#405: Justin Kan – Finding Peace After $970 Million Exit

Take your calendar, print out your calendar, and then everything that you did that gave you energy that last week, yeah, like circle in green. Everything that took away energy, circle in red. And then just do the things that are— try to make your calendar all things that are green and find other people to do the red things.

Justin, I love bringing on people to the show who have not only won in the external world, but also won in the internal world or are in the pursuit of winning in the internal world. And I find that the mix of both creates the most rich human that I love interacting with. So, I'm really grateful and honored that you are here today. So, thank you.

Oh, thanks for the kind words. Happy to be here.

When I was doing research for this, I found out that your biggest strength or what you considered your your own biggest strength was being a great catalyzer of people, bringing people together and getting people to execute on a vision or idea. When was the first moment you realized that about yourself?

That's a good question. I think the first time I really realized that, or one of the earliest times, I think I've been doing it since I was a kid, but one of the earliest times I remember That, like, doing something like this was, um, when I was in college, I had this idea of doing a men's calendar because— well, what— it was kind of a funny story, but I'm a senior year of college. I was sitting around our dining hall and one of my friends gave me a call. People didn't really text back then. I'm kind of old. So this is like 2004. People gave me— a friend gave me a call and he was like, I, uh, do you want to come to this party? I— my friend is having a party, like a calendar release party for this, like, it was like a, like a car and model calendar, right? So like there's, you know, it's like a, like a, what do they call it, like a hot rod calendar, like a Fast and the Furious or whatever. And so, um, he was like, I think there's gonna be a lot of girls there, it should be fun. And this is back where I'm from in Seattle. I'm like, I'm at college, I just went back to college, like this week, so fuck you, I can't come to this. I can't come. And so, 'cause I was going to school on the East Coast, so, you know, 3,000 miles away or whatever. And I was like, hung up the phone, I'm like, fuck, I wanna have my own calendar. So then I was like, I'll create my own men's calendar. It was kind of a joke at first. I was sitting around the dining hall with other people and they were like, you know, I was talking about it and I'm like, oh, we should make our own calendar. And we could just make our own men's calendar for this residential college I was in called Branford, which is a college at Yale. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna make the Men of Branford calendar for 2004. And then we, you know, I was just kind of talking about it and I convinced all these people who really didn't wanna do it. Like there were, you know, a lot of people who are, you know, now, I don't know, managers of hedge funds and— do real serious stuff. Like, they, you know, when, um, you know, um, they'll run for political office and stuff, I'm sure. But like, a bunch of like people who were like, you know, on the track to be successful, like, took their shirts off for this men's calendar, um, that I was producing now. And I raised some funds for the school to print it. And, um, you know, to— in order to get people to agree to be in it, you know, I was kind of like also directing this, like artistic directing it. So I was like, I had one friend, I'm like, okay, you gotta lie on this pool table and cover yourself in rose petals. And he was like, I'm not gonna do that. Um, and I told him, you know, like, don't worry, whatever you— I ask you to do, I'm gonna do something way, you know, more embarrassing. And so eventually I took a shot for myself and I, I did it with like whipped cream bikini in the kitchen. And so, you know, I've always been somebody who's, you know, had a lot of ideas and gotten people really excited about ideas and kind of done whatever it takes to get people to do it, you know? And so that's kind of like one of the first times I remember just really catalyzing people around something.

Were you July in the calendar?

I wanted to be July, but I was not. I was, I think, because we didn't— I didn't want to put 2 Asians next to each other. So it was like the way it was working. You know, I was trying to get balance out the different ethnic diversity. And so, um, my other friend who was Asian ended up being June. So, um, he was, he was like, had a, was like a surfboard in his picture and stuff. And so, um, we had to balance it out. I can't remember what month I ended up going with. It was also, we had too many people, so it turned out to be 15 months instead of 12 months, just so we could cram in all these, um, all these guys.

So in that moment, you realized about yourself, like, wow, like, I'm doing something unusual in this moment, or I'm doing— Well,

I didn't— in the moment, I was like, okay, I'm having fun. We're gonna make something fun. It's gonna be an experience. We curated— we did like a charity auction where we raised money for Save the Children at the end of it, where we did like a date auction, uh, for all these guys. And, um, you know, we were just— I was just like, let's have fun with it. My life is— I'm always trying to, you know, when I'm— I love new ideas and I love exploring and having fun with whatever I'm doing, you know. So for me, it was just an opportunity to do something new and engaging. And, um, then later on, I think I probably realized that it's like, oh, this is the pattern for me, is that I'm really good at catalyzing people to do things. Could be something valuable like build a company. It could be something ridiculous like make this men's calendar. But That's kind of one of my— that's probably my number one superpower, as you called out.

Who do you look up to as somebody who is really good at that skill?

Elon, for sure, right? Elon's my— you know, every— I think— well, I mean, people— now he's more of a divisive character online, but I think that, you know, a lot of entrepreneurs respect that he just has a vision for the world and kind of takes it from first principles and gathers a team of amazing, intelligent, creative people and engineers and just like says, well, this is how it's going to be. We're going to— here's what we're going to make. And people are very inspired by that vision.

Yeah, it is remarkable what he's done. And it's his book right now by Walter Isaacson sitting out there. So, I'm excited to check that out. Going back to college for you, you said that your college master said, If you will it, it is no dream. And that was impactful, and that stuck with you all those years, even though you remarked that you thought it might be a corny statement, but it still was impactful for you. Why, why did that stick?

It just had— I mean, that's the kind of inspirational, like, you can just make the world however you want, you know. I think most people are consumers of life, and most, most people in most places and most times in their life are like they are consuming. They're kind of doing what society or your boss or the, you know, kind of companies tell you you should be doing, um, tell you what you should be doing, and they kind of just do that, right? Like whether it's, uh, you know, you're consuming somebody's restaurant or you're consuming at work, you're like doing— showing up to do a job that someone else has kind of defined and dictated the parameters of. And, um, I think, you know, human beings have the ability to think outside the box. There were no boxes originally, and just like figure things out and design things and life the way that they want it to be, you know, for them, for themselves. Like, everything that exists in society was designed by some person, right? Like, from all the foods you eat to the house you live in, to like the way traffic lights work, to cars. planes and like all things on the internet, every website, like all that was designed by somebody who just made it up. Maybe they used, you know, best practices and like of what came before and were inspired by things that came before. But like everything that we live in, the world we live in was created by human beings. And so I think oftentimes we get in there, our default mode is in the consumer mode, not the creative mode. And I think it's very inspirational to like snap back into the creative mode.

I think there's a lot of people who inherently understand that, but I think one of the most painful things is when you get it, when you understand that you can create your own reality, but you're not living that in that moment. What advice do you have for people who understand the concept of like, yeah, everything I see was created by someone, but I can't compel myself to act to create a new reality for myself in this moment?

Well, I mean, there's 2 elements of creating a new reality for yourself. One is having motivation and the other is having the skills to do it, right? Or the means to do it. And so, you know, there's probably remedies to, if you lack those things, then there are remedies to that. If you lack the motivation, the number one thing that I've found is like, there's this often quoted saying in Silicon Valley that you're the average of your 5 closest friends, right? I think when you hang out with people who are creative or entrepreneurs or designers or people who design the world in some way, you become more like them. You know, one example is my brother, my younger brother, one of my younger brothers, Dan. He like never wanted to start a company. He just ended up coming to Silicon Valley because that was the only job he could get back in 2009 after the GFC. And, you know, he had no, really no interest in starting companies like when he got here. Later on, he did. We did start a company together because that was just the thing that all his friends were doing, you know. And then later, even later still, he started Cruise, the self-driving car company. And so, you know, for somebody who never aspired to start a company, that's a pretty phenomenal success. And really, it's just because he put himself in the environment and the position where he was like around people who were doing it. And so, if you lack the motivation to make your design your environment, then like be around people who. whom that's like the cultural norm, you know. Then the second thing is, if you don't have the skills, you know, either you can learn them. And now on the internet, there's like such a huge trove of knowledge and tutorials and teachings and YouTube and ways to like learn any skill, you know. Um, like for example, I've been learning to DJ in the last couple years, and there's just so much— like, I don't know when teaching me. There's no— I mean, I think you can go to get classes and stuff for that, but it really is just, you know, you're messing around and then you look online and watch people do this on like online classes, or, you know, most are like watching people on Instagram or whatever, you know, just learning things from, from online. And then, you know, the other thing is if you don't have the skills— what I'm really good at particularly is like, I'm not— there's certain things I'm pretty good at, like maybe business strategy and mentorship and stuff like that. And maybe some, you know, I used to be a decent programmer, but mostly what I'm good at is convincing people who are better than me at things to do them. And so, you know, I think there's, you can, being a catalyzer of other people's energy and effort is also a very valuable component of a successful project.

Well, there's a tremendous skill to doing that. How do you go about—

That's probably true.

How do you go about convincing people who are better than you at some things to actually do what you want them to do?

You have to paint a vision of the world that is compelling to people, and you don't need to necessarily know the entire path of how you get from A to B to paint the vision for them. You know, a lot of times it is how much belief you exhibit about how the world could be or how greatest story about what you— how you explain, like, why the, the world being a certain way is going to be a tremendous benefit and a, like, a beautiful vision for this person, um, and how— where they're— what their part in it is going to be and how they're going to feel when they're part of it and when they've seen their work come to life. And when I was young, when I was 23 years old, I had no real skills or real understanding of how the world worked, um, And so, you know, a lot of people took a belief, like I took it on faith, but I had a lot of, I was very fervent and I had a lot of energy. And so, you know, you don't necessarily have to know the entire path of how to get to the destination in order to sell people that this destination is worth going to.

How different is the internet than you expected it to be?

Like today versus 20 years ago when I started working on it?

Yeah.

Um, I don't necessarily know what I expected. I think it is like a lot more all-encompassing in our lives than I probably ever anticipated, in that, you know, you have your phone. People are pretty addicted to their phones. I'm probably one of them, you know. Like, I'm, you know, you're looking and communicating and reading and learning from your phone or from computer like all day, every day, you know, except for times when I'm like really— I'm getting outside, I'm going to, you know, do something outside. Um, and I think that's true of like, you know, some people might hear that statement and be like shocked and aghast, but I think most people realize that that's true for most people most of the time. Um, so I think, I think it's just like so much more pervasive than I ever thought. Maybe that's the That's one thing. I also think people take it like way more seriously than I ever thought they would. Like, you know, people are affected by the things that people say. You know, people who grew up in the internet maybe like 20 years ago were like used to people just being foul and horrible and sometimes, and like not taking it too seriously. You know, I remember there was a lot of like people trolling each other on IRC chat rooms and stuff, you know? I kind of all grew up in these like early MMOs and IRC where I just like thought that most people on the internet were probably lying to me at all times. And it was like very— I think the early internet was like somewhat collaborative but also somewhat very adversarial. Hmm. And I think now people are kind of like, you know, when someone's bull— you feel like a lot of people like feel like they get bullied on the internet or things, you know, and it's like They take it like real seriously or whatever, you know, which I mean, I understand, but like to me that's maybe different than I expected.

Yeah, it's hard and confusing to figure out how much is trolling, how much is real, how much— like you're looking at a screen and it's like, what percentage of that screen is actually true? It's like even looking at a photo, you're like, is that photo real? Which is Before AI, 5, 10 years ago, you're like, well, now there's filters. So it's like, is, is what I'm even looking at reality? And I think that it is so close to reality that it confuses us sometimes into— do you have a thought on that?

Yeah, I mean, I think the internet is kind of like a giant tabloid, you know, like in some ways. And I mean, you don't even need AI to confuse and trick people. Like, so like with this Hawaii wildfires and saying it's like an alien attack. You know, there were these photos that people showed of like what looked like beams of light coming down into like a fire or explosion or whatever. And it turns out that was like a— that was a disaster from a different place. It was like from Michigan or something. Like there were photos from like different times and different places, you know, that, that were actual photos that were not Photoshop photos. And so, you know, it's just like people are very easily confused by things. You know, you don't even have to Photoshop a photo or create an AI photo. You can just, you know, take a photo from somewhere else and be like, this is from here, and, you know, make it viral.

And I think that's actually part of the reason why meditation has risen so strongly, is because if you cannot control— or the external world that you're looking at is so hard to parse through, or you don't know if it's true, or it's a giant tabloid that you're living in, basically, you got to go back inward to what is reality that's going on in your emotional state. Because your emotions or what you're feeling in any given moment might not necessarily be quote unquote true, but you know that that is an anchor to give yourself.

So I think meditation is a, you know, on the rise for many reasons, but like our society today has a lot of triggers in it, you know. And what I mean by that is like, you know, like looking at the internet on Twitter or whatever, or Instagram, you're seeing a lot of things that are emotional triggers. Not necessarily like negative ones, but sometimes negative ones, but also positive ones. You're like, you're getting pulled along in all these different directions, you know, getting swept along to be like, oh, I wish I was on this Italian vacation that my friend posted on Instagram. Or I see— they read this article about, you know, whatever political party you're not part of and being— you get super pissed about it. And then, you know, you're, you're kind of being swept along by life. And meditation is really about, you know, experiencing the things that happen in your life and not getting swept along by them, right? Mm-hmm. You can kind of see that— see them. The way I think about it is, um, you know, common metaphor. I, I didn't make this up. It's like, yeah, you're in most of life, you're in the the river and you're getting carried along. And like, the, the river is like the things that you experience, the, you know, physiological phenomenon, the experiences and the, the thoughts and feelings that you experience, usually getting swept along by it. And meditation is a tool to help you sit on the banks of the river and still experience those things, but they, they kind of just float by, you know, you're not pulled along by them. So I think meditation for people is, you know, helps them you know, experience all these triggers of life without having necessarily flying off the handle every time or getting swept along.

So if I get this correct, from doing research, I found out that you, you were meditating for some time, but then you did ayahuasca and then you started meditating a lot more seriously. Is that correct?

Uh, yeah, I guess that's, that's probably right. Yeah. I wasn't that long meditating that long before I did ayahuasca, but doing ayahuasca definitely helped me meditate, be more interested in meditation and learning about what the benefits of meditation were in my daily life.

What was that experience like?

The ayahuasca experience?

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, it was pretty wild. Before I had, you know, I never really known anything about ayahuasca and I just heard about it. And, I'm somebody who likes to try new things, so I'm always You know, I'm always excited to try something new. And my friend— we weren't really that good friends at the time, like someone I met, that someone I knew, like an acquaintance I was hanging out with. It was maybe 5 and a half years ago. And they were like telling me about ayahuasca and doing it, their first time doing it. And I said like, oh, if you're ever going to do it again, I'd love to come. And so, a month later, he invited me to come to a retreat. And so, I ended up going with my wife. We ended up going just without really knowing very much about what to expect. And we end up going there, and my wife at the time had never even really knew anything about ayahuasca or had any desire to do it, so she just came along because she wanted to come hang out with me. And I was like, oh, you should just come, you know, not really knowing what the full impact of it was. And so we just show up at this house in California on the coast, and it's kind of like a scene from Silicon Valley, you know. I end up walking into the house and there's this, uh, guy who was wearing this Robinhood hoodie, like the stock trading app, you know. He's like a white guy, went to Stanford. It's like— And I'm I'm kind of like, he's the assistant shaman basically. And I'm like, is this real? Or like, is this Silicon Valley? Like, what are— what's going on? And so we go to the, um, you know, we're there and then everyone's talking about, oh, we're gonna do the ceremony. And we like don't understand any of the language around it. And, um, then William, who's the, um, uh, who's the shaman, comes out and he's like, hey, um, You know, we're gonna get started. He doesn't speak any English, only speaks Spanish. So it's like, we're gonna get started. So, um, you know, everyone sit in a circle and we sit down, kind of does this blessing, and then, you know, kind of one by one you go up and drink a cup of ayahuasca. He just like kind of eyeballs you and then hands you this cup. And so I drank it and I sat down, and then we just sit in silence in the dark for Maybe 45 minutes. I'm just sitting there like, I'm like, okay, what's gonna happen? It's not, you know, I didn't really— nothing doesn't feel like anything. And then, uh, starts, starts doing some chants, some icaros. Um, it's a traditional chance to bring out the ayahuasca. And still nothing. I'm just sitting here. I'm like, okay, I don't get it. And then at a certain point they ask like, if you want to come up for a second cup, you can come up. And then I just jump up and I sprint to the front of the room. I'm like, yes, uh, like, I don't feel anything. They ask me, how do you feel? And I'm like, I don't, you know, I don't feel anything. So he kind of eyeballs me, pours another cup, and then like a big one this time. I drink it and then I go and sit down. And then like 3 minutes later, I start coming up super hard. And I was like, well, that can't possibly be what I just drank. So I have made a huge mistake. Um, and, you know, that night was like crazy. It was the most, uh, insane, you know, kind of difficult, out-of-this-world experience that I'd ever had. Um, I like to say it was, it was kind of like 3 movies. The scenes from 3 movies were all chopped together, cut up and chopped together out of order. And so this first movie was It was like Tron. I'm like flying through space. It didn't matter whether my eyes were open or closed. I'm just trying to fly through this alien city. Everything's like lit up neon, and I'm just kind of like, what is happening? You know, I think it's like a city inhabited by bird people. And then the second movie was like Justin Therapy Hour. Like, there's like— people would appear from my life, and I'm like, my dad appeared. I'm just screaming like, why aren't you proud of me yet? Like, I didn't even know I had these feelings, you know. And I'm like screaming at him for like what feels like ages, and then he disappears, and then like the next person shows up, you know. My mom's there, and like it just kept going. And then the third was like that movie A Perfect Storm. It felt like I was on a life raft in the middle of the— in the middle of the ocean, like that, where those— while there was a hurricane happening. And I'm hanging on for dear life, and I'm holding this bucket they give And I'm throwing up in this bucket. It feels like my stomach, esophagus, mouth, and this bucket are like one organism designed to just pump liquid this way. And it's kind of like rocking back and forth, throwing up in this bucket, like, fuck, I'm gonna die. And so, you know, at a certain point, I'm, I'm kind of like screaming. I'm not kind of screaming, I'm actually screaming like, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck. And Matthew, who's this, um, Assistant, uh, curandero who comes over and, uh, from earlier. And he was like, you know, just, Justin, everybody's worried. You're making a lot of noise. How are you doing? And I'm, I'm like, I'm freaking out. I'm— I am not gonna make it. I was like, I don't think I can do this, man. I like how, you know— and he's like, you're a strong person. Take a deep breath and be calm. And I took this— One breath. It felt like the first breath I'd taken in 1,000 years. And I immediately went from the worst I'd ever felt in my life, hands down, to calm and centered. And I'll remember that moment forever because it, you know, it was such a high-impact moment. Um, but then, you know, after this, so like the whole ceremony took maybe 5 or 6 hours, and then there I, you know, I'm kind of like, they were like, we're gonna close the ceremony. I'm lying down in the fetal position, my arms through the wrong hole of my jacket, like super— I've sweated through everything. And I'm like, I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm like, just gonna lie here. And I lay down there for a couple more hours. And eventually my wife and I, she also had like a pretty tough one. We were like looking at each other like, we've gotta get the fuck— what, what just happened? We've gotta get the fuck outta here and drive back to San Francisco. It was like way too much. Um, but we ended up going to sleep and, and we kind of like, um, we're like, okay, we'll go to sleep and leave in the morning. And then when we get up, we feel a little better, you know, we eat something. People at lunch are like, oh, you know, you always have to do the second ceremony. Everyone's different. Sometimes it's really beautiful. And so we get convinced over the course of like this day to like stay again. And I remember the next night we're sitting down, same circle. I drink this medicine. This time it's coming up. You know, pretty quickly. And I'm like, wait, what the fuck? What did I do? Why did I do this? And then, you know, I knew I was in for another, like, eternity, what literally felt like eternity, you know? And so, you know, that one was, like, also tough, but the next morning felt really amazing. And that was, like, that was my experience. And, you know, the TL;DR from that is over the next 6 months, I realized that everything, every decision I've made in my adult life, you know, going back to that vision of my dad, it's like every decision I've made in my adult life I've made to get the approval of the people around me and external people, you know, people, um, you know, people I didn't even know. Like, I wanted this external validation, and that was my primary subconscious motivator throughout my whole life. And that's why I wanted to be an entrepreneur and, you know, be famous on social media and, you know, successful and rich. And while I had— that had done a lot for me, I realized like I could love that part of myself because it was this, you know, it was adaptive. It was something I learned that was serving me, um, you know, and also maybe wasn't serving me anymore. And, um, maybe it was time to do something, live life a different way. I could choose not to be— have that be the primary motivator behind my decisions. And that was like a very powerful realization for my life that made me focus much more on, you know, kind of the way you started this conversation. It's like, what are my intrinsic motivators? You know, what are the things that I want to do for me, um, for myself? Or how do I want to show up in the world for myself? And, um, I would say that was like a very powerful change for my life.

Wow, thank you for sharing. What are the ways in which someone could get to that place without going with ayahuasca? Is there any way to uncover the roots of your actions and your own, the things that are shaping you? How do you get to that place without ayahuasca? Is that possible?

I think there are lots of modalities to learn about yourself and get to the hidden truths about yourself or understand this. Traumas that you experienced that shaped you or the formational experiences that you had that have shaped you. You know, you don't have to do ayahuasca. I think there's a lot of other psychedelic-assisted therapies, you know, ketamine therapy and psilocybin therapy. But if you don't wanna do any psychedelics at all, you know, I think people have success with things like other kinds of therapy, right? Like internal family systems is something I really think is pretty powerful. Or, you know, my mom had a lot of success with EMDR therapy. And, you know, there's just like a lot of different modalities of learning about yourself. I think meditation also is one, like doing like a long meditation retreat. People discover tremendous truths about themselves through that by just like being tapped into the subtle. You know, I think Reiki is also one. And, different energy work is often pretty powerful. So, I know my wife has had success learning about herself with Reiki. So, I think there's a lot of different ways to learn about yourself. I like ayahuasca because it's kind of like it pretty much works most of the time. It's like Game Genie. You're going to learn about yourself. No matter what, you know. Um, and so for me, while it was very difficult, it was kind of like ripping the Band-Aid off all at once, you know. And that can be very traumatic in its own way, which I think is why some people have like very difficult or, or what they would characterize as bad experiences with ayahuasca. I think it's, you know, very powerful.

What What did you practically change about your life after doing it?

Well, you know, a lot of people think about— they probably look at what I'm doing and they're like, oh well, you know, what have you changed? You're doing the same thing. You're investing in startups, you're starting startups, you know, you make social media, you post on YouTube. Like, what did you really change about your life? And, you know, for me, it's really subtle. It's like my motivations are what's changed and what I You know, I really only think about inputs versus outputs now. So for me, it's like I think about like before I would do all these things because I wanted to be more successful or more famous or whatever. And there were aspects of the stuff that I liked, you know, I always liked, which is like learning about new spaces, mentoring other people, the creative components of like entrepreneurship, like thinking about new ideas, think about problem, how to solve different problems that people experience. But my main motivators are probably extrinsic, and they've shifted to be like, I'm doing all the same things because I like them in some ways, but I do them in an intrinsic way because of intrinsic motivations. So for me, those motivations are I want to have the opportunity to do storytelling because I love to tell stories. That's why I'm on this podcast. We don't know each other. I just— I'm like, oh well, it's an audience, and I like telling stories, so it'll be fun for me. And, uh, I like to mentor others and have the satisfaction of mentoring other people. I love learning about new industries and new ideas. And so, um, those are the reasons that I do the things I do, whether it's like, you know, which coincidentally look like mostly the same things that I was doing before, but I'm just doing them from, from an intrinsically motivated And the way I think about it is like, I think about inputs and not outputs now. So it's like, if my inputs are like, I'm doing things I love for the most part, I'm doing them with people that I like to see and be around, and I'm having fun, then that's all that matters. And downstream from that, maybe these companies will be successful, maybe not. Maybe this YouTube video I make will— people will like it, maybe not. It doesn't really matter. Like, if the way I think about it is if I— if For any of these companies that I'm starting right now, if it like failed tomorrow, will I feel like I wasted my time? And for me, the answer is no. And if that's true, then it's like, it's all good. Whatever happens after that, after, you know, my energy goes into it is, you know, it is what it is. But I'm just like a lot happier living life this way, you know?

Yeah.

And I think the other change, big change, is really focusing on relationships. You know, one of the reasons that I always did what I used to do, you know, wanting to be an entrepreneur, etc., was because I wanted to feel connected to people. It's something that from my childhood that I didn't— I guess I didn't feel as connected to others around me as I would have liked. And my subconscious was like, okay, if you become successful, people will want to connect with you, right? And what I, um, realized is like I can just connect with people because I can be genuinely curious and interested and a good friend with other people. And if I just do those things, it doesn't really matter, like, you know, who I am, you know, and it's just how I show up in the world. So I started focusing more on that way of showing up. And, you know, I feel like I kind of have— it helped me build a community around me that

So, speaking about that piece about relationships and friendships, how did people change or treat you differently, if at all, after selling your company for $970 million?

Well, people, you know, and this is human nature, I'm not saying this in a negative way actually, but people, when you're successful or you're famous, there's just a lot more people who want something from you. you. Yeah. All the time, right? So, and it's not necessarily bad. I think I don't blame people for that. Like, when I was younger, um, or even today probably, like, there's people out there who have something that I want. And so of course I want to— like, that's a reason to get to know them and wanting to be in their life in some way, right? Or, um, so people want— for me, they're like, okay, I I want Justin to invest in my company. I want him to mentor me. I want, you know, whatever. Those are mainly— those are the main things, right?

Yeah.

And so I don't really mind that, you know, but you have to understand that that's like a motivator for people's relationships. Like, I don't mind it. I don't have the capacity to like do that for every person or have that kind of relationship for every person who wants it. But, you know, there's plenty of people for whom That is their primary motivator to get to know me. And I have created a fulfilling relationship with them where I get to be a mentor and they get something, you know, they get mentorship or they get advice or money or guidance or whatever. And that has been fruitful for both of us, you know? So I don't think it's like a lot of times people get caught up in the negative of like, oh, everybody wants something from me now, like that I'm famous or whatever. But, you know, it's not necessarily negative. Some— I've had very fulfilling relationships that were born from a You know, something that started as like a transactional relationship, you know?

Yeah. That's not a take I think most people have heard before, or at least live with or think about the possibility of. So I appreciate that. What, what about meeting your wife? How'd you meet your wife and how'd that—

So we met in college.

So way before any— Yeah.

It's like, uh, this is calendar day one. Yeah, no, she saw the calendar and then it was game over.

The whipped cream, that got her.

No, I think she was into it, into me despite that, not because of it. So

how would you suggest young people today think about finding a significant other?

I think you have to really, you know, it's, it's, it's interesting. You, um, someone asked me that once. Kind of randomly, an employee of mine asked me, like, I was like, how do you seem like you're good at relationships? How did you meet? You know, how do you find somebody? I'm like, well, you know, relationships are hard because you have these different filters. It's kind of like a funnel, right? You're— if you think about it like sales, it's like a funnel and you're, you know, going all the way down through different steps, right? And different filters. And the first filter is like, am I attracted to this person? It's like, am I even like texting them on Tinder or like, or Hinge or whatever, or I'm like going up to them in the bar? It's like, you probably have some sort of attraction. And then it's like, can I, do I wanna spend time with this person, right? And then it's like, does this person, is this person like fit into my friend groups and my social groups and get along with my family? And then it's like, do we have compatible life, you know, life goals and lives? And then it's like, Is this person, you know, gonna be a good partner with me to build a family? Um, and, you know, then, then it's kind of like, as I change and grow in my life, which everybody does throughout their life, do we remain compatible, right? And so there's like all these filters, and what makes someone get through the first one is like, has nothing to do with the second step, right? Like, if you're attracted to that person, has nothing to do with like their and you're, you know, they get along with your friends and family, which has really nothing to do with your good life partners. So it's like pretty hard to find someone, you know, put someone all the way through this funnel. And what I think is really important is, you know, a lot of people give up because, and I did in the past, like we broke up quite a number of times actually, but they get, people give up because things aren't perfect and they're always like looking, especially in today's world where everyone's like, you know, there's a million options on the internet. open an app on your phone, there's a lot of times it's easy to be like, oh, I'm gonna give up on this relationship. And because there's a— the grass is greener on the other side and it's not perfect. And I think the reality is like, from the vast majority of people that I know anyways that are in long-term relationships, nothing is perfect. Nobody's perfect out there. And really you have to invest to get, you know, to communicate, you know, communication. You have to invest You have to invest in strengthening the relationship. You have to invest in, you know, you have to be willing to compromise and to make something work to get someone all the way through those steps and maintain them at the bottom of the funnel, you know? And I think that's kind of reality. And, you know, most people don't want to do it, you know? Well, their relationship breaks in some way that they can't get back to it.

Okay, so, so nothing is, is perfect. No person obviously is going to be perfect.

I mean, there's like 1 in 1,000 I've heard of people being like, this was just the perfect person and we just fell into it and never had any problems, you know? Like, yeah, that's— I— people have said that, but I, I just think it's not the majority of cases by any means.

How do you figure out how much to compromise?

I think it's always a question of like, what am I You know, this is going to sound a little bit maybe transactional, but it's kind of like you're running the algorithm in the back of your head, whether you're doing it subconsciously or consciously. It's like, am I getting enough value for what I give up, right? Because every compromise is like you're giving something up, right? Like maybe you have different lifestyles, and so, you know, you're— you have to— you, you can't— in order to accommodate living like together, you you need to like do things differently. And so I think there's always a question of like, are you getting enough? Are you getting the value for what you're giving up? And that doesn't mean like the second you fall out of like feeling like you're winning the value equation, you should like look for something different. I think it's often like, can we move into a place? Can I accept this new value trade or can we move into a place where, you know, I feel like I'm getting you know, enough value again. And, um, I think relationships are often very accretive. So like, there are different— like, if you just talk to each other, you can figure out how to like, you know, give the different parties what they want, right? Oftentimes something that's like— it's, uh, something that's not difficult for one person to give up is actually highly valuable to another person, right? Like, for example, like learning to put the toilet seat down or something was really important to my wife. It wasn't And actually, you know, for me, it wasn't that hard of a cost to like learn to do that, right? And so, um, there's like, I think, a lot of unlocked value to be had in relationships when you just communicate your needs and then people like are willing to compromise a little bit to give their partner a lot of what they need.

That makes sense. What has surprised you most about being in a relationship that Or being in a marriage that you otherwise wouldn't have realized had you not been in the marriage?

Um, well, for me, I think that really revolves around having kids, you know, probably is the most surprising thing. Like, um, I, you know, I didn't just— never thought about what having kids would like be like until I had kids. And then, you know, having kids, it's really— well, a friend said to me that it rounds out the human experience, and I really believe that. It's like, I don't think the human experience is complete without having kids. And, and it's very— it's like hard to expl— you can explain it. It's like one of those things you just have to do. Like, you know, like ayahuasca or something. Someone could explain it to you, but you're just like, okay, I don't really know what that guy's talking about. Like, having kids is like, um, you know, seeing the entire, uh, growth of a human person like in this really incredible way where you feel like a sense of ownership. It's maybe like kind of like a weird word to use, but like you, you know, are responsible. And it's really what's been amazing for me most about having kids is like not just like how I feel, which is like, you know, a lot of sense of love and, you know, people talk about that, but, um, you know, the, the— it's like the human developmental The developmental process for a human. It's like you go— when you're born, like the second you're born, or maybe even before, you're just— you have no context for anything, right? You have no mental models. Like, you're like a blank slate. So you don't even know where your body ends and the world begins. You don't know how to interpret like light or different things that you see. You don't know how to, you know, what to— How to eat or anything really. Like, um, and you learn these mental models, you develop mental models, like immediately you start developing them, right? Like, um, these concepts of like how to cry and then get food and, um, you know, object permanence and object recognition. And you start rec— and where your body is, like what your hands are. You start— these are all mental models on top of like sensory phenomena. Right, like on top of like your raw sense data. And then you develop more complex mental models. You learn to speak, and then you learn like what stories are and like what people, you know, objects and people and like how like physics works. And all these different things are mental models on top of their interpretations of your experience. And, um, you build all these things, and then in there is like some of the trauma you experience as a kid, you know, and then and, you know, which is formative for you. And you really are living eventually as a young adult, maybe you're like really living in the world, like you're living in this world of mental models that you've created. And I like, you know, you have all these things you're caught up with and swept along by in life that are really just like you, your invented interpretation of it, right? Like whether you're popular or not popular, whether you have a lot of followers on Instagram, whether you have like you're prepared for college or life or whatever. All these things are like made up, right? And then the spiritual process eventually is like breaking down those mental models and seeing the truth of reality, which is that none of this stuff is real anyways. It's like all kind of heuristics that we've created in order to exist. And you have to create those, those heuristics and models in order to exist in the world. Otherwise you'll like starve to death because you'll never eat food when you're hungry, you know. You like it. So it's, it's part of the human experience to go from like, to do this, like the build-up, and then eventually if you're lucky and you're, you know, kind of on the path of self-actualization and, and awakening, you are breaking down these models, um, until you see the truth of reality again. And so, you know, I, I think having a kid for me, like observing this process in someone else, because when you're As an adult, you forgot that you went through this experience when you were a kid. So having a kid is like really powerful, has been a powerful experience to see like the, the arc of the human experience.

I think you just summed up all of life in about 5 minutes. I think it's remarkable. Thank you. Um, one of my friends who recently had a child, he said he's a pretty spiritual guy. And he said to me that a child, a young baby is basically going from everything that there is to one body in one form. And that's why they're like all over the place. That's why they're understanding their body and mind. And I thought that was just an interesting idea or concept that imagine that baby is everything. there ever is, and then they get put into this one body. And I don't know if that's accurate or not, but I just found that to be heartwarming, that idea. What do you think about that?

I think humans— the human experience is a temporary instantiation of consciousness that happens. It's like a bubble of, like, that rises up from the vast sea of consciousness and conscious energy, and it's a You're temporarily instantiated in this human experience. You have this life. It's like watching this beautiful movie, and then you die and go back into the source. And so in a way, that's— I think rhymes with what your friend thinks.

Have you had any experiences with that source?

Yeah. So I, you know, the other powerful experience that I— I think I had 3 Powerful, um, really informative, um, experiences in my life. Like some of the, you know, that one was ayahuasca, the second was watching my children be born, and the third was, um, trying, um, 5-MeO-DMT, which is a type of, um, you know, toad venom in the— found in the Sonoran Desert toad. I think it's Mike Tyson has talked about it on Rogan. You know, it's, um, super powerful, fast-acting psychedelic. And, uh, when you— when, for me, when I tried it, it was like that, you know, kind of seeing what was underneath the human experience and going back to the source. And then, you know, when I woke up, I was like, this is, this is the experience of dying. And when I die, I'm very sure that this is what

Wow.

Yeah.

So if I have this correct, you did DMT, ayahuasca, and then your children— witnessing the birth of your children was equivalent to those experiences in some way?

Yeah, yes. You know, seeing my kids be born was You know, you're like, wow, I am part of this cycle of life and created these lives. Um, that's like— it was, you know, I can't really explain why it was powerful, but just like knowing that you're part of that, um, chain of humanity and seeing how much of yourself is like embedded in this next generation is like, um, it's like an incredible experience.

Dude, I think more than anyone you— I've had on the podcast, you are the epitome of like just calm energy and just straight and narrow. Like, it feels like you don't get too high, it feels like you don't get too low. Is that an accurate assessment?

I get pretty high, I think. Um, I think I, I, you know, this is— I'm sitting down, we're talking, having a conversation, you know. But like, if you, um, you know, I think there's moments— I have like many moments of great joy. If you like to come and see, uh, Justin DJ set, then like I'm like living my peak, you know, high energy moments, you know. Like, I, um, so I do— I try to like— in fact, I love those moments. So for me, I'm curating them for myself quite often, but You know, I think in this context, I'm like, we're talking about things that have been really impactful in my life. I think I'm probably, you know, I have the calm energy. I do think I have like pretty calm energy. I write my gratitude journal every day. I'm calm.

Why is that important for you?

I think, you know, it was going back to that ayahuasca moment. Like, you know, I realized from that moment where Matthew was like, hey, if you're You know, you are a strong person, you know, breathe and be calm. I realized like I have this internal capacity to be calm no matter what's happening in the outside world. And I used to not be calm, you know, that often. I was like freaking out about the company not doing well, my whatever company I was working on, like not being successful enough, whatever. And so for me, having this calm, and people who met me then were like, knew I, They they they would say they have told said you know that I didn't have that energy. I had a lot of excited energy, which I think is you know as I've always had to like catalyze people like we kind of talked about. But I didn't have the calm energy, and now a lot of people know me for you know they who know me they know I have this you know there I'm a I have like a calm grounded energy and. I think it's important to me because it's like makes my life just like way much, much better.

How so?

Oh, I mean, it's tough when you're freaking out all the time or you're worried, you have high anxiety about like things are not going well, or, you know, you're swept along by the world, by life, you know. Now realizing like, you know, whatever happens happens. I control some of it, but I don't control all of it. Even down to like very simple things. And, you know, life is about experiencing one moment per moment, and you can't speed that up, you can't slow it down. You're just having this experience, and whatever comes, that's what's coming. And so you can accept it, you can fight against it, but whatever happens, whatever you do, it doesn't really make a difference. So, um, you know, having the acceptance for whatever comes and then Approaching it and accepting it in a calm way is like a much less thrashy way to live your life.

What are the other things you write down? You said, I'm calm, is one.

I am calm. I love and am loved. You know, I think love is a central part of life, and your life is much better when you're, when you're both giving and receiving love. And whatever happens today, I accept it. Those are my like 3 affirmations every day.

That's powerful. And the— how quickly did you see those things pop up into your life, or you embodying those things? And how quickly did it go from you writing them down to then you seeing them? In your day-to-day?

I don't know. It's hard to remember. Maybe like a month or two. I mean, I write the— I've been writing these down every day for years. So, you know, just every morning I wake up, I write these down. It's the same shit. Sometimes I write down an extra one, like, you know, I'll spend time with my family today. Like, I really want to, you know, or whatever, something I, you know, where I'm— I don't know. Those are the main ones, to be honest. I just write those same things over and over and over.

Yeah. The reason why I ask is because I feel like the reason why people don't start some of these things is because they're like, how long am I gonna be writing this? Or how long am I gonna be exercising before I should expect to see some result? And I've settled on something called like the 3-month rule, but I think a month is also accurate where it's like, it takes you a month for you to consistently do something until—

Yeah, it takes like 21 days to build a habit. Right. But I mean, some things you're not gonna see results for, for, you know, usually you'll see results on almost anything in a month though. Like any type of exercise, you can do that for a month or diet or, you know, affirmations or meditation or whatever. You're gonna see results within a month.

Yeah. You've said before, to feel better, just do 3 things: diet, exercise, and sleep.

Yeah.

Why are those the holy trinity?

I mean, those are the things that work for me, I would say, first and foremost. But I think that in the bell curve of humanity, that's like the average. I mean, sleep is like— they've done— there are a lot of studies out there. You don't have to take my word for it. It's like the number one correlate for happiness is like if you're sleeping the amount of sleep that your body needs. And so that's just one thing that I think is super important for mood. Exercise. Very well studied exercise also like very important for mood. For myself with diet, I just find like also it's highly correlated with mood. If I'm eating like a healthy diet, relatively healthy or low lower carb diet, for me I'm like very you know kind of hypoglycemic. It's like a very fast processor of carbs, like it spikes my blood sugar and then I feel pretty bad. I think it's true of like many people of Asian. descent. So like, for me, it's just like a very clear, you know, I was using like a continuous glucose blood monitor and you could just see it like immediately, you know, like if I eat a donut or something. So it's kind of, I'm not like perfect by any means at observing all these things, you know, but I have the knowledge that they highly affect my daily outcome. Yeah.

Yeah. You've also said the secret— you said, I started building a daily routine of self-care that included daily meditation, exercise, quitting drinking, changing my diet, and gratitude journaling. I now try to only work on things I'm intrinsically motivated to do, helping people around me, making content when I feel like making content, deepening my relationships with people, and I feel much, much happier than I've ever been. The other real secret to happiness that I found is meditation as a means to become okay with one's present moment circumstances, no matter what they are. As someone mentioned further down on a Reddit AMA, the human experience is varied. You will always have good and bad experiences in every day, week, year. Being willing to surrender to whatever is happening means you will always be okay.

It's beautiful. No, I'm very consistent. Very consistent. Yeah.

What was the last thing that made you upset?

Hmm. The last time I got very upset, which doesn't happen very rarely for me, one of my friends was on— we were on a trip, like a family trip with friends of mine. I turned 40 this year, so I kind of did a big trip for my birthday, and I planned this big event for people. And I— we were almost gonna— various circumstances were gonna cause us to miss the flight there. And it was like kind of a location that's hard to get to. And so I was just like kicking myself. I was super upset because I was gonna— felt like this massive FOMO. I spent a long time planning this thing, and, um, and I had— I could have just flown in. We could have flown in the day before. I just hadn't really— I wasn't on top of like thinking about what, you know, what would happen, you know, if I was— things were late or whatever. And so I was, I was just like in a very triggered state and kind of, um, spiraled, you know, like when you're— like, it was— it's interesting because like when you're, you know, if you're observing, if you're meditating, and you're— oftentimes when things happen that are difficult and you see them, um, happen, you either get triggered and swept along, and then you're— you can even know that you're getting swept along but not be able to resist it, right? Or you're like pulling yourself out and you're kind of like, oh, this is happening. I can feel the anger happening. I feel tension in my jaw or like, you know, tightness behind my eyes, whatever, however anger manifests for you. But I'm like kind of just observing it and that's happening over here and I'm over here, you know. My real self is over here somewhere different than that. But I could, you know, in this case I was like really— Kind of swept along and like, not— I was not able to pull myself out of it, you know, which is okay. That's part of the human experience too, you know.

Yeah. Well, it's interesting because I feel like you say you got swept along with that experience. What did— so you just got really upset. How did you take out that, that anger, that upsetness? Was it on other people, on yourself? Was it like you talking about to yourself? Like, how did that look for you?

I mean, it was probably the similar things that other people take out anger. It's like, I was like, what? Like this, you know, I don't like— I was like, I need to like never work with it. Like never fly this airline again. I'm never gonna like fuck this, you know, travel agency. This like that has created the situation. Or, you know, I was like, upset with the— his trying to— I was, um, in the mode of blaming the people who I felt like were responsible for my circumstances, you know, versus being like, oh, this is what's happening. Like, maybe there's some things to learn from it for next time. Like, I don't want to use these various vendors or whatever, but like, that doesn't help me in this moment, you know. I think people like blame is something that feels good, right? For people, you know, for human beings, it's like treating— it feels good to like blame other people for your circumstances or whatever. That's why people do it. Um, but it doesn't really, you know, it's kind of like a toxic behavior. Doesn't really help you.

What's the solve for it?

Meditation. More meditation. I think I like— I might— I consider myself a novice when it comes to meditation still. I think there's like more meditation to be Done. Yeah. For me.

Yeah.

And for most people, you know.

Oh, I'm sure you're familiar with Michael Singer.

Uh,

and

of course, amazing. His book is my favorite book.

Um, mine as well.

The Untethered Soul. Yeah.

The Surrender Experiment is my favorite because it's the practical of how he, how he applied the Untethered Soul, but both amazing. And, and he talked What was remarkable to me is how he meditates an hour in the morning, an hour in the evening. And it's like he's the expert. He's the guy who goes under a bridge and is like, I'm going to be enlightened. I'm not going to come out of here until I'm enlightened. And then has this amazing experience and then back to work. And the work being back to meditating every day, an hour in the morning, an hour in the evening. And it's like, if that's his response to that, then it's like— Yeah. What am I here doing not meditating? You know, it's like, so, I found him to be a really impactful source of inspiration and wisdom. What about you? What about on your journey to spiritual growth? Who have been some of the people who have inspired you?

I think he's one for sure. I love his books. I have a meditation teacher. Janusz, he's like got a website, deepmindfulness.io. He's like, I've learned a lot from him. So he's— what else? My— I took this class from Dan Brown, the late Dan Brown, a couple years ago where I learned a lot. Yeah, these are some, some of the few.

That's beautiful. I wrote those down. I'll check those out. I, I, when I was doing research for this, I, I stumbled across a YouTube video. I don't know if this is you, but it was Justin Kan's home being vandalized.

Oh yeah, the one, uh, that was years ago.

Yeah, August 2015.

Yeah. Someone spray painted my house.

Yeah. It's

not cool.

Not cool at all. And I was curious, you know, how that Justin handled that situation in 2015 versus how 2023 Justin would handle that situation today. Is there any difference?

Well, I, you know, I didn't really care that much. I think, yeah, they spray painted fuck you gook on my house. Which is weird. I think it was a random homeless guy in SF, but for me, I just thought it was kind of like a hilarious situation. Um, because like, so they— someone spray painted my house and I was like, posted on the internet. I was like, I don't remember rejecting this guy from Y Combinator. I was a partner at Y Combinator at the time. The funny thing is he was wearing a Dropbox hoodie, and, uh, I'm friends with, um, Drew, the founder of Dropbox, and I'm texting him, I'm like, yo, you should stop making merch. Uh, because they, they had this other issue, um, a couple like months earlier with like someone like in a Dropbox t-shirt kicking some kids off like a playground because they had reserved the playground. But it was like a bad look because you're kicking kids off the soccer field or whatever. And so they had— I was just like, I was, uh, I was kind of razzing them a bit. But, um, we had this, you know, after— I'm like, I don't— you know, it's a garage door, it doesn't really make a difference to me. I didn't really feel like violated. I think a lot of Asians were upset on my behalf though. There's one reporter I remember who was interviewing me and he was like, you know, do you feel like you've been, uh, like othered, I guess, in tech and discriminated against other Sometimes I'm, you know, I've never really felt that way in America, you know, um, or really in the world, I guess. Maybe that's very fortunate on my behalf, but, um, my part that, that I've never felt that way. But like, even, you know, I've had people yell, like, you know, I was driving slowly in LA once and someone was like, fuck you, Cenk, because like they zoomed around me. But like, I don't, you know, I don't really take it personally. Like, I don't really, I don't, you know, I've never— I've never really felt othered by other people's racist comments or statements before. So, you know, for this it was like, I was just like, oh, I'm like wondering how I pissed this guy off. It's kind of hilarious. And then this other guy, my neighbor, this is some like typical white liberal shit. My neighbor across the street painted over my, uh, The garage. Like, he like just went, took a bucket of his own paint, which was a different color, and painted over my— that the thing on my garage. Because he was like— and then he— I was like, caught him, I guess, caught him doing it. I'm like, what are you like— like— and he was like, I just can't stand to like look at this. And I'm like, dude, this is like— you didn't ask me. You don't— aren't using the actual paint color? Like, why are you— and it was just this yellow block on my green garage door, like olive green garage door. He just put like a yellow block over it. And I was kind of like, this is like a— I've been the victim of a hate crime, and then now I'm the victim of a help crime, you know? It's fucked up, man. Anyway, so—

That was in San Francisco as well?

Yeah, it was in SF.

Of course. That's funny.

I mean, it's like, you can't— I'm the gook. Like, you can't stand looking at this for like— I'm the one who's been violated and now you're painting my garage door. I mean, if it was he came over and asked, hey, can I paint this? Do you have the color? You know, that'd be one thing. Like, sure, here's— like, it was in my garage, like 3 feet behind the door. There was like the can of paint of the right color.

Very odd. I mean,

that's a weird thing to do, I think, you know?

Yeah.

Plus, what if that was evidence, you know? That's painted— he's trespassing on the crime scene.

Yeah, it's funny because, like, do you think something like that would have happened 20 years ago, 30 years ago? Like, both scenarios? I mean, maybe they would have, you know.

I think probably. I don't know why people have been guilty for a very long time.

Yeah, yeah, that's true, that's true. And it— but what I take from it is that like it doesn't get to you, like none of the, the hatred towards you. You're— you have a—

I don't get a lot of hatred. I'm, I'm universally beloved by, uh, by people on the internet. No, people like, um, everyone who reads my YouTube comments are like, wow, you like get, you know, Or I get a surprisingly little amount of hate. People, people like me because I'm authentic, you know. Um, so I don't get a lot of hate, but you're right, it doesn't really bother me. I mean, hate from people I don't know really doesn't bother me because it's like, how can they make a judgment on you? They don't know you, you know. Like, this guy doesn't know me. He was like— The person actually didn't know me. It wasn't someone who like I actually pissed off. It was like some random guy who was like You know, had a mental disability who was homeless. So like, how can I be mad at that guy? He's like a homeless guy, like, who I don't even know. So, you know, I don't care. But then like hate from people, even people I do know, which I don't really get a lot of because I, like I said, I'm pretty beloved. I like, I don't know, it's like that's more reflective of them, you know, than me. Doesn't have anything to do with me really.

100%. What did you learn from Paul Graham?

I learned a lot. You know, Paul, who's a, you know, creator, the founder of Y Combinator, was our first investor for our companies. And, you know, I learned a lot. I learned, I mean, a couple things. One was like, um, talk to your— you know, just the process of starting a startup is talking to your customers. You have to go and talk to your customers and learn what they want. Like, just There's nothing except for talking to your customers. That's like the main thing you do. Talk to your customers, form a hypothesis, build something to test that hypothesis, and then put it, roll it out to your customers and see and talk to them again. That's it. If you just do that enough times, you're going to have a successful company. It sounds so simple, but it's true. And then the other thing was deals fall through. Like you can't count on, like if someone's trying to buy your company or whatever, you You can count on it. Like, you just expect all these deals to fall through, whether it's investment or, um, someone investing in your company, buying it, whatever, you know.

Yeah, I, I can imagine. You know, you spent so much time with so many people who are externally successful. What have you found in the ones who are externally successful but also internally successful as well? What are the commonalities between those people?

Um, you know, I think it's the same thing. It's like people who find intrinsic motivation for what they're doing in the outside world, and they're mostly concerned with like— they're mostly— You know, so they're doing something they love. They like end up, you know, focusing on something they love, and they're mostly doing it for themselves, and versus like because they are trying to get to some goal. Most of the people who are doing it because they want to get to a certain goal over time, like, they end up burning out and eventually, like, leaving, even if it's after they've created, like, a multi-billion dollar company or whatever.

Yeah. And in order to help find that thing that you could do forever, your infinite game, your advice here is, I think, really good, which is, what are you afraid of? Everything you want is on the other side of fear. What are you afraid will happen if you are to leave the thing that you're doing now? Are those fears real? And I think it's so, so true, man. And I think that, you know, before I started this podcast, it was literally just like a microphone would look at me. Literally, this microphone would just be on my desk for years, and I'd look at it and be like, damn it, you know? And I didn't have that ability to look at myself and be like, yeah, that is what I want to do with my life.

So— No, great. I'm glad you found that.

Yeah.

That's awesome.

How do you find— like, you were doing your startup and startup for so long. But then, it's interesting because you were doing the things that you were supposed to do, that you were called to do, but is the lens that you looked at it was differently?

Yeah, I think there's like subtle variations that have made it, or like subtle modifications that make it much more fun for me, which is like, you know, I realized like there's many roles in a startup, right? It's not just starting a startup, but there's like the person who builds the product, there's a person who manages the engineering team, there's a person who does the sales, there's a person who raises the money. There's, you know, those are all parts of starting a company. For me, like, there's certain parts that I really like. I like all the storytelling components. elements, right? Like, I love recruiting employees. I love selling the comp— the services or product or whatever, doing sales basically. I love raising money. I love talking to journalists about the product. I love all the things that are like how to tell a story, right? Um, because that's, you know, that's what I'm good at. And, uh, it's kind of like a natural thing I like to do. So, you know, when I'm the person who's responsible for building a product, I'm like, much less happy than when I'm the person responsible for like selling the product. And so for me, it's like knowing what I'm good at and what I like to do and then partnering with other people who want to do the parts I don't want to do and being like, I'm not going to be responsible for those parts. That, that's a fulfilling way to go about it for me.

How do you build the confidence in yourself or the knowing in yourself to do that?

I just— you gotta Like, think about it, you know, sit down and make some space for yourself to think about what do you like to do, you know, like what do you— what do you— here's one exercise that's good is like take your calendar, print out your calendar, and then everything that you did that gave you energy that last week, yeah, like circle in green. Everything that took away energy, circle in red. And then just do the things that are— try to make your calendar all things that are green. And find other people to do the red things.

Did you do that?

Yeah, I've done that a lot. I do that often. I mean, now I pretty much only do things that are green for me, so it's not hard. But like, you know, when I was— I've done that in the past many times.

How do you teach that to your children? Obviously you tell your children that, but then it's like, how do you get them to apply that when Let's say they're in school and they're like, all right, well, I don't wanna be going to school. This is taking energy from me. So what do you tell your kids?

But I think that's a valid question is like, how do you, I mean, my kids aren't at the, they're young, so they're not at the age where they're like really making choices like that. But I do think right now my job as a parent is to help inspire things that they love to do that give them energy. And like a lot of that is trying different things, you know? and being an example of like, um, somebody who is doing that for themselves, you know. And so, for example, I spend a lot of time of my time like making Burning Man art, you know. So I like art and I like Burning Man. And so, um, you know, for my kid, I wanted to see that in action and like to have the opportunity when he's— as he's growing up to like to participate in the creation of art on his own. And so hopefully that will create situations in the future where he's like, wow, I really love doing this thing and it's activating for me. You know, maybe it's not gonna end up being art, maybe it'll end up being music, or maybe it'll end up being programming or management or starting startups or whatever it is, right, doing sales. But, but having exposure to many different things and getting the opportunity to try to discover things that you love that give you energy is, I think, the first step in like knowing, you know, what gives you what you love and gives you energy.

Well said. What are you most proud of?

Um, what I'm most proud of? I mean, I think my family, like having a really healthy, grounded, happy family. It's like winning at life. Um, after that, I think I'm most proud of, like, my community that I've, you know, spent a lot of time building this, um, uh, art car which is like for Burning Man called Titanic's End. It's a giant LED iceberg. You can find it on Instagram at Titanic's End. And, um, you know, I'm like just very proud of like this community that comes together of like 100 engineers and builders and artists that make this project. It's a volunteer project. People just do it for love, and that is very inspirational to me. And then, you know, after that, proud of all the people who I've touched in some way. I think there's a lot of people in Silicon Valley that I helped mentor in some way, or helped them at the right place at the right time with their company, or they learned something from me, and, um, that have like, you know, gone on to use that knowledge or my inspiration or whatever to build something for themselves. And I, I think there's a lot of those people actually. And I, maybe that's, you know, like I did, it's just like I've been doing this for a long time and like there's been a lot of people that I've interacted with, invested in, mentored, whatever. And, um, I think that's, that's a point of pride for me. Yeah. Someone I was on the phone with, like a founder that I invested a very small amount in, like, um, Maybe a couple years ago, but I was on the phone with him yesterday or the day before, just catching up. And he was like, you know, you said like 8 months ago, last time we caught up, you said, uh, this thing, just like this, you know what, I don't even remember what I said now. But he's— as you said, like, um, you just need to like make it— I, I'm gonna butcher it. I said something, I gave him some advice that I forgot about immediately. He literally was like, this is all I've been telling our team to do for the past 8 months. Now they're doing like $10 million a month in revenue or something like that. It's an insane amount.

Why does mentoring feel so good?

It's just like, it's nice to know you made an impact for someone else. I feel like it's pretty common for people once they've become successful themselves, Like kind of giving to their community is, uh, something that becomes important, you know? So that second mountain. Uh, so for me, just knowing I made a difference for other people is like super, it's, it's impactful. I don't know why. I guess I love to be loved.

You write it down every day.

Yeah.

I like to end these podcasts with challenges for people. I asked the guest for a challenge. To help point a listener to do something in their day-to-day life that can make their life a little bit better. Does a challenge come to mind?

For the listeners?

Yeah.

Well, let's just— I mean, the gratitude journal is a great one. It's like you should every day— this is, you know, I use this app called 5 Minute Journal, but you can use any app. You could just write it on a notepad. Just what are the— what are things, affirmations, Positive affirmations for yourself. It takes like five seconds to write these down, right? Like I do. Like what are what am I grateful for? Like three things I'm grateful for every day. Those change often, and then three and then three affirmations, and those almost never change. You know, and I think that if you do this, like I remember when my friend first introduced this idea. My friend Amit Mahajan, who's the he's a tech founder. He was like, "I've been doing this journal for a couple months." And you should try it. It's called 5 Minute Journal. And here he's just showing me, he's like, you write down the 3 things that you're grateful for. And I was like, that is some hokey bullshit is what I thought. And then I was, but then I was like, well, it's only 5 minutes a day. So it's literally called 5 Minute Journal. So like I could do this for a week and it's gonna take 35 minutes, right? So I can do that and just see what happens. And then after I did it for a week, I was like, oh, this is kind of nice actually. Like I feel more positive and grateful for things. And so then I've been— that was like 5 or 6 years ago. I've been doing it every day since.

Wow.

So

that's powerful.

That's my challenge.

It's a great testimonial for 5-Minute Journaling.

Yeah. I mean, I say you should give me a commission or something. Anyways, the founders of that are great people. So, you know, they, they deserve it. They created a great app.

Yeah. Well, Justin, thank you for spreading your peace, your calmness, your wisdom here today. You don't know what you said here today that people will be ringing in people's ears for weeks, months, decades to come. So thank you so much for spending the time, and I'm really grateful for you. Where can we send people to connect with you further?

Um, they can find me on Instagram. You know, I don't really tweet very much anymore, so it's Instagram. Why no tweeting? I

don't know,

I kind of got— it became like very toxic, and then I just, I realized it was, it was kind of, you know, I was just putting myself in this zone to get— it wasn't like I was really getting triggered, but I'm like, why am I exposing myself to this? And then I just quit maybe a year ago or something. I haven't really— I mean, I tweet like promo, self-promotional things once in a while, but it's not— I'm not really on Though Instagram is probably where I am online. I don't know. Yeah, I promote my, my DJ career on Instagram, so come, come, uh, come live my joy. Help me live my joy by coming to my next DJ gig.

Very, very cool. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it, Justin. Be well.

Okay, bye.