The Japanese Commitment to Disability Inclusion

Welcome to Disability Matters with your host Joyce Bender. All comments, views, and opinions expressed on the show are solely those of the host, guest, and callers. Now the host of Disability Matters, here's Joyce Bender.

And welcome to the show, everyone, everyone in the United States and around the world. This is so exciting because we are having a show live from Okinawa Center for the Deaf. And oh my God, is that wonderful? You know, we've had a show before with Japan. And so I have to give that shout out. I always do to Richard Roberts, my friend with the State Department who actually is in Okinawa. Such a great disability rights advocate and friend, and Gangyung in South Korea, and Venyamin in Kazakhstan, and Cheryl Harris in Tunisia. All work for the State Department and are all great friends of mine. You know, there isn't anything better than talking to people around the world and spreading the news about quality of life for people with disabilities. And being that I am on the board of the National Technical Institute for the Deaf, this show is very personal to me, because I'm so involved with the deaf community here in the United States. I must also mention that Danielle Phillip is our interpreter, and she is just awesome and so well known. I'm just thrilled to have her with us today. Also, a special shout out to Yoshiko, Yoshiko Dart, you know, I know you're going to love this show with all your friends living in Japan. So a special shout out to you. And certainly I have to thank our sponsor, Highmark, who has sponsored this show for years, making it possible for me to talk to all of you. So Megumi and Martin, welcome to the show. As I said, this is so exciting, so great. Megumi, it is so nice to see you again. As I said earlier, I miss all of you. I miss all of you from when I visited you, and I loved Okinawa, and I loved all the people that I met. So it's so nice to be with you again. And I know from Richard you have accomplished so much for people from the Deaf community in Japan. You are one of the only ASL JSL interpreters. So let's start by you telling your story because we have people in the United States and all around the world listening right now. So how about if we begin by hearing your story and also what it was like growing up as a deaf woman in Okinawa.

Certainly. Thank you, Joyce Bender, for the honor of having me here with you. Thank you so much. It is so nice to see you again too, Joyce. You'd like to know about my being raised in Okinawa. I'll start with my name. I am Megumi Kawakami, and I was born deaf. My family, both of my parents, mother and father, and also my sister, they are also deaf. So, I was raised into a family, and I'm a native signer of Japanese Sign Language. My time in school had me attending a school where, from elementary school through my junior school years, I attended a hearing school. And in the hearing school at that time, there was no interpreter provided. I had no access to communication. I wasn't able to speak. I wasn't able to hear what they were saying. I did my studies on my own. My parents were involved and active in the community there. They were quite social. I saw many deaf adults and I was able to communicate with those deaf adults, but I did not have communication in school. After graduating, I worked for a number of years, and I also taught Japanese Sign Language at the time. I was training to become an interpreter and progressed through those years, but I always thought back on my education and realized that I had missed many things. I always wanted more, a more full education for myself. And an education that I had better access to. I actually looked into Gallaudet University and thought about the wonderful opportunities that could be provided to me there. The Nippon Foundation in Japan offers scholarships to deaf and hard of hearing students. And so I applied for that scholarship, and I was lucky enough to win. That scholarship was awarded to me, allowing me to go first to school in California. I studied ASL and English at university in California. I was there for 1 year, and I had direct communication access because a deaf teacher was instructing me there at university. I then transferred into Gallaudet University, where I received my bachelor's degree in deaf studies, and then I received my master's degree in the Department of Interpretation. During my time at Gallaudet University, it was very different for me. As I told you, my earlier studies caused me to miss out on education, miss out on a lot of things. But in Gallaudet, I had access. I was able to experience and receive a good education. The environment there motivated me to learn more. In my graduate school program, I was the only deaf person. Everybody else was hearing in the graduate school there at Gallaudet, but I had an opportunity to work alongside them and study alongside them. And we all used American Sign Language to communicate in our classes. It didn't matter that I was a deaf student in that hearing environment. It was very beneficial to me, the education that I received in that program. Upon graduating, I received the Certified Deaf Interpreter certificate from the Registry of Interpreters for the Deaf, and that certificate gave me the credential of a CDI in Japanese Sign Language. So I am a Japanese Certified Interpreter. So in Japan, I'm the only one with this credential.

You mean in all of Japan?

Yes, ma'am, in all of Japan.

Oh my goodness.

There is no CDI or Certified Deaf Interpreter certificate in Japan yet. America, you have it, and you have many folks with that credential. In Japan, we only have certification for hearing interpreters, not yet for deaf interpreters. So I had to come to America to obtain that certificate for myself. When I received that certificate, then I came back here to my hometown of Okinawa, and I worked in the interpreting field. I worked as a deaf interpreter with the deaf individuals here. I work quite a bit in mental health and in medical situations, and I also coordinate interpreter services. Okinawa has hearing interpreters that are working there that are contracted. I want to say there are about 60 give or take. And I coordinated those 60 interpreters. I also taught interpreters. And I would go out of the country to provide international interpretation. That's actually how I met Martin. He and I worked together. We team interpreted, and we've done that a number of times together. I hope that helps you to understand my background and my upbringing.

Oh yes, thank you very much. I must congratulate you, and wow, what you overcame to go to school, not be able to communicate and do so well is just unbelievable and phenomenal. And Martin, you also are an advocate for the deaf. I wanted to talk to you about in Japan, how do you think the deaf community is viewed by people who are not deaf.

Certainly. First, if I may explain about my background, is that okay?

Yes.

Sure. My background is a little bit different than Magumi's, and so we have a different perspective. I actually was born in America, born and raised in Michigan near Detroit. My family is all hearing. I'm the only deaf person in my family. My parents, fortunately, did learn to sign when I was quite young. They found out that I was deaf, and they immediately started to learn sign language to be able to communicate with me. I'm very lucky to have had that experience. Unfortunately, in many parts of America and Japan alike, Parents, when they have deaf children, they don't choose to learn sign language right away. So that means, again, that I was fortunate. I was able to have access to communication in the home. I was able to communicate there, and I was able to acquire language very early on in life. There are other deaf individuals that don't have access to language until they're maybe 5 or 6 years of age, and they enter kindergarten, and that's the first place where they have access to language sometimes. So I am quite fortunate. Megumi mentioned that she has deaf family, and that was a wonderful experience for her because she had communication right away with her family. I must remind you that that isn't true for all deaf people. I did attend a mainstream school. I did not go to a deaf school, so I was the only deaf student in my school with a number of hearing peers. And I don't hear. I chose to use sign language the whole time. So I was in the classroom with an interpreter present providing access to my education for me, and I would observe the interpreter and interact with the students. There were one or two deaf students in other grades that I was able to socialize with, and I was in that mainstream environment from elementary all the way through high school. When I moved to Japan, Japanese people, when they met me, were shocked that I had an interpreter in my schooling. This amazed those people because I would tell them that I went through school with an interpreter and they would tell me, "Oh, we don't have that here in Japan." It was a foreign concept to them. Sometimes when they would attend a lecture or a big public event, an interpreter was present, but not in their schooling. So deaf students in Japan, there were— ability to access language depended upon their ability to read lips or use their residual hearing. Sometimes they had no information, no access to that information, rather. And it's a serious issue, I believe, but I'll leave that aside and let you know that when I graduated high school, I went to Gallaudet University in Washington, DC. Just like Megumi mentioned, we both attended the same university there. I majored in English. English. I was interested in reading, so I chose English as a major. And after 4 years at Gallaudet, I graduated and was always fascinated with Japan for some reason. There was something about Japan, seeing it on TV, the characters and the style of writing. The language was something that I was interested in. In school, I had learned Spanish, right? But I wanted more of a challenge. And to me, seeing the Japanese characters and the language was always interesting to me. During high school, I had an opportunity to travel to Japan for a short time with my parents, and I was enamored by the culture. I wanted to learn the language. So upon graduating, let's see, 2013, I went ahead and volunteered for a job here in Japan teaching American Sign Language in Tokyo. I thought, what a wonderful opportunity! I'll send my application and see what happens. And sure enough, they chose me. I couldn't have been more excited. I moved here to Tokyo and started teaching ASL to those deaf and hard of hearing Well, really, I taught every person, hearing, deaf alike, adults. I was teaching ASL too for 3 years. And in that time, I socialized quite a bit with the deaf community, as you'd imagine. And I was able to learn the Japanese language. I was able to learn to read and write Japanese. I also learned to read and use Japanese Sign Language and enjoy it very much. After 3 years in that role, I then started doing different freelance jobs, some interpreting, some translation work, presentations, and teaching English, English as a Second Language, and ASL. I've had a variety of jobs here in Japan, but that brings me to where I am today. I've been in Japan for 8 years now. I am in the Yamakanshi. Yamanashi. Apologies, the interpreter mispronounced. Yamanashi Province near Tokyo.

Well, I'll tell you what, we lost you, but Japan gained a great asset. By you moving there. And I have more questions for you in a minute, but first I wanted to ask Megumi. Megumi, when you came here and went to Gallaudet, which is a great university, I'm sure you have heard in Japan the story of how they were looking for a president. They had always had hearing presidents and they were looking for a new president. And they said, okay, let's go find another hearing person. And the students at Gallaudet said, wait, what do you mean? You tell us we can do anything, but yet you want a hearing president, not someone who is deaf. And there was a huge protest in Washington, D.C.

I do remember that. Yes, 1998, I think, was the year. Deaf President Now, it was called.

Yes, deaf president now, I King Jordan. And I King Jordan is a friend of mine. But it was just a wonderful thing what the students accomplished. And now, of course, they have a new president. But my question for you is, what was it like? I'm just wondering, what was it like for you to come to a country where people who are deaf are more accepted and where we have the Americans with Disabilities Act that make sure there's captioning, you know, and video relay services for people who are deaf and interpreters. You know, like if you go on an interview, there has to be an interpreter. What did that seem like to you from, from coming here from Japan?

Yes, that's a wonderful question, Joyce Bender. Japan is changing, but in that time it was quite a difference and a shock to me. In Japan, services weren't provided to me. I would ask for things. I would have to ask for help and ask individuals to, you know, "Would you mind interpreting for me? Could you please do this as a favor?" But when I came to America, with the ADA and the provision of interpreters and closed captioning and video relay service, it made me independent. It allowed me to be an independent person who was able to take on responsibilities and do things on my own. What a change. It was a 180-degree difference for me. When I arrived in America at first, my first experience with VRS was an awkward one for me. I wasn't sure what to do with the system. I was calling to order pizza, just something, you know, to test out the system, because I had never done that. I could do anything I wanted here because I had that. And it was a shock the first time, but I became more used to it over time. And I realized that I can. I can get equal access to the same things that hearing people can. Deaf people get interpreters, hearing people— I felt equal. And that was a big difference for me. Also, Joyce Bender, about interpreters here, It's wonderful because I can show my skills. I am able to— how do I want to say this? Many people think that deaf means that they can't hear, so therefore they cannot work. That's the mindset in Japan. But by having access and being given the opportunities, it allows me to showcase my skills. And show that I am human. I'm able to show who I am as Megumi. And so that was a huge difference for me.

Yes, I'm sure, I'm sure that was a shock to you to see the difference. Now in Japan, what laws do they have to protect people with disabilities? You know, Do you have anything similar to the Americans with Disabilities Act or not?

Yes, in Japan we do have a law. It's very recent, within the last, I'd say, 6 or 7 years, and we're progressing slowly. This law was established and VRS was also established now. Interpreting services are provided. But you're limited on the hours when you can use VRS, whereas in America, you have access to the Video Relay Service 24 hours a day. So it's a different process in Japan. And we will, in time, catch up, but right now, we're progressing. We're making progress and changes little by little. People, their lives are improving with these changes little by little here.

Martin, what do you think about that? You know, for example, how many interpreters are there? You know, if you would go on a job interview, would they be able to provide an interpreter? If you go to a doctor or the hospital, would they be able to provide an interpreter? What is it like there?

Sure. I'd like to add on to what Megumi was saying first, and then I'll answer your question there. The Americans with Disabilities Act there in America was established in 1990, so, you know, 30 years ago, and Japan's law is quite new. It's called the Disability Oppression Law. Is that right? The Disability Oppression Law? Something, uh, My English translation of the name of the law might not be accurate, but it's a newer law within the last decade. And it's a good start, but it hasn't been enforced yet. It's still making its way through the country. It's a law that exists, but it's not in all facets of the community yet. So sometimes things happen and They're attempting to provide reasonable accommodations for individuals, but the idea of reasonable isn't defined yet. So I have to tell you that sometimes people say that they can't accommodate for such-and-so reason. Oftentimes it's money, and they make up excuses to avoid accommodations for individuals relative to this law. There are companies out there that say, "Oh, I can't afford that," and they avoid the law. So as I said, it's not there yet. We have work to do, but yes, it is definitely improving. Here in Japan, as Megumi mentioned, we did not used to have the video relay service, and now, oh, I'd say maybe within the last 5 years, video relay service has really started to be widely available. It's only available 12 hours a day, so hours are limited. Uh, excuse me, interpreter. It was previously only available for 12 hours a day, but now it is available 24 hours a day. And that service is available in certain communities at that point. So there is increased access, and I see definite improvement and changes happening for the community. Absolutely.

Oh, well, that's good. So what happened, I'll ask you, Megumi, what happened with COVID the pandemic? If someone was deaf and they needed to get services, you know, they needed to get help at the hospital, what happened if there aren't a lot of interpreters? How did they communicate? During that time?

So if a deaf person was sick with COVID-19, so the prefecture would provide services for the person similar to video remote interpreting, VRI, they would give to the deaf person so that they could access communication. In my city, there were interpreter services provided to deaf people about COVID-19 and for those sick with COVID-19. If others in other areas were feeling suspicious that they might be sick with COVID they would ask the community office to provide them an interpreter, and they would be given— how do you call it— a tablet, you could say, that they would use to access remote interpreters so that everybody remains safe. And that was early on in the pandemic, but information about COVID-19 was disseminated to the deaf community. Unfortunately, most of that was done through captioning because it was— there was not a whole lot of interpreters provided. The captioning of documents was late in its distribution to the community. Sometimes there were communities of people who were interpreting that hearing people knew the information far before deaf people knew the information. Our access to information about COVID was behind. And it is an issue. It is a concern about how the information was not spread as quickly to the deaf community as it was to the hearing community. And to add, right now, the governor— the governor had not provided an interpreter with him for any of his briefings, but now I am happy to let you know the Governor is. He just started there providing an interpreter, so it's a step in the right direction. Our Governor is showcasing that interpreter there next to him, and others are seeing it and realizing that access is important because he is using an interpreter live for his briefings. So it's ending on a positive.

Yeah, I felt there would probably be healthcare disparity, but that's bad because that's how people probably lost their life during the pandemic. And I know there was healthcare disparity for some people in the United States with significant disabilities, you know, that maybe had quadriplegia or no transportation. So that doesn't surprise me, you know, what you just said to me. I spoke to people last evening from Japan, and I was very surprised at some things they told me, such as a law that you had up until 1996 where parents were euthanizing their child or told to abort the child if they had a disability. The Eugenics Protection Act, I think was the name. And my question was, do you believe parents in Japan have shame when they have a child who is deaf? In their case, I just asked disability, but do you feel there is pervasive shame when parents have children who are deaf? Martin.

You mean in Japan or in America?

In Japan.

Well, my perspective— I, I think Megumi would be the better person to answer that question given that she was born and raised in Japan. I— my upbringing and much of my life was in America, but I think in general Yes, there is a bit of concern, fear. They're not sure what to do. How will they communicate with this child? So shame, I think, varies. And so I want to be respectful to say that it used to be shameful to have a child with a disability, but I think now it's probably more fear on the part of those parents. They've perhaps never seen a deaf person before. You know, these parents have never seen a successful deaf person. Maybe they see one on TV, or they see people being pitied, or people with disabilities begging or struggling to communicate. Oftentimes, that's the perception from TV, that deaf people can't. An example, my parents, my hearing parents, the very first deaf person that they met was me. Me. I was their son. I was born deaf. I was the first deaf person they met. In their whole life, they had never met anybody else. Now, fortunately for me, as I told you, I was born in 1987. And then in 1988, Deaf President Now happened. This— the story you just told about I. King Jordan. That was 1988. And so it was just one year after my birth. They actually— my parents didn't know I was deaf until 1988. I was one year old when they found that out. There were no— because I wasn't reacting to ambulances zooming past the house. I slept through noise and my parents were wondering why. How is it that Martin continues to sleep through all of this commotion? And they finally had me tested. And came to know that I was deaf. So I was 1 at the time, and Deaf President Now was happening. It was widespread on the news. There was information all over America in the media, and the world knew of Deaf President Now. Deaf people were signing. They were visible, and they were proud of their deafness. They were saying, "It's okay. We have rights. We can do all of these things." And my parents were impressed. Seeing what they saw with those role models involved in Deaf President Now, the level of discussion and discourse they were having, the television programming. So this was before the internet, remember, there was no Facebook or social media, but they had an opportunity. So your opportunities to see deaf people were limited only to what was streamed on television. But my parents were inspired by what they saw and they felt, Martin will be okay. 'Let's learn to sign.' And so they took their first sign language class. My first language is ASL. So at the age of 1, they started exposing me to sign language, and the rest is history. So I think it's important that there are deaf role models for parents to see that deaf people out there are successful. They establish companies. They are educators. They have wonderful careers. There are deaf individuals in politics and deaf people in a variety of different fields. So it's important to see that and allow those parents to understand that, oh, deaf people can work. Deaf people have success in their lives. That it's not something that they must be fearful of. Deafness is okay. It's fine. There's no problem with being deaf. Yeah, I'll leave it at that.

And you know, for people listening to this show, English speaking, who can understand what I'm saying, from the deaf community in Japan, or of course in the United States, but anywhere in the world, but right now we're talking about Japan. Just know that President Obama wanted to make a statement when he was president about his belief that people with disabilities could do anything. When you went to the White House, when I went to the White House, the West Wing of the White House is where the Oval Office is, where the President is. And when you walked in, there was a receptionist table right there. And my friend Leah Katz-Hernández was the receptionist that you would have to ask if you wanted to meet the President or any dignitary on that floor. And Leah Katz-Hernandez is deaf, completely deaf. Think about that. President Obama, that's who he had when you walked in there, that you would have to say, "I'd like to meet the president." And so I am telling you, if you're listening to this show, I find jobs for people in engineering, mathematics, all areas. I have someone that works for me who is deaf. I've had many deaf employees. You can do anything anyone else can do. You're equal to anyone else. You know the thing I— King Jordan used to say? The only thing I can't do that you do is hear. Meaning, you can do anything. You can be in any position. So I just wanted to mention that, which brings me To you, Megumi, what do you think about the question that I asked? Do you believe parents in Okinawa or throughout Japan, do you believe they feel shame if they have a child who is deaf?

Sure. And my parents are deaf, so I was born in a deaf family. So my story and my perspective also might be a little bit different. I think that if hearing parents have a deaf child, they might initially wonder, "What do I do?" They might have that fear. But it's important to think about who's giving the information about the deafness, that the baby is deaf. I think that's the key factor here, because when a baby is born, most hearing people think of it as a negative when they say, "Oh, your baby is deaf. Your baby cannot hear." 'Your baby cannot speak.' It's a negative connotation, right? But I believe that if a child is born and is deaf and immediately the hearing parents are told, 'It's— there's captioning, there is sign language, there are deaf professionals.' If it's given to them with a positive sense in the environment and the information is shared with them by a professional in a positive manner, the experience might be quite different. Again, my family is all deaf, but I have friends, deaf individuals who have hearing parents, and their upbringing was different. Because if the— if hearing parents are under the impression that the deafness of their child is negative, they strip the confidence from their child away, meaning that that child struggles, struggles with an identity. They feel less than. Their identity is lacking. Martin describes that his parents were hearing but immediately went to learn sign language when they found out about his deafness, and they progressed in a positive manner. So now you see that Martin is a confident, successful man. And so I want to go back to— I think it's the environment and who and how the information is provided to those parents that impacts the deaf baby's life the most.

Megumi, in Okinawa and throughout Japan, and then Martin, feel free to add in any thoughts you have about this, how many people who are deaf do you see employed in competitive jobs like the computer industry or accounting or receptionist or anything of that nature. How many people do you see employed?

A percentage? I'm not great with statistics. I don't know that I could give you a percentage, but I can tell you that more are employed now than in the past. In my parents' time, Deaf individuals did a lot with carpentry and woodworking. They did textiles and mending of fabric. They were often the seamstresses. But now, we are noticing deaf individuals in the computer fields, in IT. I'm seeing deaf individuals in technology, in education. More and more, the fields that deaf individuals are working in is growing. But Joyce, I want to say, compared to the hearing population, work is still limited for the deaf community. And I think that becomes— that comes from the perception by hearing people that deaf people can't, that they are limited by their deafness. It's a perception by the hearing community?

Why I thought it probably would be difficult, Megumi, is when you were telling me video relay, you know, is limited. So if it is limited, that would impact a person's ability to be employed and work well at a company. So that, you know, that and many things. I agree with what you said. Uh, Martin, what about you? What do you think about what I ask?

Megumi, I think, said what I was going to say, but Japan does have a law requiring companies to hire 2 point— is it 1 or 2.3% of their workforce as people with disabilities? And so Japan has that as a law, therefore companies are hiring people and deaf people are getting employment in large companies thanks to that law now, but the deaf person is hired and then it's like the company forgets about them. It's a numbers thing at that point. They're not providing information access to the deaf person. I have to, you know, wonder, are they providing interpreters on the job? Are they providing training, or are they hiring the person as a number in some lesser position, and the deaf person then is hitting glass ceilings, unable to succeed and unable to really feel satisfied and progress in their career. Unfortunately, I think that these deaf individuals might be stuck in the same job, and they're hired as a number for companies. Companies are looking to attain that 2.1%, uh, but the access to information is not there. Often Deaf people aren't getting things that they need. They're brushed to the side and communication, the water cooler chat, information in meetings, all of that, the deaf person is not privy to that. Trainings, there's no interpreter. Deaf people instead are just observing and learning by that. And deaf people could do so much more if they had access to the information. I think the access to information is the number one barrier right now. Whether it applies to school or family or work, access to information is the number one barrier. Unfortunately, the deaf people are not getting that access that they need through interpreters and through captioning.

Yes, because when I was in Japan, the people that I met who were deaf were not working in like IT, finance, accounting. Now, this was a few years ago. But only, I think, 4 years ago, they were more working in like a bakery or, you know, those type of positions. So if a company owns some type of subsidiary, they could still count those numbers. Do you know what I mean? I think the biggest problem is what you said, Martin. Enforcement. You know, you can have a law. The ADA is enforced. You know, you have to do this or you're going to be paying really millions of dollars if you're a company in penalties. But when it isn't enforced, it really doesn't impact companies that much. Do you know what I mean? And I think you made a very good point. If you do hire someone, but then you put them off to the side, no matter what the job is, and you don't provide services or even work with them in their career, then that, of course, is going to significantly limit employment opportunities. And, you know, I also think it's so important that you have sign language. Megumi, do you have any idea how many interpreters you think there are in Japan?

Certified interpreters, you're asking? Yes. 3,000. About 3,000 interpreters.

Mm-hmm. Which is not very much for the number of people in Japan.

Correct. Correct. And I'd like to back up, if I may, to add. Yes, yes. Thank you. Talking about work and employment for individuals who are deaf being limited, we also need to look back at education opportunities, right? Here in Japan, universities are providing only limited interpretation services. So maybe I want to become a teacher, or maybe I want to become a nurse. I'll only have limited opportunities for access. Whereas at Gallaudet, I could do any major I wanted. There were interpreters provided for any class, any major, any program. So that allows me to work in any field. But in Japan, it's not the same. In Japan, our deaf students go to university and maybe they aspire to be a business leader, but if there's no interpreting service provided to them there, they have to give up that dream and choose another major. So they're limited in what they can do. So I wanted to bring up the education system. We're talking about employment, but I think we have to go back to education and realize that access to education impacts potential employment. Compared to America, ASL, American Sign Language, is a language in America. However, in Japan, we are still thought of— those of us who use Japanese Sign Language, it's thought of as just gesturing because there's not enough research on the language. There is not enough studies on the language. We haven't yet had the opportunity to have interpreters to be with us so that we can do the research and do the studies. In America, you have the ADA and you have the law there. So if I want to research a language, I ask for an interpreter, the interpreter comes with me, and therefore I can research the language. I can understand the spoken English, will you say. But in Japan, we don't have the access to the interpreters to be able to do the research on the language, to have the language then formalized. And I think also, talking about my major in interpreting at Gallaudet, I was learning to be a language interpreter, learning to be a linguist. I was focusing on language. I was analyzing the language and comparing how words are chosen between the languages. In Japan, though, it's more of a focus on welfare for interpreters. So they're focusing on the hearing only. The training for interpreters in Japan is different. It's focused on the welfare and well-being of the deaf community versus on the actual linguistics and the work that's done. So again, all of this impacts individuals' opportunities for employment. And it goes back to education. We must improve education before we can improve employment.

Well, I want to say something. I want to say, first of all, I am so impressed with both of you. You know, Megumi, you are a trailblazer. And Martin, you went to Japan and learned all of this. You know, you two are a true champion. No question about it. If you— I'm really glad you brought that up, Megumi, about the education. Because if you don't have the education, how could you then move into a job in IT or teaching or, you know, business or the different areas that you brought up? Yeah, that is a really good point because it's very difficult to learn, as you know, when you don't have a sign language interpreter. You are one of these brilliant, unusual people that as you went even through high school, you didn't have an interpreter at all, and still you learned. I mean, you obviously, you know, have overcome significant barriers. I'm very impressed and proud of you for what you do. I wanted to ask you, in Japan. Do you feel hearing parents of a child who is deaf, do you feel they encourage their child to learn sign language? I'll ask you first, Martin. Or do you believe that they, no, want them instead to read lips? What would you say about that?

In general, there's a tendency for parents when a deaf baby is born, the first thing they do is ask for advice. And that advice oftentimes comes from a doctor, the first person that they ask for advice, whether they're in America or in Japan. And doctors have that huge influence on the decisions that parents make immediately, right then and there, at that point in time, parents are influenced by the medical system and doctors. Now, doctors may understand that signing is important, but many do not, unfortunately. So what that means is they immediately jump to technology, and they advise parents about cochlear implants, and they advise parents on fixing the deafness to hearing aids, and they advise and encourage parents to do these things and use technology. And sometimes they say that you should not sign because the doctors feel as though encouraging sign language will impact the baby's ability to learn speech. Now, many doctors say these kinds of things, and so that information is incorrect. It's wrong. Cochlear implants are not a 100% guarantee to fix a deaf person's hearing. They do not make a deaf baby hearing. It helps improve audition, but it does not make a deaf baby hearing. That child will still be deaf and miss out on information. They will miss out on language acquisition. Sometimes cochlear implants, even after 5 and 6 years, still do not allow a child to have access to language acquisition. Additionally, another false truth there is about if you sign, then a baby, a child will not speak well, and that is not true. By doing both signing and speaking to a child, a deaf person can do both of those things, and they're able to acquire both language. There's research to prove this, that with an implant or without an implant, using both languages simultaneously is the best possible approach for a deaf child. Signing is the only 100% guarantee because it's visual and provides visual access. The child cannot miss it. It's visual. So if you depend upon technology, it's a gamble. Will my child hear? Will it be successful? It's a gamble. Whereas with sign language, you're not gambling. You're providing access. A deaf child— so with a child, do you want to gamble on their future? I'd have to say no. We want children to be successful, and therefore I think sign language should happen right away. It's sad, but doctors are not sharing that information with hearing parents. Hearing parents are often influenced to believe that they should give their child a cochlear implant and they'll be raised to be fine. And in some cases, Joyce, that's true, but there are other cases where that doesn't happen. And that critical period for language acquisition is missed. That happens from birth until the age of 5. That is a critical period. And unfortunately, it's missed. And if it's— if children are not exposed to language during that time, they struggle through the rest of their lives. And it starts back at that— in that delivery room. When that information is given by the medical professionals.

Megumi, do you want to add to that?

I apologize, I could go on and on, but I know we are limited on time here.

Well, I'm going to give you 2 minutes because we certainly don't want to run over, but I still want to hear what you have to say.

Certainly, Joyce. Martin said a number of things here, and we in the deaf community I don't want to say that we're against cochlear implants and speaking, but I think it's important to ensure that there is a foundational language established for children and that signing happens first. And if that deaf individual wants to use a more oral approach and choose to speak later in life, they can, but it's critical that there's a foundational language introduced very early on. Think about it. If hearing babies are born and they're not given access to English, how will they go through life? How will they learn a secondary language if they don't have a first language, right? They'll miss out on lots of things. The concept is the same. So Deaf individuals are visual. So the language must be visual. So if you give access to a language that is visual, the child has a first language, And just like Martin has, he can— those children can then pick up second and third different languages because they have a foundation of a first language. So I think we have to think about this from a perspective of language and not hearing status. When you have a language, you're able to do things, but without language, you don't even have an identity. So if you're focusing on the I can't hear, I can't do, then you have nothing. Rather, if you have a language, you're able to stand up and be independent and think on your own and have wants and dreams. And I want to take that focus away from the ear, away from the hearing and the audition, and focus back on the environment, the language, the visual cues that are being given to that baby allowing them to have success.

Well, thank you, and I want to thank you, Megumi and Martin, for being with us. It was just my pleasure to have you, and I know this show will be heard because we'll be sending the podcast to Gallaudet and the National Association for the Deaf and National Technical Institute for the Deaf and all the disability rights groups, and of course the deaf community and the business world. I mean, I, I just want you all to share this podcast with everyone. And I also want to thank Richard Roberts and the State Department, because without him this would not have happened. Uh, and you know, every day he's impacting lives by what he does. Uh, and Voice America, and our engineer Josh. I so appreciate what you did to enable us to have this show. So I will say in closing, first of all, I love all of you, and I hope I'll get to see you again. But I want to pass on to you a message from Yoshiko Dart, who again, you probably know since you know of disability rights, that her husband Justin Dart, who you will see his photograph, if you see that photograph of President Bush signing the ADA, you see a man seated up there in a wheelchair with a cowboy hat, and that's Justin Dart Jr. He passed away several years ago, but Justin and Yoshiko went around the United States on their own, their own money, 3 times talking to disability groups to get behind the ADA being signed. And that's what he spent his life doing. He's a true hero in the disability rights community. And Yoshiko has carried that on. So Yoshiko had a message that I want to share with all of you because I end every show with a quote. So she says, Japanese community, Power. Japanese community, lead on. Martin, lead on. Megumi, lead on. And I would say to everyone to lead on, carry on that power, that passion for quality of life and employment for all people from the deaf community. So thank you so much. This is Joyce Bender, America's Voice, on Disability Matters on VoiceAmerica.com. Goodbye to everyone in the Japanese culture and world, but I'll see you again soon. Thank you.

Voice America would like to thank you for tuning in. Please join us next Tuesday at 11 AM Pacific time and 2 PM Eastern time for another installment of Disability Matters right here on the Voice America variety channel. We are the leader in live internet talk radio. VoiceAmerica.com. Goodbye.