How To Negotiate With A Narcissist - Rebecca Zung on The Dr. Joy Kong Podcast

I didn't know exactly what I was dealing with, of course, at the time, because I was so young.

With narcissists, they see things in black and white. So everything for them is either, you know, you're either for them or against them. It's good or bad. When that part of their brain becomes triggered, you're no longer interacting with rational, you're no longer interacting with reasonable.

How would you disarm them and make them easier to work with?

I always say, step one, don't run. Step two, make a U turn. Step three, break free. Because people need those baby steps. They want to know where can they begin. You have to know where it is that you're going.

Hello, everybody. Welcome Back to the Dr. Joy Kong podcast. I'm so excited. Today I have a subject that is near dear to my heart, I guess is all about narcissism. So this is a little bit deviation from what I usually do, but this is all part of our health and wellness. So as you know, this podcast is about how to enhance your life for both your health and for your mental state and how to really take life and enjoy it to the maximum. So today's topic is something that I think most people would have encountered, narcissism. And I brought in a foremost authority on the subject, Rebecca Zhang. So thank you, Rebecca, for being here.

Thank you, thank you so much for having me.

Yeah. So I want to introduce you a little bit to the audience. You're luminous. I would like to them to get to know you a little more. So Rebecca is one of the top 1% of attorneys in the nation, having been recognized by the U.S. news as one of the best lawyers lawyers in America. She's also a globally recognized narcissism negotiation expert with more than 35 million views on YouTube in two years. And she's the creator of the Slay Negotiation Method. She's the author of the book Slay the Bully which just came out, how to Negotiate with a Narcissist and Win. And she has two best selling books, Negotiate like youe Matter, the Surefire Method to Step up and Win and as well as a book, Breaking Free, a step by step divorce guide for achieving emotional, physical and spiritual freedom. So Rebecca's perspectives are in high demand by television and print outlets and she has been featured on Extra, Forbes, Huntington post, Newsweek, Time, Dr. Drew and various podcasts. And Rebecca also has her own podcast, Negotiate your best Life and it's ranked in the top 0.5% of all podcasts globally. She, along with In n Out Burger owner Lindsay Snyder Ellison is also the founder of a nonprofit organization called Slay Legal Aid, which provides legal aid to those in need. So thank you for all you do, you, Superwoman Rebecca.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's such an honor to. To be here.

Absolutely. I think this is such a crucial subject maybe some people are not familiar with, even though they may have encountered it in their lives and may have been a victim, but. But they may not know what it was. So what, you were an attorney. How did you even get into narcissism? I mean, is a deviation of. Of what your profession was?

Yeah, well, it definitely was kind of, I would say, sort of kicking and screaming, because I actually was. I was, you know, practicing law, and then I wanted to go into more entrepreneurial things, and I went into several different entrepreneurial endeavors, and in one of those endeavors, just a few years ago, I ended up in a business partnership with a female who turned out to be a covert narcissist.

And.

And I was still practicing law part time at the time, so I. And I was practicing law part time. And then I was also in this other business partnership with this female covert narcissist. And I didn't know that that's what she was. I just knew that she was making me crazy. It was only after I got out of that partnership that somebody said to me, oh, that person was a covert, passive aggressive narcissist. And I thought, what is that? You know, So I started reading about it, and I. I thought, oh, my God, that is exactly what this person is. Well, so I started applying what I was learning about narcissism to my cases. And it was like I discovered penicillin. It was like, oh, my God, all of these crazy narcissistic people started actually doing the things I wanted them to do in these cases. And so I thought, wow, I'm really onto something here. So. And then right after that Covid hit, so I started actually doing some videos on how to negotiate with a narcissist on YouTube, and that's how this whole thing kind of came about.

Hmm. So you have some particular methods of dealing with narcissists? Maybe first telling the audience, what is a narcissist and what is a covert narcissist?

Yeah, that's a great question, because I sure as heck didn't know. I thought I knew what a narcissist was, but I didn't. I mean, I had practiced law for a really long time, and I certainly heard the word thrown around, but I thought A narcissist was like a male sort of misogynistic, big mouth guy who filled the room and demanded the best tables in the restaurant and told everybody how great they were. But that is not really what a narcissist is. And it's not a person who just tells, you know, says something good about themselves either. You know, that doesn't make you a narcissist and it doesn't make you a narcissist. If you're confident about yourself, that's a good thing. You should have confidence in yourself. But it's a, it's a person who actually is the opposite. It's a person who feels complete shame about themselves. It's a person who feels total pain. And so this is a person who feels totally empty inside. And so they have to get all of their feeling of external, of value from external sources. And it's like they have a black hole deep inside of them and this big huge void inside of them. And so they want to get all of their feeling of value from, from outside sources. It's a spectrum. So at the end of the spectrum is narcissistic personality disorder. And, but you know, there's this need to fill this, this, this black hole. And so what happens is they suck all of this energy from people around them. So it's, it's either big houses, money, cars, you know, the, anything they can do to fill their ego, or it's going to be manipulating people, degrading people, treating people poorly. You know, so they fill their ego that way too. But however they can to fill this black hole inside of them, that's what they try to do. But they can never be filled. So you're left feeling totally and completely empty and, and, and sucked dry. And yet they're still starving.

Yeah, that's a good definition. So I guess people can encounter them mostly from two situations. One is from relationships and the other one is from work. Right. How do they manifest differently in these two different circumstances?

Yeah, I mean, I think that they can, you know, it can be your neighbor, it can be your family, it can be your boss, it can be your co worker, it can be, you know, you can find them anywhere. I was actually just talking to somebody recently and it was like, like their, their tenant or their, somebody in their, their apartment complex or whatever. I mean, you literally can find them anywhere, right? And you know, wherever you find them, they're going to be making your life completely and utterly miserable because they're trying to suck that feeling of supply from you. They literally get off on that feeling of. Of making you miserable. That. That feeling of making you miserable gives them a feeling of high. That's what I call diamond or coal level supply. There's d. What I call diamond level supply, which is how they look to the world, their image, or what I call coal level supply, which is feeding off of making you miserable or being passive aggressive or degrading you. I think the better question in some ways is how they manifest differently as far as covert versus grandiose, which is a covert narcissist tends to be more like. More stealth and how they go about it in. In their. Their. They tend to be more passive aggressive. They tend to be more under the radar. They tend to be more. What I call like clean hands. They tend to be more like. So the. I'll start with the grandiose. The grandiose is the one that fills the room. The grandiose is the one that everybody knows that they're there. They're the bragging, I want the best tables. I am so great at this. And everybody knows it. They're interrupting the conversations. They tend to be the. The ones that are the risk takers, the impulsive ones, the. They ask you how you're doing, but they don't really stop to listen to the answer to the question because they don't really care. And they're, you know, they're in the middle of a conversation with you at a cocktail party, but if somebody better comes along, they're off having the conversation with them because, you know, there might be somebody better that came in the room. You know that like, that's the. The one that you think of is a narcissist. Right? The COVID narcissist is much more stealth about how they are a narcissist. They will, like, couch their. Their smearing of other people in terms of care. So they might say, oh, I'm just so worried about Susie and her drinking. Just so concerned about her, you know, but Susie probably has no problems with her drinking whatsoever. But it's just that they're smearing and. Or at work. You know, how it might manifest is I don't know how I left you off of that email chain. Why weren't you at that important meeting?

Why?

Wow, I really thought I had you on there, you know, and so all of a sudden, you didn't show up for a meeting that you were supposed to be at. But it's cast doubts, cast outs, you know, so just, oh, that, that dress looks so great on you. It really complements your Full figure. You know, they're very good at just that kind of little dig or just that. What's the name of your. Your new book again? I can never quite remember. You know, just things like that that are just a little dig, but nobody. Everybody thinks they're so nice, but you know that there is a little dig in there. So it's sort of like death by a thousand cuts. And. And so you're never quite sure where you stand with them. And. But it's just enough that if you tell people about it, that people might go, oh, but that's probably inadvertent. I mean, they're. They're so nice. You know, it's not so much that it's so bad to tell a person because, like, they're not beating you, but it's bad enough that you know that it's psychologically damaging to you.

Yeah, it can be very confusing. So what will be some kind of warning signs for people to pick up on? How do you know that you may be dealing with a narcissist?

How do you know? Well, most of the time when you're just starting a relationship with them, they come on very strong, very charismatic, very perfect for you. They want you to think that you're amazing, that you are meant to be together, that your soulmates that, you know, they want to meet your family right away. They want to. Or they want to be business partners right away. You know, where have you been all my life? Let's get to the next level. They want to get locked in as quickly as possible. Once they're locked in, then they get to, you know, breathe. I always say it was. It was almost like they were holding their breath. And then once they lock you in, then they can an exhale, and that's when you'll start to see the red flags. Well, then it's, why are you texting me 40 times a day? And why are you so needy? You know, you'll get your money when you. When you get it. And, you know, that's when you start to see the problems with them almost immediately. Projection, deflection, lying and denying is what I call it.

Yeah. So where did this dark side come from? You know, is it from a sense of entitlement?

They have a sense of entitlement, but that's a symptom, not the genesis of it all. The genesis of it all is actually the. The etiology, if you will, is really more from trauma in childhood. And the trauma in childhood is actually what happened was that during childhood they were exposed to what happens to all of us when we are exposed to stress on a regular and continuous basis, or any kind of stress on at any time, is that our sympathetic nervous system causes our brains to emit hormones, chemicals into, you know, into our system, which is adrenaline and cortisol. And when that happens on a regular basis, then it can cause damage into the brain. And when it happens with children, then it causes arrested development in the limbic system part of the brain. And so while their prefrontal cortex part of the brain continues to develop, the limbic system part of the brain does not. And so it actually causes a disconnect between the development of the prefrontal cortex part of the brain, which is the thinking and judgment part of the brain. So while they can grow up and, and do other types of things and, and be fine, the limbic system part of the brain, that emotional regulation part of their brain does not continue to develop the way that it should. And there's also a memory part of the brain in that limbic system. So what happens is when they are presented with situations that cause them to feel triggered so that, and it doesn't necessarily have to be rational or reasonable to the rest of the world. It probably isn't actually. What happens is it could be verbal or non verbal, but when they feel triggered such, you know, like it could be an eye roll, it could be a slight of any kind, it could be a tone of voice, it could be where they feel like somebody has slighted them in some way. It could be a loss of, perceived loss of control. It could be that, that they're going to be exposed in some way. Anything. I would say that narcissists hear tones like dogs hear whistles, that, you know, there's no tone. They hear tone that then that limbic system part of their brain becomes triggered. And when the other thing is with narcissists, they have a part of them, their personality called splitting, which is that they see things in black and white. So everything for them is either, you know, you're either for them or against them. It's good or bad. You know, it's all, it's like that. And so what happens is when that part of their brain becomes triggered, then that limbic system part of their brain now is dominant and takes over. And now you're interacting with that. You're no longer interacting with rational, you're no longer interacting with reasonable, you're interacting with that. And, and, and that's what's taken over. And when that happens, you cannot negotiate with them. And you cannot communicate with them in the same way that you can anybody else or a rational and reasonable person. I mean, you just literally can't. And the scary thing is that when you are dealing with them like that, then you are, you know, they, they will take themselves down to take you down.

I know you specialize in dealing with high conflict people. So who are these people? Are they mostly narcissists? How do you define these people?

Well, narcissistic or, or, or narcissists or people who have those traits or tendencies. Sure.

Basically another word for very difficult personalities. Right. They are just always confrontational and, and seems, you know, always dis. Dissatisfied. Would you say narcissism is at the backbone of a lot of these, these type of personalities?

From what I understand, according to the DSM 5 is that there are, you know, there's like 6.9% of the population could potentially be narcissistic personality disorder. But then there's other personality disorders that also could have no empathy, such as bipolar personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder. There's a lot of other personality disorders that don't have empathy. And so when you overlay all of those personality disorders, it could be up to 15% of the population. That's a huge part of the population.

You're an expert in negotiation with people like that. So people who lack empathy, people who, you know, seem to have an emptiness inside that derives their self worth by making other people feel inferior as such, how do you disarm them and make them easier to work with?

Slay is my method. And slay stands for strategy, leverage, anticipate and you. And slay is super strong strategy. L is leverage, which is invincible leverage that you create using the different types of narcissistic supply. A is anticipating what the narcissist is going to do and being two steps ahead of them. And Y is focusing on you and you being on the offensive. And you're in, you know, your mindset, knowing that 100% of your mindset is, you know, if you don't believe that you can win, nobody can help you. Right. So in the strategy though, I always say step one, don't run, step two, make a U turn, step three, break free. Because people need those baby steps. They want to know where can they begin. And you have to have that vision. You have to know where it is that you're going first of all. But what is that first baby step that they can take? And that first baby step that they can take is, is. It's just creating a boundary Just knowing, understanding that if you understand that you're dealing with a toddler stuck in an adult body, then you know, you can just take a look at them and go, I'm not going to take this personally. I'm just going to look at them as if they're a toddler and they're having a tantrum on the floor. And I don't need to take this personally. We can have this conversation when you are ready to respect me and then we can just start there.

Okay. And when you say make a U turn, what does that mean?

Well, that's the kind of the first, the second step because you really just, you, you gotta do full on course correcting, right? Because if you're feeling like you are, you've been completely retreating this whole time and you feel like you've been conditioned, like you've been disempowered, then making that U turn so that you don't feel disempowered anymore is, that's where you, you, you make that U turn and you go, okay, I'm turning this around. I'm not going to feel disempowered anymore.

Okay. So it's a more of a mindset.

Mindset. Yeah.

So when dealing with these kind of people, what are some of the tricks that they like to pull so that, so us on the other side is aware of, of just how the game is being played?

I think it depends on the situation that you're in. But you know, the, the one thing that they're going to try to do is keep you sucked in to their world and their lair so that they never have to give you up as a source of supply for them. So they're going to try to do whatever they need to do. So pretend that they're apologizing, pretend that they're going along with whatever they want you, you want them to do just for a period of time, you know. So let's say, I don't know, depending on what, whatever it is your relationship is. You, you know, it's always this sort of push, pull, push, pull, push, pull situation. So they push you to the brink, your breaking point, and then they pull you back in so that you, you feel like you might be getting somewhere again and then you realize that no, it's not that.

But what if the other person feels that, you know, the, the person that's dealing with a narcissist feeling that they're less powerful, that they have no leverage. So can they still get what they want? What do they do?

Yeah, there's always a way to get some sort of leverage. I mean, because the narcissist is always way more afraid of you than you are of them. You know, it's. I always say it's sort of like the wizard in the wizard of Oz, you know, where they actually are.

The.

That big head with the. The feeble little man behind the curtain. Because their power is always based in fear, not in abundance. And when you have power based in something that's true, something that's real, then that is so much more meaningful.

So kind of know your center, know your power.

Yeah. Once you have that, that's their kryptonite. I would say it's like the Glinda, the good witch in the wizard of Oz. You remember at the beginning of the movie where she says to the wicked witch, you know, go away. You have no power here. You know, because she knew who she was. And that's, that's what it's like to have authentic power.

Okay, So I know you have been teaching people on how to deal with that. I mean, with books to teach them. So are there, can you share some phrases that you can use to communicate with these people? How do you. How do you communicate with them?

Yeah, so there's great phrases like you can say things like, you know, this approach is not working for me. I. We can continue this conversation when you are more calm. You can say things like, I can see that you are upset. You can say things like, oh, that. Thanks for the feedback. You know, just. I agree with you. Like, I agree with you that this, that we aren't on the same page. They want to hear I agree. So you can say, I agree with you that, that that's what you think. You know, you just say that so.

That prevent them to be on the attack mode.

Right.

And I assume it's the best way, dealing with these people to just walk away and get them out of your life.

Oh, you definitely want to get them out of your life. But I mean, you may not necessarily just want to walk without, you know, trying to get something that you want, depending on what the situation is. I mean, you know, some people need to actually negotiate, you know, so if you, if that's the case, then you want to get the leverage that you want to get. And that's what I teach people how to do through the slay program. You know, so you have to create a source, and that's the L. So you have to create. You have to look at diamond level supply versus coal level supply, and you have to threaten a Source of supply, which is that diamond level supply that's more important for them to keep than the supply that they get from jerking you around. Because they will always let go of that, that, that co level supply to protect and defend their almighty diamond level supply. And that's how you do it.

So they may be willing to give up the belittling and you know, your ego in exchange to keep their glamour and keep their image.

To keep their image, whatever their image is how they look to the world. I mean, it might be how they look to employees, their new girlfriend, whoever it is, but they will always protect and defend their diamond level supply.

That's very interesting. So I've had my fair share of dealing with narcissistic people. I mean, not too many, but certainly very impactful. And I think one good example, if people are interested, probably my book Tiger of Beijing probably is, you know, I had, I didn't know exactly what I was dealing with of course at the time because I was so young, you know, I was only 20 years old. So. But I could see what you're saying about the diamond and the coal level supply and how the ultimate importance is the diamond level supply. If they can't, you know, if they see that they're failing at getting the coal level supply, if, you know, even if they can't get it, they're willing to let it go because they can always find another supply. Right. So but if they lose their, their shiny, you know, exterior, then that will be very crushing. So that was the final straw that they're not going to let go of.

Right.

And actually I think in negotiations a less powerful person, you know, in the power play could utilize that to their advantage. Right, exactly.

Oh, that's always the case. That's always the case. That's how you build your leverage.

And what about how, you know, I'm curious because you also help organizations, right? To, to deal with narcissism in workplace. Correct?

Oh yeah.

What are the main ways that you, you help organizations? Like how do you resolve these, these toxic, you know, situations?

I teach people how to communicate in a, in a way that's powerful and how to communicate in a way that's the problem is that people think if I just let it go, if I just, you know, maybe try to work with the person, I've been guilty of this myself, where I think, let me try to work with this person or let me try to work with that person. And then you don't realize how systemic it is. And then, you know, what happens is that one Bad apple has this ripple effect across the organization. And by the time you let that person go, it's not just the cost of rehiring and, you know, firing that person and rehiring that person, it's now the cost that that person has had, you know, on morale across that entire organization. And it can be quite detrimental. It can be quite detrimental. So, you know, people need to understand it's not just how to effective, effectively communicate, but really knowing the signs of, you know, a high conflict personality and how to deal with them effectively at all levels.

Yeah. So would be the best thing to just get rid of these people in organizations.

Either get rid of them or understand how to deal with them effectively by, you know, the rest of the organization knowing how to deal with them effectively, how to create boundaries, how to, you know, shut them down, how to not give them narcissistic supply, how to, you know, if. If the rest of the organization understands how, how to deal with the person effectively and not buy into that, then that will help too. But I think sometimes people, you know, they end up becoming that person's flying monkeys unwillingly, and they don't understand. And sometimes it's too late.

I think it's only in the last five, ten years or so that there's this surge in conversation about narcissism. It seems like it came out of nowhere and then, you know, everyone's talking about it and people are recognizing it. So what do you think happened in our psyche? Why narcissism. Narcissism start to become so prominent in our recognition and conversation?

I don't know. I mean, I have my thoughts, but I probably shouldn't say, might be politically driven or whatever. I'm not really sure.

Yeah, so. So you help people. You created programs to help people negotiate with narcissists because they're everywhere programs.

My new book, slay the bully, how to negotiate with a narcissist and win. I've got my slay program. Yes.

Okay. And where can people find your book?

So it's everywhere people buy books. It's a, it's a USA Today bestseller. Yeah. So anywhere people buy books. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Target, and where.

Can people follow you and listen to you?

Well, so Rebecca Zong TV is my YouTube channel and my Instagram is at Rebecca Zung and. And TikTok. My podcast is negotiate your best life. My. Yeah, I mean, I think that pretty much covers it. My. My website is Rebecca Zung.

So I understand that you have switched from being an attorney entirely now in this new endeavor of helping people deal with narcissists. Correct.

Yeah. So I. I say, you know, negotiation and high conflict communications expert, because I do a lot of things speaking and I have my digital courses and my YouTube program and I mean, there are quite a few things that I'm doing these days, but yeah, absolutely. I have masterminds, and there's a lot of things going on these days. I have my certification program, My certification program, my master high conflict certification program. We've graduated so many students already, and it's been really, really incredible.

Yeah, that's really inspiring. How did you go from an attorney to this basically entrepreneur in this whole direction and creating a very popular YouTube channel? How did you accomplish all that?

I. It just started during COVID I just started doing some YouTube videos and it just kind of took off from there.

Yeah, apparently it's very much a need. People are searching for the information. I think I encountered you back a few years ago when I was trying to figure out what happened to my life, you know, who are these people? And I realized these are narcissists. And so I went down a rabbit hole and found you as well. So, yeah, thank you for the work you do for empowering people and really to. To stand up for themselves and get their life to be in a. In a more positive place and not be yanked, you know, left and right. These people who have deep wounds and who are, you know, really infecting everyone around them.

Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.

Yeah. Thank you for sharing your wisdom, and I hope people go out and get your book and. And get some more in depth insights.

Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, so slaythebully.com they can check out my book there too.

Wonderful. Thank you so much, Rebecca. I really appreciate you being on the show.