The Honorable Tony Coelho, Author of the Americans with Disabilities Act-Congressman Steny Hoyer

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Hi everyone, welcome to Disability Matters with Joyce Bender. I am always thankful that I have all of you wonderful listeners for 22 years. It's hard for me to believe that all that time has come and that now I've had over 1,000 episodes. And I have to thank Highmark for that because they are the sponsor of this show. Thank you, CEO David Holmberg and President Karen Hanlon. They are so great. You know, one of the greatest things Every year for 31 years, they hire people. And may I say, that is where the rubber meets the road. That's why when people say to me, oh Joyce, oh, it's so wonderful what you do. I say, okay, fine. Hire someone. See, I learned this from Tony Coelho to just put it right back to them. But you know what? That is the truth. That's what matters, employing people with disabilities. So I first want to thank all of my listeners around the world. I don't know what's happening there in Singapore, but every week you are right after the United States with the most listeners. So, you know, thank you. Thank you so much. But more importantly, spread the news. You know this show is about quality of life for people living with disabilities, why people with disabilities should have employment and the same rights as everyone else. So you keep spreading the news, but thank you so much. And I have to mention for Tony Coelho's benefit that we have listeners in Portugal. Sudan must know. Tony is connected to this show, but you know, over 142 countries. It's just amazing to me. And some of them, some of them, here we go, only have, yes, one listener, like Somalia, one listener. You know what I'm going to say, right? I say it all the time. One person can make a difference. One person. So I appreciate you very much. Keep spreading the news about the show. And I have my always special shout out to Yoshiko Dart. And I know when I do that, I'm positive she's listening to the show or watching the show. And she's saying, "Lead on, Joyce." I know it. I know it. I know it. And we love you, Yoshiko. We really love you. So, wow, I couldn't wait for this show. These are two of my absolute most favorite people. I mean, just thinking I was having them on today, I was so excited. I love them both. And I'm talking about Congressman Steny Hoyer and former Congressman Tony Coelho. Welcome to the show.

Thank you, Joyce. Great to be with you and Steny.

Thank you, Joyce. I'm always good to be on anything with my mentor and director of operations, Tony Coelho.

Well, yeah, he is, he is, he's my mentor and I'm his tour mentor. So yeah, we are, we're in the same boat there.

Now, Joyce, can I ask you a question before we start? Do we have any Danes on? Because, you know, we got Portugal on. I want my Danes on.

I'm going to tell you in one second.

42 countries. I'm hoping that Danish made it.

They did make it.

All right.

Yes, here's Denmark and several other countries.

Good.

How about that? There you go. See, you Danish countries, Congressman Hoyer asked about you. So you should tell that to everyone. The Congressman Steny Hoyer called you out. So you better keep listening to this show and see this show. You better share it with everyone. You know, because he was on the show with me. And here I am. They're both by beaches. I am in beautiful Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, best city in America. But I'm happy, happy, happy to be here. So, Tony, this is Disability Pride Month. Oh my goodness. How could it be better than to start with the two of you? I can't think of a better way. So Congressman Hoyer, let's start with you. Ever since I've known you, you have been a champion for people with disabilities, always. Like, I'll be with a group of people, whether it's at AAPD or whatever, wherever, and they'll say, "Oh, we've gotta call Steny, gotta call Steny Hoyer. He'll help us." You have been there. From the beginning with the ADA in 1990, you've been there for all of us. And I'm wondering, as a young boy, did you ever imagine you would be a congressman, a leader in, really, in American history in many ways, not just in the great state of Maryland, but what I'm talking about with the Americans with Disabilities Act that we'll talk about in a little bit. But Did you ever envision all of this when you were a young boy?

Well, I think the honest answer to that is no, I didn't. Of course, as a young boy, I wasn't sure what I envisioned as my future. So, as a very young boy, I envisioned myself as Tarzan swinging on vines throughout Africa. I was a big Tarzan fan.

Me too.

I was a big Johnny Weissmuller. I don't know.

Weissmuller. Yeah.

Most of our listeners are way, way too young, or viewers, uh, to remember Johnny Weissmuller, but he was one of the first, uh, players of Tarzan in the movies. And I'm— and I just was— that, that was me. And my mother got so mad at me, I was swinging on doors. She was convinced I was either going to break my neck or break the door or both. But, you know, depending upon what young is, and of course now at 87, young is almost everybody that I know. But I think, you know, sort of about at the age of 15, 16, 17, or 18, I started to think about civil rights. I started to get my consciousness raised, if you will, about the problem of civil rights, about how people were discriminated against. I remember back to a time when I had a young African-American friend. I was probably 13 or 14 years of age, and we were— went to a place, a club, to play tennis. My stepfather and mother and this young friend and myself, and we were playing tennis for about 20 minutes, and somebody came out of the office and came onto the tennis court and told me, or told, I guess, my stepfather or my mother, African Americans are not allowed on this tennis court. And my mother and father were not happy at all, stepfather, and they said, well, okay, let us finish this game and we will leave, because they didn't want to make a scene. And I was, I'm not sure that exactly whether I was angry, disappointed, amazed, So it was at that point in time, one of the things I knew is that I thought, you know, my friend should be treated just like me. And I think the reason I mention that is that's one of the reasons and one of the activities I've been most involved in, both in my college years, which were the civil rights years, really. I went to college '57, '63. I went part-time for a long time because I was working. And the civil rights movement was really the movement. I tell Bill Clinton all the time, Tony, you know, his was the Vietnam. He was 8 years after me. And they were focused on the war in Vietnam and that motivated them. But the civil rights Arrow was mine. So I knew at that point in time, and I was not as a child, but as a young person, that was something I wanted to be involved in.

Wow.

You know what? You have another thing in common with Tony, because I remember Tony telling me about what got him started as far as John Kennedy. Am I right? Am I right there, Tony? President Kennedy.

Oh, Kennedy. John F. Kennedy. Yes. Yes, ma'am.

Well, I have a story. Joyce, you know my story maybe about John Kennedy. You know, I say I went to college. I did very poorly my first year. I mean, when I say very poorly, I did a 1.7 and 1.0 back to back. And I dropped out the third semester, the fall semester of 1958, I dropped out. And then I went back in the spring of '59, and, you know, I said to myself, I better get my act together. And then there was a spring convocation in April at the university, and we were off from 11 to 1. I was at a history class I remember at 11 o'clock, bells rang, we got out, and the speaker was going to speak at Cole Field House at 11:30 that day. I was starting to walk up the hill towards the Cole Field House where he was going to speak, but also towards the student union, and I saw this car driving by, convertible, it was a warm day, and I saw the speaker. And I was not going to go, but I was so impressed. First of all, it was a 1958 Pontiac convertible. It was a really cool car. So I thought that was neat. And he was not driving himself, I don't think. But so I went and heard him speak, and I was so inspired by what he had to say, so moved by his admonition for young people to get involved. That I was a business major at the point, at that point in time. I changed my major the next week to government politics and decided I wanted to get into public service of some type, which is what he urged all of us to do. Not necessarily political office, but to get involved in our community and make a difference. And that semester I made a 3.8. So I went from a 1.0 the previous semester I'd been in school to a 3.8. That was a road to Damascus experience for me. So in that light, I don't know, Tony and I really haven't talked about this, I don't think, but he changed my life. And of course, that was John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Spring of '59, he was running for President of the United States, was in the United States Senate. And I did very well the balance of my college career, got involved in the student government, and was elected to the state senate 7 years almost to the— well, to the year after he spoke on that campus. So that's my John Kennedy experience, and it was a transformative experience. And to some degree, let me say, I don't know that I've ever made this analogy, but my running for Congress in a special election in 1981 and being Tony Coelho's first competitive race. There was a race before mine, but it wasn't really competitive. It was a Republican district, Stockman's district in Michigan. And Tony and I became fast friends during that short election period and remained fast friends to this very day. And Tony was an inspiration to me in terms of specifically how to apply my concern that all individuals be treated equal in our country, not necessarily the same, but with equal opportunity and dealing with the circumstances those people found themselves in. Tony made a huge difference in my life and give him that focus to which you referred in terms of those with disabilities who— because that was a civil rights issue. May not have been an African-American issue or a race issue or something, but it was an issue of people who were discriminated against irrationally.

Yeah, yeah. And, and Tony, that's what I was meaning before. You've told me before that President Kennedy really inspired you also to follow being a public servant.

Yeah, well, I was in college at the time, had come home in the summer of my freshman year. And, you know, I was always interested in student government but never considered myself a political animal as such. But Kennedy came to a little small town where I was born in Central California, Los Banos, and he— everything about him was so exciting. Catholic, good-looking, articulate. I just got— I was impressed. And as a result of that, became committed to wanting to be involved. And to be involved politically if possible. Never thinking I'd run for Congress, but being involved. I mean, he did that to so many people. But boy, the Kennedy family throughout the years became my guidepost. Ted Kennedy, Steny, and I both worked with him a great deal. He was very much like his brother. Concern for immigration. People today discriminate against people coming in, taking over. Well, you know, a lot of people don't realize when the Irish came to the United States, people discriminated against them, called them Black Irish and so forth and so on. And so, but their commitment to public service is what really turned me on. Um, and I, you know, I'm still a great admirer of the whole Kennedy family. I, I, though, but I, you know, Steny talks about, uh, his first involvement as such, and mine was of course, uh, starting having seizures at 16. Um, I realized then because of my family and the way they rejected my seizures. And I realized when I decided as a result of all this I wanted to become a priest and the Catholic Church said no because of my seizures, I realized then that there was really a basic problem with our country in not only politically but with families and with the church and so forth. And as a result of that, um, uh, with my rejection of all that, I became suicidal. And I came out of it, uh, basically when— I'm sorry, let me turn this thing off. Uh, I came out of that and committed, uh, to make a difference, uh, because of this voice that I heard said, you, you're never going to let anybody stop you from what you wanted to do. And I then I really got into it and I felt great about it. Joyce, in response to your question to Steny, as a young person, I was totally committed to helping what I would call the voiceless. My mother was that way. I felt strongly about people being discriminated against. I'm a bit younger than Steny, but basically the whole issue of Black Americans, what they were going through, we had it on our farm and so forth. So I understand all that. But Joyce, I want to move quickly to something before we get away from this. When we talk about the ADA, A lot of people talk about what I've done. I acknowledge that. But I think the most important thing to remember about the ADA, that it was bipartisan. That if we didn't have Papa Bush as president, we may not have gotten anywhere. Ronald Reagan started it. That's how I got involved with ADA, is he was working on it. Then Papa Bush is the one that there was an argument in his staff about vetoing the bill, and he said no. And he was involved in making sure that it happened. And the other thing is, is that in the Senate, you had Bob Dole and you had Orrin Hatch. Bob Dole, the majority leader, and Orrin Hatch, the leading conservative Republican, supporting this. So when people talk about myself or Steny or Tom Harkin and so forth, I think, you know, that's great.. But if it weren't for the Republicans, we wouldn't have got anywhere. And I'm going to make one other comment. In the Senate, we had Ted Kennedy, we had Bob Dole, we had Tom Harkin, we had Orrin Hatch. That was really the leadership in the Senate. In the House, I was the only person who acknowledged a disability. Harkin did acknowledge his brother's Kennedy acknowledged his son, his sister, and so forth. And Bob Dole acknowledged his own disability. But I was the only one who acknowledged. That doesn't mean I was the only one with a disability. I was the only one who acknowledged it. And when I left, I asked Steny to take over the ADA. And I'll tell you, Steny's wife at the time had epilepsy. But he took it on without a disability. He took it on. And I want to tell you that if it hasn't been— and I've said this before, and I say it to Steny, and I say it to Joyce Bender, you and your listeners— if it hadn't been for Steny Hoyer, the ADA would not be law today. It would have passed the Senate. There's no doubt about it. It would not have passed the House because there was opposition in part of our leadership. There was opposition with several members, including a couple of committee chairs. Steny had to lead all that effort, getting it get through the House. So I openly and aggressively compliment Steny in regards to his leadership in making it happen. He deserves a lot of credit, if not the credit, for making sure that bill became law. And so it was a, you know, Hillary said it takes a family. It took a family for this. It took a family to come together. Nobody really led. It took a family, Justin Dart, to move the community and got the community ready for it. When I put in the bill, there was already a grassroots support building. We didn't have to build it. Justin already had built it. And so it was implementing the thing. So it took a family. And a lot of us played critical roles. Sometimes Steny is hesitant to say his role. I say it aggressively, if it weren't for him, it wouldn't happen. And so I think there's so many folks who want to take credit for the ADA. I applaud it. That's— when there's a success, there's 1,000 folks who are involved. When there's a failure, there's only one. But I love it. I love the fact that so many people talk about their role and how how important their role was. And everybody's role was important. But I really think it's important to acknowledge the Republicans. If we didn't have the Republicans, it never would have gotten there. The President, Bob Dole, Orrin Hatch. And then acknowledge, of course, Ted Kennedy, Tom Harkin, the Senate. But the House was the critical one. The House was without a person with a disability leading the effort. I left the Congress and I will openly say without reservation that when I put in the bill, I got a lot of people supporting it because of my leadership position. I understand that. Uh, but then Steny took that over and guided it through the committees. We, he and I talked during that whole process, but he was the one that was talking about it. I know committee chairmen who took him on and he He actually ended up creating some— or some folks got upset with him. And I would say— I was going to say enemies, not enemies, but political negatives as a result of his pushing to get the ADA done. So Joyce Bender, I really wanted to participate in this conversation because I wanted you to understand I wanted Steny to hear how strongly I feel about his role. I love him as a person. He knows that. I admire his leadership in the Congress. I admire him as a friend and will always be one of my very, very best friends. I love you, Steny, and thank you. I mean exactly what I have been saying.

I love you, Tony. Joyce, let me add, we mentioned members and Bob Dole was critically important. Tom Harkin was critically important. Jim Sensenbrenner, Tony, you didn't mention Jim Sensenbrenner and his wife, critically important. She had disabilities, who's a Republican and became chairman of the Judiciary Committee. But let me tell something to your listeners or to the viewers of this podcast. You're the ones that made it happen. Now, Tony had a disability. And I tell everybody, everybody has a disability. There's no per— I tell people, I give them the example, Abe Pollin, who owned the Washington Wizards basketball team. He never asked me to play center on the team. Why? Because I'm 6 feet tall, not 7 feet tall. There is nobody who can do everything. Everybody has some— something they can't do. And we all need to recognize that and then recognize there are some people who can do a lot of things but can't do other things. And that was what the ADA was about. Looking at people's ability, not their disability. And I know somebody was upset when I said we ought to drop the dis. People are proud of the fact that they have overcome, they have succeeded notwithstanding a challenge that perhaps others of us did not have. So the real heroes, and we mentioned Justin Dart and Yoko, the real heroes are those people like Tony with a disability And it's interesting, the story that Tony told me was so powerful when he told me the priest said, you can't stay in the seminary because what would happen if somebody had a heart attack and you were giving the last rites and you had a seizure? Well, what would happen if you had a heart attack? I mean, the what-ifs, it's not what if something happens. It's what can you do? What kind of empathy do you have? What kind of intellectual ability do you have? What kind of sensibilities do you have for people's problems and maladies that they're trying to deal with? And Tony had that. But sort of put Tony with those who have such a disability. I mean, that's why I mentioned the civil rights movement. Black was having skin color that was dark, was a disability. Tony mentioned the Irish. They came to Boston, they said, you're not welcome. The Italians came to Providence, they weren't welcome. The Jews came to New York, they weren't welcome. The Germans came to Milwaukee, you're not welcome. So this has happened to a lot of people, and one of the groups that had not had that dealt with as a civil rights issue was the disabilities community. They were being discriminated against either because of a perception or a reality of something that was different than others.— and there were a lot of people involved, but nobody, nobody, no one individual has been any more powerfully involved and impactful than Tony Quillo.

Well, I agree with that, but I also know from knowing Tony since 1996, I know how many times he's told me the story If I hadn't known Steny, didn't have Steny, the ADA would not have been passed. Just what he said. So I know, I know that he thinks that. So what would happen if we didn't have an ADA and we had to get it signed into law today?

Tough sledding.

Yeah. Joyce Bender, part of what I've been saying here, and thank you, Steny, for your comments, but Joyce Bender: You talked about Heimart and how they've hired people because you talk to power. You talk to the CEO. One of the problems we have in our community is that there's a reluctance to take a chance on us. And I always say, you take a chance on everybody you hire. Why don't you take a chance on us? I always say, give me the right to fail like you give everybody else the right to fail. 'And if I prove myself like others prove themselves, then you've made a good decision. If I didn't, you've made a bad decision, but that's the same thing with everybody else.' And one of my greatest achievements, I will say, Steny, is that I always love to speak up to power. Presidents didn't bother me. I told them exactly what I thought. But when I talked to the Pope, John Paul, and told him about the discrimination in our church. Um, I don't know if my comments were the critical thing. I don't care. I just love the fact that as an individual, I could speak to the Pope of the Catholic Church and tell him what I felt about my disability and the church's reaction to it and so forth. To me, those of us with disabilities, we have tremendous power if we use it. We have tremendous power because of what we've gone through, what we believe, and so forth. And so, as I've said so many times, Joyce Bender, and as many of you have heard me, is that I really push those of us with disabilities to speak up. Speak up to power. Don't be afraid to say that you're upset about something that's going on. Say it. That's how you're going to make a difference. They may say no, but people say no all the time. They may say yes, and if they say yes, you've made a difference. So I am very aggressive on that.

Well, I know you are, and I'm very—

The fact that Tony Coelho is very aggressive is not a surprise. To anybody who knows Tony Coelho. He is so effective. And so, you know, I mentioned Tony. Well, he has a disability, but you would never know he has a disability. Tony has a disability that is not immediately visible. Some people are in a wheelchair, some people are blind, some people are deaf, some, you know, they have disabilities that are relatively readily visible to people. Tony's is not. And but Tony has a significant disability that the church thought made him unqualified to be a priest. I think they were dead flat wrong. But the fact is that Tony Coelho is one of the most ability-blessed people that I know. And that's He was the quintessential example of literally hundreds of thousands of other people who went to their local member of Congress or their senator or their county council person or their influencer and said, look, I can do a lot of things, but I'm not being allowed to do so. But with a reasonable, some sort of accommodation, you make the door a little wider, I can go through the door. You give me an elevator, I can go to the second floor. You give me a curb cut and I can, you know, get around on the streets. By the way, the curb cuts, I'm gonna use this example all the time, they're used more by people with strollers and bicycles than by people with this, who are in a wheelchair.

Our delivery men and women to stores, you know? I mean, geez, you, you said one thing that I think I'd just like to mention quickly, and that is that The Catholic Church basically said that somebody with my disability could not be a priest. The reason they said that, and a lot of Republicans know this, Jenny, that the church felt that I was possessed. And a lot of Republicans think I'm possessed. And you know, dammit, I agree with them.

So do all your friends.

Well, hey, it's time for our news break with a great disability rights leader, Jennifer Mathis. Mathis on the mic on every week, only place actually in the world where every week people with disabilities can tune in and hear news. We don't have CNN, MSNBC, or the world news, but we have Disability Matters, Mathis on the Mic. Welcome, Jennifer. How are you today?

I'm good, thank you. This is a particularly exciting show today. So I just want to very quickly start out by thanking Tony and Steny for all of the amazing work that you have done over the years. To give us the ADA, to work with us to get the ADA Amendments Act passed when the courts gave us problems with the ADA. And these are just such critically important rights. And now I think is a time when it makes you realize just how much you can't take these things for granted. This is a time when we see the federal government, actually the same government that spent the last several decades enforcing the ADA aggressively, prioritizing the ADA, now trying to do an about-face to take away basic ADA and 504 rights. So that's also my news item today. I think that You all have given us a very, very strong foundation. I am confident we will prevail. But my news item today is just— I want to just continue what we talked about last week because it was such a critically important issue, and that was that, you know, we've now seen the Justice Department turn around, do an about-face after decades of being the lead enforcer of the ADA's and 504's integration mandate, um, and to say that after all of these years, there is no integration mandate. States do not have to worry about serving people with disabilities in their own homes and communities. There is no right to services in the most integrated setting. And so I just want to emphasize, because I want to make sure that it came through really clearly, people should go in particular to their state leadership to try to get a commitment, whether it's blue state, red state, doesn't matter. I think disability rights cut across party lines and they should be priorities across both parties. And I think that it is possible, just as it was to get states with different party leadership to support. And actually, like a bunch of red states pulled themselves off of this litigation challenging HHS's 504 rule. So I think the same token, we should go to the governors and the attorneys general and say, we want a commitment. We want you to reject this position. By DOJ, reject this June 18th memo saying that Olmstead doesn't give the rights that we all thought it did and that there's no integration mandate, and we want you to commit to continue to serving people in the most integrated setting appropriate. So those are the things I just want to highlight for the news today. Thank you.

Joyce, let me just comment on something that Jennifer just brought up. Uh, I think it's really important that we recognize that one of the ways that we got the ADA through was that in presidential elections prior to the ADA being adopted, we made sure that presidential candidates had to answer the question about ADA and disability rights. We made that an issue with people running for office at every level. We are back at that point today. And so I think that when you go to— you're thinking of voting in November, that you should make sure that those people that you vote for have said that they support disability rights and the enforcement of them. And that when we look at 28 presidential candidates, Democrat and Republican, we should ask every one of them what is their position on disability rights and the enforcement of disability rights. But it means that we have to start over again and getting people politically challenged. And I mean challenged, challenge them about getting to support us. So, Jennifer, I think your comments are great. I think we just have to understand that we can't take anything for granted, that the erosion of our support is moving. And if we don't step in and go back to basics, we are in effect going to lose a lot more.

And also, Tony, Jennifer mentioned something we really hadn't focused on, I think, and that is that it was not only having disabilities but the perception of a disability. That is what civil rights is about. The perception, because somebody is different from us or has a visible or not visible, and the perception that somehow they can't do things. That's what the amendments were about, because the Supreme Court has said, no, you actually have to be disabled. But if somebody thinks I can't do something and doesn't hire me because they think I can't do it and don't give me a chance, as you pointed out, Tony, That's a perception. And I want to thank again Jim Sensenbrenner and Orrin Hatch, two Republicans who stepped up to the plate and said that is not right and joined us, as you recall. And Bob Dole joined us and members of the Senate and in a pretty bipartisan way in both houses. And we said no, no, no, civil rights is about perception, uh, and, uh, it's also about inclusion. And what I think Jennifer mentioned was, uh, talking about the Olmstead Act and the case in Texas now, and Steve Miller's, uh, belief that we ought to go back to the 17th and 18th centuries and lock people away. You know, there's a great ad I love, uh, it's about psoriasis, I believe, um, See me. See me. Don't be blind to me. Don't ignore me. Don't put me aside. Don't lock me away so you cannot see me. See me and treat me as a person, as an individual, as somebody with dignity. And that continues to be particularly in this administration, the way we're treating immigrants. Now, I believe that we need to have border security, period. We cannot— in a world of terrorism, we cannot have people coming into our country that we don't know who they are or authorize them to come in there. I believe that strongly. But do not demagogue and demean me because I am an immigrant. Don't treat me as a non-human being. You know, I went to a— I'm not calling his name right now, but any event, museum that was established by a real great civil rights fighter, and I'm not able to call his name, but any event, one of the things he says is the first thing you have to do as a human being before you start discriminating against people is to dehumanize them. You have to lower them in your sight as being worthy of being treated equally.

I think you mean Bryan Stevenson.

Bryan Stevenson, yeah. Thank you, Jennifer. I need all the help I can get. But Bryan is a wonderful guy and that museum is a powerful one. Yes, it deals with African Americans or Africans who were brought here involuntarily, but it deals with the concept that somebody is less than I am and therefore I can treat them with less dignity, less respect, and less attention than I treat others.

I'll add to what Steny just said, but I'll be a little more aggressive. And that is that what I don't like about today with this administration is that they are creating the impression that if you're white, you're better than everybody else. I have a real damn problem with that. And when you say that I only want white Southern Africans, to have immigration status to come into the United States, the signals you're sending to everybody— Hispanic, Asians, Blacks— that they are not equal. They are not like everybody else. And that, to me, is one of the most disgusting things that is happening. I, you look at, I know what's happening with the disability community, Jennifer, but it's even bigger than that. It's even bigger than that. And Steve Miller is the problem. And he has a leader, the president, who goes along with it. A president that is married to an immigrant. A president that his family were immigrants and so forth. So I just think we got to call it as it is. It's a huge problem. And we in the disability community are part of what people are trying to do. But it's bigger than us.

I will say that Jennifer and I, we've known each other a long time. I still remember years ago where I don't know, some senator or someone brought something up and Jennifer said to me, you know what I'm afraid of? I'm afraid people with mental health disabilities will be shoved back in institutions. Well, thank God that didn't happen, but sadly it could happen right now. Um, and, and Steny, that one thing you said, I say this, I say, you know, I used to tell people the reason people with disabilities aren't getting hired is because people pity them. Well, it's not pity any longer. Now it's, I don't even see you. What you said, Steny, I don't even want to see you. You know, I look at you, it's not worth looking at you. That is how, you know, that's how I feel. I live with epilepsy. And I always say, and I know Tony knows this is true, everything's fine unless you have a seizure, then everyone runs for the hills as fast as possible. But That's, uh, that is sad. Now, Jennifer, when are we going to know the next thing that's going to happen with this?

I mean, Texas, uh, not Texas, the, the United States actually is supposed to file a brief next week in the Texas litigation. And so we'll see what they say there. There's several cases that are currently pending in the courts where they are involved, and I think they will largely shut those cases down at this point. But, you know, I think the concern is we don't want courts even weighing in on this issue, which is why it's important to make sure that states commit that they're not going to start raising these issues, these arguments that are in that memo. But I think that we'll see this all play out in courts over the next year.

Well, thank you so much, Jennifer, for calling in. Thank you for the news.

Thank you, Jennifer. Thanks for what you do.

Thank you. Well, Steny, the great state of Maryland is losing a great statesman. I mean, I know you'll still be involved, But Joyce Bender, I tell people I'm retiring, not quitting. Right. So, Tony, I wanted to ask you, though, over the years, what do you think Tony Steny has contributed, even, you know, in his state, in Congress, in addition to the ADA? What do you think?

I think there's one basic thing, uh, is common decency. Mm-hmm. Um, Steny, uh, can disagree, but he doesn't disagree in an unpolite way. He disagrees. He deals with facts. But it's common courtesy to others, except when he's around me. He's a little negative and tough. But other than that, uh, his is his decency with people. The way he treats a young person, the way he treats a person of color, the way he treats a president and so forth and so on, it makes no difference. He treats everybody the same way. And I picked that up when he was running for Congress. And as Steny pointed out, was my first real tough race as campaign chair. And, and I picked up what he was all about. And that's why I fell in love with him and still feel strongly about Steny. But that common decency, Joyce, is something that a lot of people don't have. And the few people that have really can make a difference. And Steny's one of those.

Thanks, Tony. Uh, before we say something before we end, We talked a lot about people, people with disabilities. Tony mentioned it at the beginning. We had great success in many ways with the ADA. We talked a lot about access, opening up reasonable accommodations so that people could do things with a little bit of help. But one of the things we haven't had as much success as we wanted to have is to make sure that people could live independently. In order to do that, they need jobs and employment, and they need to feel that they're self-sufficient and can earn their own way. And I want to congratulate you for the extraordinary work you have done, the yeoman work that you have done to further that objective. To heighten people's awareness of what people can do and to get them to do it and to get them to learn how effective it is in including people with disabilities in things that they can do and do very well and very conscientiously. So I just— before we ended this program, I wanted to thank you, Joyce. I know Tony feels the same way, and Joni and I have talked about you. And you are really one of the great implementers of the concept of inclusion.

And let me just give it— let me give a quick example on that, Steny, in that there was a young lady with a couple disabilities who worked for Joyce Bender and a young man. She had one disability, she was short like Joyce Bender. The young man that she met was tall like Stinney, um, and they fell in love, both of them with severe disabilities. They got married. Joyce was the maid of honor and I was the best man at that wedding at a picnic. They then were able, with their jobs that Joyce got for them, they were able to purchase a home, they were able to purchase a car, they ended up with a family, kids, that they have raised. The difference that that has made in those two individuals where they got their pride, their ability to say that I can do X is because of what Joyce Bender does. And I sing her praises all the time, Stedney, as you do, because of that impact in giving people the opportunity to be able to say that they can do X. And so I applaud her. She knows I do. And the thousands of people that she has gotten jobs for, but the thousands of people that are in her database. So for companies that are looking for people with ability, then they should go to Joyce Bender because she has a lot of people in that database that have ability. I would only say one last thing, Joyce, is that, you know, people talk about my disability. I always point out that, you know what, there are things I can't do because of my disability. I can't be a fireman, I can't be a policeman, I can't be blah, blah, blah, blah. But there's a lot of things I can do. I was milking cows at one day and now I'm chairman of a bank board. I was in Congress, was on Wall Street and so forth. I can do those things I'm not better than a lot of people. But I was given an opportunity to do so, and that's what Joyce Bender does. And that's what Steny did, as in my view, and making sure the ADA was passed. So I love you, Steny, and thank you for all that you've done. And I know you're not quitting. You're just not with the job that you had. But you're going to continue to have an impact.

Joyce, we keep ending, but let me say something else. Tony is probably— he and Ben Carton, probably the two closest friends I have. But the other very dear and close friend I had was John Lewis. I walked across the Edmund Pettus Bridge with John Lewis 15 times, and I tell people, proudly holding his hand on 7 of those occasions. On the other 8 occasions, I was by his side, but there may have been somebody between us on the front line as we walked across the Edmund Pettus Bridge, which of course is the bridge where Bloody Sunday occurred in 1965, March 7th. And they were marching to register to vote so their voice could be heard because that's how That's the— an American's most powerful voice, their vote. And what the ADA— I go back to what I said at the beginning— what Tony did so well, what I helped to do and others helped to do, was to make sure those voices were heard and that in hearing those voices, policymakers, not only members of Congress but other policymakers at every level of government, would hear them and be moved to make sure that they were included. We say in our Declaration, we hold these truths to be self-evident. What I tell everybody, they may be self-evident, but they are not self-executing. It takes all of us to make sure that although they may be self-evident, that all men are created equal and women and people of color, people of different races and nationalities, genders, sexual orientation, uh,. But it takes us to make sure that they are realities. That's what America is about, and that's what America continues to need to be about. Thank you very much, Joyce Bender.

Oh, thank you for being on. I'm going to say one last thing, and thank you, Tony, as usual. Number one, I'm having you both back on next year, so you won't escape me. And number 2 is, you know, no matter where I've been, when Congressman Hoyer is speaking, no matter where, he takes time to say, "Oh, there's Joyce Bender. Yes, she hires people with disabilities." I just want you to know, you'll never know how much that has meant to me over the years. Just so honored. I am so honored. And with that, we got to get ready to move on. Our quote for the day. Is work gives us dignity, says the great Tony Coelho. This is Joyce Bender, America's Voice, where disability matters, at voiceamerica.com. Talk to everyone next week. And in the words of Mary Brooker, when you get up tomorrow morning, Choose joy. You won't be disappointed.

Voice America would like to thank you for tuning in. Please join us next Tuesday at 11 AM Pacific time and 2 PM Eastern time for another installment of Disability Matters right here on the Voice America Variety Channel. We are the leader in live internet talk radio. VoiceAmerica.com.