Heal Your Chronic Pain By Doing THIS! | Dr. Mike Jamshidi

Someone has aches and pains, usually, what would they do? They pop some pain pills. Right. But there are much better ways of dealing with it.

My mother had obesity and diabetes. When she had a lot of pain, she would just pop pain pills. There was never a real solution to actually addressing why they're in pain. I've experienced a lot of health improvement when people have worked on me in different ways with something so simple and so effective. It's kind of elegant in my mind, you know, doing body work because it's both a treatment and a diagnostic tool. So it's. While I'm working on you, I also get to better understand what's the next kind of intervention that could help.

In this episode, I'm speaking with Dr. Michael Jamshidi or Dr. Mike. Dr. Mike is an essential part of our clinic at Chaho Health because he does incredible work to help people with their muscular skeletal issues or pain problems. And he uses a wide range of modalities from his training, including acupuncture, nature body work, naturopathic medicine, and also regenerative medicine. And he is going to break it down for you when it comes to his approach to pain relief and musculoskeletal repair. And his story of how he became a naturopathic doctor is interesting as well. So I hope you enjoyed this episode. And Dr. Mike, welcome to the show. So first of all, you're a naturopathic doctor?

Yeah, yeah, I'm a naturopathic doctor.

And I think you guys got a lot more training in musculoskeletal health than us MDs.

Yeah, well, yeah, definitely in my curriculum when I went to Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine in Arizona, now called Sonoran University. Manipulations that are similar to chiropractic were a part of our curriculum. Traditional Chinese medicine, acupuncture, other kinds of body work, myofascial release, and there were other extracurricular things that I was involved in. Craniosacral applied kinesiology.

So you guys were doing a lot.

Of hands on, a lot of hands on type of. So I think all of the exposure to actually getting your hands on somebody and, and getting to feel the movements of their body palpating is just really kind of giving me another sense into what's going on in their musculoskeletal system and then their overall health.

It's interesting. Why does naturopathic emphasize the bodywork so much, you think?

Yeah, I think they just have this different perspective of looking at the whole person and multi organization systems and that they're all interrelated, that the pain that you have in your back and your shoulder and your knees is not just coming from your back and shoulder and knees. It's also coming from your lifestyle, your diets, your overall systemic inflammation, what's going on in your guts, etc.

So the physical manipulation, which is really not really existent, maybe there are a couple maneuvers the MDs may learn, but really we generally don't touch the body. So what do you think that the importance is as far as body work?

Yeah. So there's a lot of ways that that could be answered. I think one thing is you get to have a feel for how the biomechanics of that individual actually operate and where their restrictions are, where their limitations are, what muscles are being properly innervated through muscle strength tests. And you just get a more dynamic picture of the person. And that gives you a much deeper understanding how to actually address them. So getting your hands on can also help open up the space. You have the musculature. You have all of these fascial connective tissue layers that wrap around those muscles and organs. And there's lots of blood vessels and nerves and even lymph vessels that go through all of the fascia and the connective tissue. And when you do body work, like myofascial or deep tissue or manipulations, it can really help open up those spaces so that it can help reset proper function to that whole complex. It's really a complex. It's not just, you know, the muscle.

Right. And I've seen you do that in the clinic, helping some of our staff. Right. Someone have aches and pains and instead of. Because usually what would they do? They pop some pain pills. Right. But they're much better ways of dealing with it.

Definitely. Yeah. That kind of bothers me. I mean, it hits close to home. My family, my mom's side, I grew up standard American diet. My mother had obesity and diabetes, and when she had a lot of pain, she would just pop pain pills. Or my grandmother, same case. And so there was never a real solution to actually addressing why they're in pain. And so I've experienced a lot of health improvement when people have worked on me in different ways and. And I get to with something so simple and so effective, really, it's kind of elegant in my mind, you know, doing body work because it's both a treatment and a diagnostic tool. So it's like while I'm working on you and you're improving, I also get to better understand what's the next kind of Intervention that could help, like a local injection or something.

I see. So, Dr. Mike, did you have any health problems yourself?

Yeah, yeah, definitely. So, you know, growing up with my mother back in Maryland, standard American diets, you know, going through the 90s and the 2000s, ultra processed foods, tons of sugar and fast food restaurants and sodas and everything. That's just terrible for your health that we know now. I think we all kind of knew back then, too, but maybe we didn't know just how damaging it was. But, yeah, that definitely took a toll on me and my overall health. And I had other issues, like recurring tonsillitis. And my mother would take me to the pediatrician again and again. This is when I was around 12, 13, 14, 15 years of age. And they would just prescribe me antibiotics again and again and again, just multiple times throughout the year.

That's all the tools they had.

Yeah, well, that and then surgery. Right. So that was the next suggestion is to get my tonsils removed. And. And as a kid, for me, even though that's a relatively benign procedure, it just kind of freaked me out and. Which led me to, is there anything else that I could do?

So you were trying to avoid surgery?

I was trying to avoid surgery, which I'm sure actually a lot of people, that's their motivation is wanting to avoid going under the knife, even if it's just a smaller procedure like that. And so I just started looking into how can I troubleshoot my own body, how can I heal my own self? And I was doing herbal teas and other kinds of nutrients, and I changed my diet and I was doing different kinds of movements and yoga poses and combined all those things, and I just healed myself and I just stopped getting recurrent tonsillitis.

Wow. And how old were you?

Yeah, I was about like, 14, 15, 16. Around that age.

That's pretty amazing.

Yeah, you're.

I was a precocious kid. Searcher for answers.

Yeah, Seeker.

Yeah, that. That's amazing. So did that get you interested in maybe becoming a doctor one day?

Yes, that. My mother also, she's a nurse. She works at Children's National Hospital. So I had that influence over me. She was a caretaker her whole life. And so then that influence, plus my own kind of healing journey and getting involved in other people's healing journeys and their transformations, my own transformations. I think it was very rewarding to see people go from a place that's ill and unbecoming and not. Not thriving to now they're well and they're just in a different place in their Life.

Did you ever debate whether or not you're going to be an MD or naturopathic doctor?

Yeah, actually I did. I was, I was looking to go to medical school conventional and after kind of getting an understanding of what their overall approach is not really multi system, not to document. You yourself are medical doctor.

I know our limitations, you know, you.

Know your limitations and you know, the conventional medical system does a lot of good, saves people's lives all the time. Acute care, emergencies, surgeries, even debilitating diseases with certain medications and things. And there's definitely a place for it, a very important essential place throughout history for it even. And it's really naturopathic medicine is really just expanding the understanding that the human body goes is, is not just, it's not just a reductionist approach of this is your problem and this is the only thing that's related to your problem and that there's could be many things related to your problem. And that we ourselves are very complex organisms and a greater ecosystem in nature. And we evolved over millions of years with all these cycles and rhythms and everything. And it's just learning how to work with all of that. Millions of years of evolutionary biology and cell biology and cellular health and nutrition and everything to bring somebody back to life.

Right? Yeah. Embracing all these factors to me is a sign of respect, of respect of just the complexity of the universe and of this life that we live on earth. So I think the reductionist approach is it's. There's some kind of inherent arrogance thinking that everything can be reduced to a single cause. And a lot of times it's not one thing that's producing a problem, is multitude of things. So if you're only trying to address one thing, you're are always going to be falling short.

Right?

Yeah. So. So you have a particular, you have a particular interest in muscular skeletal health.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think because of my education in naturopathic medicine and in our curriculum, like I mentioned, we learned a lot about physical manipulations and about traditional Chinese medicine and acupuncture meridians and seeing how all those things are correlated even in applied kinesiology where they will use muscle testing to target different nerve root levels. And those same nerve root levels also innervate different organs and those organs are involved in different processes and, and through that you can kind of understand, better understand what's going on. So I'm really just trying to depict that the body's a little bit more interconnected than we really understood before.

Do you utilize that here at Char Health when you are Treating patients with musculoskeletal problems, does that make you think about other organs?

Definitely. Absolutely. Yeah. So when somebody is telling me that they have pain in their knee and that they got imaging and, you know, it's, oh, there's some degeneration going on inside there. Great, that's useful information. Now let's do a little bit of physical exam. And so I started physical examining them and then turns out, oh, it's actually referring from another location. And also based on your history, you're also consuming, you know, lots and lots of sugars and other things and your sleep is terrible, so you're not even allowing your body the opportunity to reset itself and heal. So there could be even just a lifestyle origin etiology to their pathology, you know, not just, oh, it's wear and tear from using my knee all the time.

Yeah. So, yeah. So something as, you know, simple as lifestyle is not really simple, but people don't pay enough attention to it. And then when they get aches and pains, they don't seem to want to think about it and they only want to focus on where it hurts. Yes, but how do you think the lifestyle is affecting their joint pain?

I, you know, there's, there is actually a patient that I had that obese and diabetic and was having a lot of joint pains and such. And I remember when I was doing their intake and I was spending a lot of time asking them questions about their lifestyle, about their diet, about the things that they're consuming, and I was really getting to the nitty gritty of that. And at a certain point they kind of had a little bit of an outburst saying, why are we spending so much time on this? And I said, well, you're telling me that you have chronic pain and stiffness in your joints and, and that for breakfast you're, you're eating like donuts and you're going to fast food restaurants, you know, etc. There's, there's a reason why I'm going into all of these things because it's related. The inflammation that's going on in your guts, the dysregulation that's happening in your immune system, which is really important for all these repair mechanisms. You know, you're just, you've wrecked it over years. That's. We have to address that, you know, in order to actually address healing those joints.

Yeah. Was he willing to change his lifestyle?

Yeah, at the time, I think he was. He was kind of dismissive. Some people are more willing than others, and sometimes people are motivated by their Partners. And in this case, he was motivated by his partner, his wife, who was a little bit more health conscious, to come in and do the intake. And not too long after, we had this very, very long and comprehensive talk about how important nutrition is. I remembered seeing him later at a seminar and he was just loading up his plate with all the pastries and everything. And I was just like, oh my gosh. But, but that's not a, that's not a typical story. A lot of people are actually, it is kind of a typ. A lot of people are not willing to make those basic fundamental changes and, or willing to open their minds to what else could be contributing to their issue. But there's also a lot of people that are willing to learn that about themselves and those changes.

Yeah, I think we probably at our clinic seeing, see people who are more motivated than not motivated, but we will get some. That I've seen, I've seen that in stem cell therapy, in patients who are eating unhealthy food, drinking alcohol, but there's no way that they want to change is that I'd rather just come here, do stem cell treatment and get my inflammation down and, and get everything better.

Right.

Have less pain. I said, but your, your results are going to last so much better. Your overall health is going to be so much better if you just make these changes and they're like, ah, nah, that's okay. I want to enjoy my life. But the thing is, there's a way to enjoy your life without trying to kill it at the same time.

Right.

And there could be a good compromise. That's why there are a lot of amazing recipes that are still tasty but healthy.

Yeah, yeah.

So, yeah, I've seen you doing some magic, you know, at our clinic with patients and our other doctors have watched you do things and they're like, we don't know what Dr. Mike is doing. He's. He's talking about all these interesting things. You probably were talking about de connections, neuromuscular junction and how different meridians are affecting things. Right. So that's really cool that you're bringing that into, into patient care.

Yeah, ye, absolutely.

Like, back pain is something that's difficult. Right. It's so prevalent.

Right.

What is your approach when you are doing back injections? Let's say somebody has a herniated disc, like, what do you do?

Yeah, yeah. So after, let's say we talked about a lot of the other issues and systems and make sure their foundations are in place. I'd like to find out, you know, exactly what's going on. How do we, how can we calm the acute inflammation? And then here at the clinic here, we have a lot of tools. We utilize therapeutic ultrasounds, we use shockwave therapy, we have cold lasers. I do some body work on people. And then, and then there's different kinds of injections that we utilize, like stem cell therapy injections or exosomes that can really help boost regeneration to the area and modulate the inflammation that's going on there. Perineural injections where I use a small concentration of dextrose subcutaneous to help calm down neurogenic inflammation. And even neural therapies like using procaine or lidocaine just to help reset the nerve, charge the tissue, charge help. Some muscles might have been pulled or spastic. Yeah, there's a lot of tools that we can use to help kind of troubleshoot somebody's.

So you decide what kind of origin the pain is from and then you decide on the approach.

Yeah. And a physical exam is a great way of doing that. I can't tell you how many times I've talked to patients that have gone to see their primary care or an orthopedic doctor. Orthopedic surgeon, and they don't even touch them. Hmm, don't even touch them.

Yeah. What you usually discover when you actually.

Touch them, you learn specifically where their restrictions are coming from, what level their pain's coming from, where the referrals coming from their own body will give you feedback. Yeah, they're aware of that themselves even. And you can home in on specifically what's going on using that feedback.

Let me ask you, have you seen people with the same MRIs, very similar MRIs, but then they're. The origin of their problems are completely different.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely. So people will have a total like a totally clean MRI of their back. Not significant degeneration, but they're in a lot of pain. Or people that they have a lot of significant degeneration and they're not in a lot of pain. So imaging is very useful and sometimes very life saving in certain issues, but it's not the whole picture. And you know, getting in there having good, okay, what's going on? Palpation, moving the body, getting a whole dynamic movement on them can give you a better idea of, okay, it's coming from these muscle fibers in this particular position. And then if you can target it while they're in that position, then that can help resolve the issue.

How amazing. Yeah, that's so interesting. Such a dynamic way of thinking about the tissue.

Yeah. I mean, we're dynamic organisms, so.

Right. And I remember for one of these patients that. That you've treated had acute disc herniation, right?

Oh, yeah.

Really bad shape. Coming. Coming in with a cane, bent over, like. What did you do for him?

Yeah. So did a physical exam and we did shockwave therapy very gently to help kind of stimulate the tissue, tenderize the fascia, to prepare it for other therapies. Cold laser, we did stem cell therapy injections locally just into the paraspinal space at that level. And I saw him a couple of days later when he was standing erect, strong, confident.

He was.

He was wearing a brace, but he. I mean, the way he came in, he was just like, just any direction, any movement, and then couldn't. He was. And yeah, and then he was able to.

Was crying because he couldn't get off the toilet. He was crying on his own before he came in.

Right.

Just. It got to the point where it was not getting better.

Right?

Yeah. That's pretty amazing of how fast the response was. So you were just a little bit at the. The shockwave therapy and the cold laser.

And the stem cell injection.

What do you think the cold laser does?

The cold laser is kind of like a red light therapy. So it's a photo biomodulation, but Instead of using LEDs, it uses a laser. So it's significantly more photons at that wavelength, coherence at that wavelength, better penetration. And there's different wavelengths that we utilize. Red, the most common one. And those things, they stimulate different enzymes.

Could the laser we use also have.

Green, Green and violet? Right? Yeah, they target different enzyme complexes on the cell, in the cell membrane, but also even more well understood in the mitochondria and the electron transport chain. So it can really make those enzymes more efficient and shuttling electrons to produce more ATP, which is cellular energy. And your cells need energy for pretty much everything that they do, including resolving and repairing the tissues that are affected.

Yeah, you're. You're juicing it up.

Juicing it up basically with light. I love that, that we use so many different modalities.

Right. And the shockwave, it's pretty interesting. And you use that a lot in musculoskeletal issues.

Definitely.

So what do you think? You mean for. For tendon to. For joints. I mean, you use. You use it for all those situations.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what does it do when. Yeah, that sound. Shockwave.

Yeah, So a couple of things. It kind of just mechanically stimulates the area and then also causes the cells in that area to release cytokine signaling, to say, hey, kickstart the repair process, boost angiogenesis, bring more blood flow to the area. So I love to use that in conjunction with local injections because you're priming the environment and then you're delivering awesome nutrients or stem cell therapy or exosomes or something that's going to now really, really potently stimulate the repair process.

Yeah. So do you have different approaches when it comes to acute sports injuries versus chronic osteoarthritis type of problems?

Definitely. When we're dealing with something that's acute, then there's. There's more of how do we. It's. It's more of like a local addressing of the issue. Whereas if something is chronic, I'm thinking more systemically. And now we're talking about your diet, now we're talking about your lifestyle, we're talking about your sleep, we're talking about how can we improve all this supplementation with nutrients, with peptides, peptide therapy, to really, you know, get a lot of cellular signaling going to help restore normal function of all these different systems in your body and, and also addressing that specific area. So there's a little bit more involved, I would say, with chronic issues than acute issues. With the acute issues, those things are important, but they're not, as I would say, as significant to their underlying cause.

Yeah, yeah. So at our clinic, when something's chronic, we often, almost all the time, recommend IV stem cell therapy. And I think, you know, to your point, boosting your body's functions, such as immune function, has profound effects in local healing. And I think that's why our results are so good, because we're targeting some of the root causes, which is your immune function, is your inflammation level of throughout your body. Right. Yeah. And I know you've done, you know, in your practice, you had. There was a period of time that you weren't using stem cells.

Right.

And then you started using stem cells. Do you see a difference in.

Yeah, I do see a difference. I think the resolution of their issues would take a lot longer without the stem cells. Without the stem cells. And maybe some things would have to really more deeply finesse in order to access those things. But, you know, being here at this clinic and doing the stem cell therapies, I sometimes see really accelerated types of regeneration. That's accessing things that you would not have anticipated, like pretty incredible things. Doesn't always happen, but it's. When it does happen, it's very surprising.

Yeah. What are some of the, like, surprising results You've seen in patients.

Yeah, so, so for example, we had a patient, 60 year old woman with multiple sclerosis and trigeminal neuralgia. So this, this nerve pain across her face, and she was getting anywhere between 30, 40 nerve attacks across her face. So I mean, just imagine for the listeners, you know, burning sharp glass shards across her face, 10 out of 10 pain, she said 12 to 20 out of 10 pain daily for years, about two years. And, and when we, when she came in, she was very apprehensive about doing stem cell therapies. And eventually we were able to do an IV and some intranasal exosomes and things. And almost immediately, I mean, within a couple of days, she stopped having nerve attacks across her face. Even when previous medications, she had seen neurologists and tried, you know, nerve blockers and steroids and things, and none of those things had helped or worked. And so then when we followed through with her over the course of months and months, she had maybe two attacks every two months and the attacks were significantly less. So just imagine changing. Yeah, 30 a day.

Yeah. I remember this patient, I heard that she was actually suicidal from the pain before.

Yeah. Pain can be very consuming to your mind.

Yeah, for sure. That's amazing. Yeah. Giving people hope. Yeah. Can you give us another, another example? Help inspire us?

Yeah. Okay. So one thing that I, that was kind of very interesting for me, just in my career of practice and maybe tying in together, why looking at the whole bodies is important, I remember I, I was assessing and treating this, this young woman in her early 20s. She would have recurring migraines and she was having this acute migraine that just wasn't going away for over a month. And her medications that she normally used, it wasn't touching it. So she came, so she came to me, she wanted me to just do some body work on her. So if I was just doing some body work and as I was assessing her neck and her, and her spine, there is somewhere in her lower thoracic spine that was just very hypersensitive to pretty light touch. And that to me, kind of sparks. Okay, there's some sort of overactive nerve here. Okay, why don't we just do a perineural injection, subcutaneous, just right over that. So let's just see what happens. So after I did a little bit of body work and some massage and myofascial release and stuff, then I just did a one injection of 5% dextrose subcutaneous, right at that spot. And within seconds her migraine disappeared.

Oh, My goodness, that's incredible. Wow.

So it speaks to a few things. Like one, assess the whole body. Two, look at it's. The body's all interrelated, all interconnected.

Wow.

That's incredible. Actually, I haven't. I have another story. It's actually somebody that was. That's kind of a distant relative of mine and relative, relatively young gal. And I would stay in touch with her and her family every now and then. And she complains of having this kind of back pain that just wasn't going away. And it was affecting her, her breathing. If she took a deep breath and she felt shallow breath, sometimes she went to doctor, doctor, they diagnosed her with asthma or bronchitis. They gave her antibiotics, they gave her inhalers, they gave her corticosteroids, they even gave her ibuprofen and other NSAIDs. They gave her gabapentin. I mean, they were just like throwing things at her, just left and right for two years until there was some sort of like family reunion. And I took a look at her and there was a. Her rib head was slightly dislocated in, in the back by her spine. Okay. And I just did a little bit of a body work manipulation and it kind of finessed it back into place. That's by my own, my own diagnosis. And after I got that back in place, she started crying and she was like, oh my God, like, I haven't been able to take a deep breath like this in years. And so I think it's really important to look at the body as a multi system approach. Look at the body as a multi system, interconnected, everything's interrelated. And then of course, there are, you know, really advanced cases that require, let's say, surgery where it's just, it's kind of unavoidable at that point. But there's so many things that you could do before you get to that point. Unless you have like an extreme trauma, like a car accident that really wipes it.

Yeah, yeah. So I think you are, you know, demonstrating by these manipulations and how you're able to help the body repair. That speaks to the power of the body. Right. If you just give it, you know, put it in the right place or, or give it a little bit of agitation, it does its own thing again, it can bounce back.

Right?

Yeah.

Stimulating the body's own healing responses and, and utilizing stem cell therapies is, is actually a great way of doing that as well. I mean, just from the things that I've learned from you and from working here Stem cells therapies, recruiting your own repair processes. When for some reason your body's not able to mount enough of that signaling or be sensitive enough to that signaling, or we can use that to help really push and drive those healing pathways. So we get everything in place, get the foundations set up, get the right nutrition, get on the right regime and get the body aligned and then give it that rocket fuel, you know, to really take off in here.

Yeah. Amazing. And you've done some interesting injections, including the tmj, right? Yeah, yeah. Actually, was that part of the learning when you were in naturopathic school?

A little bit. So the time that I was in the later half of my naturopathic schooling, they were introducing injection techniques and injection rotations and clinic shifts and such. And I've also been had the, the, the pleasure of being able to work with other naturopathic doctors that have done an extensive amount of local injections. And then not only that, but I've also done a lot of acupuncture back in Arizona because that's a part of our, our practice over there. And I've just needled just about pretty much everywhere you can imagine.

Yeah. What do you think needling does?

Needling itself, like acupuncture, needling and a couple of. So there's different ways to look at it. There's the more reductionist way of looking at it where you're causing a little micro trauma to the area which then stimulates the body to recruit repair and healing to that. You can help release restrictions that are going on. Sometimes when you have improper blood flow or you're doing repetitive movements, then the fascia and the musculature will tighten in a certain area. It's not able to detoxify itself like the lactic acid buildup. And it just kind of compounds and creates trigger points and referral pains and then just festers inflammation and discomfort. So you can kind of help release those with acupuncture either directly on that or in different locations to help release the whole muscle itself. And then of course there's traditional Chinese medicine and.

But.

And there's also other systems like in Ayurveda that have their NADIs and which are other meridian type systems. But it's basically looking at. There are these lines of. In traditional Chinese medicine, there's meridians, the energy channels. There's these energy channels. And I think these energy channels is, is a combination of a few different things that's going on. It's. You're looking at connective tissue, fascial Chains, that's one thing. You're looking at nerve distribution patterns. You're looking at even how electricity moves throughout your body outside of even just looking at nerves specifically. And they've, they've done that. There was French scientists that went through and mapped the whole body with, using probes and electrodes and finding that there are actually lines of lesser resistance, lesser electrical resistance. And it closely correlates to the traditional Chinese medicine marine system. And so when, almost like that game of operation, you know, when you touch a little metal side and it goes, that's happening on a, on a micro level, little cellular level. When you put a needle in a meridian, that's accessing a chain and then that, that particular chain goes through and accesses more distal parts of or proximal parts of your body and your organs and such like that. So even if you're not practicing acupuncture per se, but you're doing body work or you're doing other kind of local injections, you can still utilize the body's, you know, this incredible system.

Right. It's like a web. There's highways that, that's.

Yeah, yeah.

I think, I don't know the exact origin of acupuncture, but I think I, I heard some stories of, of early ancestors. The Chinese actually visualized it in meditation like they actually saw.

Yeah.

These energy channels.

Yeah. I mean when you get into the kinds of people, monks and gurus and these, these other Taoists or whomever in these, these ancient traditions, accessing these really deep faculties of subtlety and how your body moves and how your body responds, utilizing their own nervous system, their own awareness and they're able to. Yeah, I've, I've worked, I've also, I've done some study and, and yoga myself personally. So I have a lot of self experience with meditation and body movements and body awareness and I think I bring a lot of that into my, my practice in general as well.

Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. I'm so happy to have you here that you're, you're just contributing so much to our patients health and also teaching other doctors, you know, of your, your expertise, anything else that you are super passionate about treating. Like something that, that's really kind of like something interests you in particular.

Yeah. I don't know if there's, if there really is necessarily something specific like that. I think I've treated a lot of different kinds of conditions. I think what interests me or what gives me passion is really just being able to help the person in the greater context of humanity and our life. I really view my like, and that we're all in this kind of healing school together. And I'm learning I don't know everything. There's a lot of things I don't know, lots and lots of things that I don't know. And I think it's good to stay in that place of, okay, I'm learning I'm still student, you know, of life, because that keeps you open and receptive to every new situation. And that new situation, if you're really present with it, you can gather a lot of really valuable key jewels of wisdom and then you can take that to the next person. That, that wisdom and, and something that I, that I also really like is learning from patients. Oftentimes patients are ex. Kind of experts in their own conditions sometimes because they've gone from specialist to specialist to expert to expert. They've done tons of research on their own condition. So then they come to the office and, yeah, I have my medical school background. I remember that PowerPoint lecture, you know, in third year or something, and I saw that condition maybe like once ever or something. And then they come in and they just like, wow, they teach me a lot. And then they're also connecting in their own social circles, on online forums with people with the same condition and what they've tried and everything. And so that's. It becomes really valuable to then help the next person. So it's really just staying open that, yeah, we're a healing community. That's really what it's about. Yeah.

Patient became a researcher and then. And then spread the research around.

Absolutely.

To doctors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for this. Really, really, you know, great interview, great information, I think. Yeah, we look forward to all. All of us doctors at the clinic, you know, continue to learn from you and. And then, you know, make more healing together.

Awesome. Thanks, Dr. Kong.

Thank you.