Erchonia Laser Light Therapy | Dr. Trevor Berry on THE DR. JOY KONG PODCAST

A lot of the pain issues, musculoskeletal issues were going away. The inflammation reduced drastically to the point where one of my staff members couldn't really squat down for a couple years. And she was having a brace on and just within 10 minutes of using this laser and she was able to squat and stand up. And then she was like, look. And she took off her bandage, you know, later on that day and she doesn't need it anymore. I mean, that's pretty, pretty dramatic to think that 10 minutes of shining light on somebody could produce that kind of results.

You see it day in and day out, but people that have not been exposed and get exposed to it, they're in tears, they're like, oh my God, this light just did that for me. And you also think of the far reaching effects because then you start to get their pain, chronic pain down now. They start sleeping better, their affect is better. Like it has so much far reaching. They couldn't remember the last time they were out of pain. And then, so then they start to get that zest for life again. It's just such a cool thing. Hello.

Welcome back, Everybody. This is Dr. Joy Kong. And this is a Dr. Joy Kong podcast where I invite some of the most amazing guests in the health and wellness arena to bring to you insights, knowledge, tricks and interesting information on new technology so we can enhance your health and enhance your happiness in life. And today I'm super excited because we're going to cover a subject and that I think is going to be part of the future of medicine, which is light therapy. And with me here is a Dr. Trevor Berry. And Dr. Barry, thank you so much for being here.

Absolute pleasure to be here. We've really been looking forward to this. Dr. Kong, I know it's been a while since we've been able to get our schedules to sync up, but super excited about today. Thanks for having me.

Yes, absolutely. I know you are an expert in light therapy, so photobiomodulations. We'll go delve a little deeper into all these terminology, but I want to introduce you first. So Dr. Barry is a board certified diplomate of neurology through ACNB. He's the founder of Arizona Chiropractic Neurology center and has been in practice since 1997 in Chandler, Arizona. He's an international speaker since 2010 and he lectures on nutrition and functional medicine, laboratory testing, neurological diagnostic testing, functional neurology and low laser therapy. And Dr. Barry Co founded BTB Health Systems and was hired as the Chief Clinical Officer for Applied function Neurology in 2022. He's a published researcher on low level laser therapy and has multiple projects in the field of integrative neurology for brain based conditions such as neurodegeneration and traumatic brain injury. So all these are fascinating subjects and thank you so much for being. Red light therapy has become quite popular. A lot of people are rushing out and buying all kinds of gadgets and even very expensive be and, and I, you know, I know Dr. Ryan Manning who it became an incredible spokesperson for the technology that we're going to be covering because it seems like it's a step above just red light therapy because of the, and, and different light colors and frequencies and seems to have broad range of therapeutic benefits as you know, indicated by FDA approval for various therapies. So that is a huge stamp of approval. And maybe we can start by talking about just the difference between. Well, first of all, let's talk about light therapy, which I do think this is one of the frontiers for medicine because we're actually all energy beings. Whether or not you emit or not, you know, you may think you're a solid, you know, matter to matter, you know, molecule to molecule, but we're actually all made of energy. When you dig deeper into the quantum level, we're just all waves. So, so that is the foundation and, and that probably is part of the reason why light or energy therapy is, is going to have tremendous and drastic effect on health. So maybe tell us a little bit about your understanding of energy therapy and light therapy.

Just we'll have to do a follow up podcast on quantum biology and low level laser therapy because that gets into some really cool stuff. But yeah, it's one of those arenas that I think because we're kind of inundated in this culture of more of the chemistry side, especially on brain based stuff. You know, you hear about these like say depression and they get put on serotonin uptake inhibitors and things like that to try and keep, you know, chemicals in the system longer have effect on that. But really we are, everything's based on energy. You know, mitochondria, the, the power output of, of your cells, that energy that's needed to repair, to function, to work optimally. And so without light, without sunlight, we don't exist as a species. And so we need light and we can tap into that using light devices that emit light and especially coherent light that's parallel and monochromatic. And so what that means is you can harness all of that light energy and get it engineered where all those photons are working together in a pattern, in a coherent pattern. And that's where you really get the best of benefits with light therapies. And that's true laser. So contrast to that, you kind of touched on a lot of these, these devices you see on Amazon or you know, in a magazine on an airplane that are, are typically more affordable. Well, those are LED devices. That's light emitting diodes. And so basically, to oversimplify it, it's like painting a light bulb red. If I took a red light bulb and held it next to you, yeah, you would get some photons absorbed of energy that would be, you know, potentially beneficial. But that's a very inexpensive technology. That's why they're typically more affordable. But just to give you some context, when we do double blind, peer reviewed, like level one FDA studies that are randomized, placebo controlled, that kind of thing, we actually use LED as our sham placebo. So the patients thinking they're getting red laser, but they're actually getting the LED device. And so you can see, I don't want to totally throw LED under the bus because if I'm doing a brain application, I would actually rather people error to the side of the LED low end of the spectrum. And in contrast to these higher powered lasers that actually aren't designed for brain applications, you know, they're designed to heat. Actually most of the high powered laser devices, they don't have FDA clearance as a laser for photochemical activity. They actually all get their FDA clearance as a medical heat lamp. And so that's something, you know, because it's longer wavelengths and that's great. Like when you're doing aesthetic work, say you're trying to take off tissue layers to ablate tissue. Yeah, there's a time and a place for those kind of more of like the surgical end of the high powered lasers. But that's, we're not trying to cook the brain. You know, when we're doing brain based applications, the next phase up of the infrared, past that, you start getting into these longer, more powerful wavelengths. Well, you, you go into the microwave realm. And the microwaves are designed with that light, the energy of those longer wavelengths to vibrate water molecules, so they heat up. And that's how microwaves work, to like cook food. But that's again, we want to stay on the other end of the, of the red spectrum and the other colors you want low level. And that's really the main caveat because for all the good that lasers have the potential to do for brain, there's one caveat, and that's that you want to be in a certain window of power. So like, just for fun over the holidays, I did a chat GPT of all these different laser research things, you know, with open AI, and I typed in there, what's the ideal dose for brain? And it spit out 0.005 joules per centimeter squared to 10 joules per centimeter squared. Now I know that's going to be Greek for most of the audience. That doesn't mean anything other than there's a Goldilocks effect that you want to be in that sweet spot with your light device. Especially for brain applications. If you start going past 10 joules per centimeter squared on the brain, you actually start opening up glutamate channels that they kind of start to become like drinking a diet soda or having a cell phone next to your head. Like you don't want to have glutamate excitotoxicity because that can cause damage to neurons. It can cause neurons to, you know, apoptosis, like blow up neurons basically, in a way. So you, you want to be careful that whatever light device you use that you're staying in that, that Goldilocks, you know, basically 10 joules per centimeter squared range. And so the bottom line is with light therapy is that you want to use coherent parallel, like true laser, which makes it more expensive obviously to have all that engineering, let alone the research that backs it, but also one that's staying below 10 joules per centimeter squared. So when you have those two main factors in play, you've got the perfect scenario for transcranial applications. And the main reason I got like, I was always in my, my, my arena of neurology working with like post concussion syndrome and neurodegenerative conditions. I was always in that arena. But my ex wife and I have two daughters and her family, her genetics is severe for Alzheimer's, especially her maternal side. And so my daughters had to witness that growing up, watching their, like her grandmother and stuff just deteriorate. And it was very, you know, it's traumatic for us in health care to watch people go through demented states. And especially when they're more, you know, when they're, they're not just in a catatonic state, but they can get very abrasive and, and whatnot. And so it was traumatic for me watching that. But what my kids having to watch like their grandmother go through that, that was a big arena where they, I'll never forget, they were crying in the room. The last time they saw their grandmother alive and they looked at me and said, daddy, this isn't going to happen to us, is it? And I told them, my whole existence is going to be to protect you too. And so that's why I put so much research not into ways to protect the brain and repair the brain. But also number one is safety. Our number one job is to do no harm. Right. So that's something that, that I wanted to make sure when I poured through. There's, there's literally tens of thousands of papers over something like 13,000 papers now in laser. And the, the one thing I wanted to make sure is I was using the safest device on the brains of my daughters. Because I knew when I was in that sweet spot, if you said to me, Trevor, what's the most neuroprotective thing? One therapy that you only get one thing to choose from for brain applications to protect the brain and repair it for sure it would be transcranial low level laser therapy at the right dose.

Wow. So all those red light therapy, including very expensive red light beds, were they all using led?

Most likely, yeah. There's. Because most of the true laser stuff they have to get FDA clearance and then you have to have a prescription to actually have a home device and things like that. So that's one of the problems with the misnomer in the, in the labeling is because like even a laser pointer, they call it a laser pointer, but it's not, it's an LED pointer. That's, that's. So that's why you got to be careful when they, they loosely use the term laser all across the board. And it's not true laser. True laser, you know, with all the engineering stuff is not a cheap endeavor. It's not going to be something that most people are going to buy over the counter kind of thing. That's almost invariably it'll be an LED or an LED cluster because what they'll do is combine led, like the red light bulb diode that we're talking about. Again, I'm not trying to just throw that under the bus. There are, there's a place for that. But they usually combine them with clusters of infrared or near infrared. So now you're looking at those longer heat devices. Like you go to the gym and you're in a red infrared sauna, if you will. And that's usually combining LED with those longer heating wavelengths. And I like the infrared, near infrared stuff. Like I do detox. I work a lot with mold cases and things. So when you're trying to draw out mold toxins like mycotoxins and things like that. There's a good place for, for detoxing. Those things like in the skin is, you know, next to the liver is a major detox organ. So those kind of infrared, near infrared baths are good for detox and they have a place but again, being careful on the head. That's why I like the infrared and near infrared stuff that you see. A lot of them, they're from the neck down. And so that's one thing I advise patients. If you're going to do those kind of infrared saunas, get the ones that are from here down so that you can detox out of the other tissues of the body like the fat cells and things like that.

Okay, so, so the laser therapy, I guess the laser is a lot more expensive to produce, that's what you're saying. But as far as the benefits, what's the problem with a more kind of, I guess less pure, broader spectrum of light versus a very narrow frequency? Right. Range of frequency? That's what laser is.

Yeah. When you're, when you don't have, when it is just scattered photons going everywhere, the chances of getting outcomes is, is markedly reduced. Like when we did the autism study that was just a red laser to the true laser to the brain compared to that red light led. And even in our pain studies and things like that, that these, these devices have done really well with led, the placebo control typically got at least like a nominal improvement or benefit. It wasn't long lasting, but at least there was some physiological benefit. So again, you know, that's something, there is some benefit to it. But like in the transcranial studies we've done, it LED didn't have any effect. And so, you know, that's kind of like, well, is it actually doing anything? And one of the, one of the biggest things I did with the, one of the main laser company that I work with and lecture for is I, the detractors were saying, well, because it's lower power, it won't penetrate the skull. So I actually had the company, they, they asked me to come, you know, when I was teaching, beginning to teach and lecture for them. They said, I said, listen, you guys have the perfect device for transcranial stuff because you have that perfect sweet spot that's not going to exceed that hermetic dose, but is in that, you know, 0.05 to 10 joules per centimeter squared range. But the detractors are going to say it doesn't penetrate the skull. So I had them do a real time functional MRI and QEG pilot study showing the laser penetrating the skull. And so now what we do, I have QEG neurofeedback in my office. And you can see it's really cool to watch it in real time action because you're looking at like the Escloretta scores, all the brain mapping stuff, like the 3D image of the brain. Then you put the true laser on the brain and you see these areas start to improve in their, in their wave activity, their energy output. They're, you know, getting signals going and things like that. So it's really cool. And patients love it in real time because you get to see this stuff of those that low level. So the detractors are saying, well, you need higher power to penetrate the skull. And that's not where, that's not where the magic happens. It's the energy of the photon that does all the work. Especially going back to your quantum model. Like when you look at Sierpinski's triangle, you just put one photon of, of laser energy into a and it has a quantum spreading effect. And that's why you see on so many laser studies that are of the right dose and whatnot in that, that higher energy molecule that you can laser the left foot and have a systemic effect. It's not just about being right on the tissue and the depth of penetration thing. But even with that, just as that proof, even for my own edification, I had them put the laser on the brain and you just saw the brain light up with the low level device I use. And it was so it was perfect. That was kind of a mic drop moment for me because now I know. You know, because the older. There was one study that said you needed higher power, longer wavelengths to penetrate the skull. Well, that was a cadaver study. And I don't think either you and I treat dead people for a living. So I was kind of like, well, you know, you don't want to use a cadaver model because it's, it's live energy, it's water molecules, it's all that stuff that's in a living tissue that you can't quantify in a cadaver study. And I'm not dismissing cadaver studies. I'm just saying that's not accurate. Especially with energy based studies. You can't use a dead model to get the most accurate results. And so, yeah, obviously the more research that comes out, the more you get validation. But in overall, that red light was the initial because it actually started In Hungary, where at Heimelweiss University, they actually, they were looking at animal studies with rats and they shaved the back and they were going to shine the red laser on the, on the, on the animal study, thinking they were going to cause cancer. Well, what happened was not only did they not cause cancer, these animals were the healthiest, they lived the longest and their hair grew back the fastest. So then they switched their paradigm of said, well, oh wait a minute, we're onto something here that's not. This red light therapy is actually therapeutic. And so what. And this was all behind the iron curtain back in the cold war days and stuff. So we didn't even know in western cultures for quite a few decades. We well over in Ukraine and Russia and stuff, red light therapy, especially at 635 nanometers, it's a primary health care tool over there. Over 400 primary care providers in Russia use red light at 635 nanometers as a primary treatment tool. So then we started to get wind of this and now we start to see all these benefits of red light. And I'm telling you, the, the number of boxes, like as a brain guy, you know, it will promote neurogenesis, which is the holy grail, right? When you lose a neuron, it's gone. So you do stem cell stuff. So that's great. But to do true brain based stem cells, you want to do intrathecal, right, where you, you penetrate the meninges, get it into the central nervous system fluid to really get the best benefits of brain, like in a stroke rehab or you know, something along those lines. And they've shown in studies when you laser, you actually promote neurogenesis like in the hippocampus. Well, that's where dementia starts for most patients. That's where like the memory loss starts and things like that. So you can combine things with like transcranial laser, true laser at a low dose because most of the studies are in that low end, like 1 2.8 joules per centimeter squared. And then if you stack with like meditation actually has been shown to increase gray matter in the hippocampus. So one of my things that I do with my patients, or even me at lunch is I do meditation while I'm lasering the brain and just promoting new, you know, potentially promoting new stem cell formation, neurogenesis. It also helps prevent, you know, the, the inflammation. So one of the big issues that all of our, like most of your audience is dealing with right now, whether it's cardiovascular disease, neurodegenerative disease. One of the major underpinnings for most of our chronic morbidity in this country is inflammation. So if you can tamp down inflammation, you're hitting a home run just by doing that. Now obviously you and I are going after the sources. Is it leaky gut, leaky brain? Is it, you know, a pathogen like a viral load that's made into the brain, that kind of stuff? Well, yeah, you want to, you want to get rid of the source. But in the meantime, the more ways you can tap out inflammation, chronic, we need acute inflammation. You want inflammation as part of the healing process. You just don't want it to be chronic. And so I, I will stand in front of anyone and say, what is my best tool for inflammation reduction? I'll go, I'll go low level laser therapy all day long. Like you look at lipopolysaccharides, you know, the, the, the main thing that comes from gram negative bacteria. That's one of the big things that tripwires dementia because as we get circulating brain inflammation that goes to the brain that will push you off the cliff. Even just because you have a genetic predilection for something like Apoe 4 doesn't mean you have to express it. Well, the big thing that's going to push people off the cliff is inflammation. So you, so my, one of my best tools, like in post concussion syndrome, a lot of people are suffering from brain fog because their brain is inflamed. Those glial cells never had a chance to heal. And so when they're chronically inflamed, I'll laser the brain and literally within a day, like one or two treatments, a lot of my, like NFL players and NHL players and stuff that are dealing with post concussion syndrome and CTE type symptoms that their brain starts to, all of a sudden they start to get more clarity, less headaches, less brain fog. And a lot of that is I've just started to bring that inflammation load down by doing laser to the brain, let alone other ways we can use it. Lasers have been shown to promote all of your antioxidant systems. Your glutathione, your catalase, your super like, so all of your free radical fighting stuff, all the stuff why we eat blueberries and blackberries and all these great nutrition things. Lasers will help promote those same antioxidant systems for the free radical damage that we accumulate, especially with environmental toxins and you know, food pollutants and, and roundup like all these, these toxins that our bodies are being faced with. And those kind of things. It's been shown to repair your barrier systems like leaky gut and leaky brain. It's been shown to all of your anti aging stuff like your telomere shortening stuff that we, we all want to, you know, the fountain of youth if you will. Lasers have the capacity to do that.

And then the energy to increase telomere length.

Yeah, well, and protect the shortening of it. But yes, actually increasing telomere length to. So I like using things like that. And I'm also big on the NRF2 and glucoraphan and sulforaphane system. That's one of the reasons why like broccoli for example is one of the superfoods. Right. Because of that glucoraphanin system. That's like when you look at the Orac rating of berries like goji berry, acai berry, all these foods that we know have really good antioxidant properties. There's a value that they assign to it on how good of an antioxidant it is. And usually in those berries it's around 30,000. Well, when you use broccoli extracts with like a mustard seed kicker, you can increase the Orac rating up to like 10 times that, like 300,000. So like one of the things we're all getting exposed to glyphosates right now, right. All the roundup in our pests, even organic stuff is getting leached into that. So one of the things I always tell my patients is, is eat lots of broccoli or do broccoli supplements that are the derivative of it for that NRF2 glucoraphanin system. And when you put mustard seed, mustard seed kicker, it's called my rosinase. On top of that, you have the, one of your best antioxidant nutrients out there. But your lasers are going to promote all that stuff as well. So you know, again, I don't live a perfect lifestyle. I, you know, I'll have my glass of red wine, I'll do those things. I, you know, I live a pretty fun lifestyle. So I use, you know, so we always want to do stuff to offset that. And so I'll take a laser home every night and I'll like laser my brain, laser my liver, you know, laser any. I'm like, you know, that's, that's my primary go to.

I think that's your redemption.

So that, yeah, it has a lot of, a lot of far reaching properties. But so when you look at everything the brain needs to protect and Repair itself. I can't. You know, there's no better single monotherapy out there than low level laser therapy.

Okay, so, so we know it decreases inflammation. Do we know the mechanism? Do we know how it's doing that?

Yeah. So the main things are when you look at like terms like this is going to get technical, but like the, the nuclear factor kappa beta is the linchpin of inflammation, right? Like interleukin 6 and ICAM. And I know all these, all these, you know, the Cox 2 path, all these end stage inflammation cascades, that's the end of it. But the linchpin is nuclear factor kappa beta. And it's been shown through the, the small amount of INOS expression that's at the right dose and ENOS expression that will help the, the oxfloss, you know, the free radical component of it's tied into that. You'll hear about terms like heat shock proteins and things like that. Well, 635 wavelength will actually downregulate that and you know, it'll modulate the nuclear factor Kappa beta inflammatory system and turn that dial down or turn it off. So that's, that's one of the main mechanisms associated with it. I know that was probably too technical, but that's one of those ones where like, a lot of, a lot of your audience will have heard of like when they heard of like the COVID storm, like that cytokine storm, that was just, you know, we need inflammation to fight off bad guys. But one of the problems with COVID is that the SWAT team that your immune system sends out to fight off a virus, while in Covid, it was not only going after the, the insurgents, it was going after the women, the children, the village, the, like, it was just wiping out everything. And then you'll hear of terms like interleukin 6. Well, that's one of those main inflammatory chemical messengers. So in immunology you want to have something that, yeah, you send out the SWAT team, but you also want the sergeant of the police station to say, hey SWAT team, you took out the bad guys, come back to the station. And that's where like vitamin D and vitamin A and a good gut microbiome and omega 3s and cannabinoids and all these really good nutrients are good at the like telling the SWAT team, hey, you've done your job, come back, don't overshoot your target. And same thing with the detectives, your TH2 response that go out and investigate the crime scene to say, hey, that's a bad guy. I'm going to develop antibodies to that. Remember that for the rest of my life. But you don't want that overactive either because then you start tagging your own tissue. And how many autoimmune conditions are in our offices right now? Like there's over 100 different autoimmune, you know, all your Hashimoto's thyroiditis stuff, things like that. That's all autoimmune, where you're, your immune system is being a trick to attack itself. And so you want to have agents within your system or you know, tools in your armament, if you will, to tell the immune system quit overreacting, whether it's the detectives or the SWAT team. Well, vitamin D, technically hormone D is like one of your best agents for that. Vitamin A nac, NAC that we're all using for like long COVID patients for example, is a really good agent for that. But Those, the main messenger system is Interleukin 4, Interleukin 10 TNF or TGF beta, things like that. Those are messenger systems. And again, your laser devices are actually really good for that. And not just red. We've only talked about red so far, but now we're getting into the violets and even green now because what we're finding is the, the short, the shorter the wavelength. So violet is on that end of the, the rainbow spectrum. And that's the most Violet devices are 405 nanometers, which is super fast. Green is about 520 to 530. So that's not quite as fast, but still very energetic. Red is usually around 630 to about 830. So it's even a longer, less energetic wavelength. So what, what the new body, we're already seeing really good research with red obviously, but the preponderance, we're seeing tons of evidence shift of violet and green. So the most energetic laser has the best output of like creating energy for the mitochondria. For example, like when we're trying to recover from a head injury, we need energy. Most of your, your audience is dealing with acute and post concussion syndrome. They just, you know, their get up and go has got up and left. And yeah, some of it has to do with testosterone or progesterone, you know, the HP axis. So some of it has to do with dopamine, those paths, you know, that kind of thing. But the, the fundamental underpinning of that is giving the mitochondria, that powerhouse of the cell, the energy that it needs to get its mojo back. And so we're finding now like, one of my favorite new devices is a green violet laser. And that's getting me results that even the red. And that's not to say the red. You know, most of the evidence is based on red. But when you start stacking all three wavelengths now, you're hitting a home run in ways that I've never even done before with low level laser therapy.

What did the violet and green lights do that the red couldn't do?

Well, I think one of the big things with violet, I don't want to again, kind of throw the baby out the bathwater with red, because red has a lot of, like, you know, say herpes simplex is very common in our population. It's not just about cold sores and things like that, but we're finding all these pathogens getting into the brains and causing like, one of the tripwires for Alzheimer's. Epstein Barr is a big one with ms, you know, herpes simplex with Alzheimer's. That's just one mechanism. But so you say, well, red does have evidence to go after things like the herpetic family, like herpes simplex one, herpes simplex two, things like that. But most people are aware, like, UV light is a very good antimicrobial. Like if you go to a med spa, if you go to a salon, you know, doctor's offices, they'll put tools in UV light to sterilize them. So we know that's a very good antimicrobial agent. But the problem with excess UV light is you throw valence electrons, you actually cause, you can cause free radical damage. Just like too much sun. Sun is a very good antimicrobial agent, but too much sun, you know, causing sunburns and, and cancers and things like that, that's excess UV light. So if you're in the visible spectrum with violet light, you get all the benefits of UV light.

So.

But without causing damage to mammalian cells. So we use violet with a very, that's a very powerful antimicrobial agent. It's very good for porphyrins. It's very good for all these other things. But I think the easiest answer to that is violet is just the, probably the best thing for the antimicrobial stuff, antibacterial, antiviral. So when you stack violet and red together again, you've got this one, two punch of immune regulation, anti inflammatory, immune resolution, antibacterial or anti pathogen, antibiotic. It just comes at it from all these different angles that, you know, most medications aren't designed to do that stuff. You Know, most, you know, nutrition even isn't designed to come after it from all those different angles. So that's why I always tell my audience is I don't care if you're a board certified neurologist, anyone can turn on a laser and shine it at the head of your patients. You just got to make sure you've got the right device at the right dose. And so I always joke that I'm like, all right, everyone point to your prefrontal cortex. All right, can you turn this laser on? Point it at the prefrontal corners. There you go. You're an honorary neurologist kind of thing. Like, I, I kind of try and simplify it like that. And I don't want to ever trivialize what the neurology field does, but, you know, it could be that simple about getting a light on your head. So.

Yeah. So when do you feel that you should use the violet light for the, for the brain?

Well, I think the more we study, even in pain studies, they're showing the more energy that you give the system with those shorter wavelengths, even the better outcomes with pain. So, you know, I, I look at it like this, is that I, I would be happy with the audience just saying I'm gonna just use red light, whether it's the doctors or the patients, you know, led. Sure. Red light, true laser, best in that sweet spot we were talking about. But anytime you can start to stack a red violet together, go for it. I don't care if it's pain management, I don't care if it's antimicrobial. I don't care. Like, they're like any condition you're treating. Autonomic regulation. Like, I'm dealing a lot with POTS and dysautonomia after like Covid or traumatic brain injury or things like that, vaccine injuries, all these kind of things that we're dealing with. You know, the more we're fighting, just the more energy you get, the better your outcomes are going to be. And I don't mean that as power. That's a big distinction. So, you know, most of the lasers I use, they max out at 17 and a half milliwatts. Well, some of the lasers out there are like 40, 50 watts, not milliwatts. And so now you're getting into that no fly zone of just heating tissue. So I'm very careful to say that, you know, you, you don't want to, you don't want to confuse energy with power. Energy is how quick the wave is and that, that, that photon has More energy to do all the good work. Power is the, the wattage that the device can put out and that's more for heating tissue quicker. Yeah, so that's a very big distinction. You want to know when you're using light therapy. So we want to shorter wavelengths that is red and you know, red is fast. Greens even faster. Violets the fastest. And when you can put all three of those wavelengths into the tissue now you're going to get even better results than just red by itself. So green has a lot of effects that we're seeing. Again, even better with pain. Like the green violet combo. Green's really good for skin. And again red and violet has really like the violet laser I use has a full acne FDA clearance for example. But when you add green, you know, like scar healing, wound healing, things like that adds another layer to a bone healing it. Green works even better. The, there's studies on peripheral nervous system, on sleep, on headaches with green, things like that. So green is, it's a very nascent field because it's like the newest diode. So there's not nearly as much research on green. But the more we see, the more we see it's a nice adjunct to the other devices. So, so I would say in short, your, your meat and potatoes, bread and butter laser is going to be red. Still. If you could add red with violet at the right dose now you're hitting a home run with pain antimicrobial even more than red by itself. And then when you put all three together, you've, you've got a lot. And they've even done studies. This is one we haven't really talked about, but with the mitochondrial electron transport chain stuff like the rate limiting enzymes that are in the mitochondria, like when you, when you hear people like you need energy and that our gas or fuel supply is called ATP and it's the mitochondria that makes that ATP. And you need oxygen, you need glucose, not the glucose. We think about a Snickers bar. I'm talking, you know, good fats and good proteins that we should be eating as a society more of like Mediterranean Paleo diet kind of things that are better for the brain. Yeah, we, our brain loves good fats and proteins. It will eat all the carbs you give it. It'll, it'll take that high fructose corn syrup and gobble it up. The problem is it's very inflammatory. It's very, it can create amyloid plaque and all those protein, those bad proteins for the brain, things like that. But really the big thing with the, the mitochondria is you want to have all the different rate limiting enzymes. Well, we, we've known that the fourth enzyme is called cytocream, cytochrome C oxidase, that's the, that's the one that responds most to red. But what the, the research has shown is that the third enzyme responds to green and the first two respond to violet. So again, if you're like when I work with, when I'm supporting neurodegenerative cases like Alzheimer's and Parkinson S, it's been shown that different neurodegeneration conditions actually have parts of the mitochondria that aren't working well. Like with Parkinson's, it's, it's complexes 1, 2 and 4. So that violet red combination is probably your best bet to support Parkinson's patients. You know, Alzheimer's, you want to use all three, you know, things like that. So again, if you're working with neurodegeneration, ideally you're going to actually have those different color wavelengths to get even better outcomes than just redwood by itself.

I see. So the different wavelengths, the different colors hit different enzymes within the mitochondria.

Exactly.

Improve its function. And how did I. So the company that, that got FDA approval, it's, it's called erconia, Correct?

Correct. Yeah.

So how do they discover what wavelengths to use? I mean, I assume there's a lot of research behind this.

Well, that's, that's one thing. You talked to Steve Shanks is the co founder of the company and the head of research. And you know, they, Steve did his homework. You know, he's a very humble guy. He should have an honorary PhD in, in laser physiology because the guy's brilliant. But you know, they were playing around with different diode powers and things like that, and they kept coming back to the common denominator, that the red diodes that were true laser were, were best. But if they, he, he played around trying to crank up the power, he said our results weren't nearly as good. But then they put it to task. Like when you look at FDA clearances, there's about 30 in the light field. And they're for different reasons. Some are pain, some are esthetic, that kind of stuff. But of the approximately 30 FDA clearances, Airconia has 22 of them. They have more FDA clearances than all other light companies combined. And I'm a big, you know, I want a proof of concept. But number one, for safety that we've been talking about and of all of their 22 FDA clearance they've never had one adverse event reported. So that was like, like to me that was a game changer because it's like you can't say that even about certain nutrition supplements, let alone other, you know, tech techniques for healthcare to never have an adverse event. So it kind of, you know, proof of concept of safety again going back to that do no harm. But then that whole arena of the mitochondria, a lot of that's in vitro and in vivo studies and different, you know, cellular studies and things like that. So those aren't all ericonia studies about exposing that or you know, exploring that stuff. But if you go to PubMed or Google Scholar, like all these online peer reviewed published literature sites you can find and do your own. Like I always tell my docs that I'm lecturing to don't believe me? Go challenge me. I as a matter of fact I had a, I, I was doing a seminar at the end in Portland, Maine at the end of last year and there was a doc in real time putting everything I was saying into chat GPT. Could you imagine how like how unnerving that is? And he comes up to me, he's like, you're doing a great job, doc. I'm like oh thanks, you know, nice, nice for that. High five. He goes, no, I'm like cross referencing everything you're saying in chat gbt. I was like, oh my God, now we're in a whole new world of, you know, validation. But it's good, you know, I want to make sure that what I'm saying is validated in the, in, in the literature. So, but yeah, so you know, obviously I invite people to do research and you know, you're always going to have outliers but when you look at the preponderance of evidence, it all comes back to that like the 405 to, to the maybe top at about 830 nanometer range and then again between about.05 and 10 Joules per centimeter squared with true laser. If you're putting those primary parameters all together, you've got a home run and most importantly you're going to do something that's safe, that I have no issues with you putting it. If you're in those parameters, put it on the brain, you know, that's, that's a take home. So.

Right. It looks very bright. I mean of course I had done both on me a few patients and some of my staff. It looks beautiful and, but those are still low level Laser light. Right. So as far as the, the, the, the energy. The potency of the energy is very low.

Yeah. So it's, it's. The power is at that milliwatt range versus watt range because again, when you use those shorter wavelengths, those photons have higher energy baked in. It's built in to those shorter wavelengths, so they, they have better. Like, you know, like, you alluded to the quantum model of how that energizes the body and gets it to do all the magic that it does. You know, this. But the human body is fascinating. When you give it the right energy, it. It can, you know, miracles can happen. That's, you know, I, I laugh when patients say, like, doc, you're a miracle worker. You did something that nobody else did. Like. No, I was, I'm just a conduit. I just happen to have all these, you know, I keep an open mind because that's what bugs me about health care in this country is that, you know, doctors can be so closed off, especially they don't know what they don't know. Right. So if they've never heard of light therapies, they're like, oh, that's a bunch of junk. There's no research or science behind that. Like, what have you read on the research?

Head in the sand.

Yeah. So.

So out of the 30 FDA indications or clearance, there are 22 that was earned by Erconia. And what are these clearances for?

Well, again, you know that a lot of it's esthetic. And I know that's an arena that your clinic does a really good job with. So, like, body circumference reduction and, you know, acne and things like that. A lot of it's on pain stuff because that's a big arena that lasers do very well, both in acute and chronic pain. And so that's. Those are. The majority of stuff is right there. But we're also in the pipeline. We got IRB for the autism study to bring it stateside. And this is really important because the irb, that's like the, the regulatory body to protect us from experimenting on people's brains and bodies. Right. So to get them to. Okay, a study for transcranial for kids is huge. But it goes to. To me, that just validates the safety of these products that Ericonia uses. And so now we're getting into the arena of actually the double blind, randomized, placebo, controlled and sometimes, you know, crossover studies, quadruple blind, you know, so they're actually taking the control group and then putting it through the treatment group after that kind of stuff. So they're going into great lengths of the brain based stuff and that's the stuff that excites me the most. We've got diabetic neuropathy in the pipeline. We've got, you know, so there's other ones that are in the pipeline, but the main ones right now are for pain, chronic acute neck, low back, shoulder, that kind of stuff. And then a lot of it is the esthetic world.

So we mentioned a little bit about the penetration because I remember Dr. Ryan Manning was talking about how at one time he actually had the laser in his pocket and he didn't even take out of his pocket and he was shining it on somebody in order to help that person and got amazing results. And sometimes he even had I think, objects in between. And what, how far can this laser penetrate?

Well, that's okay again that there's a big distinction on where true lasers versus led, because when you're just scattered photons going everywhere, that's also going to have like, you know, your length of distance away from the target and things like that take on even a bigger meaning. But with true laser that's all collimated, coherent, all that energy is going, you can be 10ft away from like we have a lot of vets that work with animals and you know, some of they're working with like lions and stuff. They're not in the cage lasering the lion, they're like, you know, the cage, that kind of thing. So, you know, I was, the example is like, well, it penetrates the skull. So yes, it's going to go through clothes and things like that. But you know, it's obviously ideally anytime I can get directly on like the darker colors will absorb more photon energy. But it's like if you had a chain link fence, for example, and I, I took these billions of photons and I like sand, I threw it through the fence. Yeah, some of it's going to get caught up in the fence, but most of the sand is going to go through the fence. Kind of think of it like that. I know that's a loose analogy, but so yes, it will go through structures, tissues, things like that. Ideally you're going directly on the scan, that kind of stuff, but you're going to get through clothes, you're going to get through. And the other thing I like about the low level laser is that, you know, a lot of people have tattoos these days. You know, I'm like a unicorn. I don't have any. But with higher power devices, if You've got a tattoo, you're going to burn that patient. You know, you're actually going to cause a thermal because it's a thermal effect. You can't use lasers over like high powered lasers over tattoos. You know, you look at the low back study we did, how many people have that, you know that tattoo down there that would have that chronic low back study we would have been at, you know, we had a toss, you know, three quarters of the population out because they all these low back tattoos if it was a high powered device. So same thing with there's, that's one of the. Not the problem. The FDA puts all light devices under the same umbrella of contraindication. The Class 4, a Class 3B, a Class 2, that kind of thing. Well, Class 4 and a Class 2, that's an apples to oranges comparison. So yeah, in a high powered heat device you can't use it over a titanium hip, you can't use it over a tattoo, you can't, you know, those kind of things. But with low level you can do that because it's non thermal, it's non, you know, those kind of things. So, so yeah, ideally in summary it will with true laser that's collimated, coherent parallel billions of photons you can get through structures like the skull, like clothes, things like that.

Okay. And I know you can't make any claims, you know, that's, that, that's something we all face these days if we haven't gone through the studies or haven't gone through the approval process from the fda. But clinically, I mean that's how medicines move forward. Right. Is because we're gather evidence through our clinical investigation. So I mean that's the inspiration for a lot of studies and eventually gaining approval. So you mentioned a few things that are under study like autism, diabetic neuropathy. So have those studies yielded good results?

I. I'm not supposed to say.

But.

But rumor has it yes, that's something that. Yes. And the short answer is all I can say is yes. And that's, that's. I'm so excited again for this technology because you know, pain management by itself is such a, you know, you got the opiate crisis, you've got all these people looking for chronic pain solutions. And so this is a great device or technology for that. But I'm a being a brain guy, I want to know about the double blind, you know, Alzheimer's studies and things like that. And so that's where I'm excited because that's where a lot of the laser research is moving to the brain based stuff.

Of course, the brain is one of the most challenging organs to heal very much. Yeah, that even shows in, in stem cell therapy. You know, the brain is more challenging. But you know, we've had good results for traumatic brain injury or even for, you know, some other conditions like Parkinson's and, and Alzheimer's, but a lot more studies needed. But like what you said, you know, sometimes what we do almost seem miraculous. But really what we're doing is just giving the body the tools and giving it some impetus so the body can heal itself. And then that's really what, what we're doing, giving it the signals, the signals that we're missing. So in your practice, because you treat a lot of patients, I'm sure what, what type of things, you know, success stories have you seen? You know, that people not claiming that, you know, lasers curing anything, but people are sick, people are suffering. But if you try a therapy, who are the people that have done quite well?

Well, I think, you know, I think a big one is the, the post concussion syndrome. You know, these patients that, you know, two years, three years later, their, their affect, their, their depression, their anxiety, their, you know, their brain fog, their cognition, they're all these things that they're still suffering from, you know, and, and just getting the light devices on without even going through all the other underpinnings because, you know, a lot of those patients, like one big thing I'm a big proponent of is that, that I can line up, I'll have say 10 of my post concussion patients line up in a row. I still might have 10 different treatment strategies because some of them, maybe it's because the HP axis is off and they're not making, you know, in females enough progesterone or males enough testosterone. And that never got assessed after their head injury. And so it may need, you know, some sort of hormonal support while we're doing all these other things to repair the brain. Because, you know, then as the, as we get the brain better, the hypothalamus works better, the pituitary works better. And then they're gonads maybe are starting to, you know, produce more testosterone or progesterone or estrogen, and that in turn drives the frontal lobe. So it might be a loop fix like that that I'm helping with. But then another one might because of the gliosis, just through the chronic inflammation and those, those supporting neurons, I call them the Bruce Banner of the brain. You know, you get punched in the Head and Bruce Banner turns into the Hulk. And you need that. You need the Hulk to protect you, but you also need the Hulk to go back to Bruce Banner. Well, a lot of times in post concussion because they went back onto the field too quick and they didn't rest and take time off enough and things like that, where they're back in their head, bashed in on the field. Well, now the Hulk stays the Hulk and now it's destroying the city, you know, that kind of thing. So you need to turn the Hulk back into Bruce Banner. So it might just be that. And so you have patients literally within one treatment or two treatments of doing just the transcranial laser stuff. They're like, oh my God, Doc. My, my mood completely changed after that. We see that in post concussion stuff all the time. I in neurodegeneration realm, maybe, you know, in a Sam supporting a Parkinson's patient, I'm not ever, I'm not treating them, I'm not curing them. It's a neurodegenerative condition. But what I am doing is helping their normal adaptive physiology of the brain and immune system and inflammation. So maybe that Parkinson's patient was on a decline like this and they're going fast. And one of, you know, success may be you just slowed that down, that, that progression where it's, it's a much great more graded curve or their, their memory loss and Alzheimer's, where they were just going downhill like that. And now I slowed that down to the point where now they're, you know, they're starting to remember family names again and things like that, but their decline, rate of decline was much better. But maybe for a Parkinson's success, it's like, you know, I've had patients say where they fell into bed, they were frozen. And for you and I, we take for granted that we can shift our body, get up and go to the bathroom. But for me, that miracle for that, that patient, that miracle was now I allowed them to like be able to turn over in bed and get up and go to the bathroom unassisted. That's something that is huge for that patient. I didn't cure or treat their Parkinson's. I help their quality of life. And so those kind of things. You hear these stories all the time, but then you also have the success stories where that are like the miracle home runs were like, my memory is back completely. My tremor is gone completely. My, you know, I can go to the bathroom now unassisted, or whatever it may be. All these symptoms that these neurodegeneration cases suffer from. And so that's why, you know, I always say, listen, you're not going to get a multimodal and brain based approach with most of the standard allopathic model that's out there. I'm sorry, but Aricept and Namenda and stuff for trying to promote memory, you know, and acetylcholine and stuff like that, that's one methodology, but that's not getting to the root cause of all these problems. And it's not a multimodal approach. Right. You have to be able to address all these things. That's why the term integrative neurology is so important. It's not just a one, one trick pony kind of thing, but lasers. I don't care what your specialty is, whether you're in immunology and neurology and pain management and in, you know, aesthetics and stem cells. Yeah, there's a place for all that stuff because they check off so many of the boxes like we've been talking about. So, so for me, yeah, it's, it's not saying I'm curing or treating any disease, it's saying, hey, now this patient can do this again that they lost the capacity to do, whether it's a Huntington's chorea, a Parkinson's, an Alzheimer's or what have you.

Yeah. So in my clinic, when I witness myself from our staff, is that a lot of the pain issues, musculoskeletal issues, were going away and, and the, the inflammation reduced drastically to the point where one of my staff members couldn't really squat down for a couple years. And she was having a brace on and just within 10 minutes of using this laser and she was able to squat and stand up and then she was like, look. And she took off her bandage, you know that later on that day and she doesn't anymore. I mean, that's pretty dramatic to think that 10 minutes of shining light on somebody could produce that kind of results.

Yeah, it is. I'm kind of almost numb to it now because I see it day in and day out. But people that have not been exposed and get exposed to it, they're in tears, they're like, oh my God, this light just did that for me. And then you also think of the far reaching effects because then you start to get their chronic pain down now. They start sleeping better, their affect is better. Like it has so much far reaching stuff where their life, they, they couldn't remember the last time they, you know, they, they were out of pain and then so then they start to get that zest for life again. It's just such a cool thing. And that's why like I, I really am big on docs that don't just I, I love the idea like we uber specialist is good. If you're a surgeon that only does left knees for a living, good on you. But if you're doing, you know, brain based therapy, like people wonder all the time, why do you know so much about thyroid? Why do you know so much about cardiovascular and address? Because you have to. Because all that stuff is affecting the brain. But more importantly the brain is affecting all those systems. And so again that just goes back to that finding somebody that's willing to look outside of that tunnel vision blinder and do those things. And I never argue with results. I don't care what the result is, as long as it's safe. I don't care if you're wanding crystals, I don't care. You don't argue with. Well even if it's placebo effect, a lot of medications are placebo effect, A lot of everything is placebo effect. But that's the most important thing is outcomes. Whether it's this technology that's really cool and doctors may not have heard of it before, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work and it doesn't exist. So that's what I love about this thing is that no matter what your specialty is and what kind of case you're working with, pain brain aesthetics, there's a place for low level laser therapy.

Yeah, it's pretty interesting. So the laser has different settings for different issues. So one of them is helping to break down scar tissue. Correct. There's a, one of, one of the settings and that definitely helped one of our staff members who I think post surgery had scar at, at the base of her neck and that had caused a lot of headache, dizziness, spasms and she couldn't dance, couldn't turn without, you know, just she couldn't do it for a few years and with the laser just, you know, just 10, 15 minutes and she was able, it was drastic effect, quality of life. So that's pretty incredible.

Well, and, and to your point that like one of the latest FDA clearances that are coney got was post, post op recovery and pain reduction, you know, reducing needs for meds, getting better outcomes, quicker recovery times, things like that. But I, I think you bring up, it kind of touches on a very important point, especially with brain based therapies. We're receptor driven systems like what goes into the brain dictates what comes back out of it. And when you have these like say you cut through skin with a surgical procedure, what changes the all the receptor dynamic and especially like in the neck and whatnot. The neck is huge for the brainstem stuff in the cerebellum, balance systems, muscle coordination and things like that. So when you alter those feedback loops then you can throw off somebody's central integrative state and they, they, maybe they're now they're not quite aware of where they are in space. They can get dizzy, they can get vertigo, things like that. And that's why I'm a big proponent of receptor driven systems. Chiropractic, massage, acupuncture, exercise, like all these cool things we can do to activate the body and the receptors will help the brain get the information that it needs to actually have an appropriate response. So yeah, it's a great example of what goes in helps, you know, help what comes back out. And lasers can be a huge tool for that.

Yeah. And these laser machines can, can they only be used by providers or can customers or just, you know, normal people off the street get them?

Yeah. So you're like when you, you, you want to do a prescription for them especially you could, I can safely send a low level like a Class 2 laser home with a patient. I'm not worried about them. You know, with some that can't happen. Like with like a, you got to be very careful like class four and stuff. You have to have you know, the, the protective goggles of everyone in the room. You have to have the door closed, you have like all these things. And I'm not sending that home with a patient. You know, that's something that. So as long as it's in the right device. Yes. I've like probably in the last two years I've had about 15 patients buy the violet red laser. And it's not cheap, but they see, when they see the benefits on how much that helps them, they're like, you know, I don't care what it costs. If I got my memory back, I got my balance back, I, I can move again. Like whatever those kind of things. What price do you put on that? Let alone the conferring of protection. Like I'm like, well what price do you put on your brain? You know, you look at, at a good example is this new lecanema, like the new amyloid reversal drug. The copay for that alone per year is $26,500. That's just the copay. And you know, with all the Medicare stuff. And it's a drug that doesn't even. All it does is designed to reverse amyloid. It doesn't check off all the other boxes that you need for Alzheimer's. So I'm like, well, would you pay $26,000 for one year copay or $15,000 for a true laser that has way more research and safety and all these things associated with, you know, so it's kind of like, you know, it's all matter of perspective and what's your priority? Right. So. And I should go back to, I'll go back to. Because you brought up a point that I. With frequencies and how you can program different frequencies. You know, just so the audience knows, two of the most important frequencies for the brain are 40 hertz and 10 hertz. So you're like, if you're just at a resting state, it's like your peak alpha frequency. Like when you do QEG assessments and EEG studies, your optimal state is a 10 Hz frequency and that's called peak alpha. And so, but 10 Hz has an effect on the parasympathetic system. It is your meditative state. It's your relaxed state, it's your daydreaming state. It's like there's all these benefits of being at 10 hertz and that's very specifically mapped out on things like, yeah, EEG studies, but 40 hertz, I dare say, like they're reversing amyloid, reversing tau, promoting glymphatic clearance of like flushing, you know, getting all those like the damaged cells, like the autophagy, my tophogy scene, like getting those cells out of the system. You look at the MIT studies that they're doing and just flashing 40 hertz in like visually evoked potentials is reversing ammo, like that drug I just mentioned that's trying to reverse amyloid, just doing 40 Hz frequency flashes is reversing amyloid without any of the side effects of drugs causing brain swelling, brain bleeds, all these other kind of things. So I always, you know, again, invite people to look at these things. Well, what all the benefits of 40 hertz and tenors. So when I program all of my lasers, those are probably two of the most. Like, you could easily make the argument that if you only took from this, this, this video a frequency specific stuff doing 10 and 40 hertz, I'd be happy with that. There's all kinds of, you know, there's a reason for delta, there's a reason for gamma, and all these Other wavelengths, but the 10 and 40 is your, your bread and butter stuff.

Yeah, thank you for that tip. So, so this machine, you can adjust all the frequencies to. Okay, yeah.

And match the brain stuff. And so, you know, you and I can get on. We'll get on and do a separate, you know, call with, you know, talking about how to program in your lasers like the master brain, the master optimization, the rest digesting one the, you know, so we have all, and you could name them whatever you want, but we have all these presets and so it's easy. So my staff, they just, or the doctors or the patient, they just hit a button and it's already preset in there and you say, okay, you do this on, on the prefrontal system for five minutes and, and you're done with your treatment kind of thing. So it can be that like, you know, linear as far as once you have it all programmed in, it's just touch and a lot of it's just set it and forget it. You know, I always like to stack or maybe I'm doing memory recall stuff or like some of these apps like you know, Lumosity or Brain HQ or Elevate or maybe I'm doing meditation or you know, whatever I'm, I like to co activate while I'm lasering tissues. But anything you do as a healthcare provider, say you're a physical therapist doing a shoulder rehab. Well, if you put a laser and then do the shoulder rehab, you're going to get even better results by stacking the laser on top of what you're already doing doing. So that's another concept that the audience will love.

But yeah, so that's what I'm going to do in my clinic is to stack that with stem cell therapy. So we got the energy. I think of stem cell therapy also as energy therapy because I'm giving people the DNA. So DNA is the most energy dense substance in the universe. So if I can infuse the energy contained in the DNA while shining these really powerful laser lights, I think we're going to get incredible results.

Well, I mean, I can't ask. You can't. Of all the new cutting edge modalities, stacking regenerative medicine with lasers and, and you know this. But for the audience, like the, the other cool thing about stacking the lasers is wherever you target the laser, it'll draw the stem cells to the tissue. So even if you're using adipose based pluripotent stem cells, it'll draw those cells or even, even peptides like cerebralysome and things like that. It'll draw to the tissue and act like a beacon of light to it. And then here's my favorite. This is going to sound like an infomercial. It gets even better, you know, because one of the other things the light therapies will do is actually promotes that pluripotent stem cell to differentiate into the target tissue, whether it's a neuronal tissue, whether it's like a glial system, whether it's cartilage, whether it's attended. So lasers actually promote cellular differentiation to the target tissue. So what, what a home run. So I love, I love, love, love what you're doing. What you're doing is such a, again, a needed area in healthcare and all, whether it's a brain rehab, whether it's a, a bad knee, you know, because a lot like I just had a patient today, her primary reason was for immuno immunological purposes. You know, she's coming off cancer, all these other things, but, but she has a need that needs to be replaced. And she said, is there anything else I can do? You know, she tried the sinvisc, she tried cortisone, she tried all these things. And I said, always your last Alamo before you go under the knife or like a replacement is to do regenerative medicine like stem cells with laser and always give that a shot before you go under the knife.

So yeah, so you mentioned the laser light can attract the cells and activate them. Is that for all different frequencies or any particular ones?

Yeah. So you could, you can do frequency specific stuff to the tissues. That's not like the brain frequencies are very easily, like I say, easily mapped because you could do like quantitative studies like EEG and things like that. So we know exactly when the brains, you know, if this part of the brain's at 8 hertz or if it's at 1 hertz, this is what's happening in the brain, the peripheral tissues is not as much of an exact science because some, some of those frequencies are based on like royal Rice work, for example, that kind of got chased out of this country. And like we, like all molecules, all organs have certain vibration and frequencies that they, they operate at optimally. So yes, if you can tap into that, you're more likely to activate that target tissue, that target organ or whatever the case is. But that's, that's more of an inexact science because there's not as much data and research as there is in the brain. Frequency stuff.

Are there differences between the different Colors, the different wavelengths. As far as its effect on cells.

Yes. But again, you know, that's, that's really under. Because even the research on red, on that there's a, there's not a lot of like I, I'll send you some of the papers I have, but there's. And I'm sure you've got a bunch of them already. But the red is the preponders. But I'm sure like everything we see in laser, the more we study these different arenas with the different colors, you're saying, oh wait a minute, green has a better effect on this. And you know, just like, you know, maybe for bone healing, my red green combination is my go to for like a fracture healing time or things like that. So not just frequencies, but even the wavelength, the nanometers, which is the, what gives it the different colors. Yeah. So you're going to see that expand as the research expands. But with stem cell stuff, most of it's based on red.

So awesome. That's fantastic. Well, I love how you are breaking things down and you're so knowledgeable and so passionate. I'm sure listeners have learned a ton and are excited about the technology. So I want to thank you. Anything else you, you want to share? Anyone shouldn't do laser therapy. Is there a limit to how much you can do? Can you do it a few times a day? Like how any, any thoughts?

So that's, I love that question because it, some of it goes back to the, what we've been laying out about that, that hormetic, that sweet spot, Goldilocks effect. As long as you're doing either the LED end of the spectrum or like a Class 2 true laser, it's really almost impossible to exceed hormetic threshold like that 10 joules, all those terms we were using. So I think that's the big caveat is that if you're especially from a home based up like I have intensives that fly in to see me from around the world. And so in that case I may only get the patient for a week. And they're typically getting the lasers three to four times a day while they're here because they're in my office all day, you know, doing really as the name implies, intensive therapies, you know, but from a home perspective, like I do a laser rental program where the patient say they're coming off an ankle surgery or whatever, they take the laser home and yeah, I'm having them do it two or three times a day. So at the right, you know, those class two, the Low level, like the milliwatt lasers that are true laser. You can do that, you know, throughout the day. It would take like this laser behind me. Even though it's the 17.5 milliwatt, it would take me 14 hours to. To start to exceed that. Well, nobody's going to sit under a laser for 14 hours. But that is different than like the 3B and Class 4, the higher powered lasers. That's not something I can just send home with a patient. That's not something that can be done, you know, kind of multiple times a day indiscriminately. So as long as the audience is aware of that and I'm not here to throw class three and fours under the bus. They're very good at heating tissue. They're very good at. They've got their fda, Clarence, for temporary relief of muscle and joint aches and range of motion. That's fine for. But I'm a brain immunology, you know, pathogen kind of guide. So we got to be careful that, that people don't think, well, all light devices are created equal. And if some's good, more is definitely not better. Stay on that low end, the LED end that you can get on Amazon or get a true class to like an airconia. And then you're, you know, now you're, you're in the safe zone.

Wonderful. Thank you for that. Okay, so I guess we're going to end here and really appreciate your knowledge and tremendous. And it's really fun talking with you, doc.

Thanks for having me. Anytime you want to have me on it. We can expand, we can get into the quantum biology, cover all those cool topics.

Oh, gosh, there's so much to talk about, specific stuff.

I'm happy to be here for you and I look forward to chatting with you more. Thanks again.

Thank you so much, Dr. Barry. Sam.