Sharrelle Barber: Drexel University Center on Racism and Health

Welcome to Disability Matters with your host Joyce Bender. All comments, views, and opinions expressed on the show are solely those of the host, guest, and callers. Now the host of Disability Matters, here's Joyce Bender.

Hi everyone, welcome to the show to everyone in the United States and around the world. I must tell you that we now have 17 countries with listeners and getting larger in China. So, but there are countries where there may only be one listener, like Mongolia or like Finland. Here's what I have to say to you, one listener. You can help me change the world. You can tell people, share it with other people with disabilities, tell other people with disabilities about this show. Especially English-speaking, you are making a difference. And, you know, I have to have a shout-out to Richard Roberts from the State Department. I first met him in South Korea. Now he is in Japan. Also, Gang Young, who is in South Korea, another great person. Venyamin, Venyamin in Kazakhstan, Venyamin, um, Always thinking about you. With everything going on in the Ukraine, I am sure that is nerve-wracking where you are. And to all my brothers and sisters across the board in Ukraine, but specifically people with disabilities, I am always with you. Always thinking about you. And then we have Cheryl Harris. Oh, my goodness. I met her which when I worked remote through Zoom on a program with Tunisia and Libya, and now she's right back here in the United States at the State Department. So awesome to have you back here, Cheryl. These people all work for the State Department. They're all with the embassies, and they were all with me other than, of course, with Cheryl when I did this by Zoom. I also did one for the country of Nigeria by Zoom, but with everyone else, I was there for a week. And I'm going to tell you, if it weren't for them, I wouldn't have been able to spread all this news. So I think they are all awesome. And Yoshiko Dart, I never forget you on a show. Yoshiko, special shout out to you. And you know what, I have to thank my sponsor, Highmark. They've been the lead sponsor for years, and this company is just so awesome about employing people with disabilities. So thank you so much, Highmark, for being the sponsor of this show. Now I have to tell you listeners something, okay? I couldn't wait for this show today. Could not wait, could not wait because I have— ready, ready, Cheryl? Harvard graduate, social epidemiologist, doctor, and guess what? Now the head of the Ubuntu Center. I am so proud. To know Sheryl Barber. She is known internationally and she is a true civil rights leader. It's just so exciting to have you, Dr. Sheryl Barber. What an honor to have you with us today. I just love you. I just admire you so much. But you know what, we have— as you just heard, listeners around the world. And this is Dr. Cheryl Barber. Why don't you share with them a little bit about you, like where you grew up and, you know, then you went on with your education, and then, you know, what caused you to be this great pioneer, not just in social epidemiology, but health, healthcare, Disparity, all these things you're doing. What led you to do that? But let's start from the beginning.

Yeah, wow. So, Joyce Bender, you always hype me up in ways that I'm always humbled by, and I'm grateful for our connection that happened during this pandemic and that we continue to be connected. And, but again, just so humbled by all of those accolades. And appreciative to be able to share virtual space or radio wave space with you today.

They are not accolades, they are facts. Facts, facts.

Go ahead. Okay. We will go with facts. So I wrestled with how I wanted to introduce myself, and what I figured I would do is say kind of tell a little bit about my origin story. And so what I say often in audiences is that I am a daughter and a product of the South. I grew up in eastern North Carolina, and I am very much connected to the legacy of powerful Black women in particular, really beginning with my great-grandmother, Letta St. Keith, who was a force to be reckoned with in her community. I am also, I feel very much connected to the many Black women warriors of the South, Folks like Fannie Lou Hamer, Ella Baker, Ida B. Wells, and so many others upon whose shoulders I stand. I am here today because of their work, their fight, what they did in the face of so much danger, but did it so courageously. And they did it because it needed to be done, right? And so that legacy is a part of who I am. Keeps me grounded and also keeps me bold and courageous as well. A little bit about my educational background. I am also a really proud Bennett Belle. I do not know if any of your listeners know about Bennett College for Women in Greensboro, North Carolina, but it is one of two historically Black colleges for women founded in 1873 in the basement of a church. By formerly enslaved individuals. And really Bennett is where, you know, as a woman, as a young woman, I began to find my way, where I was challenged to not only think about my career and what I wanted to do, what my job was, but also my purpose. And where I saw the very first examples of what it meant to be both a scholar, someone who interrogates the world around them, thinks critically, but also an activist. And that those two worlds and two parts of who I am and who I am growing and continuing to grow into don't have to be separated. And so at Bennett, we learned early on that in the 1940s, there were Bennett women who were marching and boycotting the unequal accommodations in public spaces in downtown Greensboro, that were Bennett women who were instrumental in the 1960s sit-in movement A lot of folks remember the quote-unquote ANT Four, four young Black men from A&T who were at the sit-in encounters. But the pre-meetings to planning that happened on Bennett's campus, and Bennett women were very much a part of that and planning to be a part of that first sit-in that happened. And so that is a part of the legacy. We also at Bennett had a former SGA president Sandy Smith, who was an organizer and activist who worked with workers' rights in Greensboro, North Carolina, who stood up very courageously against the Ku Klux Klan in the city, who in fact was tragically assassinated during the 1979 Greensboro Massacre. And so I bring all of this history and context up because that is really what has shaped me as both a Black woman, as someone who strives to be— have an impact in the world and really challenges these systems and structures that cause the poor health that we see, particularly in Black communities and in Black communities in the South. And so, the frame in which I come and the kind of context that I bring into my work is one that is informed by all of these things. This context that is the US, the United States, this history and legacy of systemic and structural racism that has shaped the lives and livelihoods and so many other things for Black people in this country. And then there's data, because I'm an epidemiologist. There's also data that informs my interest in this work. And so, for example, Black people in the South have higher rates of just about every leading cause of death. Particularly when it comes to chronic illness, and a lot of my work has been focused on things like heart disease and diabetes and hypertension in the South. But if you look nationally, Black people in the United States die at higher rates on 9 of the 15 leading causes of death. They also die not only at higher rates, but at younger ages, and this is, again, a pattern that we've since data on mortality has been collected nationally. And then another piece of data that drives my work is the fact that when we look at segregated Black communities across the country, we find places where the life expectancy differences between communities that are merely less than 10 miles apart being upwards of 20 years in some cities. So in Philadelphia, where I'm currently living, you know, we have Black communities that have, you know, life expectancies in the '60s, and just up the road you have white wealthy communities where that life expectancy is well into the '80s, right? And so these large health inequities over relatively short distances that cannot be explained just by people's behavior or— and even access to care, but all of the kind of conditions that shape and form health. And so that piece of data, the history, you know, struggle, as well as the fact that, you know, I recognize that Black people are more than the sum of the harm that has been done to us. And so it's also the powerful legacy of activism locally, nationally, and globally that where we have alongside of all of justice-oriented individuals, challenge these systems and structures that prevent our communities from really thriving. And so, in the last couple of years, I have described that as recognizing both the pain that we have endured because of these legacies of racism and other forms of oppression, but also the immense power that we have also wielded in the face of these, these systems and structures, and how that informs why we have these higher rates and worse health outcomes, and especially here, as we've seen with COVID but also how we can then leverage that power that we've always had to really transform our communities, our states, our nation, and our world. So that's me in a nutshell. I know that was a lot. But that's me, and that's the work that I do, and that's— You know, as a social epidemiologist, ultimately I'm bridging my passion for science and my passion for social justice, you know, to really try to make a mark and an impact in the world.

That's a question I had. So you— when you went to high school and, you know, Bennett, did you always have this interest in science? I mean, how did that happen? Yeah.

Well, very good. No. So I was always— I love— growing up, I loved science and I loved I loved. And at 5, I declared I was going to be a doctor, and actually a doctor and a preacher. I don't often say that in public, but that's what I said when I was 5. And then— but the doctor thing was always a medical doctor. And so it was at Bennett, at Bennett, as a rising junior, I was told about a program at Harvard. It was a summer program in biostatistics, and a friend of mine previous to the summer that I went, she had gone. She was like, "Oh, you have to do this." And I was like, "What is it about?" She was like, "Public health." I was like, "What is public health?" And so, anyway, but I went because it was health, right? And I was all— I've always been interested in health. And like I said, had this vision of me just going to medical school, finishing medical school, and being a physician. But when I went to this program at Harvard, I was introduced to this, one, a research project where researchers were literally looking at things like discrimination and then how that affected our biology, right? So, like, they looked they had these measures of discrimination and people's experiences of discrimination, and then how that then impacted a biomarker, interleukin-6, which is on the stress pathway. And I was like, "Ooh, wow, this is really powerful." You can think about these big, broad, social, structural things and then see how it actually changes your biology. And then I was like, "Wow, that must have an impact on why we're seeing these higher rates for so many different health outcomes for Black folks." So that happened. And then reading in a paper from 1914 called The Negro Health Problem, where most of the rationale for these higher rates of disease for Blacks in the early part of the 20th century were explanations that blamed them for their conditions. So they were, you know, it was their behaviors or what they weren't doing. And I was like, what about the fact that they, you know, there was slavery that happened less than 50 years ago and all these other harms harm that had been caused. Like, why aren't we taking that into account when having these explanations about folks' health? And that was in the— this is a paper written by a white physician in 1914. Fast forward, and when I was looking around at the discourse about health, it was still this blaming the victim or blaming Black people for their health conditions as opposed to the broader systems and structures that shape opportunity, that shape even our choices in food to eat and things like that. And so I was like, the narrative is still the same. And we— I— so when I— so doing this program, like, just like a light bulb went off. And then I then pursued kind of further training at UNC for my master's, and then completed my doctoral work at Harvard in social epidemiology, where I continued to refine my understanding of like, what are the contextual or the structural drivers of health inequities, particularly for Black people. And then since then, have expanded that not only to Black people in the United States, but also in Brazil. And so, it's been a journey. It's been a journey of discovery. It's been a journey of, you know, investigation. One of my favorite people to quote on why research is so important is Zora Neale Hurston. She says, "It's poking and prodding with a purpose." And I've been poking and prodding with these questions about racial health inequities and why, and going deeper and deeper into those root root causes of disease for Black folks and for other marginalized racial groups in this country.

You know, I have a question for you. When they— and racism, this arrogance of, "Oh, it's their fault." You know, it's them. They're causing this to themselves. But one of my questions is, with this healthcare disparity, and you know, you mentioned all those diseases, higher proportion, I'll bet it's a myriad of things, right? It's not having access to the world of Whole Foods, obviously. I don't mean just them, but any place where there's good produce, you know, any— anywhere where you can get food like that. And even the restaurants in the area, you know, being all fast food. But is it like— and not being able to get access to doctors. What is it?

Is that true?

Is it like a whole myriad of things that cause this?

Absolutely. No, that's exactly right, right? So it's, it's this combination of compounded effects, right, of— and it's concentrated within certain communities, right? So part of the work that I've done, I've gone— I drive through Philadelphia all the time, and just, you see it change. You see the landscape change, whether it's the housing conditions, whether it's the access to certain kinds of foods, whether it's all these things. And that's a byproduct of disinvestment within these communities, not valuing the residents in these communities, and really denying you know, so many different opportunities, et cetera, for so many decades in our communities. And then on top of that, the limited access to healthcare, whether it's due to lack of health insurance or literal access in terms of being able to get to a doctor for all these things. So the people that we harm the most through all these systems and structures and lack of, you know, all these things that we need to live, then those same people don't get the best quality healthcare. And what I'll say is, since we're still in the middle of this pandemic, that's exactly what we've seen in this pandemic and why we've seen such glaring inequities, racial inequities, inequities related to poverty and other things, and why in this moment racism as a public health crisis has has emerged as a part of now the public health discourse, and how we have to really grapple with the complexity of what shapes people's health, and why certain groups of people have these kind of glaring health inequities across all these different health outcomes. It's not a— like one of my professors used to say, it's not a bad draw of luck or it is not a part of the quote-unquote genetic lottery or biological determinism. It really are— they really are these social and structural determinants shaped by racism and other forms of oppression in this country that really lead to this, right? So it is complex, and that is what makes it so, I think, you know, both it is important to understand and do this work. It is also intellectually, you know, it is a— These are issues that, you know, allow me to think deeper and critically, and not only by myself, but with really brilliant collaborators in this work who are really trying to grapple with these issues. And not only just for the sake of, you know, showing the data, but then what do we do with that? How do we leverage that data to actually make some type of change?

Yeah, I hope so. Joyce Bender, you know, you have this father that's sort of well-known, Reverend Dr. William Barber. And I have to ask you, I mean, it's like, wow, talk about civil rights, you know, was around you at all times. What was that like as a child growing up with him as your father?

Yeah, no, yeah, I tell folks all the time, I claim him most days. But yes, Reverend Dr. Barber, William Barber, is my father. What I will say, I want to just say this, you know, I— and I do not say this just because I am his daughter, but I really do feel like my father is one of the most brilliant, one of the most courageous, and one of the most compassionate human beings I know. And I have said that publicly to him, so this is not new. But I say that because what I have most admired about the work that he does is that he does it from this deep love of people. He does not like to see people hurting, you know. And that has been something that has been characteristic of him for so long and for so many years. And it is something that, you know, in the work that I do, you know, and the work that, you know, I have, you know, 4 younger siblings, and I think all of us are really trying to find that way of how we bridge both kind of our intellectual gifts and other gifts that we have been given with this deep love of people in different ways. And so both he and my mother challenged us to really use whatever we have been given, our gifts, to make the world a better place. And we are all— each of us are trying to do that in different ways. It also— so also growing up, we were— I often tell folks, you know, everyone knows him and knows like the moral the Poor People's Campaign and all of that work. But his work and activism builds on decades' worth of work that started when he was in high school and into college. I also remember that he often took us along on doing this work. So sometimes we were the only ones at the press conferences growing up. He took us into meetings with decision makers, and people were probably like, "Well, why is this kid here?" And it was like he wanted us to be there. He wanted to show us early that you never let anybody intimidate you. You are just as important and valuable as they are. And folks who hold an office, that doesn't make them any better than you. And that means you can engage with them, challenge them when they are not doing what is right for the people, right? And so that kind of that being there, seeing it. Seeing that has just had a profound impact on me and the work that I'm engaged in. And I'm just really, really proud to really just to be his daughter, but also to see him do the really necessary and powerful work that he's doing in this moment, and knowing that it just— it's part of who he is and what he's been doing for so many, so many decades.

Yes, he is a great man. I'll never forget when I was on that first— we were on a call with friends, uh, and, and Sherelle's father is on the call, and the— our friend Sam said to me, Joyce, would you like to go first? I said, absolutely not, I defer to Reverend Dr. William Barber. I mean, I just think so highly of him. He is changing the world. And he did a good job, Sherelle, with his daughter. He did a great job. So, Dr. Sherelle Barber, you have a great position at the Ubuntu Center. So let's talk about it. What is it? When was it launched? Why was it launched? Why is it called Ubuntu? And then when we're done, I just want to, if you don't mind giving the website in case a person could make a donation. So let's start first, tell us about the Ubuntu Center.

Absolutely. So website is ubuntucenter.org. You'll find more information about our mission and our vision there. We actually also a couple of weeks ago just released our grounding document, which really talks about our process, the moment, our process, and the approach. To developing the Center. But I will give a little bit of background. So now, gosh, about 2 years ago, I cannot believe how much time flies, you know, we, you know, collectively we were experiencing the global uprisings and protests in response to the murder of George Floyd at the hands of a Minneap— Minneapolis police officer. And for better or for worse, that horrendous and horrific and tragic incident just continued to remind us of, again, the deep-seated racism that exists within our country that manifests in that— it manifested in that very violent way, but it manifests in so many different ways, as I have talked about earlier. And so, you know, in 2020, I think we were— so we have this incident that is instance that is not, you know, an anomaly. We also have a global pandemic that is, you know, the data was showing that it was disproportionately impacting Black and Latinx and Indigenous populations. And really, the juxtaposition of these two things caused a lot of folks to kind of have a light bulb go off around something that many of us in the field, or a lot of us, my colleagues in the field that I collaborate with, had already known that racism racism is deadly, right? That racism in its various and interconnected forms has deadly consequences. And that kind of led, you know, in many ways to folks seeing racism as a public health crisis. And we can talk about what that means, but— and why, you know, it should have been always, you know, kind of at the forefront of how we were thinking about it. And just to give you some ideas about before the pandemic, about 20 jurisdictions that like either states or local health departments or local cities had declared racism a public health crisis or problem or threat. But by the end of last year, over 200 jurisdictions around the country, and that's at the state and the local— at local levels, had declared racism a public health crisis. So, we're seeing this uptick of people recognizing racism is shaping health particularly for Black folks and other people of color and communities of color. And then— and students at our school, at the Drexel Dornsife School of Public Health, you know, in many of the meetings and town hall meetings that followed this incident were like, "We need a center. We want to have a space where we can really dig into what that means and do both the research as well as the action that is necessary to address this, you know, really major public health problem, right? And so, in the summer and into the fall of 2020, I was tasked by the dean at my school, the Dornsife School of Public Health, Dean Ana Diaz-Roux, to lead the planning of a center that would be focused on this particular subject, this area. And over about a 6-month planning period, we began to be very intentional. And the 2 central questions we asked were, what was what was necessary because of the pain that we were— we experienced because of racism, and what's possible because of the power that we see also embedded, especially within movements and in activism and in organizing. And those two central questions helped to guide how we would be very intentional in meeting the magnitude of this moment with a center that had a bold and audacious vision. And that vision is just simply a future free of systems of oppression, full of new possibilities through bold collective action, and an equitable world in which all individuals and communities are healthy and thriving. And our mission is really to unite a diverse set of partners to generate the necessary evidence we need to accelerate anti-racism solutions, and to promote the health and well-being of communities locally, nationally, and globally. And that's bold. And it's a lot. But we said this moment, especially with what we've seen and what we're continuing to see, needs nothing less than that kind of bold mission. And since the planning process ended, we were— got a generous philanthropic multimillion-dollar gift from Dana and David Thornseife. We have recruited two new faculty who also happen to graduate from Harvard who will be joining us in the fall. We have brought on movement fellows and strategic council members who are both represented locally, nationally, as well as globally, mostly in Brazil. And we are just continuing to kind of lean into the fact that this moment requires us to bring diverse perspectives together to understand these root causes and the historical legacies of racism, not only here in this country, but around the world. And also, what is the work that needs to be done to actually act, right? So, not just research for research's sake, but research that can really be community-driven and movement-informed and leverage for transformative change. And so, that is our work in a nutshell. Again, the Ubuntu Approach document on our website kind of outlines that even and more. And then I will— and then you asked me about the name. So very early on in the process, we developed a set of principles that would guide our work. And one of the— and the student on the planning committee said, you know, we have got to make sure we do not lose sight of the humanity in all of this, because as researchers, sometimes we get caught up in the data and the numbers. But she was like, these are real people. With lived experiences, and we want to make sure that we are human-centered in our approach. And so we kind of sat with that and made sure that that was really our kind of grounding and foundational principle, organizing principle. And then as we were going along, the idea of Ubuntu really kind of emerged from the process and how we were doing the work. And Ubuntu is a South South African principle that literally means "I am because we are." And it really gets at the depths of our interconnected humanity, and that the work that we are doing to combat these structures and systems really is work that combats structures and systems that have attempted to deny certain groups of their humanity. And that is not right, right? But fundamentally what we are saying is we need to be, as, you know, at the center as we do this work, really focused on restoring kind of that deepest sense of interconnectedness between everyone, right? And that these systems of oppression try to deny us of that. And so Ubuntu emerged from that, and it is also inspired by work that I have done in Brazil, and work done by Brazilian activists African-Brazilian activist and politician Marielle Franco, who was assassinated in 2018, her campaign slogan when she ran for a local city council in Rio de Janeiro was Ubuntu, or I am because we are, in Portuguese, eu sou porque nós somos. And so her life and legacy is also very much entwined in how we were thinking about building out the center and how we do this work, take a collective approach and a human-centered approach to doing this work in this moment. So I know I have said a mouthful. You may have some questions, but that is the work. That is what we have been engaged in. It has been so powerful. It has been inspiring to, you know, just by choosing to be and show up in this way, people are inspired by the work that we are doing, and the work we will continue to do, you know, as we build things out over the coming years. But we are We're super excited to have birthed this center in the midst of all that's going on in our world, and we hope that it is really a testament of our way of honoring the dead, our way of honoring ancestors, and our way of being good ancestors. And what I mean by that is future generations who come after this moment will ask all of What did you do? What did you do when everything around us seemed to be falling apart? Did you stand in the gap for justice, for equity, for real liberation? Did you stand on the sidelines, or did you try to do something to make sure that my generation, our generations, actually had a possible future? And that is really what we are trying to do with the work we are doing at the Ubuntu Center.

That is so awesome. How someone listening or a company, how do they make a donation, Sherrell, to the Ubuntu Center?

So there is on our website there at the bottom, if you scroll down to the bottom, there is a button that says Invest Now, and that'll take you straight to the Drexel University website, and there's a— you can choose the Ubuntu Center if you want to make a gift or make a donation or invest in the work.

Oh, okay. Well, hey everyone, get out that checkbook or credit card. I mean, you know, you can't be saying, wow, this is so great, but to do those things you need money. So, and I am behind this 100%. I mean, Sherelle, I cannot wait to visit the Ubuntu Center. I cannot wait.

Excited.

Well, listen, we gotta take a quick news break and then we're gonna be right back with Dr. Sherrell Barber. Perry, are you on?

Thanks for having me.

Of course, Perry. Perry Jude Radesik, how are you today?

I'm fine and I have some great news. One of the most critical issues facing our community, our disability community, is the accessible, affordable, and reliable transportation. We have a history in most places in the United States of inequitable transportation, and this is due to the lack of accessibility, the lack of affordability, reliability, and the lack of availability to transportation.

So, the—

to find solutions to increase equity in transportation, The U.S. Department of Transportation has reestablished the Advisory Committee on Transportation Equity. Now, this advisory committee is going to provide independent advice and recommendations to the Secretary of Transportation regarding civil rights and transportation equity. We all know the Secretary of Transportation is Pete Katie Budicek. Now, the Advisory Committee on Transportation Equity was first established in 2016. This committee is expected to meet quarterly over the next 2 years and will include up to 25 members pulling from academia, the business community, community-based organizations, government, disability, and veterans organizations. The Biden Administration has made diversity, equity, and inclusion a priority, and this advisory committee reflects the U.S. Department of Transportation's strategic direction to carry out the President's diversity, equity, and inclusion plans. We all know advocacy matters. So, if you are interested in serving on the advisory committee, The U.S. Department of Transportation is asking you to submit a statement of interest, which is like a cover letter, and a resume by Wednesday, June 15th. So, that's just next week. At disabilityrightsPA.org, we have lots more information on the advisory committee and the application process if you're interested. So, go to disabilityrightsPA.org and click on today's Advocacy Matters segment on the homepage. You can find out all about the advisory committee and how to apply.

Wow, that is so exciting. We're finally getting somewhere. Slow as it may be, we're finally getting somewhere. Perry, thank you once again for that update because you're keeping us on target. DisabilityRightsPA.org. Thank you so— DisabilityRightsPA.org.

Thank you so much.

Thank you. So many things we're working on there, Dr. Barber. So many things. I do have to ask you, um, a couple questions. First question about Buffalo and the brutal shooting of children in Texas. But let's start with Buffalo. Do you think this gun control, uh, and everything going on with guns has a strong connection to racism and poverty.

Absolutely. And I mean, the first thing I guess I'll do is just sit with, you know, just the tragedy of it all. You know, that was elderly, mostly elderly folks, just in the Black— in a Black community that was targeted very intentionally by this white supremacist And that, you know, I reflected on Twitter that, you know, this person used data, you know, to really exact harm. And so, as you know, I kind of alluded to it, this combination of the laws that need to be passed to restrict the access to guns and these kinds of things, and the deep-seated racism that just permeates so much of the fabric of our country, and that our country really, if we're really honest with ourselves, has been built on and is sustained in many ways by violence on so many different levels, right? And so what happened in Buffalo is tragic, but it's not apart from this larger narrative of racism and white supremacy in this country that has to be addressed. Along with gun laws to prevent people from having these kinds of weapons that can cause so much harm and so much pain and so much tragedy. So, you know, it was so hard to sit with the emotions of it all. It's rage. It's rage. It's— It's sadness. It's, you know, so many different things come up when having to, again, experience another traumatizing and deadly reminder of racism in our country. And so, my prayers go out, because it's not even been a month, to the families in that community. Prayers go out to that community. Just itself, and who are probably still reeling even though kind of the cameras are no longer there. And just hoping that we just find a way, you know, to move, to just do something. You know, I'm just tired of like, "Oh, this other, you know, this mass shooting happened, this mass sh—" You know, just, it's frustrating. It's similarly with the, these the children and teachers in Texas, right? Like, so tragic. And what's even— yes, the guns and the person who did the murdering, but also finding out the inaction of the police officers, you know? And that these kids were calling 911 for help and people didn't act in a way to prevent some of this stuff. So there's, again, a complicated web of things that are very much rooted in racism and poverty and so many other systemic issues that have to be addressed simultaneously if we really are going to get to the root causes of these issues. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I can't help it.

I'm always thinking, so what would happen if this was like a— in a suburban, a white school, white kids, what would happen? How would all these things be different? Or, right, if at the supermarket, uh, an African-American went in with the gun, would he be walked out?

Right, right. Yeah.

So, I mean, I've got to tell you, we've got, we've got, you know, love your neighbor as yourself is morality. We really, you know, have to follow your father and, you know, his preachings in this area. But we, we also have to be honest and authentic and look at things the way they are. And, you know, my— I am with you with those families. You know, Reverend Al Sharpton, I heard him say, remember, see how this is on the news right now? Just like that shooting in Buffalo. It'll be gone, we'll move on, but those families are still there. They're still there. Absolutely. Through all this, uh, and what is terrible about this is that we're getting to the place where we say, oh, it's another shooting. You know, that's how— like, as if we're getting so used to this. Oh, there's another mass call— people call you, did you know there was another shooting? You know, whereas when I grew up it would have been, oh my God, you know, oh, look what happened. But it isn't, you know, it's still terrible, but it's so often now. It's really sad. It is. Yeah. Well, in case I have to move on to something, I mean, you all don't know this, but I have my own personal doctor when it comes to COVID. And that's Dr. Sherrell Barber, who I am— hi, Sherrell, what do you think about this? But you know, COVID definitely impacted, as you mentioned, to a large percentage, the Black community and the disabled community. There's this intersectionality. Exactly. Be African American and have a disability. I mean, there's all this intersectionality that, that occur—

that happens. Absolutely.

But as you and I frequently talk about this, when you go to stores or you go outside or you go shopping, it's almost like, yay, it's gone. No mask, no social distancing. Not for all people, but the majority. I mean, most stores you go in, you're lucky enough you see one mask on someone. I remember when you said to me, "Oh no, Joyce, if you go to this event, wear a mask even though everyone will be staring at you like, you know, you're off the deep end." And, you know, people even say to me, "You're vaccinated, you can see now this is ending." But Dr.

Cheryl Barber, is COVID gone? No, it's not, and the data shows it. It's actually not gone, and unfortunately, we're seeing another surge in our cases, which, you know, unfortunately, in the past, what the pattern has been, there'll be a surge in cases, and then very shortly after, within 2 weeks or so, we'll begin to see the rise in hospitalizations and deaths. It's been so far. We have conversations all the time. And I think our push, for me, when we reached 1 million deaths not too long ago, actually when we reached 900,000 deaths back in February, I posted something that said our acceptance of mass death is inhumane. And really what we're dealing with right now is this because folks want to kind of— decision makers at every level want to push to normal, but it's just not the case. And we have gotten rid of every, you know, besides vaccines, every mitigation strategy that would prevent the kinds of deaths that we've seen that, again, as you know, that has been disproportionate for Black, Indigenous, Latinx, poor folks, folks with disabilities, and it's also causing complications. When we look at things like Long COVID, 1 in 5 adults who have had COVID will develop some symptom or some form of Long COVID, whether that's issues with CVD conditions, respiratory conditions, neurological conditions. We're seeing kind of the long-term disability that the pandemic is actually causing, and no one's talking about that, right? So, I, you know, so people say, "Oh, you're vaccinated." Yes, vaccinations help against severe disease and death, but, you know, we're not talking about folks who have mild cases, sometimes not, you know, non-symptomatic cases, but still have these long-term consequences that we're living with. And so, I think it has been frustrating, to say the least, that our decision makers have not put together a comprehensive, multilayered, multifaceted approach to prevention in the face of this pandemic.

Well, I saw that CDC did recommend that when you're inside, you know, to wear masks in public places, but that must, like, I don't know.

People aren't listening. Yes, a recommendation, and then they took away, you know, the judge that basically nullified the mandate to wear on planes and other forms of public transportation. I mean, it's just, It blows my mind every time I think about the ways we have just dismantled public health. Public health is about the prevention of the— it's about health, but at the public level. We very much individualized this pandemic to kind of say, "You're in it on your own. You make your own decisions." That's just not public health. Again, if we're also concerned about equity, particularly for those who've been most harmed and before the pandemic had all these these health inequities, it's definitely not an equity approach, right? And so, it's been challenging, but I don't— there's no signs that we're going to change course, unfortunately, in our approach to what's happening. So, I continue to give folks close to me the recommendations, but again, this should really be a public health approach to prevention in this in this situation.

Yeah, I have a question. I mean, could this just linger on? I mean, what's going to— when is this— I guess it's never going to go away. It's, I guess, just going to be like—

go ahead. I mean, I think we're— the scientists who are really kind of the infectious disease epidemiologists are still learning. We're still trying to understand and unpack you know, how this is going to operate. Right now, I don't, you know, I don't see any signs of it, you know, going into what folks were calling the endemic stage. We're still very much, if we're seeing kind of cases continue to kind of go up and down and up and down. So, you know, I don't have a good answer to that, and I'll have to look at the literature. You know, I always say, well, let me check the literature first, but, you know, I don't have a good answer to that based on what I've seen over the past few weeks of if we know when it's going to when it will quote unquote end. But I do know that we, especially as we're going into these next phases, we need to be doing things that protect people at so many different levels. And I want to swing back around to the Poor People's Campaign work, because I think when the pandemic started, it was the Poor People's Campaign that really was one of the first voices saying like, "We need to protect poor folks and workers." And we've dubbed folks essential, but are not giving them the essential things they need to live. Like living wages and worker protections and things like that, paid sick leave, all those things. And so, you know, we need the healthcare and the public health infrastructure to prevent disease. But if we're really going to get at these root causes, like systemic poverty and systemic racism, we need movements like the Poor People's Campaign that are advocating and really demanding that everybody— one of their mantras is, "Everybody has a right to live." Right? And that is just true. And so, what does that mean to live in a society where we really believe that everybody has a right to live? And so, that's why I'll be in Washington, D.C. on June 18th. Yep. June 18th? June 18th, Washington, D.C., the Moral March, the Poor People's Campaign Moral March. OK. And mass assembly. If folks want to know more about that, ppc.org/june18th. But it is— is going to be one of the largest gatherings of poor, low-wealth individuals to really demand that the 140 million poor and low-wealth people deserve the right to live and to thrive, just like everyone else. I'm really excited to be joining with the Poor People's Campaign and so many other organizers around the country to be a part of this.

Thank you. June 18th. Okay. Watching that, and it is so wonderful. You are just wonderful. Thank you so much for being with me today, Dr. Cheryl Barber. Thank you very much, Joyce Bender. Director of the Ubuntu Center on Racism, Global Movements, and Population Health Equity, and just a great person. And we end every show with a quote, so I love today's quote. Get ready for today's quote, everyone. What many of us in the field of public health have known for many, many years, that racism is a public health crisis, said Dr. Cheryl Barber. This is Joyce Bender, America's Voice, where disability matters, at voiceamerica.com. Talk to you next week, and in the words of Mary Brooker, remember, choose joy.

Voice America would like to thank you for tuning in. Please join us next Tuesday at 11 AM Pacific time and 2 PM Eastern time for another installment of Disability Matters right here on the Voice America Variety Channel. We are the leader in live internet Talk Radio. VoiceAmerica.com.