Jordan P. Ferrarini: Moving Through a Project Quickly Without Losing Quality

Hello, you are listening to Germantown Community Radio, WRGU 92.9 FM. Welcome to the Jumpstart Philly Real Estate Radio Show, a weekly radio program that spotlights positive real estate development and neighborhood revitalization throughout Philadelphia. Hi, I'm your host, Derek Hengamil. Jumpstart Philly is a unique community development program that trains mentors, networks and provides funding to aspiring real estate developers in seven different Philadelphia neighborhoods including Germantown, where the program was founded. Jumpstart believes that you can do well by doing good and focuses on removing neighborhood blight, scattered site rehab, creating a healthy mix of affordable and market rate housing, and avoiding gentrification through slow steady growth and keeping wealth.

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interviews are conducted during Jumpstart Germantown's weekly jumpinar series on Monday nights at 7pm held via Zoom Webinar. For more information about these events, you can check out the events page@jumpstartgermantown.com this week I'll be speaking with founder of Trades for a Difference, Jordan P. Ferrini, who will share his tips for getting through a renovation quickly without losing quality along the way. I hope you enjoyed the conversation and be sure to check out the podcast version of this program@jumpstartgermantown.com media.

So Jordan is a Philadelphia native and a serial entrepreneur and is also an awarded contractor, real estate developer and philanthropist. He has successfully launched and piloted several successful construction based startups including Ferrini Electric, Northwest Professional Services and Northwest holdings llc. Jordan is also the founder and Executive Director of Trades for a Difference, which is a nonprofit community organization that builds community wealth through trade, education, community development. Jordan is an NKBA Person of the year and 30 under 30 recipient leadership, Philadelphia Keepers Alumni and an awarded State Senatorial Community Champion. His works have been featured in Philadelphia Magazine, Philadelphia Business Journal, the Associate Press and many other media outlets. And his pride and passions are in giving back to his community and in sharing his secrets to success in order to empower others. That is a great bio and I'm really excited to speak with him tonight. So Jordan, why don't you say hi to everybody.

Thank you for the introduction and Derek and thank you for the introduction as well and kind words. Angie. Hello everybody. I hope everybody's having a great day. I really went out there and seized the day. It's Monday evening now. I'm thankful for everybody tuning in to get this really valuable information. Hope that I can share some different tips and tricks and wisdom and just look forward to helping out any way that I can. So thank you.

Yeah, of Course, Jordan, we're happy to have you. And maybe we can just start by if you want to give like a super high level overview of what the topic is tonight and kind of just set us up.

Yeah, absolutely. So tonight is going to be all about how to navigate your projects quickly while maintaining quality, which is a really, really important part of this real estate investment game. We're taking on projects and taking our capital and loans and investing our time and our commitments. So it's really, really important for us to really move forward these projects fast and fluidly so that we're able to get in, get out, retain our investments, turn our profits and then keep that success momentum rolling into the next one. So a lot of these tips and tricks we're going to be sharing are going to be ways to help you all to do so.

Awesome. That's great. And my first question for you is probably pretty base level and it might be tough to give an answer, but just starting with the length of a project, on average, how long should it take you to complete the renovation of a single family row house? Well, let me rephrase. How long does it take you to do that?

Well, I'm gonna answer like, you know, in response to like what you typically hear, I'm gonna leave with that. Most people will always just tell you it takes three months. Three months. Three months. Three months. For some reason, people are really big on that three month timeline. Now there are a lot of projects that can take three months, but it really just depends on that project category. Like if you're in a facelift type of in and out project, it doesn't have major renovation, then yeah, three months or less is definitely feasible and realistic. Once you start pushing into projects that involve a little bit more renovation, altering like existing walls, changing out design, changing the design plans around, going with all new systems, you're usually going to wind up in that three to six month range. And then if you're moving on projects that are new construction more in depth, involve like multifamily triplexes and buildings that have structural needs and repairs, especially on the exterior facade, like brick and masonry and additions and things like that, then usually I like to shoot for that like five to seven month, five to eight month timeline, depending on the size of the project itself.

Gotcha. Yeah, so it sounds like it depends on, you know, what the scope of work is, but it seems like the general public sticks to that, that three month timeline, huh?

Yeah, you know, everyone loves to just spit that three month number out there. There are a lot of projects that can be done in three months or less. But I see a lot of real estate investors who are just getting started already having that kind of ingrained in their mind. Like no matter what they're doing, when it's going to take them three months because so and so said so. But in reality what other people say doesn't matter. It really comes down to like what you're capable of doing, what your level of competency is and how all your systems are set up to be able to move through the project. And you know, you never want to just put too much pressure on yourself or think just because you haven't finished a project in three months and you're just getting started, like you're messing up. Some projects take a little bit longer, especially your first projects out the gate.

Gotcha. So just to give people a scope of, you know, what your experience is, what's the quickest, easiest like out the door project you've had and what's the longest one? Maybe you can just like what's that range for yourself?

So like we have a few different categories, a few different types of projects that we work on on one of the ones we've been really big on have been what we call like a pre REO where we're working with governmental agencies to get properties that have been foreclosed on but prior to them going to foreclosure. And these tend to be properties that really just need facelifts. Like a lot of the systems are intact, they're structurally intact. So a lot of those projects we can get done in three months or less. Then other projects that we take on that are multi families usually tend to range in like that five to seven month range. And then more complex projects like we've taken on projects that have been historical renovations and things that are a little bit more involved from like make safe requirements and zoning situations from the city. Those could take a little bit longer. Um, but all in between those ranges, Right.

It sounds like once you push past that seven, eight month range, that's when you're, you're dragging things on or there must be some other like extenuating circumstance. Right?

Yeah, so we've had some projects like we always come out with the best intentions of projects being able to be streamlined and done really fast. But things do happen. And especially when you're dealing with different types of hurdles like make safe situations or special requirements from the city or you're doing underpinning or zoning, things can slow down and always not move as fast as you'd like. So you just have to be willing to be able to be a little bit flexible and just do the best you can do. But we've definitely had some projects that have run a little longer than we expected, especially in the midst of this COVID pandemic Over the course of the last year, I slowed a lot of people down and ourselves included.

Gotcha. So let's start talking about tools that you can use to really ensure effective renovation. And every conversation have with a contractor or anybody who's construction side of things, always they really strongly emphasize the planning of things. And they almost speak 90% about the planning. And they're like, everything else comes after that. And you said the same sort of thing on our prep session call. So let's start there. And maybe you can just start by telling us, you know, in the planning process, how can you start to ensure that you're going to have an effective quick, you know, like you said, in and out rehab.

Absolutely. So whenever we take on real estate projects, myself included, like, you're always eager to get them started and just roll them out. You know, you acquired a property, you get it under contract, and, you know, you secure your funding or you have your funding in place and you just want to go because, you know, it's fun, it's part of the process. You want to get things moving, but. But you always have to be conscious of just making sure that you don't start until you have your ducks in order. And you know, you cross your T's, you dot your I's, because it's easy to jump the gun and jump right in, and you'll be met more often than not with just all types of inefficiencies and setbacks and things that you could avoid it that if you really just invested more time into your planning fees. Now, I'm a big, big advocate for starting the planning fees when you're in the process of securing the property and purchasing the property even prior to closing. A lot of people ask me, should you start working on your design plans and your architecturals and getting the ball rolling with your contractors prior to closing? And for me, the answer is yes. Just because of past experiences. I'm fairly certain in most instances that we're going to have the ability to close, that we're going to be actually getting conveyed to property, and that everything is going to go sound and smooth. So I take a look at the possibility or the percentage wise of, okay, we're 90% likely to be closing on this and we'll start on the construction Planning phases prior to us even closing the property. Closing on the property. So this way, once we do close, you know, we've already undergone a lot of the planning phases and we're ready to roll and ready to launch the project immediately. But if there's an instance where you maybe might be fairly uncertain as to whether or not you're going to be closing, you know, don't waste a lot of money on the front end investing into, you know, plans and, you know, other forms of construction documents and going into spending a lot of your time because, you know, it could be time wasted. But if you are able to guarantee that factor, definitely get that process rolling as soon as possible. This way you can launch it the day you buy it, like most of us want to do.

Yeah. So once you finish the planning phase, I know, like, I guess you could just go to wit's end and over, I don't know, could you over plan or what's your take there? Like, I want to know what the jumpstarter should think of as their point where they're like, okay, I'm ready. Let's step foot in the building and start on construction. How do you determine that spot?

Well, it really depends on the size of the project. Like, you know, smaller projects are going to require less things around. Planning larger projects, especially once you, you know, you look at those big projects that are going on all throughout the city. And some of those projects, those firms are spending a year's time worth of putting together all of the prospectus and putting together, you know, all the documents and all their planning phases, you know, prior to launching. But with smaller projects, planning phases can be done relatively quickly. You could get them done in a few days to, you know, even a week, depending on how fast you move it. The biggest way that I determine that I'm done planning is after I go through my checklist and my spreadsheet. So I have spreadsheets that break down, like my different phases of planning. A lot of it starts with the design process and putting together those build documents. So after I get those completed, I check them off the list and then I move into my submission phases and just making sure I have everything for the city or for the county that I'm working in, and it gets checked off of the list in the spreadsheet. And then next I move into my budgets and my contracts, and I'm actually securing different bids from different subs or things that we might not do in house. And I'm getting three prices from everybody or four prices from everybody. And I'm checking them off of the list and then I'm moving into my scheduling. And I'm not only just scheduling my contractors, I'm scheduling my materials. And once those things start getting reigned in, I'm checking them off the list. I know I'm done my pre planning phase when I look at my checklist and I look at my spreadsheet and my spreadsheet is all filled in, or sometimes 80%, 90% filled in. But I know that I'm to that point to where I'm getting ready to be in a position to start moving on to launching the project.

Right. And I'm sure it took a couple projects for you to get a really solid checklist like that. Right. Like you didn't your first project, you didn't have a checklist you were working off, did you?

Well, I got. I've made checklists over the years from like my different contracting businesses. And I've also started off with like a checklist that was pretty minimal and just kept on expanding upon it. The other thing I've done is now I have other friends that are within the space and I'm really big on asking people a lot of questions and asking people if they can send me any documents they're using. So I've like made a hybrid of all different types of information that I've been sent and just kept expanding upon it until now I have like a checklist that is like pretty robust and it works for my projects. But everybody's checklist is going to be different. All your needs are going to be different. But I encourage you to have that checklist and to start going through it prior to you starting your project and, you know, be really like religious and disciplined about getting through that checklist prior to launching your project. Because when you have that checklist complete, the likelihood of you running into roadblocks and inefficiencies is a lot less.

Yeah. And it sounds like what you're saying about sharing information and getting information from others and asking questions. That's a great way to make sure you're planning right without having that experience behind you.

Yeah, absolutely. A lot of this planning, a lot of this, you know, the estimation pieces, the planning, everything really in this game, like you can get through shared information and all data that you're taking in, whether someone's sending you an estimate or someone sending you documents around the architecturals that they did, or speaking to you, or sending documents around his own application. Take all that information in and keep compiling it into your own database. Because it's going to be invaluable for years and years to come.

So my next question for you, and you pointed out some of them earlier, but I want to ask what are the main factors that you see contributing to the length of a project planning phase aside, say you did all your due diligence there and you feel like you're all planned up, there's got to be other things that happen along the way that you can't prepare for, you can't see from the outright. So what are those major factors that you see being the main things that determine how long a project is going to take?

So I think the first thing would be like being conscious of what type of project you're getting into and what that entails from a city standpoint or a city processing standpoint. Because if you're doing your projects legally, then you know you're gonna have to undergo different checkpoints and applications and submissions to the city. And this isn't a knock against anybody that might do a project, you know, without going through that process. This is just, you know, to speak to. Like when you do start to get to higher level projects and start undergoing those processes, even though I do encourage you to go about the right way, but that's a whole nother story. And you know, but when you're going through those processes for those permit submissions, it's important to even understand what the process is like. A lot of times if you know, you need to know, if you have a single family home that's a straightforward renovation, then you're going to be able to apply for easy permits, easy permits being permits that you could turn around and get one in one to three days. It used to be over the counter when downtown was open, but typically it's about a one to three day process and just understanding like what's entailed, what documents are required to submit with those permits so that your permit doesn't get rejected and spit back, or if it's a commercial project, you need to have an understanding of how long that submission or if it's a multifamily, how long that submission is going to take. Some people underestimate or don't anticipate the things that come along with 20 day business plan review, especially when you start getting your plans rejected during that first round or that first attempt or second attempt. So it's important to really understand like how long that process takes. So when you're submitting for permits that go on the plan review that aren't easy, permits that are going to Be like multifamily or commercial or buildings where you're changing the use. That's typically a minimum 20 business day process. As long as your plans are correct. And knowing those type of things is really important. Just to make sure that you don't submit, think you're ready to go, have all of your contractors loaded, locked and loaded, ready to go, and then boom, your permit gets rejected, you have to revise it and then submit. And then you're waiting another 20 days. And if you wind up with a bad architect, it could be even longer. Other factors are really important. That I touched on was like, when it comes into like make safe permits and make safe requirements. When you have a building that has structural issues. If you're looking on the Philadelphia Atlas, it's easy, pretty easy to identify it. Typically you can go to the philly atlas atlas.phila.gov and you can search under license and inspections, the tab and check to see if you have any CSU violations. And those CSU violations can entail that you have make safe requirements, meaning the building's been deemed hazardous. I can count a million times that people have been ready to start their project, ready to launch, thinking they're getting ready to get an easy permit. And then boom, they realize they have a make safe after purchasing the building and didn't even realize it. And it throws a big huge wrench in it. So it's important to understand how to navigate those processes. And a lot of it just entails working with the engineer. There's also just, you know, things around the zoning processes and making sure that you get that right. I think I've had like four instances relatively recently where people have either acquired duplexes or triplexes and they assume that it's legally zoned or has conforming use to then realize that actually they lost that use because the property was vacant for three years or more or because it was sold to them as a multifamily, but it technically wasn't listed as a multifamily with the city or the mapping and the overlays of that area change. But all in all, people realize that their zoning actually doesn't match up. And then they have to go through the zoning process. So it's important to get in front of that. And again, you could go to the Philadelphia TheAtlasPhila.gov prior to purchasing your property and checking the zoning to double check and triple check and make to make sure that you actually have that conforming use so that you don't get stumped the moment you're trying to get your project off the ground. There are people now that have just purchased a project, they're really excited, and then next thing they know, they realize they have to go through a two to four or six month zoning process, just depending on, you know, what district or what RCO they're in. So that's something to definitely watch.

It all goes back to that planning phase, Right. It's like, even when you try and talk about things that come through, come up through the construction, there's always a certain level or degree that you could avoid that if you work it into your planning phase, right?

Absolutely. You win when you buy and you win when you plan. So you definitely want to get ahead of it. And you just also want to just be conscious of, like, what you're getting yourself into. If you're biting off projects that are maybe in territories that you're not that familiar with. Like, I encourage you, like, work with a consultant or work with a really good GC who has experience in those type of projects, or, you know, talk with Jumpstart Germantown and Jumpstart Philly and leverage the resources at Jumpstart to really help you to get a better understanding of what you're getting yourself into prior to it being too late.

Yeah. So two other factors that we had gone over in our prep session were pinning and neighbor consent. And maybe you could talk on those a little bit. How could underpinning cause delays in a project?

Underpinning can cause delays in a project. I mean, a lot of ways. One, the unfortunate way, is when people start underpinning or do underpinning without going through the engineering process. And, you know, time and time again, throughout these last few years, we've seen houses actually collapsing throughout the area. So it's definitely something that you don't want to jump the gun on and get in. Even if you have a contractor that insists they know how to do it and know what they're doing, it's something that you definitely want to make sure that you keep above board because there's a lot of liability in it and you could basically lose everything you have or, you know, have someone send you off to jail for getting in trouble with that. So definitely always do it above board, but with the, with the underpinning. When you do go through the process with engineering, it's really important to get your engineering process right. You're going to work with the engineer who's going to be required to give you a plan to submit to the city. But after you had that submission, you're also going to be required to have that engineer review and do special inspections and just confirm that the underpinning is done. Right now, something that's new, that's new legislation that's in the midst of being passed that we've been working on trying to come to a compromise with the city with is neighboring consent. And this is something that's seen in a lot of other municipalities all throughout the country. But neighboring consent is when you, when you decide to go through underpinning to dig out your basement, you actually are going to have to get your neighbors to sign off and consent to that underpinning taking place, which could potentially heavily delay your project if your neighbor decides not to give, give you their consent. And it's something that definitely be aware of and be on the watch of because it could definitely slow us down. But it's just important to be conscious of those type of things that are potentially coming down the pipeline. But I'll definitely keep everybody informed with how it winds up rolling out.

Yeah, and just another thing that popped in my head that I've seen a couple of jumpstart projects or people with jumpstart loans is dumping and like just, you know, neighborhood rowdiness affecting the property in the construction site. Is there things that you can do to like help your relationship with neighbors or avoid things like that like vandalism or anything.

So like it's really important to have a part of your business practices to include the neighbors. Some neighbors will be more difficult than others, but at the end of the day, just maintain your integrity and you know, just, just lead with goodwill and good intentions. Something we're really big on now that we've been doing. Have been passing out gift cards to the immediate neighbors that are immediately like five houses over, five houses to the left, five houses to the right and across the street. As well as just being generally pleasant with the neighbors and opening up the lines of communication to them, it's important to just try your best to stay in good rapport with them. That can also be a double edged sword. So don't be naive to that fact as well because sometimes when you do open up the door to the neighbors, it can, you know, backfire a little bit and they can become a little bit overbearing. But I always feel like it's better to open those lines than to not. Because the neighbors can really watch your back and, you know, help you protect the property. And even when it comes to things like with the city, sometimes they could help you a whole lot. Throwing your side yeah, well, I hope

we don't see any line items in jumpstart construction budgets for neighbor gift cards or anything. That one's on you, Jordan.

I take it it's tenfold. Keeping the neighbors on your side like, can really help streamline your project, especially when it comes time to logistics, which is a big part about moving your property and your project efficiently. Being able to pull your trucks right up in front and having neighbors that are willing to collaborate or work with you. When you have those big loads coming in or you have those dump trucks out front or you had your spray foam guys there and they need to pull the truck up front, being in good graces with the neighbors can really help you to keep the project rolling.

Yeah, that's something I didn't even think about is like parking on a tight street or something. You want to be able to ask the neighbors to help out with that, huh? Keep it clean.

It can help you out a whole lot

if you're just tuning in. This is a conversation with founder of Trades for a Difference, Jordan P. Ferini, who's going to share his tips for getting through a renovation quickly without losing quality along the way. Thank you for listening to the Jumpstart Philly Real Estate Radio show on Germantown Community Radio, WRGU 92.9 FM. I hope you're enjoying the discussion.

Alright, so that's the timing side of things. So delays and how you can keep it moving along. Now I want to talk about quality and you know, we went over the factors for what caused delays and what project and now why don't we talk about what determines the quality of a project? What major factors do you see there? And I'm sure a lot of that comes to, you know, skill and a certain level of preference in terms of like, stylistic things. But let's hear what you have to say about that.

Listen, when it comes to quality, I mean, it definitely comes back to planning again as well. You know, planning, you start strong, you'll finish strong. A lot of things within that planning phase to really pay attention to in realm of quality is going to be your material selections and your material schedules. It's really important that you narrow those things down on the front end because if all of your contractors understand what materials they're using, then it's going to help them to be able to rough in, meaning on the front end when those first phases are going, they're going to be able to rough in and set up for those materials going in at the end. You know, if you have the wrong specifications Your contractor thinks you're putting in, you know, three quarter inch flooring and you're putting in 3 16. Your thresholds are going to be all out of whack and funky looking and you want to booby rig them. If your contractors think that, you know, you're installing a shower type diverter that has a certain set depth and you come with a completely different one, your shower diverter is going to be sticking out of the wall. So a lot of those things have that come into play on that front end with the materials is going to be really, really important to making sure that your contractors are building to the right specifications. Because you can start off things looking really pretty. In the end, all the materials come together and look like crap. So it's really, really important on that front end. Another big way that I like to be able to maintain the quality is through the contracts and through the coordination of those contracts. When I'm working with my contractors that are subcontractors, it's really important to make sure that their contracts include that they're going to do things in a workman like manner and they're going to clean up behind themselves at the completion of their scope so that dust isn't getting in the grout or in a joint to the floor or the cabinets aren't getting dinged up. Having that workmanlike business practices within your operation will really help you to maintain quality as well. And then other things like systems and specifically technology. Technology can really help you to keep everybody on the same page. And when you have your framer on the same page as your drywall guy, as the same page as your tile person, you'll see how much flatter your tile is going to come and turn out as opposed to if everybody's just all on their own accord. So that's just to name a few.

Cool.

Yeah.

What about payment schedules? I don't know if you mentioned that there, like if you're using a lender like Jumpstart, you know, you have four draws and hopefully your construction is kind of lined up within those four draw schedules. But for a project, say you're using private money or getting money from a bank that has a different draw system, you know, how can payment schedules really help you keep on track?

I mean, payment schedules can help you maintain from a quality perspective in major, major ways, especially when you structure your draw schedule to be aligned with their performance. So a lot of contractors will try to get ahead of you on a payment. So you'll see a bunch of people they want 50% from the get go prior to even seeing how the work turns out or how the workers perform. It's your job to not let them get ahead of it and maintain those checks and balances within those payments. Because at the end of the day, people can be the nicest people in the world, but they want to get paid and you have every intention of paying them. But per your contract, you will pay them when they perform and things are done to a workman like manner when they're done the installation, not two, three days prior. So it's really important to get those things locked into your contract because if you could control the money, it's a lot easier to control the quality. If something's done incorrectly, you can come to them and say, hey, listen, this is wrong, this isn't done right, this needs to be redone. Again. If you still have their payment, then the likelihood of you getting them to fix it is probably 90% higher. The other big thing I like to do too with my subcontractors is I'll have it in a contract set up to where you invoice on Monday, you get paid on Friday. So there's like a grace period. And during that grace period, that's when they submit their invoice on Monday. Prior to that payment on Friday. My site foreman or myself, we're going out to the site to double check the quality of the work. A lot of times people will submit an invoice or they'll hit you on a Friday and you may not even be at the site. And you know, you want to make that payment because you want to, you know, make sure that you're not playing with people's money and you want to keep your project fluid, but don't feel like that. They feel as though, you know, you have to have your business security and protecting your project with the payments they invoice Monday, you get out there Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday, check the quality of the work. If it's not done right, tell them they have to fix it. If it's done right, they get paid on Friday. The maintaining that type of control is really, really important because people will do things fast and wrong and you got to maintain that control to the payment.

So you hinted to it there. And my next question was going to be how often should you be stopping by the property? You know, depending on how many projects you have going on or whether you have a full time job or not, might be on a different schedule. But ideally, how often do you think a borrower should be at the project maintaining Viewing the quality and what's being done.

Well, frequently, whether it's yourself or whether it's your super or whether it's your partner, there needs to be leadership, you know, frequently walking these projects and just to maintain the quality of the projects, to keep everything up to par. Now, whether, whether or not that's going to be you, you know, that's dependent upon your business model. If you have your superintendent or your GC who has an airtight contract where he has a performance base and it's up, he needs to make sure he does things right, then you can go there, you know, once, twice a week. But if you're doing this yourself, it's going to be really, really important for you to get there as frequently as possible. If not every day, every other day. And when you're going to these projects, I'm a real big. I'm really big on not letting people know what I'm doing, not let people, not letting people know when I'm coming. You have to keep them, you know, on their toes because if you grow into a routine, it's easy for people to start noticing those patterns. And humans are humans. They'll do what you let them. No matter how good of a person they are, people will do what you let them. So it's really important for you to keep them on their toes. Now there's different forms of technology that you can use to really help you maintain those site controls. A big thing I'm starting to see are the smart cameras on the job sites. I haven't done that as of yet. Like from a monitoring standpoint. Still trying to figure out if that's a little bit freaky or not.

But

you prefer coming in and catching people off guard.

Yeah, but we also do things like we have T sheet systems where people have to clock in and clock out and clock in when they get there, clock out on their lunch breaks, clock back in afterwards, clock out at the end of the day. Those also have GPS functions inside of them to allow us to really keep reins on, you know, whether people are there, whether people aren't there, and keep things honest and true, because people will try if you let them.

So, so what are the apps you're talking about? You have any specific, like, websites or programs you use?

Yeah. So tsheets is a good app that's good for like, monitoring your employee traffic and monitoring people when they show up to the job site when they're leaving, as well as gps, could be GPS enabled. That's a app that you can purchase on your App Store and it's directly integrated with QuickBooks. So like it's like a, it's like a branch off of QuickBooks, so it's really easy to integrate it in with your QuickBooks. Another system we use is Buildertrend, and that's more like a project management based software now that has login and logout ability as well. Like people can clock in and clock out and there's GPS capability on that as well. But buildertrend takes it a step further and allows you to provide schedules and so that everyone's able to see those schedules. You also can upload building and material specifications. Remember, it's important that everybody knows what materials are using for quality. So buildertrend also has all types of resources for you to be able to upload the building plans and the building materials as well as a bunch of other great things as well. Cool.

Yes, I put some of those links in the chat there in case anybody wanted to look them up. I think we got about five or so minutes until we move into the live Q and A and I see people have been submitting questions throughout here, so I appreciate that. But before we get there, I want to talk to you in specific about scaling up and talking about everything you've talked about here. Seems to be in the reins of your first, second, third project, just getting into things. But as things begin to scale up and now you have four or five projects going at once and you start to work on bigger, like you said earlier, multifamily projects or things that are a bit above a normal row house renovation, what do you suggest to maintain speed and quality at that point? I imagine a lot of it comes from hiring people and like you said, just building on that experience and gaining information. But in your experience after, think about when you started to take on more projects at once and you weren't just dealing with one at a single time, what tips do you have for people then on how they can ensure quality and speed?

Absolutely, yeah. The more projects that you do, you know, the more important is the planning. But specifically the more important there is with the scheduling. Scheduling and coordination of multiple projects. Go like, in order to have that efficiency and to be able to scale, you have to be able to do that really, really well. Now you can go out and get five contractors that you need to run five different jobs, one contractor at every single job at a time. But that's not realistic in today's climate. Like, good contractors are really, really hard to find. So more realistically, you're going to wind up with like one or two good H Vac mechanics, one or two good framers, one or two good tile people, you know, one or two good plumbers, and you may even just have one of some of those categories I just mentioned. But the scheduling piece is going to be what brings it all together and allows you to run multiple projects at one time and allow you to be able to, like, lay the projects out so that you can stagger them. And you can have one scope streaming into the next scope and next scope breezing right into the next scope and everybody working in sequence and being able to stagger your projects out. There's a thing called a Gantt chart that is in a lot of the construction management software as well. There's one in Builder Trend as well. There's another software called coconstruct that has a good Gantt chart system. Those Gantt charts will really help you to be able to visually see, like, the critical path, we say, of a project and how those subs flow into each other so that you're able to coordinate them to be able to be at multiple sites at one time. This way you can go with your best people, keep them all in sequence and be able to really start scaling up. And while I'm talking about subcontractors, it's really important to make sure that you keep your prime subcontractor or your most important subcontractors all on the same page. And when I say most important, I'm talking about the top four. I'm talking about your electricians, your plumbers, your H Vac mechanics, and your carpenters. I encourage you all to do site walks, walk and talks, and have all four of those subs meeting on the site so that everybody can get on the same page, everybody can understand what the next man is doing, because them all moving cohesively really helps you to be able to maintain quality, really helps you to be able to streamline. And it really helps you with being able to stagger those guys, because those are going to be your main four that you're staggering across multiple projects. So having them in sync and in tune is really, really important.

Cool. Any other before we move on to the Q and A here, any other, like, quick tips or things you forgot?

I just encourage everybody to really just like, increase technology. There's a lot of technological advances, you know, even when it comes down to small things like FaceTime, you know, sometimes you might not have to make that trip to the site for that second time that day. If you're able to utilize FaceTime, or utilize some other application that you have, even when it comes to doing site walkthroughs and when people aren't there, your video camera and the quality of these cameras and the ability to trace things and put annotations with just a swipe of your finger, meaning, like giving details to your people, what you want done. Take advantage of those type of things because everything honestly doesn't have to be as complicated as it seems. Like you can just effectively communicate with your people about building something by writing a sketch on the wall. As long as the dimensions and the information is there, I mean, that information gets relayed and you're able to move your project forward. Well, technology allows you to do a lot of these things a lot easier. So I definitely want to encourage everybody to take advantage of it, actually.

Yes. Like maybe thinking too hard about things and like you said, just going overboard on the planning at some points can probably cause delays. It does exactly the opposite of what you're trying to do is when you think about it too much, right?

Yeah. I think in the beginning, though, it doesn't hurt to think about it a lot because eventually it's going to become second nature. Like, you'll be like Neo walking into, you know, through the Matrix. You'll just be able to see everything coming together and it just like. But all of that comes from putting that time in on the front end and really being a student of it and taking the tedious and, you know, the long route in the beginning, because all this information you're taking in, eventually, you know, it's just going to be something that you just know off of the back of your hand and it's going to pay dividends for the rest of your life in this space. So.

And that concludes my conversation with founder of Trades for a Difference, Jordan P. Ferrini, who shared his tips for getting through a renovation quickly without losing quality along the way. Next week we have an episode. We won't have an episode because of the holiday, but we'll have a new episode in two weeks featuring Felix Algore with the topic of residential appraisals. And you can look forward to that. As always, the interviews on this program are recorded during Jumpstart, Germantown's weekly Jumpinar series, which takes place via Zoom Webinar every month, Monday night at 7pm if you'd like to participate in a live Q and A with our guests, be sure to head to jumpstartgermantown.com events and register for next week's Jumpinar. If you're interested in starting a Jumpstart program in your own community, you can visit gojumpstart.org and see our how to Guide and Open Source Training workbook. Thank you so much for listening to the Jumpstart Philly Real Estate Radio show on germantown Community Radio, WRGU 92.9 FM. And be sure to tune in next week.