The Future of Sustainable Dressing with Julia Dietmar

Welcome to The Ethical Stitch, where fashion meets integrity and style gets a conscience. I'm your host, Michelle Aline, fashion strategist, educator, and sustainability geek. Let's unravel what it really means to create, shop, and live ethically.

Welcome back to The Ethical Stitch. I'm your host, Michelle Aline. This week, I've got a question for you. Who dares to let technology into their closet? We'll talk about that in a moment. We live in a world where our playlists are curated by algorithms, Our groceries show up with a swipe, and AI is writing everything from emails to love letters. But when it comes to fashion, the choices that live in our closets, we're still stuck in a cycle of buy, toss, repeat. So let me ask you, are you ready for the future? Because the most powerful tool for sustainable style may not be a sewing machine, a runway, Or a marketing budget. It might just be the app in your hand. So today we're going to go into that green room that we normally enter. It's where the heels come off. We strip it down. But this week it's digital. Picture it, your closet not just hanging in your bedroom, but alive in your phone. Outfits planned with precision, pieces altered, resold, restyled, circulating like energy instead of sitting like waste. Our guest today isn't sketching patterns or lobbying from a podium. She's coding solutions, designing algorithms, and building bridges between technology and sustainability. She's here to prove that sustainability isn't just about what buy, it's about how we use what we already own and how tech can help us do it better. Our guest today is Julia K. Dittmer. She's the co-founder and CEO of Open Wardrobe, an AI-powered platform reprogramming the way we think about clothes. Her mission? To keep garments in circulation and out of landfill by turning every closet into a climate solution. With Open Wardrobe, users can digitize their wardrobes, plan outfits, track cost per wear— I love that, by the way— resell and alter pieces, and connect also with stylists, influencers, and friends, all in one ecosystem. Julia's no stranger to tech and fashion. She's held senior roles at Yahoo Shopping, Walmart Labs, and View AI. She's seen how algorithms drive consumption, and now she's flipping the script to help them drive conservation. Giulia, a very warm welcome to The Ethical Stitch. It's a pleasure to have you here.

Thank you, Michelle. What a wonderful introduction. Thanks for that.

You deserve it. It's all you. Right. I love it.

Thank you.

This is a different perspective. I'm excited about speaking more about a digital platform or space with regards to sustainability. So I'm so happy to have you here. So let's, let's get into it. So for those discovering your platform for the first time, what is Open Wardrobe and how are people using it in their daily lives right now?

Yes. Open Wardrobe is, I'm calling it platform for mind mindful dressing. So it's an ecosystem of services and tools that help you in your daily life and daily chore of getting dressed, because we all have to get dressed in the morning, and this platform helps you. The second, uh, uh, secondary part is the mindful shopping, because we encourage people to use what they own already. But if you do need to bring something new into your closet, you can do it a lot more mindfully so that when you do bring that item, you wear it, you love it, you will cherish it for years to come instead of either tossing it or wearing it once or twice and then discarding it or even returning it immediately because it doesn't fit you, right? So those two things is kind of at the, at the core of the platform.

Fantastic. So what inspired you to create Open Wardrobe? Was there a personal aha moment that made you realize fashion needed this shift?

I think it was several moments. So I, my previous job when I was, uh, at Vue.ai, we were building personalization for retailers, personalization AI for personalizing experiences. And, uh, because we, it was based on computer vision, it lent itself very well to apparel. And I worked with so many apparel brands around the world, and they all struggled with how do we know our customer better. So that was kind of the first spark. And the second one was, um, during COVID we were still— we were all at home, right? And I was staring in my closet that was overflowing, and I'm like, I need to get this under control. How would I do that? So I started looking for solutions, and, um, uh, there were already apps out there that, uh, helped you digitize, but I felt that they were missing some essential components and what I wanted really to build was an ecosystem of services. So that's, that's how it started. So, you know, it's like many startups these days, probably the idea really kind of was born during COVID times.

Right. That's yeah, we had the time to do it. Some of us, right?

Yeah.

I love that. I was going to ask you for someone new to the app, what makes your app different from other digital closets and fashion tools? Did you maybe kind of just mention that? And how is it more sustainable?

Well, you can, you can use a spreadsheet and be sustainable. You don't really have to use an app, right? It's all about how you use, uh, um, how you use what you have and what you do with it.

Okay.

In terms of how our app is different. So as I mentioned, we don't consider ourselves just a digital closet. Digital closet is just one part of it. It's really an ecosystem of services that integrates very seamlessly into your daily life and into managing your closet. Yes, we are AI-powered, but AI is, again, it's— you don't have to use it. You can share it with your friends and you can have friends style you. You have your stylist style you, but AI is just there to help. It's, again, it's yet another tool to help you achieve your goals, whatever they might be. Sustainability could be one. Another one could be just to better understand what you like, what you don't like, what looks good, what doesn't look good, what makes you feel better. So it's, uh, it's been designed in with, with a notion in mind that we're here to help you with whatever your goals are as when it comes to getting dressed. So sustainability is a big piece of it, but if you don't want to be sustainable, right, you don't want to be consciously sustainable, let me put it that way. I'm hoping that everybody kind of understands the issues, right? But, um, if you just want tools to help you organize, help you understand, help you do better, and help you just feel better about what you wear, we're, we're here, here to help.

So who do you find your customer is? Like, who are these open wardrobers? Do we have a name for them?

No, we don't have the name for them internally, but open wardrobe. It's kind of a mouthful, but it's really, it's men and women. Of course, we're skewing women, women more than men, but we're getting more and more guys coming on, on our platform. The mind, mental model for dressing for guys and for women and men is different. And just kind of like, tell me what to do. Like I need to, I need to understand, but I don't need to think about it. Right. And for women, it's a lot more involved, right? So we take— and I'm talking in general, of course, right? I'm generalizing. Not everybody's the same.

Exactly.

Yeah. So, so we, we, we, we, a lot of times, like, we, we play with colors and we, we have different silhouettes and there is just so much more variety for women. So it sometimes gets overwhelming. So slightly different offerings for men and women. And in terms of ages, it's it's really all over the spectrum. So what I started noticing is some of our best customers are actually older and they're trying to really get a hold of, well, now I maybe I have time or maybe now I have more resources. Now I kind of really want to understand. I really want to have my clothing as a tool for me to feel better, feel younger, feel healthier, whatever that is.

Right, right, right.

But of course, younger people are— we have— if I just look at the demographic, the younger generation is probably majority, but the usage and how people use the app is very, very different.

Interesting.

And Michelle, you mentioned, so you mentioned cost per wear and that you love it. It's actually so funny because everybody kind of zeroes in on that statistic and that metric because it's very easy to understand, right? And it's like one of the simplest to calculate. You just take the whole cost and then you divide it by the number of times I wear it and that's it.

Exactly.

We actually now have a lot more, a lot more statistics that are more advanced for those people who, and we have customers who are really into numbers. They want to know everything about like everything, right? So we have, for example, investment versus usage balance, right? So let's say you invested, let's say 10% or 20% of the whole closet of the whole money you spend on your closet. On one category, but that category is worn maybe only 10% of the time. So if you want to understand those stats, we have them.

That's interesting. That can maybe help brands, the fashion brands that create the product for these customers in some way.

I'm seeing potentially, but even for consumers, right? Like you, you may be wanting to understand, do I spend, spend more on coats or bags or shoes. And yes, I, I, if I, you know, spend a lot on shoe and shoes, by the way, is the second biggest category in a woman's closet, according to our data.

Okay.

So if you, if you spend a lot on shoes, do you actually use them proportionally to the spend? Maybe, maybe not, you know, and it's completely up to you because some people are collectors.

Right.

Right.

I might be one of those mindful collectors. Can you tell me a little bit more about Lola AI? Is that your tech that you use in terms of AI? It's called Lola?

Yes, we gave her a name and it's a she. So it was an it and then we figured out, we were thinking like, should we give it a name? Because Open Wardrobe AI is kind of such a long name. And we workshopped it with some of our users and Lola, everybody loved Lola.

Okay.

And it stands for Lots of Lovely Algorithms.

Oh, nice.

So everybody, everybody loved the name Lola, and then people started personifying Lola. So it's like she be— it became a she and, um, you know, I'm getting like messages about, oh, she recommended this, but it's not working for me today. Or, you know, it's, it's very, very interesting to hear how people talk about Lola AI. So Lola AI does a couple of things. So first she, and I'm calling her she also, helps you, helps you organize, uh, digitize closet. So if you take a picture of your garment, everything else is done by Lolla AI. So recognizing a category, extracting colors, and, you know, all kinds of product attributes. It's not perfect. You know, machines are never perfect. One thing that I'm always talking about is that you always have to check, right? Because we are still in such early stages of these types of technology that, you know, training algorithm is kind of part of all of our jobs, so it becomes a lot better. Right. Serving us. And then the second biggest part that Loli AI does is outfit recommendation. So when you digitize your closet, for any garment in your closet, you can say, show me how to style it, and she starts spitting out many outfits, and you can say more and more and more. The idea here is to spark creativity in you as a user in how to pair items in different ways. Because a lot of us, we, we buy something or we walk in the store and we see an outfit on a mannequin. It's like, oh, this is nice. And we buy the whole thing. That's how we wear it. And we don't really vary much in, in how to pair it differently. So this is, this was the purpose, designing it so that it kind of sparks creativity. And then, uh, pretty soon it's going to be getting, well, we're teaching her other skills. So, um, so pretty soon she's going to become a, become your like real personal stylist, or I don't want to call it stylist, more of a consultant.

Okay, fantastic. Will she yell at you if you shop fast fashion?

Never, never. It's your choice. It's your choice. You are in control. You have all the power. But if you choose to shop fast fashion, or uber fast fashion, exactly, she will at least show you or help you to make that garment that you bought sustainable. Because if you already bought it, right, how do you make it sustainable? You need to wear it at least 30 times. You need to care for it and so on and so forth. So, so that's where the help comes.

You've worked at Yahoo Shopping, as I mentioned previously, Walmart Labs, View.ai, spaces where tech and retail collide. How did those experiences shape the way you built Open Wardrobe?

Well, I've, I've had a lot of experience building platforms and building customer experiences, so that helped me kind of— that 360 view helped me very much in building Open Wardrobe. Now, as with every startup, it's, it's very messy always, right? And first versions are usually, let's make it fast. Let's just prove the concept. And so we were taking our time to redoing a lot of things that we didn't do completely correctly. So that's, that's the difference between big companies and startups. Like in big companies, you're not all, not always, but sometimes you have time to really think through and test things. And here we just go, go, go.

Yeah.

Yeah. But definitely all this experience helped me and shaped Shift just my thinking in product management and especially digital experience.

Uh, closets. Let me just ask about this fashion meets AI factor. Closets aren't just functional. They're personal, emotional, and sometimes really messy like mine. How does Open Wardrobe help people build a healthier, more intentional relationship with their clothes?

That's such a great question. So we— clothes really, you know, the saying clothes makes the man, right? Or the woman. So it's, it's very, very true in how clothes makes us feel and how it helps us with expressing how we want to show up for whatever event, right? So we at Open Wardrobe, we have a couple of tools that help people, men and women. We have slightly different versions for both, to understand a few things, few kind of essential things about themselves. And one is their style personality. And we're, we're, we're never just one personality. We always change, right? Because at home we are more natural, be comfortable. Outside we can express our creativity or our, our drama or our whatever that is, right?

Exactly.

So, so we help you kind of understand how each of your personalities show up and just tell you which brands, when you do want to shop, which brands match your personality.

Ooh, that's interesting.

So the second tool is, um, all about your body shape, right? So just helping you understand for your shape, what silhouettes work better, what silhouettes maybe work not as well, and how to style things in a way that makes you feel beautiful, sexy, whatever you want to feel. And again, you have, you have the power. If you want to accentuate your shoulders, even if they already wide and you want them even wider, there you go. You know, my shoulder pads, I didn't before. Yeah, but now I do. Shoulder pads are— I don't know your body shape, but shoulder pads are amazing. For women with triangle body shapes or pear body shapes, right? Because you want that volume up here anyways. So we, we are teaching you, we're teaching you all of that kind of theory behind styling. Okay. And the third piece is colors. Okay. So which colors suit you best and how to style it so that you feel fresh or you look fresh and you, and what it does, what, what that does, it basically gives you the why. And when people understand the why, they stop stressing. And I noticed it about myself because I used to like, why does this look so great on my friend or on that model? And when I put it on, it just looks horrendous. But now I understand why. And it just helps me be in calm and make, make better choices. Now we have also, again, another tool that we built. It's a browser extension. It's a Chrome browser extension. So when, if you shop somewhere or if even if you are on Pinterest, You can access your closet and Lolla.AI from any, any website. And basically what it does, let's say you're looking at a sweater that you want to purchase. Mm-hmm. And you're thinking about it, should I, should I not? And you can immediately say, hey, Lolla.AI, show me how I would wear it with what I already own. And it's right there on that website in the browser extension. It, it can start spitting out outfits for you and then you can make a better decision. Okay, so this I will wear many different times, many for many different occasions. Yes, I can bring that into my closet. And again, and it will give you advice like, okay, does the color good for me? Yes. Does the shape good for me? Yes. Or maybe no. Or, or it could say a maybe, and here's how you style it for it to be a yes. So again, just basically basic tools that help you make better decisions.

Okay. So educating the consumer, having them grow their style level, it sounds like, which is incredible. Right? Because everybody's not born with a sense of style and knowing how to coordinate things so easily and quickly. So very interesting. Wow. Love that. And then at the same time, you're compiling data and you're helping them be more sustainable because you can guide them in a direction to reuse what they already have.

Exactly.

Loving that. Loving it. All right. So you've described Open Wardrobe as turning closets into climate solutions. What does that look like in practice?

Okay. So what it looks like is, is this: we're giving you a power. We're giving you power to make decisions about what you already have. We are not telling you that this brand is sustainable, that brand is not sustainable. There are a ton of resources out there where that information is available. So we chose not to focus on the industry. We chose to focus on the consumer.

Got it.

And so what we do is we, we are helping you make the item sustainable by providing you ways to wear it. So we already mentioned for an item to be sustainable, it needs to be worn at least 30 times. So we're helping you do that. If the item needs a minor repair or alteration, you know, your body changed, you lost weight, you gained weight, you need to alter something, that, that service is available. Very easy, um, and free shipping there and back to get the item back.

Oh, that's great.

I actually, I have a cardigan which I bought years ago and I love it and it's made out of like a really very good quality wool, but it had panels on the, on the sleeves that over time peeled and, and were torn and I couldn't wear it. So I replaced, I sent it for a our installation service, they replaced the panels, looks amazing.

Okay.

And now I can probably get another 100, 200 wears out of it, if probably even more.

Love that.

And then the third one is when you're done with something, instead of throwing it out, we have integrations with resellers and you can resell it. Right now it's Poshmark, more are going to be coming soon. And we're going to be adding more services, right? We're going to be adding more things so that you— the whole point is to keep that garment out of the landfill for as long as possible.

Fantastic. You're speaking my language. Greenwashing is everywhere. How do you make sure Open Wardrobe stays authentic and avoids falling into that trap?

Yeah, so we— the greenwashing is— I mean, brands, a lot of brands are guilty of that. We, we don't produce clothes, right? So we, we give you tools. That's, that's, that's what it is. So as I mentioned, we don't focus on the industry. We focus on empowering the consumer to make better choices. And eventually, eventual goal is because as consumers, we have so much power. I think we can give better signals to the industry so that they stop. They cannot stop, but probably they can reduce overproduction.

Right.

Because we have so much clothes already, right? Like right now, I think already produced, I read statistics somewhere, we have enough clothes to clothe the next 6 generations.

Exactly. So we need to stop producing.

We need to, we need to at least, you know, reduce the production or produce things that people will buy because 30% of clothing that's been produced is never sold.

Exactly.

So, um, so this is what we do. So we, we, we, uh, so eventually the industry will get the signals, but currently right now as consumers, we can send better signals. How do we send better signals is buying what we actually need and what we actually love, not returning as much, hopefully, if it fits right, and actually using what we have for as long as we possibly can. So. So yes, that's what we're up to.

Wonderful. I love the customer-facing. I love that you're teaching, educating, helping the consumer because I feel like, you know, I'm industry, you're industry. I feel like we create these, I guess, ways for consumers to kind of fall into the trap of negatively impacting the environment when we're giving them the thing to, you know, maybe do the wrong with. So I love that your app has an aspect that really can help the consumer save the goods from going into landfill, use what they already have. I mean, it's so important. I mean, there's, there's a huge recipe to what we can do. There are many ingredients to how, you know, we can create a fix to our issues of overproduction, but this is certainly one of them. I'm so excited about this. Technology certainly has a place. In cleaning up, you know, our issues in terms of supply chain and post-consumer and all of that. So this is great. I love the position you're in with this particular business model and idea.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for bringing it, bringing it to us and creating it. This is amazing. As we mentioned, you did introduce features like cost per wear tracking on the platform, which I am consumed with. I'm always one who will cost and try to figure out how much and if it makes sense. So you have the cost-per-wear tracking, you have resale and alteration services or partnerships with companies that offer those services. What's the most surprising story that you've heard from a user about how these features changed their perspective?

Yeah, I, we, we We have so many testimonials and people email, and some emails I actually tear up when I, when I read it because, you know, it's a tool. It's a, it's, it's, it's nothing special in terms of, yes, we're helping, but I never thought that some people would be affected so profoundly by this. So one user said that we helped cure her shopping addiction. Another said that we helped with her ADHD because She was so stressed every morning, like that just kind of exacerbated her symptoms. And she said, now I'm pre-planning everything. It's all organized. It's all, you know, um, another user said that she used to have a huge closet and always felt like there was nothing to wear. And then she moved and with the help of Open Wardrobe, her closet is smaller and much more streamlined. And she can go for a year without repeating an outfit.

Wow. Major.

We have, so for me personally, for me personally, and this is just kind of a, you know, the account of somebody who lived all of this and built it. And I didn't know what impact it would have. I used to buy so much clothes, like almost something every week. Right. And now with this, I don't because I have so many things that I actually like. It's now well curated. It's still a mess in my physical closet. I need to get that under control, but it's well curated and I'm, um, I'm, I don't need anything, right? It's like I, I have stuff for pretty much any occasion that I can think of. So, so that. And by the way, because I'm not buying, it's a lot of money saved, right? For me.

That's never a problem.

Which I can invest in building the tool, which is much, much better spent for me. Um, so yeah, it's, it's very, very interesting how people have. And then, um, so most of the testimonials are actually from women, but guys, um, a few guys have emailed and one person said, I'm a very simple person in terms of how I would get dressed. It's like very simple outfits, but I never could figure out how to put things together. And now I get so many compliments that it's like still a very simple outfit, still his personality, it's still him, still his clothes, but he feels like now he's got it.

That's fantastic. I'm gonna try the app. We already— we tried to sign up for it, so I'm gonna keep you posted. I'm gonna I now have to get images of my pieces. So I'll keep you posted because I'm going to try it out and see how it helps me redefine my looks.

Yeah, please, please help me post. Yeah, please keep me posted because I love getting feedback from people and helping them improve it. Try our style blueprint. I'm actually curious what you would think about that.

Okay. Because I'm not, I'm not shopping. I'm wanting to figure out this whole, you know, how to make cleaner, greener decisions about my wardrobe. And I'm a person who is fashion crazy, you know, I love, I love wonderful items to wear and very avant-garde, interesting pieces. So I kind of curate my wardrobe purposefully and purposefully. So I'm going to incorporate your app into the mix.

And definitely let me know what you think. By the way, we do have— so it's a mobile app, but we also have it on the web. And some people prefer it because pictures are bigger. You can manipulate it. I'm just throwing it out there because everybody's different.

Fantastic. If we were sitting here 10 years from now, what do you hope fashion looks like? And what role do you want Open Wardrobe to have played in rewriting that story and sustainably?

So the biggest hope is that we, the fashion industry as a whole, stops overproduction, right? So that would be ideal scenario. I don't know if it will ever happen, but they produce what people actually want and people buy and people use. And, and obviously do it sustainably with their practices, right? But in terms of the consumer, so stopping overproduction is the big thing. And in terms of how Open Wardrobe can play a role, I'm, I'm hoping that through using our tools, consumers will start sending better signals to the industry because for, for apparel, um, especially it's very difficult to forecast demand. That's why overproduction happened, right?

Exactly.

Because we don't know what people will like and what we're calling trends. It's really kind of, is it really a trend that it's going to happen? It's not really going to, it's already happening. If it's a trend that's going to, it's already happening.

Exactly.

Right. So if there's an influencer talking about a particular style or particular color, that's already been produced.

Right.

Right. So we, we're, we're kind of pushing stuff on people instead of taking signals from people to understand what they want. Exactly. So this is what I'm hoping for. So I don't know if 10 years is short enough, but we'll see.

We'll see. I mean, maybe it can help with on-demand production, right? Where we're kind of producing what people are wanting. You're collecting. Quite a bit of data as to what your consumers are interested in, the types of styling they want and what they're wearing now and how they're putting those pieces that they have in their closets together. That's such valuable information. That sounds like it could surely help now with the future of what we're designing, what, what companies are designing and what brands are putting out there. I mean, this sounds like really valuable feedback that brands can use.

Yeah, absolutely. And even, even if they don't use our data, which by the way, we're not selling data to anyone, just to put it out there. We, we are not opposed to working with brands to consult them, but the data is very private.

Okay.

But what I wanted to say is that even through our, our behavior as consumers, we are sending signals, right? So if we're using tools that help us understand ourselves better and decide what to buy, what not to buy, because how do, if, if you think about how industry's planning, like they're looking at past purchases, the past sales, that's their main signal. So if, and, and what was bought, what was returned. So that's their main signal. So if we give them kind of better signals through our behavior, that's what I mean. Right. So that would be kind of much better situation for. For the industry.

Fantastic. Influencing the customer's behavior is really what is needed because of how we've been producing our products. All right. So let me wrap this up. What we do here on The Ethical Stitch is we usually select a Stitch Mob MVP of the week. So we celebrate people who are moving the needle. Quietly but powerfully. Giulia, do you have anyone you might be able to recommend as our MVP of the week who's doing something wonderful in terms of sustainability or just moving fashion forward?

So there, there are several companies that are doing very interesting things. So, um, there is a company called E.ON, E-O-N.

Okay.

And, uh, their founder and CEO, Natasha Frank, Um, they're out of New York. They came up with a super interesting idea. She, by the way, she started in, she, she says herself that she started in garbage. She started to kind of figuring out how to reduce the garbage. And then she ended up in, in apparel industry. But what they do is they create a digital passport for every garment that is being produced. Manufactured.

Okay.

So every single garment that's been manufactured, uh, gets like a digital passport and, uh, it's up to a brand to choose to make that happen. But what it does, it gives a consumer transparency into the full supply chain. What were the raw materials, where it was produced, how it was produced sustainably, not sustainably. So because of the laws that were passed in Europe, in the last couple of years. They do work with many European companies, European brands. So check them out.

I will.

It's EON. I think their website is EON.

Thank you for sharing. Amazing. Again, I love customer-facing because I feel like we're leaving them out of this equation when we think about climate correction and the impacts and shifting our whole business models to cleaner solutions. So I love the customer-facing aspect. All right. So here's your takeaway, everyone listening. Sustainability isn't just about fabric. It's about data. It's about using technology to help us make smarter, slower, and intentional choices. Because when you connect AI to your closet, you don't just save time, you save clothes, You save resources, you save the planet. So Julia, tell us where listeners can connect with you and dive into Open Wardrobe.

Yeah, just go to our website, www.openwardrobe.co. It's not.com, it's co. And you can sign up right there. You can contact us. You can read about what, what we have. Oh, by the way, I did mention that. So because Lola AI kind of became personified.

Okay.

We decided to create a little podcast called Conversations with Lola AI, and it's very sarcastic. It's very, and it's Lola talking basically.

Okay.

It's AI generated. Oh, right. But this is just for fun. Nothing, it's just for fun. So it's linked off of our website as well. Yeah, just feel free to email me through our contact page. I read every single email that comes through.

Um, so yeah. All right, everyone, go to Open Wardrobe and check it out. So here's what I want you to take away from today. Fashion doesn't change because the industry tells us to. It changes when we have the tools to change it ourselves. And Open Wardrobe is certainly proof that AI isn't just for Silicon Valley. Or science fiction. It's here, it's real, and it can help us reprogram fashion from the inside out. So don't just scroll past— download it, play with it, share it. Show yourself and your circle that the most sustainable closet isn't the one you shop for, it's the one you already own. Because the future of fashion isn't about more, it's about smarter, And it starts with us. So until next time, stay bold, stay grounded, and always stay stitched in.

Thanks for tuning into The Ethical Stitch. If you loved this episode, share it, rate it, and tag me @michelleallienofficial. The revolution in fashion starts with the awareness, and you're already a part of it. Until next time, keep it ethical.