Tom Doran: Helping Health Customers and Members Obtain Health Services

Welcome to Disability Matters with your host Joyce Bender. All comments, views, and opinions expressed on the show are solely those of the host, guest, and callers. Now the host of Disability Matters, here's Joyce Bender.

Hi everyone, welcome to the show. This is Joyce Bender with Disability Matters. On Voice America. I hope you're having a great day. Thank you so much for being such loyal listeners. You all know I've been doing this for 22 years, and I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't have all of you. So thank you. And to all of the countries around the world, there are 73 countries with listeners. Right now from, you know, France to China to Australia. And in some countries, there is only one listener, especially some of the remote countries. And, you know, I say all the time, even if you're that one person, regardless of where it is, Saudi Arabia on to other countries that aren't as well known. You're that one person, that one person, you can make a difference. You know why? Because you need to spread that news to others to give other people with disabilities hope and, and quality of life. So, you know, My hat's off to you, and thank you, thank you. I always have to say hi to Richard Roberts, who is no longer with the U.S. State Department, but that is who I was with when I went to South Korea and Okinawa, and he became such a great disability rights advocate. Hello to you, Richard. You know I love you. And my special shout-out Just think, Yoshiko, now you can see me on YouTube. Yoshiko, lead on. My special shout out to you, Yoshiko. And of course, to my sponsor, Highmark. Such a great company. Really, you know, you all know that 20, 30 years ago, that's how I started the company. If I had not had this partnership with Highmark, the thousands of people with disabilities that I have found employment for would not have happened. So that's why I am even more excited today to have as our guest Tom Doran, who is the president of Highmark Health Plan and just a wonderful person. Tom, how are you?

I am great, Joyce. So good to be with you. And every time I hear the story of kind of how your company began and all the impact you've had, it's inspiring. So it's an absolute pleasure to be here, and thank you for the invitation.

My pleasure. And I know it is amazing. It is amazing that, you know, I go to Highmark, to that time Bill Lowery, when he was the CEO of Blue Cross, and said, I have this dream, and would you bring on contract 6 people with disabilities, you know, You pay me the hourly rate, I'll pay the salary and the benefits. And now here we are. But what's more amazing is that Bill took me to lunch with John Brause and said, keep it going. And he took me with Ken Maloney, who already knew me, but keep it going. And then they took me to meet Bill Winkenwerder. And then here's David. No other company, and I'm serious, no other company can say we have had a CEO that stood behind a person employing people with disabilities 30 years. You have to admit that is remarkable.

That is, that's awesome.

So Tom, how about we begin by you sharing your story with our listeners, like where you grew up, and your career with Grumman Aerospace. Wow, I was really impressed. Yeah, so go ahead.

I'll be happy to. So, um, so again, my name is Tom Doran. I'm the president of the, of Highmark Health Plan here, Pittsburgh, PA, but I grew up in East Brunswick, New Jersey. So that's the central part of New Jersey. I went to, you know, Catholic grammar school and high school, and I went to Princeton, uh, to become an aerospace engineer. And I loved, you know, and I still love physics, chemistry, calculus, all that stuff that you absolutely need to, to enjoy in order to be an aerospace engineer. And got a job in Bethpage, Long Island, worked there for 2 or 3 years doing all sorts of different things, everything from flight tests to robotics to control system engineering. So some really fun projects. But, you know, the defense industry really wasn't for me. So I got an applied math master's degree and then I transitioned to become an actuary and I've been doing that ever since. And that's how I transitioned from aerospace engineering over to insurance, which is quite a leap, to be honest, you know.

Wow, it is. And I must tell you, I was so impressed, you know, when people would meet you. I know right away they'd think healthcare. You know, all healthcare background. And first of all, Princeton, wow, that's impressive. But then when I saw you were in aerospace as an engineer, I'm thinking, wow, now how did he get— how did you get from there to going into actuarial? By the way, for all my listeners in the United States and around the world, so you know, He hired 2 people from Bender as actuaries. 2.

Yeah.

One who is blind with autism. So, 2. And I want you to know that because this company is the real deal. But okay, tell me why you made that move.

So, when I thought about what I enjoyed doing, it was really about the math. And so after getting my applied math master's degree, I was like, "Okay, what else can I do with this degree from a career perspective?" And then somebody introduced me, one of a Princeton alum that I knew basically introduced me to consulting and actuarial mathematics. And I was like, "What the heck is this? Why did nobody ever talk to me about this before?" And then they said, "Oh, if you pass calculus, we can pay you more money 'cause you're worth more if you pass." probability and statistics, you know, I'm like, oh my goodness, I get, I get to study and show people what I know and then apply it at work every day to kind of complicated benefit problems, be it retiring medical or different healthcare problems. And that was, you know, actually pretty enjoyable for me. I like the fact that I had to study and learn something new, but then apply it every day and then work as a consultant helping employers all across America. Trying to figure out where their costs are headed and why. So for me, it was all about math and the structure by which you become an actuary. And that kind of excited me. And I viewed the— I'm a fellow in the Society of Actuaries. I viewed that journey as in essence me getting my kind of applied PhD, if you will, in actuarial mathematics. And then I've been doing actuarial work in a variety of different ways for a variety of different companies from then forward. So it's been fun. It's been really fun.

Yeah, you definitely went forward 'cause you're the president of Highmark Health.

Yeah, now we got a whole bunch of actuaries working with me.

Yeah, that's right. You know, I wanna tell you, I just read this article. It was, actually it was about artificial intelligence and then about what companies will be looking for, which of course will be people with at least a wherewithal. Of AI. You know, there's always that hardcore technical part in the computer field, and then there are these others that support that. But do you know that one of the skills there that they are having a hard time finding is math?

Wow. Wow.

That's surprising. I read this article. They're looking for math. Got to have math because they're not finding enough people with that solid mathematical background. But, you know, I wasn't as surprised because sadly, over the years, even people I've met, you know, like nieces or nephews, right, none of them want to go into math. None of them. You know, math is— I, I feel like math is it. That's, you know, it's right in the core of knowledge. I mean, it's, it's This is it.

It's a universal language. It's a universal language. I really like, as you're getting on the phone, you know, on this call welcoming people from all over the world, math is kind of a universal ability to communicate in, you know, in facts and figures. And I do think, you know, that's one of the reasons why I liked it so much. Usually there's a right answer, usually there's a wrong answer, but it's also the ability to communicate very effectively with a variety of different people. So I really enjoyed, and I still enjoy learning about math and, kind of the evolution of it. It's really one of my— I don't want to say ongoing hobbies, but it is. But it is.

So I would say to any young people with disabilities, although this applies to all young people, but you're always looking for that, what could separate me? Like, what could put me ahead that I have a better chance of being selected? Well, One of them is mathematics. I mean, you know, I would really, you know, besides data science, there's a connection with all this. So what do you think about that, Tom?

I agree with you. I think that, you know, great example is like, you know, we're hiring a couple folks from your organization to help us, you know, an actuarial perspective. We're always looking for actuaries. We're always looking for underwriters, which is kind of applied actuarial mathematics actually on a case level. We're always looking for talent that again can help us from a mathematical perspective. That is not uncommon. We're constantly looking for folks who can help us get better. And I think math is that stepping stone that can really help differentiate you. I agree with you 100%.

Yeah. I would even say if you've graduated, but of course you can go on to study more, get your master's. I would lean in that direction. That's my advice. That's what I would do. But anyway, okay, so Tom, who by the way, I love Tom. He is a wonderful— you know what it is about him, Tom? You have goodness. That's what I would say.

Thank you.

You have goodness. But Tom, let's talk about Highmark Health, my favorite company. How large is Highmark Health, and how many people report to you now?

Well, um, well, Highmark Health is over $30 billion in terms of annualized revenue. We are a very different company than when 30 years ago when you're talking to Blue Cross of Western Pennsylvania. The insurance company itself is about $24 billion. The health plan is about $24 billion. We also have a dental subsidiary called United Concordia Dental, a couple billion dollars. We have a stop-loss company, HM Insurance Group, which is about $1.5 billion. And then we have Allegheny Health Network, which is, you know, somewhere between $4 and $5 billion in annualized revenue, which is a hospital system here in western Pennsylvania that serves, you know, the greater, the greater western Pennsylvania marketplace up to Erie and all throughout Allegheny County. So it's a very diverse company when it comes to the people and the products that we sell. You know, it is a very— it's a wonderful company. I've been here over 8 years now. Enjoyed my time here. It's a wonderful, wonderful group of people with a wonderful mission in terms of taking care of our members. In terms of overall the health plan, in terms of, you know, if you think about our operations as well as our salespeople and all that, we probably have about 11,000 people in the employment of our health plan proper, be they operations, IT. You know, we're working with the engine. We have a company called NGIN, another company, about $1 billion that they do IT infrastructure as well as claim call and service. And then, you know, there's all the salespeople, product development people, actuaries, underwriters. You know, it's a very, like I said, it's a very diverse group of folks that we work with here at Highmark as it relates to delivering products and services for our members.

Highmark, $30 billion. Is that with everything? Is that with AHN and everything?

Yeah, that's everything.

A little over.

A little over.

Wow. Yeah. I mean, yeah. How many employees would that be approximately?

I think if we include AHN, Allegheny Health Network, it's about 40, over 40,000 employees. Because again, I think a lot of those, a lot of our employees actually are in the delivery of care at Allegheny Health Network. And again, if you talk about just the health plan proper, you know, it's more the operations folks, about 11,000 people in total work on health plan-specific items.

You know, it's unbelievable. Yeah. How big Highmark is. A lot of people don't realize, they don't realize that. They don't, but. You are definitely a force to be reckoned with. So what is the size of your membership? Yeah. And geographically, where are you located? Where all— I mean, there was a time it was only Pittsburgh, but that day has changed.

That day has definitely changed. We are, we are a Blue Cross Blue Shield associate, you know, a company that has the Blue Cross and Blue Shield brands. So we operate in 4 states: West Virginia, Delaware, Pennsylvania, and in a couple markets in New York, the Buffalo market and the Albany market. And in essence, we are the, you know, we have the rights to use the Blue Cross Blue Shield logo for those markets. We are the provider of care and services in those marketplaces. We have about 5.1 million members that we serve. And some of those folks are all over the country. Like if we sell— if we have one of our clients is PNC Bank here in Pittsburgh, but they have folks all over the country. So we insure PNC Bank, who in turn, you know, we then care for all those members all throughout the country. And so we have what we call a national accounts business. That's of the 5.1 million members. It's 1.6 million people who are associated with national account customers like PNC Bank. Like, you know, others, you know, Giant Eagle and other large employers throughout our footprint. You know, so it's a constantly evolving landscape. But it's, you know, to your point, we're a big company. Yeah, big company. And we got employer needs that we meet, be they national accounts or be they small group, be they under 50 lives. We try and provide a very diverse portfolio. We are in the Medicaid line of business, Medicare, for, you know, individual products through the Affordable Care Act. We provide large group services. We also have a third-party administrator, which is a TPA or a third-party administrator, to help some employers who don't want to buy insurance. They just want to provide— they just want our services. So we provide a broad array of products and solutions in the healthcare landscape. It's, again, it's a wonderful company to be a part of, to really deploy those, those solutions on behalf of our members.

And you know what I, I have noticed that I think it's wonderful and yet unique that at the top across the board, you were saying how it's such a good company and it is, but isn't it amazing that across the board, the whole way across the board at the top that the leadership has been supportive of hiring people with disabilities? In other words, at some companies this is Sad, but if the CEO, maybe they have Red Cross, or maybe it's, you know, diabetes, or like with me, hiring people with disabilities. Sometimes when that person leaves, so goes the support. And yet for 30 years it has been across the board. What do you attribute to that?

Wow. Well, first of all, Joyce Bender, I think it's the clarity of your mission and the impact that the folks have had. I just think it works. Fundamentally, we put people in a position for success for themselves, but also to help the company succeed. So I do think, you know, it is really the mission, the mission of both companies and then the practical reality of setting people up for success, but also helping the business succeed too. So I just think it's a very natural collaboration, very natural marriage, if you will. I use that word, but I think it's a very natural collaboration that's been very effective.

Yeah, I had a neurodiverse candidate who now works at Highmark, and I've known him forever, and he used to be at Anthem, and he was the most wonderful person. But when Anthem had their big layoff years ago. He then lost his job and he went to a consulting company and he went to the consulting company IT and was there for a while. And then, of course, something happened with them. So anyway, he— we were marketing him and Highmark interviewed him, loved him, and called us and said, hey, he's going to hear from us. We're going to extend an offer. We're so excited. So we call and tell him this and he says, What time? We said around 3:00. Oh, I'm going to go now. I have to go grocery shopping and I have all these other things I have to do and I want to make sure I'm back. Well, when you know it, Heimar called him at 1:00 instead of 3:00. Oh, he took the call. He was so excited. And then he called us. You know what he said? After I hung up, I looked up at the sign. Remember I told you he was shopping, and I said, this is the last time I'll have to go to the food bank.

Wow.

I know. Yeah, I mean, it just really hit all of us. So you don't think about all of that, you know what I mean? You don't think about all of that. Um, and with that, we're gonna go to break. I know that we soon are going to have, um, Jennifer with us. Jennifer, you are not there yet, correct? Okay, just wanted to make sure. Uh, but anyway, we're going to go to break and then we'll be right back with Tom. This is Joyce Bender, America's Voice, where disability matters, at voiceamerica.com. Don't go away, we'll be right back.

At Highmark Health, we believe what makes us unique makes us better. Our differences broaden our perspectives and foster a variety of skills to complement each other, creating a stronger and more vibrant workforce. It's this belief that earned us recognition as the Best Place to Work for the 10th year for individuals with disabilities in a survey by the American Association of People with Disabilities and Disability:IN. We'll continue to celebrate and benefit from the inclusion of all people. To find out more, visit highmarkhealth.org.

Are you currently receiving SSDI or SSI and wanting to work? Did you know there is a free Social Security program called Ticket to Work to help you try work without risking your benefits? My Employment Options is an authorized SSA Employment Network specializing in work-at-home and local job placement in 47 states. Our clients receive a personal counselor to help to find the best job fit and a staff-certified benefits counselor for help with Ticket to Work protections. Ready to try working? Apply for free job placement help at myemploymentoptions.com. Since 1985, Bender Consulting Services has served as a national leader in advancing employment of people with disabilities, including veterans with disabilities, with private sector companies and federal government agencies. Bender assists customers with achieving their diversity and workforce inclusion initiatives by tapping into a talent pool of individuals seeking professional positions, including those in the STEM fields. In addition, Bender services include disability employment consulting, training, and technology accessibility through their high-tech line of service. For more information, please visit www.benderconsult.com. Everyone has unique abilities, and with ABLE NOW, individuals with disabilities are able to save money while maintaining certain benefits such as Medicaid. ABLE Now is a tax-advantaged savings program specifically designed for people with disabilities. Open an account online today and start saving for the things that are important to you. To learn if you or someone you know is eligible, visit ablenow.com. ABLE Now is administered by Virginia529. Streaming live, the leader in internet talk radio, voiceamerica.com.

You're listening to Disability Matters. Now please welcome back the host of Disability Matters. Here's Joyce Bender.

Hey, welcome back everyone. If you just tuned in, we're talking to Tom Doran from Highmark, the president of Highmark Health. So great to have him on. The show with us. You know, when I was saying about how Highmark has stood behind me for 30 years, I have to tell you this story about the present CEO, David Holmberg. I went and met with— I go out with the CEO once a year. So, I go and it's always toward the end of the year. So, I went out and we had breakfast and he looked at me and he said, you know, Joyce, I don't see enough wheelchairs. What are all the service dogs? And I said, David, if I could get this on video, I would be showing this across America to every CEO. That's what I mean about Highmark and about David. You know, who says that? Sadly, wouldn't it be great if everyone was saying that? But as you all know, 70% of people with disabilities are still not counted in the workforce. It's like Highmark's like this, you know, all by themself. I mean, it's great, it's terrible. It's great Highmark does this, it's terrible that why are other companies, and other companies are hiring people, It's just not like this, not like 30 years, every CEO standing behind, increasing, calling, you know, just like with Tom. Tom had a meeting for me at Highmark with his whole staff, his whole staff. And that is how the actuary got hired, because that person was at the meeting. And of course, Tracy Sala is like fireball. She, you know, she makes it happen. But my point is, if you had not done that, just think, those people maybe wouldn't have jobs today. So wonderful. And by the way, one other thing about Highmark, how they've expanded. Watch the Buffalo Bills and you're going to see Highmark Stadium. Every time if I'm watching a game, I say, There it is. There's Highmark Stadium. I have to go there sometime just so I can get my photograph in Highmark Stadium. But was that like a big surprise to everyone when that happened? That was a big—

yeah, that was a big deal. It still is a big deal. Highmark Stadium is definitely, you know, as we grew into the New York marketplace, that affiliation with the Buffalo Bills has really been wonderful in terms of making sure that people in the in the New York marketplace even know what Highmark is and who we are and what we stand for. And we've had a great partnership with the Buffalo Bills over the last several years. It's been great. It's been great.

And I love the Buffalo Bills and I love all of you in New York, but like, don't be thinking that we here in Pittsburgh are not black and gold. We are still black and gold. But that is a great team, great people. But it's just so exciting to me that you have that. Tom, for other CEOs or presidents listening to the show right now, or just anyone around the world, if they would say to you, "Oh, I've never hired people with disabilities before, we feel uncomfortable," what are the benefits? What would you say?

You know, very simply, I would say that the benefit is diversity, diversity of thought, diversity of inclusion. I think that the solutions that you will come up with as a company are vastly improved—

Recording stopped.

—by including all the voices around the table. And I do think that when I think about what it is that when you're designing products and services for people, having all voices at the table, making sure that all of your potential members, all of your potential buyers are going to be well served by the products that you and solutions that you put forward, I think is really important. So, I just think that, again, diversity, I would just say broadly diversity, I think gives you an added edge as a company. Using people to their ability and basically helping your company improve with that additional thought process and diversity, I think, is really what I would tell you. Yeah, that's why I would also say, you know, Joyce Bender, apologize for that. I would also say that, you know, some of our folks that are disabled in terms of their work ethic and their ability to impact the company, you know, is inspiring too. So I do think, again, you know, giving people an opportunity, but then watching the fruits of that throughout the company, I think is, again, you know, maybe another reason why I would tell other CEOs, other presidents to really give this some strong consideration and act on it. You won't be sorry. You won't be sorry.

Well, we have people that have worked for Highmark for 28 years, 20 years, 15 years. I'm saying that, and it's not because people with disabilities are superheroes. It's because if you've been left out, no matter what your group is, when you get a job, oh, you're not gonna let that go. It's a treasure. And as a matter of fact, David, only a couple weeks ago, he met one of my employees, CJ, who has cerebral palsy. He's in a wheelchair, and he looked at David, and he works out of Tennessee remote for Mick Malin, and he said, you know, Mr. Holmberg, there's only one thing I wish. He said, what's that? I wish I lived here because then I could go to work every day at Highmark in the office. And boy, did he get a big smile on his face hearing that. But you know, that's because I always tell people, hire someone with a disability, and yes, you will have retention, and it's going to be because of what I just said— gratitude. And retention is money. It's in, you know, it's a return on investment. So it's, it's, is the right thing to do, but it's not pity, it's not charity, you know, that it is helping your business. And just as you said, Tom, Don't you see employee engagement?

Joyce, I'll share something personal with you all and your listeners. You know, I have a son who's, you know, Asperger's, and, you know, he has an associate's degree and then got a job at the Pittsburgh Zoo here in town. He is one of the happiest employees in America. He goes to work an hour early. Because he wants to say hi to the people and the animals. And, you know, he's worked in the horticulture department, he's worked in client relations. He is basically going to do whatever they ask him to do. And, you know, I think that the Pittsburgh Zoo gets a wonderful employee. My son gets independence and autonomy. And, you know, it is a wonderful marriage that the Pittsburgh Zoo has, you know, has provided. I do think You know, it is amazing to me when there's a good match, if you will. And I think that that is something I would want people to hear and, you know, take advantage of.

I agree with you and many of our employees. We have one employee that went to work at your distribution center on an interview. They didn't call us back. And this was— this made me very proud because it was a person with a significant learning disability. And you're supposed to call us after the interview. He didn't call us. Finally, we got him. Guess where he was? He was still there. He started working.

He was at work. I was going to say he was at work.

He was on the interview. So he just started, hey, since you showed me how to do this and then He went the next day. He wasn't even, you know, he wasn't hired the whole way through. So we had to tell him, come home. And of course, Highmark's so great, they said, well, you know, we're going to pay him. And that's, you know, whenever he was there. But see, the thing is what you just said, gratitude. And oh, what a great trait that is when someone has gratitude. Um, we were talking earlier about this level of success, but doesn't it seem to you this thing I talk about, goodness, goes across the board at the top? Doesn't it seem like that to you?

It really does. You know, at our company, you know, we act with a high degree of integrity. I think it's something to do with our mission statement, the fact that we're a nonprofit company. Joyce Bender, I do think that kind of combination naturally attracts a certain type of individual to be both leaders and employees. And I think that it comes across in how we act and what we do. And I think that, you know, our partnership with, with Bender and Associates, that, that's absolutely part of it, you know.

Well, it's wonderful. You know, when people are thinking about looking at careers, of course, as I said, AI and mathematics. What do you think about going into healthcare?

Well, I think, you know, with the aging of America, you know, healthcare and healthcare expertise is definitely going to be something that from a demographic perspective continues to be on the rise and there will be continued need for that. You know, it depends on kind of what, what skills, you know, somebody's going to go, go and get and attract. Um, you know, is it pharmaceutical expertise? Is it, you know, care at the facility itself? You know, there's, I think there's always going to be a need for, you know, hands-on patients for, for instance. But, you know, I think about, you know, pharmaceutical expertise, you know, 5 years is going to be a need for more of that. Um, you know, I do think, you know, healthcare is a wonderful, wonderful field and a need that, you know, we all have and we're all consumers of. And I think that, you know, if you're thinking about a career in a field, what it might look like in the future, I think healthcare is going to be, you know, a bigger part of our world as we go forward.

Yes, me too. All right. Well, it's time for, yes, Mathis on the Mic. We love this part of the show with Mathis on the Mic. Jennifer, how are you today? I think Mathis is on mute. There we go. That's quite all right.

I have to use my phone today, and so I couldn't find the mute/unmute.

Anyway, I'm here. Well, we're happy that you're here. We're thrilled that you're here. So, Jennifer, what news do you have for us? You know, I'm always saying, I never know what you're going to say because it's every day. It's every day something. So what is it today you're going to talk about?

So today is not a new item. Today I just thought it was important to circle back to something that we talked about recently, which is Section 503. And the reason I wanted to circle back to that is because the comments on Department of Labor's proposed rule implementing Section 503 of the Rehab Act, and that rule requires— the statute itself and the rule require federally, uh, well, federal contractors to, to take affirmative actions to employ people with disabilities, um, and that rule has been very, very important for advancing employment of people with disabilities, in part because the federal contractor workforce is enormous. It's about a quarter of the national workforce, and because it actually requires more than just nondiscrimination. It requires actual affirmative steps to do outreach and recruitment and retention and to ensure that you are applying, um, employing people with disabilities in your workforce. And there's a benchmark in that rule that says that 7% of your workforce should be people with disabilities. That's an aspirational goal, that's not, um, a specific requirement, but it's the goal, it's the yardstick that you measure your progress against. And so it is important. I wanna make sure I'm not interfering with a call I've got going on. So that is critically important. The other critically important piece is that it requires contractors to invite job applicants and employees with disabilities to self-identify voluntarily. They don't have to, it's their choice. Um, goes on a separate form, not on the application form. Um, but those two things together, the 7% goal and the voluntary self-identification, are both really critical to ensuring that you can measure, you can understand what progress contractors are making in employing people with disabilities. Both of those things would go away. In this proposed rule that the Department of Labor has put out. Um, if they got rid of those two things— we talked about this, I think, three weeks ago— if they got rid of those things, the rule becomes much less meaningful. It's much harder to measure progress when you don't have anything to measure it against. And so, and when you don't know who is coming into your workforce, who's applying, and who You have no idea how many people with disabilities applied for your jobs, no idea how many people with disabilities are in your workforce. How are you measuring whether you're taking sufficient affirmative steps to employ people with disabilities? So it is important for people to submit their comments. You can submit them on regulations.gov. I find it easiest to just Google Section 503 Proposed Rule, and you'll pull it up that way. That's the easiest way to get to the comment portal, but I wanted to just highlight a couple of templates for people that they can use. One is on DREDF's website, D-R-E-D-F dot org. That's the Disability Rights Education and Defense Fund. They have a nice template on Section 503 you can draw from to submit your comments, your own comments, and And also the Bazelon Center has comments. They are right now on behalf of the CCD, the Consortium of Constituents with Disabilities, but they're open more broadly than that. So we're going to have a draft up on our website. You can look at our website. It should be up in the next day or so. And you could alternatively check our social media. I think it's Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. To— because that will send you to it as well. We have a little bit of a longer template that lays out some of the arguments. So those are things that people can draw from to submit their comments by September 2nd. It's the day after Labor Day, so that's tight. People should— if they are going to be busy during Labor Day weekend, you may want to file them before. So I just wanted to draw people's attention to that.

And first, for all of you listening around the world, in the United States, Jennifer Mathis is so highly esteemed in this country. Anytime the New York Times or someone wants information about mental health, because that's what Bazelon does, you know, policy briefs, uh, they call Jennifer. She is so smart. And when she told me she would be my Mathis on the mic, I was so happy. I tell everyone I have my own Rachel Maddow, Jennifer Mathis. And Jennifer, we so appreciate what you said. But one last thing, it makes a difference. Every single person that makes a comment, correct?

Absolutely. Absolutely. They are going to log every comment. They have to respond to all the significant things in the comments. So it absolutely makes a difference that you submit a comment. If you care about employment of people with disabilities, you should submit a comment.

Okay. Well, thank you so much for joining us, and we'll look forward to talking to you next week. Thank you. Bye-bye. We're so lucky. We're so lucky we have Jennifer. She is so highly thought of in this country. I'm not kidding you. Whether it's TV, New York Times, Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law, that's who they call, Jennifer. So, uh, and I'm honored to be on the board of Bazelon. So you are, as I said, a good person. Joyce Bender, who I think so highly of. Like, you're very trustworthy. So someone has had an incredible impact on you, or more than one person. So who, Tom, is your role model?

I'd say my parents. You know, they're just wonderful people. Uh, you know, my dad has passed, but, you know, lived a life of high integrity., you know, and worked, worked really hard to make the world a better place. He was a controller, New Jersey, a bunch of different companies, but, you know, showed me what hard work and, you know, devotion to family really was all about. My mother is still with us, and she's coming out to Pittsburgh to visit. She still lives in the house that I grew up in. She still works, and she works one day a week. As a librarian. She loves it. I don't think she's ever going to stop. But I do thank my parents first and foremost. And then I would tell you, we talked about some of the people from a professional perspective that you rattled off here at Highmark that I definitely take as role models. David Holmberg, Karen Hanlon, Deb Rice-Johnson. They're just wonderful people, but also good business people as well. And I think they balance both those things very effectively and have helped the organization thrive as well as, you know, treat people with the appropriate way. So, you know, that's how I would answer that question, Joyce. You know, it's a combination of family and people that, you know, I enjoy to have the privilege of working with.

And boy, what a difference that makes, doesn't it? Every day when you go to work, it makes such a difference. And yes, I love every one of the people that you just mentioned, and they are truly amazing when it comes to supporting me, and that means supporting other people with disabilities. Just remember, um, until a person has employment, they are never ever free in this country. They can't buy a car, they can't rent an apartment, they can't live the American dream. Until they have employment. So often people say to me, oh Joyce, it's so wonderful what you do. And my answer is, okay, hire someone. Don't tell me how wonderful I am, although I appreciate it, but hire someone. That's where the rubber meets the road. And I say to all of you watching the show today, hire someone. If you are in a hiring position, that's what's going to make all the difference. So, Tom, what advice do you have for young people living with disabilities facing many obstacles today as they're seeking their way?

Yeah, I guess I would say a couple things. One is, you know, we touched on it briefly in the, in the beginning of our in the beginning of our conversation, find something you enjoy, but a skill that can leverage that. Like if you enjoy math, like I do, go take that to its natural conclusion and figure out how to deploy that in the workforce. If you enjoy computers, you know, there's tons of jobs, quite honestly, that I think are really well suited and served by folks with disabilities. You know, some folks out there are really good at making sure the rules get followed. And I do think that marriage of skills and application, find that personally for you out there. The other thing I would just tell you is don't give up. Don't give up because the reality is you're going to go for a whole bunch of job interviews. You're not going to get a whole bunch. All you need is one. And then once you get that opportunity, you show them what you're really capable of. And I think that'll speak volumes for itself. For itself. Because again, we've talked about that, how some of those folks that are, you know, given an opportunity are grateful for it and act like the valued employees that they are. So I would say those two things, you know, match the skills, you know, and then, you know, don't give up, be persistent.

And I love that, Tom, especially the don't give up I always tell people, don't give up because success could be right around the corner. It's the not giving up. So we end every show with a quote. But first, I have to say, Tom, thank you so much. I know how busy you are for being with all of us today. It was a pleasure having you on the show.

I enjoyed the conversation very much, Joyce Bender. Thank you very much for having me.

Well, we end every show with a quote. And this is from one of the most well-known autistic advocates in the world, Temple Grandin. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yes. And Temple has a quote. I love this quote, which is, I am different, not less. Doesn't that just say it all? I'm different, not less. And stay tuned that we'll be having Temple on this show this year. So we had her on a couple years ago, but now you'll be able to see her when we have her on. And, uh, in the words of Mary Brocker, my message to all of you today is when you go out, remember, choose joy. It will make all the difference. Talk to you all next week.

Voice America would like to thank you for tuning in. Please join us next Tuesday at 11 AM Pacific time and 2 PM Eastern time for another installment of Disability Matters right here on the Voice America variety channel. We are the leader in live internet talk radio. VoiceAmerica.com.