Taryn Mackenzie Williams: Shaping Disability Employment Policy

Welcome to Disability Matters with your host Joyce Bender. All comments, views, and opinions expressed on the show are solely those of the host, guest, and callers. Now the host of Disability Matters, here's Joyce Bender.

Hey everyone, welcome to the show. I hope you're all having a great day. Everyone in the Americas, and around the world. So speaking of around the world, I gotta thank our listeners from China, Russia, Australia, Finland, uh, over 18 countries now with listeners to the show. You know what I always say? I say even if you are one person, one person in a country such as Saudi Arabia listening to the show, you can make the difference. What you all have to do is go to the embassy and let them know you want to know resources or ways you can find English-speaking people that listen to the show. People with disabilities have such low esteem in many of these countries because of how they're treated. So not to me, to me, you're all amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much. Hey, Richard Roberts in Brazil, a special shout out to you. My friend with the State Department who I was with in South Korea and Japan, Richard, love you. Keep fighting the fight. And Gangyong Cho in South Korea, another great disability rights leader. But I have friends from Indonesia to Panama to Kazakhstan, all, all of the countries that I have visited with the State Department. And again, United States, Wow, I have great listeners. 21 years I've been on the air, 21, and without you it would never happen. So thank you so much. And here it comes, here it comes, my shout out to Yoshiko. Hey Yoshiko Dart, special shout out to you. Now if you know, if you're a follower of mine, that every show for years, and I mean from before the pandemic, I have a shout out to Yoshiko, and I always tell you why. Number one, I love her. She's a wonderful friend, a great leader, and also I don't want you to forget Justin Dart, the late, great Justin Dart. I get upset, and I'll be talking in a minute to our esteemed guest today, the Assistant Secretary from the Office of Disability Employment Policy, Assistant Secretary Taryn Williams. But, you know, in history today, if you would interview people, you're at a mall, you're interviewing people, "Hey, who's Justin Dart?" Wow. They're not going to know. The majority of people won't know why we don't do enough with our education in schools for disability history. So I'm going to remind you of that on every show. And I know what you're saying right now. I know, Yoshiko. Lead on. I know. And you lead on also. And then a special thanks to our sponsor, HiMark, who has been the lead sponsor for years. Uh, the CEO David Holmberg and the COO Karen Hanlon. And keep in mind, they— over 40,000 employees are just awesome when it comes to supporting me and the disability community. But I know you don't want to hear me because we have such a famous guest today. You want to hear the Assistant Secretary from the Office of Disability Employment Policy, Assistant Secretary Taryn Williams. Welcome to the show. It is such an honor to have you on the show today. And, you know, and I mean it, it's an honor to have an Assistant Secretary on the show today. And so you all know she is a presidential appointee. That is how she has this position. Um, but I get a lot of calls, emails from around the world saying, wow, your guest was great, but I want to know more about your guest. So would you mind sharing a little bit about your story, like where you grew up? Tell us about your family and school. Uh, could you share that with our listeners so they know more about you?

Absolutely. And thank you so much, Joyce Bender. Congratulations on, on 21 years of radio, but also decades of education and advocacy for people with disabilities all around the world. I have so much respect for, for the work that you do. And so it's also a privilege for me to be here today. In terms of my story, I grew up in California. I grew up in Northern California, so Sacramento, with my mom, who is an amazing advocate. She was an advocate for me all throughout grade school into high school. She's someone who, because of our close relationship— I'm an only child— she encouraged me to, to go away to school, and so kind of shipped me off across the country to New England to go to college. But even though I was maybe 3,000 miles away, we remained very, very close up until today. And so when people ask, I say, I'm a California. I, I grew up in Northern California. My My family, everyone, is in Southern California, so oftentimes when I go home, I'm going home to Los Angeles to, to visit friends. But since I went off to school, I haven't gone back. I've now lived on the East Coast for, I think, 2 decades, so I consider Washington my home now. It's where I live with my husband, right in the middle of the city, and I love I love this place that I call home.

I love Washington, D.C. also. I always say, if it weren't for Pittsburgh, because I am a hardcore Pittsburgher, I love Pittsburgh. Second choice would be Washington, D.C. I love that city, and it's just like everything is at that epicenter. It's so awesome. So thank goodness that you realized the East Coast is better.

I don't know if I would go that far. I love D.C., but I'm still a Californian at heart, and I will be remiss if I didn't say I love Pittsburgh too. My in-laws are in Columbus, Ohio, and so often when we make the drive to go see them, we'll go through Pittsburgh, or we'll go through that area just because it's such a beautiful city. So, shout out to Pittsburgh as I'm making my way into Ohio.

Well, now the next time, you know, you have to visit. I understand. Consulting services. We would love to have you here. Well, we are celebrating National Disability Employment Awareness Month, which, by the way, if you don't know, that all is run by the Assistant Secretary at the Office of Disability Employment Policy. And wow. What a powerful way to end this month. What a powerhouse to have you on the show. But before I asked you about how you became an appointee at ODEP, I did want to ask you why— what made you decide to be in advocacy?

Oh yeah, that's a, that's a great question, and it really starts with what I was sharing earlier. I am someone who grew up with, with what I would often call chronic condition, with inflammatory bowel disease. It played a significant role in my, in my schooling. There was times when I had to get pulled out of school to get homeschooling. I had multiple surgeries. It was just something that very much impacted my early life and early schooling. It also impacted me as I transitioned into college, and it impacted me when I went on to early employment. In fact, at my very first job after, after school, I went to apply for health insurance at my small nonprofit, and I was denied. I was denied because I had a pre-existing condition. And as I look back at that experience and sort of the mentorship that I got in the years following that experience, I point to that as one of the earliest incidents that really started me on the path to advocacy because that denial really helped me to understand that there were paths that would possibly not be open for me in my employment because I had to put health insurance and benefits and sort of all of the other things that come along with managing one, and in this case two, chronic health conditions while working. So that started me on my path. And when I moved to D.C., I very quickly got to know many of the advocates who make D.C. their home. I just knew them and started working with them 20 years ago, and they remain very, very good friends. And they really are the people I turn to on a regular basis as I continue to advocate in different roles.

Well, I have a lot more to ask you, but we're going to go to a quick break. Um, and when we come back to talk about you being an appointee, uh, thank goodness she became an advocate. Great example for everyone how she went through something difficult and she turned it into something great. This is Joyce Bender, America's Voice Where Disability Matters at voiceamerica.com. Be right back with the Assistant Secretary.

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At Highmark, we believe what makes us different makes us better. Our differences broaden our perspectives and foster diverse skills which complement each other, creating a stronger and more vibrant workforce. It's this belief that earned us recognition by the USBLN and the American Association of People with Disabilities as a 2014 Disability Equality Index Best Place to Work. So we'll continue to celebrate celebrate diverse individuals because inclusion benefits us all. To find out more, visit highmark.com.

Since 1985, Bender Consulting Services has served as a national leader in advancing employment of people with disabilities, including veterans with disabilities, with private sector companies and federal government agencies. Bender assists customers with achieving their diversity and workforce inclusion initiatives by tapping into a talent pool of individuals seeking professional positions, including those in the STEM fields. In addition, Bender Services include disability employment consulting, training, and technology accessibility through their HI-TEST line of service. For more information, please visit www.benderconsult.com.

Everyone has unique abilities, and with ABLE NOW, individuals with disabilities are able to save money while maintaining certain benefits such as Medicaid. ABLE NOW is a tax-advantaged savings program specifically designed for people with disabilities. Open an account online today and start saving for the things that are important to you. To learn if you or someone you know is eligible, visit ablenow.com. ABLE NOW is administered by Virginia529.

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You're listening to Disability Matters. Now please welcome back the host of Disability Matters. Here's Joyce Bender.

Hey everyone, welcome back to the show. We have the esteemed Assistant Secretary of the Office of Disability Employment Policy, Taryn Williams with us today, part of the Department of Labor. In other words, she is a big deal. And she is on with us to support National Disability Employment Awareness Month. And for all our listeners in the United States and around the world, just so you know, not all appointees would be doing this. So that tells you something about her. But Assistant Secretary, you became an appointee. How does that happen? And what was that day like for you?

Yeah, that's a great question. It really is a multi-year— I said multi-year, maybe I'll call it multi-month process, although sort of when you're in the middle of it, it can seem like time is moving at a different pace. You get the, the call that you're being nominated, and then there's a lot of background that they do getting to know you, and then you get a call that your nomination is officially going to become public and that you're going to start the, the very public part of that process. And I remember that day so well. Earlier I was talking about being with my mom and how close we are, my growing up in Sacramento. And it was actually April of 2021, and I had just flown back to Sacramento to see my mom, who I hadn't seen since Christmas of 2019, right before the start of the academic— the pandemic. And we were going to get coffee And I got this call from someone in the White House and they said, "We're going to make this public. You're going to be nominated." And at that moment, and really for months after, it was still really challenging to think of myself in this role. I mean, it's such a privilege to work and lead on behalf of the community every day. And so every day I feel the responsibility and the obligation to advance policies and practices that will increase employment. So it was just a very special moment that I think about quite often.

Oh, that is— I'm sure you'll never forget that ever. And while we're on this topic, Joyce Bender, would you mind explaining to our listeners the purpose of the Office of Disability Employment Policy?

Absolutely. And I should note that I have a lot of love for ODEP. One of the things about getting nominated and then confirmed by the Senate that meant so much to me is that I was coming back to the agency. I got my start here as a policy advisor focused on youth issues in 2009. And so I worked with the agency, I worked alongside many of the talented subject matter experts who are here today, and sort of came in knowing what an honor it would be and knowing what was possible. And ODEP as an agency was created a little more than 20 years ago by Congress with a particular focus of working across policies, across programs, across agencies with that explicit goal of increasing employment for people with disabilities. We often will talk about As a non-enforcement agency, we both want to increase the number of people with disabilities who are employed, but also the quality of those employment opportunities. We want people with disabilities to have access to, to good jobs, the jobs that they want, and the jobs that allow them to thrive in, in their communities. And we do that in a number of ways. We work with all levels of government, federal, state, and local. We work with private sector and public sector employers. And we work across all of the issues that, you know, we all know intersect with disability employment, like accessible technology, like education and training, Transportation. There's so many things. Benefits. There's so many things that have an impact on employment, and we have subject matter experts in this agency who work on a number of those issues. Wow.

Yeah, I know you do a lot. And so everyone knows when a corporation or agency wants to you go to someone that does policy and employment and is with the federal government, they always go to ODEP. They always talk about ODEP. And what a great organization. I know I go look at a lot of your programs. So, what is that website?

Oh, yeah, that is a good question. If you want to learn more about our work, You want to go to dol.gov, and then you can go to ODEP, the slash ODEP. You can find so much of the work that we do. It's organized by our many initiatives, initiatives that focus on competitive integrated employment, our work around accessible technology and artificial intelligence. I say that not as a technologist myself, but someone who understands that it is increasingly something that is impacting us. We, of course, work on the workforce system. So all of those resources, the work that we do with so many different stakeholders, all of that's on our website.

Yeah, and it is a great website. And Assistant Secretary, you do— you have some great programs. What would you say are like the key programs, a couple of the key programs?

Yeah, that, that's a great question, and it's certainly something we get asked a lot. As a— we are a policy office, and I will often say we are a, a policy office at a very small agency with a really big mission. And the way we carry out that mission, like I was sharing before, it's through grants and through contracts, through conducting a lot of research and, and outreach, reaching not only the employers who will bring on people with disabilities but also job seekers and workers with disabilities themselves. And I think one of the ways to best explain it is in thinking about the work that we do with employers and workplace policy. And we have an employer team, and they focus on what are the policies and practices that ensure that your workplace culture is inclusive of people with disabilities? What does it really look like to have the type of workplace where I, as a person with a disability who's being recruited, have opportunities to— to get hired, that I know how to request accommodations, that I see individuals with disabilities represented in the work that they do. We also in that team focus on accommodations. What do we know about best practice in accommodations in the workplace? How do we ensure that employers and employees alike have the information that they need so that they can be successful on the job.

Yes, that, that is a great website, but I want to mention, if you're a company, this is where you could go to get that information about accommodations. So, you know, take advantage of this. It's really a great source of information. So this is your big month, National Disability Employment Awareness Month, and that is why we're so honored to have you on. I know you have like a theme or a message for this, uh, all every year. Uh, what is it? What is your message and what does it mean?

Well, before I talk about the theme, I definitely want to talk about, uh, another resource because I was just talking about accommodations and I will often— and by often I mean at least once or twice a week— get questions about, like, "How do I navigate that process?" And I always answer in the same way. You want to go to AskJAN.org. It's free. It's confidential. You can email. You can phone them. You can get the support that you need either as an employer or an employee as you're navigating accommodations. I say that not just as someone who leads ODEP but also as someone who has used JAN for my own personal accommodations but also as a manager. And to get to your question about our theme, I could say that this is a process that also takes many months. We have an incredible communications and outreach team here. At ODEP, and very early in the year, they'll, they'll start to engage with many of our partners, with employers, with those organizations that represent employers to help better understand what messages and are— and things that are happening that are impacting them and what is on their mind. Because we really want the month to be an opportunity for all of us to hold up policies and practices for people with disabilities. And for this year, we settled on access to good jobs for all. And that is absolutely by design. If you listen to our Acting Secretary Julie Su talk about her vision for workers and really our vision for the country, then it's, it starts with all workers, including workers with disabilities, getting access to those jobs that allow them family-sustaining wages, having access to the benefits that they, they need, having the opportunity to, to live independently in their, their communities. And so we've selected that theme and have used it as an opportunity to really educate policymakers and employers of all kinds and sizes about the untapped talent of people with disabilities and how we can all work together to build pathways for people with disabilities into those good jobs. So everywhere we've been over the last— I'll say earlier I was saying maybe it's been like 6 weeks, of NDEAM, because NDEAM is really every day, every month for us, but certainly in the last several weeks, we've used it as an opportunity to highlight our belief and our commitment to ensuring that people with disabilities have access to good jobs.

And that is what it's all about. Hey everyone, if you just joined, don't worry, the show is on demand. But we are talking to the Assistant Secretary Taryn Williams of the Office of Disability Employment Policy. We're going to our commercial and we'll be right back with the Assistant Secretary. Don't go away.

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Since 1985, Bender Consulting Services has served as a national leader in advancing employment of people with disabilities, including veterans with disabilities, with private sector companies and federal government agencies. Bender assists customers with achieving their diversity and workforce inclusion initiatives by tapping into a talent pool of individuals seeking professional positions, including those in the STEM fields. In addition, Bender services include disability employment consulting, training in technology accessibility, disability through their high-tech line of service. For more information, please visit www.benderconsult.com.

At Highmark, we believe what makes us different makes us better. Our differences broaden our perspectives and foster diverse skills which complement each other, creating a stronger and more vibrant workforce. It's this belief that earned us recognition by the USBLN and the American Association of People with Disabilities. Disabilities as a 2014 Disability Equality Index Best Place to Work. So we'll continue to celebrate diverse individuals because inclusion benefits us all. To find out more, visit Highmark.com. The internet's number one talk station. Number one talk station.

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You're listening to Disability Matters. Now please welcome back the host of Disability Matters. Here's Joyce Bender.

Hey everyone, welcome back to the show. If you are just joining us, we are talking to the Assistant Secretary of the Office of Disability Employment Policy, Taryn Williams. She's a big deal. We got a powerhouse on here today as we are celebrating National Disability Employment Awareness Month, which of course she is in charge of across the United States. Um, and so I want to just mention, if you're listening to the show and you're thinking, oh no, I just joined her, oh no, I wish that I could have told someone else about this, no worries, go tomorrow too. Any social media venue— Spotify, Amazon, Apple, almost every social media venue you can think of, and of course voiceamerica.com— and you can hear the show on demand. So make sure you share that with everyone else that you talk to. So, Assistant Secretary, What do you want to see happen under your leadership by the end of this year?

Oh, that is a big question, and I could probably name many more things than what we have available in the remaining weeks, or I guess a couple months of 2024. I look back on the year and see see significant progress that we made across a number of areas. We've had so many resources that we've developed, and particularly in the last few months been released, and policy papers that we want to continue to see shared and adopted ultimately by policymakers. I'm very proud of work that we've done and data and trying to better understand the experiences of people with disabilities in the workforce. If that is the foundation of the work that we're doing, then there are a couple of things that I would highlight that I want to see happen before 2024. I think we've made significant progress in our work to advance competitive integrated employment for people with disabilities. I want that work to continue. I see key milestones that we have in in front of us to ensure that we're providing all people with disabilities access to environments where they are earning wages commensurate with their work and where they have the opportunity to work alongside people with disabilities. So absolutely, I would talk about some of the work that we have remaining with competitive integrated employment. I'd also like to, to highlight additional work that we're doing. Earlier I talked about our, our partnerships and the role that accessible technology, including artificial intelligence, how that's factoring into our work. And I want to highlight a resource that we just released a little more than a month ago focused on artificial intelligence and hiring. And what I'd like to see in the disability community more broadly is better understanding around the ways in which AI is both promising for our community and our efforts to, to close the employment gap, but also can imperil some of the efforts that we've been engaged in for years. And as someone who doesn't actually understand the way AI fully works. I believe that as a community, we know what it means when something is not built for us. We know what it means when we have to retrofit. We know what it means when we have to remediate technology that is not accessible. And so I want to continue to use our platform here at the Office of Disability Employment Policy to, to educate employers, job seekers, individuals with disabilities about what AI can mean for our community and how we can ensure that it is something that advances our, our collective goals. And I, I see our team doing that, um, every single day. Uh, I probably could name several other things. I'll just name one more, uh, uh, work that is really important to me. I said I got my start back in, in 2009 at ODEP on the youth team. And really my background is in youth policy and the transition of youth and young adults into the workplace. And I am very excited about a demonstration project that we launched earlier this year. It is an opportunity for us to work directly with states to better understand and ultimately implement policies that will get young people with disabilities into the workforce. We all know that the last several years have had a tremendous impact on, frankly, all of us, but perhaps it is young people who have been hurt the most, and particularly those young people who not only have a disability, but those who are more likely to live in poverty, those who may be experiencing homelessness. So I look at that project and our work with states and our efforts to understand and ultimately implement policies that will help systems work together as an opportunity to move the needle so young people transition into jobs. It is something that is really at the core of how I got my start at this work. And it is something that I always come back to, like, we must do better for youth and young adults with disabilities.

Oh, I so agree. I so agree. Because competitive employment is the only way that we can work to end that school-to-prison pipeline. For people with disabilities, maybe a learning disability, maybe like me with epilepsy, and someone, officer comes up to you and you strike out and it's part of your seizure, and the next thing you know, you're in juvenile court. And the way to avoid all of this is employment. And I agree, I so agree with you, Assistant Secretary, that That is so important. Well, what do you think we can do? You know, my big thing is employment.

Yeah, of course.

So that is all Bender Consulting Services. We do other things, but the heart and soul of the company is employment. And you know, I go to your website and I look at those labor statistics and I'm like, you gotta be kidding. I mean, this is the 34th anniversary of the Americans with Disabilities Act. And guess what? Next year is the 30th anniversary of Bender Consulting Services.

Wow.

And I'll look at that and I'll say, how is this possible? What is wrong? So what do you think we can work on or what could we do to see employment equal for all? And one thing, By the way, is what you talked about, sheltered workshops ending, equal pay for everyone, what you were saying earlier, but what else? What else do you think we can do?

Yeah, that's a great question. I think for us, part of the work is in knowing that it starts with our own workplaces. I would point to some of the work that we do as a federal government. The federal government in the US, I think, is almost 1 out of 5 jobs across the country. Don't quote me on that statistic, but I know that we strive to be a model employer. That is ensuring that we're doing as agencies, as departments, does everything to recruit, to hire, to retain, and to advance people with disabilities. And we don't just stop with, with the federal government. We understand that in states and in local communities, oftentimes those are state governments or other agencies that can be model employers of inclusion and who can model what accessibility looks what that looks like at every level. We have an initiative that it's been in existence now for, for more than a decade where we work directly with states, understanding that change happens in a number of different ways, and we want to work on the federal level, but we also want to affect change in states and in local communities. And our SEED initiative, our State Exchange on Employment and Disability, is always working with policymakers to provide them the tools and the technical assistance to, to advance policies that will open up the workplaces for people with disabilities. Joyce Bender, I think you and I both know that while we've seen some narrowing in that gap that exists between people with and without disabilities in the workforce, that a gap still exists, and it exists in part because of the attitudinal barriers that individuals have. I sometimes refer to it as a sort of a lack of imagination about what we can do as a community in any job if afforded the, the opportunity. So to anyone out there, as they're thinking about how do we advance employment, I would say think about your workplaces, think about the communities in which you, in which you live, think about all of those opportunities to highlight for others that we are ready and willing to work, that we are untapped talent, and that we have and should have more opportunities to earn a fair day's wage for work that we do.

And such good advice. What about young people you know, really in awe of you and looking up to you with disabilities who either from bullying or whatever have sort of given up. What about employment? What advice do you have for them because of your expertise working with youth?

Yeah, thank you for, for asking that. I think far too often we know that young people, and not just young people, but young people and adults with disabilities will, will get bullied and get messages both from sometimes unfortunately in the classroom or in their communities about What is possible? And my message foremost is that anything is possible. And I dream of a world where you go to school and— just talk about the United States, because I know we've made some progress in this, but you should go to school and be able to learn about the disability rights movement. Certainly, I grew up, went to school, learned about the civil rights movement, learned about our country's history, but I didn't have the opportunity opportunity to learn about the many disability advocates, some of— many of whom you were naming at the, at the start, and what they've done to transform our world. So I would want them to know that there are people just like them who wanted the opportunity to live and be in their communities, and they fought for progress, and that they too would have the opportunities to fight for progress. But also, you know, sometimes you don't want to fight. You just want to feel like you belong. And I know that in many communities there are resources, both in-person resources but increasingly online resources, even social communities where there are people just like you. And I hope that, you know, people are able to tap into those, to have access to mentors, including mentors with disabilities, and the opportunity to start to build a vision of what their lives can be. I know certainly that's something I benefited from when I was younger, something I benefit from every day as an employee, as a leader. It's understanding what is possible and being supported in reaching that.

Oh, thank you so much. And look, listeners, young listeners, look at what she has accomplished. Look where she is. And here's someone who is a supporter of you. You just can't give up. One thing she said that I so agree with is the mentoring part. We all need a mentor, and that mentor can make the biggest difference in your life and help you because you need to network to get to know people. So, I agree with you. Great advice. And, you know, you can go to the Office of Disability Employment Policy, dol.gov. /ODEP and learn more about Assistant Secretary Taryn Williams, and you will see what I'm talking about. Well, look at you. You have accomplished so much. Now here you are in this very prestigious role. You had to have someone that was the fire in your life. So my question is, Who is your role model?

So it's hard to narrow it to just one. I think if it's not clear, as I said several times throughout the show, my mom is a role model for me. She is a person who taught me about self-determination. She was very clear from an early age that I was going to direct my care. I was going to understand what was happening. I was going to make choices. And that, I think, has given me— it's like values that really ground my work today. It's just that deeply held self-determination. I choose for me. But as an adult, I also have had the privilege of meeting and, and being mentored by advocates in our community. And I will often think about Judy Heumann, and the role that she played, not just for me, but really the role that she played for all of us. So many people around the world that she mentored, who she always listened to, always lent us an ear, but also was very quick to ensure that we knew what was possible and that we were fighting for it as well. I still have a voicemail from her, um, going back to January of last year where she just called to talk about, uh, some policy. And, uh, Judy really changed my life. Judy changed the world. And I think about her and the image that I have in my head is always of Judy holding hands with someone and on both sides. Like, when I think of her, I think of her holding hands with someone and the way that she created community, um, even in fights where it seemed like we could not win. And that is how I think about this work. Like, we have to create community, we have to figure out how to hold each other's hands, uh, literally, figuratively, And that is how we're going to achieve progress. That's the model she left us with.

What a great woman. She was a great woman and a great friend of mine. And she is one of those people that should be in the disability history books. I mean, she is known. She wrote a book. She spoke around the world. She worked around the world. She had the sit-ins. I mean, she did so many things, but she is a great person. And for any of you listening, it's called Being Human, H-E-U-M-A-N-N. My greatest— oh, I was so honored when she included me with the disability rights leaders at the end of the book. I told her, wow, what an honor. She is and always will be an inspiration to so many people. So, Assistant Secretary First, thank you so much for being with us today. It was just such a pleasure to have you as a guest on the show. Thank you. Do you have any message for our listeners?

I think my final message will be happy ending, everyone. It's National Disability Employment Awareness Month here, and we use it as an opportunity to fight for employment, but it is so much more than that. It is about us having the opportunities and the dignity to live and thrive in our communities. Thank you, Joyce. Thank you to all your listeners. I am in community with, with all of you, and I'm just so grateful to be here today.

Well, it's so wonderful to have you. And you know, once again, tell your friends all they have to do, go to Spotify, go to voiceamerica.com, and you will be able to hear this show. Well, we end every show with a quote. I've used this before, but I'm using it again because people with disabilities, all people, but people listening to this show, you've got to go vote. You've got to go vote. No matter how you vote, you have to vote. So my quote for today is, vote "Live as if your life depends upon it because it does," said the great late Justin Dart Jr. This is Joyce Bender, America's Voice, where disability matters at voiceamerica.com. Talk to you next week. And in the words of Mary Brooker, remember, choose joy.

Voice America would like to thank you for tuning in. Please join us next Tuesday at 11 AM Pacific time and 2 PM Eastern time for another installment of Disability Matters right here on the Voice America variety channel. We are the leader in live internet talk radio. VoiceAmerica.com.