinking I want to conquer the world. And, you know, I mean, and what I love about it is that it is so collegial. It's so, um, right, we're not sharing trade secrets here. We're not being competitive, right? We are working together as one. We all have the same goals. And it's, you know, it's been amazing the people that I've been able to tap that have been a part of Disability:IN, that have been a part of this work, just to bend their ear, just to talk with them about what they're doing, to share best practices. It's just incredible. That is how this is going to be successful. What works at Discover may not work somewhere else, and that is okay based on just the culture and your organization. But just the ability to share those best practices and have people be so willing to share both their successes and their challenges. Like, hey, we tried this, This maybe didn't go as well as we had planned, and this was why, right? This was our learning from it. Thank you, right? That's helpful as well. And I just found that in Disability:IN, I mean, tenfold, over and over and over, just so many wonderful resources and an amazing group of people that they have been able to get excited about disability and then just grow this organization. Thrilling to me to see how big it's gotten.

Yes, and if you're listening to the show, the conference is in July in Texas, and just go to disabilityin.org and you can find out more information about the conference. And if you own a business but you're not certified as a disability-owned business enterprise, you definitely need to contact Disability:IN because I can tell you, you're going to meet people like Sarah that you normally would not meet. And right now, everyone in supplier diversity is looking for disability-owned business enterprises to put in their supplier diversity as that part of the Disability Equality Index.

So you really—

Really need to go to that conference. You know, you probably heard me tell this to Jill. Well, if you're on the show, you did hear me. I can't begin to tell you how impressed I was when they changed the name from USBLN to Disability In, you know. Yes. Using the name.

Use the name.

Yeah.

Not differently abled. Use the name. Yes. Oh, I so agree with you, Joyce. And again, what did USBLN mean? No one knew, right? What did that say? And, you know, again, the perception being, are we— is the organization— are we hiding it? You know, is that— you know, because that could be the perception, right? Why aren't we saying disability? We need people to understand what this is about. We need to use the word and be proud of it.

It's about disability. That means you're saying it's bad, there's something wrong.

Yep, exactly, exactly right.

So, you know, always remember it's called the Americans with Disabilities Act.

That's right.

Not the Americans with Differently Abled Act. It's called the Americans with Disabilities Act.

Disabilities Act.

So, Sarah, tell me what you're doing. What are you doing at the firm? You told me one thing about the mental health, but what else is Discover doing about the commitment to people with disabilities? What are some of the initiatives right now to increase the employment?

Yeah, Joyce, I was so excited to tell you that last year we participated in Disability Mentoring Day for the first time.

Oh, great!

Right? I was so excited to tell you because, of course, you were— I mean, like, a founder. Like, you were the beginning of the work with AAPD and Disability Mentoring Day. And we just had a great experience last year. We want to grow it this year. But yeah, and we're working with our disability-focused employee resource group on it, and they led it, and they loved it. And so we want to do more. I'm also really, really excited to say that earlier this year, we launched what we are calling Neurodivergent Connections at Discover. And this is an employment initiative I know there are a few organizations out there that have led the way in terms of neurodiversity and really targeting neurodiversity. Joyce Bender, like you said, of course, we have incumbent employees that are neurodiverse, right? I, I'm one of them. But this is about how can we bring in more neurodiversity and how can we further support the employees that we have already, really thinking about this from a universal design approach. So, we are very excited. We just kicked off. We are going to use this consultative approach of best practices and effective training and an end-to-end holistic program solution to attract, to hire, to onboard, to support and retain individuals with autism, neurodivergence, and disabilities. And this is a population that is growing, right? I mean, so we're focused on autism, of course, ADD, ADHD, some of those learning disabilities, again, mental health diagnoses, right? So that population of neurodiversity has really grown and it's continuing to grow. The estimate is that 30 to 40% of the U.S. population is neurodivergent. So we want to appreciate the importance of recruiting and hiring and retaining this incredible talent. And we have been working with some of, again, those organizations that really led the way in creating programs like this. And like I said, they were were so generous to provide us with their challenges and their successes and things to think about and consider and things that they wish they would have thought about prior to. I mean, just so gracious to talk with us before we officially launched the program. And we are working with an amazing external partner. It's a disability-owned, women-owned minority-owned business that has been doing this for a very long time. They have incredible contacts throughout the entire globe, and they are wonderful. So, I feel very, very, very lucky that we are partnering with them. We want to do this right, and we don't know what we don't know. This is new to us, and so we wanted to bring in an external partner who could help us with this, who are really, truly subject matter experts, and I think that we did a very good job of identifying who that was going to be for us. But we have heard, of course, what we want to focus on are the value adds, right? Neurodivergence is about how the brain processes things differently, right? But we want to normalize this. This is just a normal part of how the human brain functions from what is typical, right? It is not a bad thing. No, no. As a matter of fact, it is not at all, because what we are hearing and what we are seeing in terms of real data from some of these organizations that have focused on these targeted programs just like us, that they are seeing that neurodivergent teams were like up to 140% more effective. Than their neurotypical test teams. There's another company that said that members who were neurodiverse that they brought in were 98% task engaged with on the clock. We're seeing lower turnover. We're seeing the ability to recognize and identify patterns that others can't see, problem solving, critical thinking. So this, is where we can have a competitive advantage. When we are looking at the unemployment rate of this population, but the talent that this brings in terms of this neurodivergent population, we would be silly not to be more focused on how we can hire, retain, and support all disabilities, but this neurodiverse population that we really, really want to focus on over the next couple of years. Of course, we want this to be— our goal is for this to be scalable and sustainable. So, we are going to start small, but what has been so interesting is that we've not even done like a formal, like, overall communication about this in terms of our company-wide, but people talk, right? People talk. So we started with our business technology organization, and then our deposits organization learned about it and said, "I want to be a part of this." And now I've talked to our payments organization. Our finance organization wants me to come and talk to their leadership. I have a meeting tomorrow with someone in our consumer banking department. He oversees— he's a vice president for our Discover Home Loans. And during one of our trainings a couple of weeks ago, those inclusive leadership trainings, we talked about neurodivergent connections at Discover, and he came up to me right after training and said, "I have jobs." So I'm meeting with him tomorrow. And I think this is what we are going to see is that once we start communicating about this, that people are going to want to get involved. We're already seeing it, but it's been so exciting, and I can't wait just to see what this means for us this year and moving forward. I know that some of these organizations like JPMorgan Chase and EY, they started very small and now they have entire departments focused on this. They're in multiple locations across the globe. They have neurodivergent employees not just working in IT, or business technology, what we know is that neurodivergent employees can work anywhere in any business unit. And that's really what we're focused on. And of course, we want to enhance our support, our existing resources, tools, things that we can provide our employees to feel more supported. But again, it's nothing about us without us. Right? So we have involved neurodivergent employees at Discover to help us build this. That is critical. We cannot do it without them. We will not be successful without them, of course. So we have involved people from the beginning. We're going to be involving more people. Our— and ERG is getting very involved as well. They're going to help us build the support ecosystem, a peer buddy mentor program for these employees, and we just are so excited and cannot wait to see what is next. But I think that— I think it's really just going to snowball. And like I said, we've already seen that people are interested, they're excited, and they want to become a part of it.

Well, you know what? That is awesome. It's interesting you're talking about this because I was just talking about this the other day with Eye Disability. One of the things we talk about is hiring and interviewing people with autism. And I also talk about this when I speak at conferences. You interview someone who maybe looks the other way doesn't want to shake your hand, seems not loquacious. And no matter what, we know it. You and I know it. HR knows it. But not everyone knows that works at a company. They'll interview someone and say, oh, there's something wrong with this person. They're strange. I mean, I don't want to hire.

Yeah.

And in the meantime, they are missing out on a brilliant employee.

Yes.

This is what I mean about the stigma and how you need education across the board to break that down. And I think that is phenomenal that you are doing that. I just was wearing my shirt yesterday, my t-shirt that says, what is neurodivergent? So I really think that's great what you are doing. But I want to get back to you about what you hope to see. You know, for Discover to become a best practices company, what do you hope you will see?

Yeah, so a couple of years ago, we came up with our diversity, equity, and inclusion belief. Statement, and we spent a lot of time on it. And part of our belief statement says that we believe that all, regardless of race, gender identity, sexual orientation, veteran status, religion, age, or disability, should feel valued, have a sense of belonging, be treated equitable, and enjoy the freedom to be themselves. And I think what my hope is, is that this is fully realized, truly fully realized, where people come to work at Discover every day feeling valued, feeling like they have that sense of belonging, that they're being treated equitably, and that they can enjoy the freedom to be themself. And that is my hope. That is our belief statement. That is what we are putting out there. That is what we believe. And we are working towards making sure that we can fully realize that belief statement.

What a goal is that, and what a great goal that is. And you know what, Sarah, with you leading the charge, I know that's going to happen. I just know it.

Thank you, Joyce Bender.

And your passion that you have. So, Sarah, you just didn't get this way without having different role models in your life, or one, whatever it is. But who would you say is your role model?

You are, you are one of them, Joyce. I know that we, you know, met a few years ago, but I feel like I met you many, many, many years ago because I was watching everything you were doing in awe, uh, and thinking, gosh, I want to be Joyce Bender someday. I mean, just truly, uh, truly, Joyce. I mean, again, your years and years of service and advocacy is unparalleled. I would also say that one of my other role models is Deb Daggett. And Deb, for those who are not familiar with Deb, she worked at Merck for many years. She was their chief diversity officer. And I remember going to Disability:IN and seeing Deb, someone who has an apparent disability, for this huge pharmaceutical company, be the Chief Diversity Officer, and be so good at her job. She brought disability forward, and I just remember looking at Deb and being like, "We need more Debs. We need to see more Joyce Benders." Debs, you don't often see a chief diversity officer with an apparent disability.

And— Very rarely.

Very little. We need more of it. Apparent, not apparent, we need people to be talking about it, yes. But I, you know, Deb then left Merck. She has become, you know, she started her own consulting firm.. And she is working with Disability:IN, and we are an Inclusion Works partner with Disability:IN, which means that we have 3 years of unlimited consulting. And Joyce, when I got the email that Deb Daggett was our consultant, and this was a couple of years ago, I cried because I was like, there I— there is no one. I could— I just was so, so, so thrilled to know that at least for the next 3 years, and we are re-upping with them, but that I got to work with Deb Gaggett, who I've just held— I've just, you know, again, just like you, without you knowing, without Deb knowing, I've just put both of you on this pedestal. And just been so honored to learn from both of you. And so I would say those are— I mean, you and Deb, you are at the top of my list for sure. And I thank you.

Oh, well, I mean, that, you know, the feeling is mutual with you, Sarah. And, you know, I just want to mention something for young people with disabilities listening to this show. I have a not-for-profit now called the Bender Leadership Academy, and at that not-for-profit, we are training high school students with disabilities about the world of work. We also have a mental health disability training for those high school students. So we're going to have a national campaign soon coming out about not being ashamed that you have a mental health disability because kids with disabilities are bullied more than any other group in the United States. And I started doing this 20 years ago as a— on a volunteer basis. And I started in Delaware. It's funny you would mention, you know, where you are. I started in Delaware.

Yeah.

And I would teach high school students with disabilities to believe in themselves and how awesome they are. Then I started doing it in Pittsburgh. It's still in Delaware to this day. I still do it there at 3 different schools in Pittsburgh. And then after all of these years of doing this, in 2016, I founded a not-for-profit, the Bender Leadership Academy, and it's just wonderful. It really is. These kids have kept in touch with me all these years. It is unbelievable. I love them. And I go back to Disability Mentoring Day. It is the third Wednesday of every October. And it is run by AAPD, which I'm proud to be a vice chair of the American Association of People with Disabilities. And in addition to all of that, Pittsburgh is a leader in Disability Mentoring Day. We even have a VIP event the Monday before. But I hope that people will start including people with disabilities, you know, when they employ people. Yes. So, so, um, do you have a message for our listeners?

Uh, lead on, Joyce.

Oh, that's the best message there could be.

Here's my other, here's my other one. So the one I have on today, and I'm not sure where this originated, it could be from this organization, I'm not sure, but there is an incredible organization out there. It's called U Revolution, like the letter U Revolution. It stands for Uncomfortable Revolution. It is, again, a women-owned, minority-owned, disability-owned business, and they have this amazing gear, sweatshirts and stickers and anything you'd want. But the sweatshirt I have on today says If you embrace diversity but ignore disability, you're doing it wrong.

Oh, that is so good. What a great saying. I'll tell you, Sarah, thank you so much for being with us.

Thank you, Joyce Bender.

Yeah, we end every show with a quote, and today it is, men are not prisoners of fate, but prisoners of their own minds, said President Franklin Delano Roosevelt. This is Joyce Bender, America's Voice, where disability matters, at voiceamerica.com. And in the words of Mary Blocker, remember, choose joy.

Voice America would like to thank you for tuning in. Please join us next Tuesday at 11 AM Pacific Time and 2 PM Eastern Time for another installment of Disability Matters, right here on the Voice America Variety Channel. We are the leader in live internet talk radio. VoiceAmerica.com.