Lessons from Twitch Founder - Justin Kan

It's like everybody has these scars that they're carrying around from when they're younger. I really want, I care what people think. I really want them to like me. I really want attention. I'm trying to like fill that hole by like, oh, if I just, you know, we sold Twitch for $1 billion, or I am like, have this like really great tweet, or I like go on stage at a conference, or I, you know, make a YouTube video viral on the internet, or I get mentioned in the New York Times or TechCrunch or whatever. And all these things, I'm like expecting something to change, right? Like, oh, that's the thing that's going to heal this scar. You're shoveling dirt into this hole that goes all the way through the earth, right? And like falls out the other side. There's like no end to it. You can't fill it.

What is up, you sexy bastards? It is your boy, Papa Shot, AKA Rabbi Can't Lose, AKA Noah Kagan. In today's chat, I talk with Justin Kan, who helped start Justin.tv and Twitch, which sold for almost $1 billion. I give him some shit about that. Anyway, this is a super fascinating episode. We talk a lot about life and death. And then we also go into some crazy stories about how Twitch sold for $1 billion. Is Clubhouse the next big social media app? And the whole GameStop thing that everyone's been talking about. So if you're interested in those things, plus having a good conversation today, you're gonna like this episode. If you're interested in learning more about Justin, make sure you go check out his YouTube channel. Search Justin Kan on YouTube. Before we dive into the show, make sure you're subscribed to my YouTube channel. That's youtube.com/okdork. We're gonna be giving away a company, seriously. So go subscribe so you find out about it. Also check out appsumo.com. You already know AppSumo, just ignore this part. But if you don't, go to appsumo.com. It is the number one place for entrepreneurs online. Also, special shout out to Bill Widmer. Dude, I've seen Bill online for such a long time. He left a review of the show saying, real actionable advice from one cool dude. That sounds like a movie poster. Bill, you're the man, and I love every other one of you listeners out there. You're gorgeous. Thank you for listening and tuning in, and if you want a shout out in a future episode, leave a review wherever you're listening to this podcast. I check every single one. It's funny, in our society, when things are bad, the first thing we have to say is something like, hey, our company sold for a lot of money, you know, but I have a high tax bill. Like we can't just be happy. Or maybe that's at least my observation. I just, I think things, I don't know, man. It feels like they're finally lining up in a very long time and I'm not chasing another thing. I'm like, I'm just happy with all the things going on.

Accepting what's going on is, I feel like that's what was a big, big thing for me too. Yeah, just being able to say, oh, I'm like happy with, I don't need things to be different in the world. I'm not like trying for, waiting for something to happen, like the next thing or my company to be X size or whatever, like, you know, Y dollars. I'm just happy to like be where I'm at.

I'm Jewish, but I like reading these Christian authors. They have really good books.

Anthony DeMello. Have you read Anthony DeMello?

Oh, I've started one of his books. His was a little bit too Christian for me, but Bob Goff or Donald Miller. And Donald Miller in his book yesterday was talking about, he thought that once he finally got married, everything would be fine. Like once he finally got the wife, he's like, oh, then it'll all be over. And I think I have that mentality sometimes.

About getting married or some

of these things? Yeah. Like once I get fame, once I get money, once I get the house, once I get the wife, like finally I can be happy.

That's a very common attitude. You know, I felt that way for a long time as well.

Yeah. How did you explore that and where are you at with that?

I guess it's been a while since we caught up. Well, at first I was very tortured by it, you know, since we— the time we met all through like my whole career. And then I started this new company, Atrium, because I was like, I want to do it even bigger. You know, I want to build a $10 billion company. I want to be like, you know, I want to be like Jeff Bezos or whatever. And then that company failed last year. But, but a couple of years before that, like while I was working on it, you know, I guess it was about 3 years ago in 2018, I drank ayahuasca for the first time. And it's kind of a wild story and a wild, wild trip. I can tell you the whole story. It takes a little while, but like the main thing that happened was The aftereffect, I'll just start with the aftereffect. The aftereffect was that I realized that all these behaviors that I've been doing my entire life were subconscious and they were, they were, I was, I was acting out of these subconscious behaviors that came from scars when, from when I was a kid. You know, when I was a kid, I wanted people to like me and approve of me. And I felt, always felt like an outsider. And I was a shy extrovert. I wanted to connect with people, but I didn't know how. So, you know, as a mechanism to try to get people to be attracted to me, I was like, oh, if I make a lot of money, I'll become famous. where I always stand out or do whatever I do, like crazy stunts to stand out, like then people will be attracted to me. And so it was like an awakening experience because I learned all this stuff about myself that I, you know, was quite obvious in retrospect actually. And it's like, oh, this is the guy who's like puts his life on Twitter, like on video, right? Like broadcasts his life on video. And he's also, you know, somebody who's like obsessed with Twitter and like making like fucking insightful tweets or whatever. But like, the point is, I didn't really realize any of that shit until I had this, this awakening. And then it's been a process of figuring out ways to be able to make conscious choice about like who I want to be in the world and like how I want to live my life instead of being reactive. Things would just happen. I'd be reacting to it instead of being intentional about like, what do I want to— I don't want to be in the world.

2 things with that. I'm curious, how did your wife react as you try to reintegrate to She's like, well, I married this one guy and now I'm getting kind of like another version of the guy.

Well, I mean, I'm a lot more present of a person and like a lot less like chasing something else, you know? And so I think I'm a much better husband and father and family member and friend, you know? I think she's been pretty happy and she's also on her own journey. We drank ayahuasca at the same time together, you know?

Oh, really? How would she respond?

And, you know, her traumas and scar tissue and sense scars from when she was a kid, it was like, different, right? So she has— she had her own experience and journey, and I think still integrating all that into her life. But it was very impactful. Have you ever drank?

Yeah, a few times. The word chasing is funny because I think that's also helped us create some levels of success on an external society.

Like, for sure. Yeah. Oh, the first step, actually, the first step was to say, oh, that's how I am, and I love myself for it. I accept that. You know, it's not very attractive to say, oh yeah, Justin, you're somebody who like wants to be liked, you know, like, or like really needs to be liked. And so he's like, you're someone who really cares what everybody thinks on Twitter. Like, it's not that, you know, at first, like most people will flinch away from admitting that. And then let alone to say, oh, like, I accept that. That's who I am. I love that. That's helped me. You know, I've been very successful because of that. And how do I want to show up in the world? Maybe that's not who I want to be tomorrow. You know, or today.

I think that accepting stuff is— I don't— I find that really, like, really front of mind for me in the past. I mean, I broke up with my fiancée last year, and that was a big change that sparked a lot of positive changes. But I think accepting myself has been fucking tough, man. Like, accepting, like, hey, you're always 5 minutes fucking late, dude. And like, you say you're not, but that's just really how you're fucking gonna be. Some of these other things, like, hey, I like attention, similar to you.

Exactly. Yeah.

I don't know if it's 'cause my parents liked me too much or they didn't like me enough, but I like the fucking attention and But I think I'm like embarrassed by it or like I go out there and I'm like, ah, should I be getting this attention?

Yeah, no one wants to be like, oh yeah, I'm the guy who likes attention. And so I'm just gonna, I'm like, that's why I'm on YouTube and shit. You know, it's better, it's easier to be like, oh, I really wanna spread knowledge. That's why I'm on YouTube. I wanna help people. But maybe it's both, you know, it could be both and that's okay.

I don't know. The accepting part has definitely been on my mind a lot. Just like accepting the way I am, accepting other people. I was with my, uh, 6-year-old nephew and he's just— he's not worried about being even accepted, you know? He's just like, there's no expectation. He's just like doing whatever the hell he wants, crying and doing all these things. And I was like, you know, the society hasn't impacted him yet, which I found kind of fascinating.

That's amazing. That's a beautiful observation. We're like born in this world pure and untraumatized, and then through the, you know, landing on the world Like entry into the atmosphere of the world where like, you know, we have our own scars that we pick up and then boom, you're an adult and then you can spend the rest of your life unpacking that. That's the human experience.

I guess, how are you approaching the world? I'm curious how you're thinking, how you're approaching the world differently. And then did you interact with your parents and talk about their experience?

Yeah.

So I just feel bad for parents, man, because like, I'm guessing you have— I don't know if you have traditional Asian parents. I had like super traditional Jewish parents, like go to school, work your ass off, make a lot of money and like They're just doing their best, man. They're just, you know, just like you as a parent now. And it's like, you know, can you imagine your kid in 20 years coming to you and be like, you fucked me up, Justin. You're like, dude, I did my best, man.

Yeah, exactly. I, that's, that's, I think that's a great observation because I, I thought the same to myself for a while. It's like, you know, I used to be very resentful with my mom. You know, she was kind of like Tiger Mom in her own way. She was not so much like be a lawyer or doctor, but like you got to do your best and like, you know, you got to work hard, all that, which is, you know, I think she was trying to do her best. And she came from a place of scarcity. You know, she had kind of a scarcity mindset because she grew up in a resource-scarce environment, you know, in Malaysia, in rural Malaysia. And so I understand it. And, you know, I talked to my mom a lot about ayahuasca, and I think she's, she's a positive change. I mean, she's always been on the spiritual journey, so I think it's not like that crazy for her. But, you know, I think the important thing was just to be able to say to myself and her, like, thank you, you did a great job. You know, I love you. And like, here's, you know, I appreciate Everything, you know, I appreciate it. I accept it. Good and bad are labels. Like, I accept the parts that were difficult and the part that was— the parts that were easy, you know. Like, and I am the person I am today because, uh, you know, of you, and I appreciate that. And so, you know, I used to be like so angry with my parents because I felt a lot of like— I don't know, I was just like fought against it. Like, I didn't want to be told what to do. I thought, you know, I was fighting against that. And now I think I'm much more accepting. It's like, oh, She doesn't need to change. I don't need my mom to not tell me what to do. I'm a grown man. I used to be like, I'm a fucking grown man, don't tell me fucking anything. You know, I'm rich as shit. I like made it so successful, you can't tell me shit. And then now, you know, she wants to tell me what to do, you know, what to do. It's like, okay, I accept that. I accept that comes from a place of love. You can tell me.

Hmm.

Why do I need you to behave a certain way or not behave a certain way? I accept that. I might not do it. I'm gonna make a choice, you know, my own conscious choice, but I, but I accept that it comes from a place of love. And I think that's been huge for me too, you know. It certainly improved my relationship with my parents, which used to be like kind of not great, you know, and now it's like, okay, you know, it's not amazing, you know, it's not probably the closest that we ever could be, but like, it's okay, you know.

With your relationship with yourself, one thing that is a question that probably since I separated and just been reflecting on, I'm curious your take because I'm still figuring it out is when did you become a man?

I guess in there is a question of what's your, what is your definition of a man, right? And so You know, I think there are different phases, you know. Like, there was one phase, there was one moment where I proved that I could be strong in the world, you know, like I could be on my own. I think that's probably something when, like, I started Justin.tv or around then, and I was like, you know, we can make it, we're gonna fucking survive, like we can, we can be on our own, and I can be on my own in the world, and I can, like, be a leader, you know. That's one. And then I think there's a moment Maybe a couple years ago where I had this transformational experience and I could be okay. You know, I could be like, I can accept. I'm like, I can be a source of peace and equanimity to myself and to people around me. And maybe there's like a layer of wisdom that was layered onto that, like, layer of strength. And so I think that those are the probably the 2 inflection points where I would say, you know, depending on your definition, like, I gained, like, I became something.

Yeah, just something I reflect on. Like I was talking with this guy, he runs a YouTube channel called Entrepreneurs in Cars, and his channel is like really aggressive in the way I guess I would label it. It's like, never date a single mom. You know, if the girl's interested, you fuck the woman. Like, you know, there's more out there.

Never date a single mom. I feel like that's a— I don't know. I don't get what's the logic there? Because if you have— she has a single mom, you might never have to have a kid, another kid.

That's true. I guess his, his point there is that like, you know, why would you want to really raise someone else's kid?

Now there's a lot of judgment in there.

Yeah, there's a lot. And I talked to him last night and I do like him. I just— and, you know, he has his perspective. I just appreciated it. And I asked him that question last night. I was like, when do you become a man? I think your point initially is the exact thing. Like, how do we define a man? You know, like, I think my stepfather as a man— the guy yesterday, Richard, said that it's like when you're born, you are a man. But I think a man is kind of someone who faces their responsibilities and like faces their shit. Like, it sounds like you had some stuff you wanted to face and you faced it. I think with my relationship, now that we talk about it, having the courage to be like, this is not what I want for her, for myself, and actually facing that.

I think that's a great definition. And I think I've faced various levels of my own fears at different times. You know, it's not— I think it's easy to think of things as a binary outcome, but it's like really a— it's a journey, right? It's a gradient. And like, at a certain point, one of my early 20s, I faced mine. Like, I can go out and prove a certain set of things and I can like work hard and I can be a good leader and I can tackle a new idea and rise to a new challenge, right? And that was one set of things that I faced, right? And then maybe like late years later, a decade later, I faced a bunch of my own internal demons and I was like, oh, I can like admit that I'm like this kind of person and I can accept myself and I can accept other people for who they are instead of needing them to be different or interact with me in a different way or treat me differently. And like, that was another set of things that I faced, you know.

For me, when I, you know, I was in Silicon Valley, as I got going, now I'm in Austin. I think that, you know, getting fired by Facebook led me to feel very motivated to be like, fuck you people, like, fuck this place, and drive me really hard. I guess what was your— sounding like you said as well, you're like, I was very driven to want to be proven and get accepted and get the success. Like, was it the parents? Was it just coming to Silicon Valley? Where did that come from?

I think it was— no, it was before Silicon Valley, you know. I think it was a kid and I think my dad doesn't, he doesn't show that much emotion, you know? And so I think I was always maybe wanting something more from, from him on the approval side. That's the one thing ayahuasca showed me. And then I think with my peers especially, like, I always felt like I was an outsider, but I wanted to be accepted. I, I really like people. I wanna connect with people. And I, I don't think I felt like I knew how to connect with people. And then I think I carried that with me and I always wanted, you know, I always wanted that. That's kind of where it came from. To the best of my knowledge, you know, I always thought if I could be somebody, you know, somebody important, then like people will care. They'll like want to talk to me. They'll want to like connect with me. They want to spend time with me.

Did you feel it when you got it?

No, of course not. I mean, nothing changed, right?

They really need— okay, Justin, maybe one of our future companies, we need to start like a ceremonies business, like life ceremonies. Like, you know, in high school you get a graduation. Like, there's no life ones. It's just like, I guess, marriage and death.

And that's a good point. I mean, I think that's— I think that's a great observation. And I think having ceremony is, is really important. And, um, it's like everybody has these scars that they're carrying around from when they're, when they're younger. And sometimes like you heal it, you know, I feel like I've actually healed a lot of my scar— scars. And now it's like I talk about it, but I don't talk about it with, with pain. I talk about it just, this is something that happened to me and I, I accept it. But before I was carrying around like this, these scars where it was like, oh, I really want, I care what people think. I really want them to like me. I really want attention. And I'm trying to like fill that hole by like, oh, if I just, you know, we sold Twitch for $1 billion, or I am like, have this like really great tweet, or I like go on stage at a conference, or I, you know, make a YouTube video, I'm viral on the internet, or I get mentioned in the New York Times or TechCrunch or whatever. And all these things, I'm like expecting something to change, right? Like, oh, that's the thing that's going to heal this scar. You're shoveling dirt into this hole that goes all the way through the earth, right? And like falls out the other side. There's like no end to it. You can't fill it. Like you can't fill it by like with material things or extrinsic rewards in the outside world. In my experience, the only way to fill those holes is to like go inside yourself and to understand and then to have acceptance. And you know, that was the that was the hard part in the journey for me.

Yeah, I guess because you sold Socialcam, didn't you? Before Twitch.

Yeah, but it was only only sixty million dollars.

Only sixty million. Ah, oy vey! Plus you have to split it with these bums, you know.

Yeah, exactly.

How'd that moment feel?

I mean, it felt good. Of course, there's like all these extrinsic, like extrinsic rewards in the outside world feel good for a moment, right? I mean, you've experienced that too. Yeah. Your company makes $1 million a month. You sell a company, you find, date a new girl, like amazing woman, you know, like you, you find somebody who's, you know, super hot or you get a like really rewarding message from somebody who says like, hey, you changed my life by your amazing tweet, you know, whatever it is, you know, those things happen and you feel good. And then it goes back to normal. You know, that's, that's the condition of life, right? And that's like what Buddhists talk about with where, you know, everything arises and everything passes. And there's a fundamental dissatisfaction in looking into the outside world for fulfillment.

Yeah, I think it's funny. Last year was the first year I started noticing how much I'm chasing it.

Yeah.

And I think a lot of what you're talking about, at least the way I hear it, is it's a lot of subconscious. Like, I don't think— I don't know if you knew that, like, hey, I've got a scar, it's right here. It's like inside. And it's like, you're not— I don't know if we're as conscious about some of the stuff going on from our behaviors. No, I was totally unconscious by it.

And it's It's so funny because it's so obvious retrospectively, right? It's like, yeah, of course the guy who put a camera on his head and said he's going to stream his life to the internet 24/7 became an entrepreneur and cared about getting in TechCrunch all the time and is doing all the social media shit and made all these Snapchats about startups. Of course that guy really wants attention and is trying to prove something deep inside to himself. If I heard that about someone else, I'd be able to diagnose it, but then for myself, it just never occurred to me.

Yeah. I guess on one hand, like that level of whatever, I guess labeling it is, it did help you accomplish a lot, right? So on one hand, it's like, I guess I don't wonder if that's like the evolution of man or life where there's like unknowing of ourselves. And like I had, I was bitter. I had a similar thing where I wanted my dad to just acknowledge like success and me and give me attention, which I guess I didn't feel in my youth. And so I went to him one day, I did say like, hey, I made $1 million. And he's like, that's cool. And, you know, but on the other hand, like that did help drive. Yeah. To, you know, get to where you are today. But then I guess we evolve with— I'm just thinking through it, like we're evolving now. It sounds like for you too, we're, oh, maybe this is not the way I want to keep moving in the next decade.

Exactly. It's recognition. Hey, this helped me. This is part of who I am. It's part of my story. I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for the past 10 years of this. You know, I wouldn't have the opportunity to, I don't know, seek a different level of consciousness if it wasn't for all of these, you know, this grind that I put in to prove myself and then to find that ultimately hollow. If you think of a movie, right, if you just watch the last scene of a movie, it doesn't make any sense. It's not entertaining. It's not fulfilling. Like, your life is like a movie. You have to go through the whole story arc. Like, bad things happen, right? Difficult things happen. Well, the difficult things happen because that's part of the movie, right? Like, that's, that's part of the— and that's the human experience that every person goes through their own arc.

Where are you today and how are you thinking about how you're choosing your— this, this next chapter?

The first 35 years or 36 years, it was like very tortured. And I was like, oh, I need, I need the world to be a certain way. I was chasing, right? That was the first part of chasing. The second part, I'm like, maybe I should just meditate all the time. I need to like calm down and like, I'm resonating at this excited frequency. Maybe I just need to like focus on being calm. And then now I'm trying to find like the middle ground. I realized like actually that first Justin, there's a lot of joy there. You know, there is stuff. It wasn't like all like, oh, I just want to be rich, right? Like there was like, oh, I love exploring new ideas. I like helping people. You know, I like making content and being creative. And so it's like, how can I balance that part of me with the part that's peaceful and has equanimity and doesn't need the world to be different and is a source of calm. So to me, it's balancing those 2 halves and having a whole person. So what that means is like, okay, yeah, I do want to be an investor. I do want to invest in things. I want those things to bring change to the world. I want them to make money, but I don't need them to. I accept whatever happens. I don't need the world to be any way. I'm not torturing myself about like, oh, the next guy has a much better investment portfolio, or I missed this deal or whatever. I just want to do the best I can, be the best Justin I can be. You know, I want to make content, but like, does it matter if I get to a million subs or 10 million or whatever? No. Like, I'm just gonna do what's fulfilling to me, what, what gives me joy in every moment, and, and try to be the best person I can be in the world. That's, that's kind of where I'm at right now.

What are you finding fulfilling these days?

I love making content. I love connecting with people. So I, I spend a lot of time like just talking to people and learning about people. That's why I have the podcast that I started. I just love to hear people's stories, right? Just like my story is a story arc. It's like, this is like, I love to hear other people's stories. I like to mentor people. That's why I like investing. I like to learn and mentor. And I think investing is one of the great vehicles for learning about new businesses and new ideas and then mentoring and advising other people. And so those are the things that are really activating me right now.

Part of me is like, would you want to hear this advice at 25 and would you be even open to it? I guess I was thinking for the people that are out there that are not fulfilled in what's going on, I guess how would you approach it at this point for them?

Yeah, so everybody comes to it at a different time, right? I think I heard people say, oh, if you make a lot of money, it's not going to change anything. Or it's like, you're not going to be any different. And I was like, I don't believe that shit. Like when I was 25.

Well, it's like they're already rich when they say that shit. I'm like, shut up, dude, you have it.

Exactly. Easy for you to say. You know, I, I know I'm very cognizant of the fact that there's a lot of 25-year-old Justins out there who are just gonna be like, fuck that guy, which is okay. But then there's also a lot where they see it and they're like, thank you, or I get it, or I, you know, the reason I love talking about this stuff, like I talk, I was talking about whether it's therapy or ayahuasca or meditation, consciousness, like disconnection from your, you know, the, the, your extrinsic goals and, and not needing things to be a certain way in the world. I love talking about all of that because There are some people who listen and there's some people who say like, hey, Justin, that was like, that advice changed my life. Or thank you. Like, I, you know, I went down a different path or I, you know, whatever it is. And that's very fulfilling to me.

Yeah. What a journey. It's like we're only halfway into it too.

That's the best part. My mom told me this. She was like, you know, you're so fortunate to be able to come to like this real set of realizations so young. You know, it took me all my life to like unpack some of my scar tissue around scarcity and how she grew up. She recognized that. She was like, it took me my whole adult life, you know, up till I'm in my 60s to like realize that. And you're, you have the advantage of having done like the same amount of work and you're 30 years younger than me. So I can't wait for the next, you know, how can I spend my time the next 30 years?

I'm kind of curious why it's gotten so popular in the past few years, like the meditation and the ayahuasca and self-reflection. Like, and I'm curious your opinion on, I don't know if I even have a good opinion, but I will say that like, you know, I've done a lot of that. I go to a lot of the therapy. And then I screamed at someone last week and I was like, you're not fucking enlightened, dude. And it's like, oh, I'm still human.

So, so many thoughts on that. The first thing is like regarding screaming at someone, it's like you're a human being, right? You're running human software and the human hardware. The human experience is, is an emotional experience. Like the point of meditation, my meditation teacher talks about, many, many meditation teachers talk about this, but the point of meditation is not to get rid of emotion. That's what I thought it was in the beginning. It was like, oh, you're just like Spock or something, right? The point of meditation is to accept your experience. Sometimes your experience is anger. Sometimes your experience is frustration or sadness or anxiety. Emotions are not— we think of them oftentimes as distractions. They're not distractions. They're information. Anger is actually useful, right? Anger helps you survive. Like in the hunter-gatherer human evolutionary phase, anger was a tool. It's like, oh, something bad is happening and I need to really get amped up to respond. So if someone cuts you off in the street and you feel rage because you feel threatened and you scream at them, that is like a natural human response, right? And the point of meditation or achieving a higher consciousness is to not say, I'm not going to get angry. It's to create a circuit breaker so that you can choose how to act in the world when you feel angry. Maybe you don't want to scream, right? Maybe you do. It depends, right? Like, it's like if the guy is actually like trying to kill you, maybe you want to defend yourself with anger, right? And so I think that You know, that's a misconception oftentimes is like, I'm not on the journey or whatever because I have these emotions or I have these experiences. And that, that's not, you know, that's not the case. And the other thing that really helps me is like forgiving myself. You know, it's like, because it's naturally human to have these emotional experiences and, and to be running this outdated software, it's like you have to accept sometimes you're gonna slip up. The path to enlightenment is not linear is something I always tell myself because, you know, I had this, I remember I was like, after I, I meditated every day for the first like 90 days I did, I've been meditating every day for like 2 years now. But like the first 90 days I was like, wow, I feel so good. And then I had one day there was, I was so pissed, like everything seemed like it was going wrong and I was like reacting very unconsciously. And I was, I was talking to my therapist and he's like, of course you're going to have bad days. And I, you know, I just realized, oh yeah, like it's not linear. Like it's always going to go up, right? It's monotonically increasing enlightenment. And then in terms of like, why do you think this is happening now? I think that's a super interesting question, but I think it's a societal reaction. Like, culture swings, you know, it's on, it's like a, on a pendulum. And we had this swing for the last 30 years, you know, since the '80s maybe, that's like hardcore me, you know, materialism, Instagram influencer, like, you know, wanting attention, like people flexing on each other with like how much they have and everything is about money now. And kind of like the measure of everything is money. And I think that the interest in like inner work is, is a reactivity. Yeah. to that societal trend, right? People are achieving it or they're seeing it and finding it wanting. Like, I achieved it, you achieved it. Like, we're both doing very well, right, professionally. And then it's like, oh, that didn't answer all my questions. And it solved— like, I thought if I just got rich, it would solve everything. Oh wait, it didn't. Now what? You know, and the people are asking that now what question. And some people are even asking it before they get rich, which is great, you know, and even more admirable.

I was telling someone this last night, like, if there's like a game I feel like my professional game score is like I scored pretty well, but then my relationships, I'm still working through these different levels that I want to work on myself and the type of partner selection that I'm working through. One thing, I mean, you said about forgiving yourself, I like that, man, and the nonlinear growth. One thing that I hung out with a friend of mine, Tynan, I don't know if you read tynan.com, he's awesome nomadic, kind of really interesting guy. And he always talks about being nice to himself. And I'll tell you, man, I've been doing it probably more hardcore the past 2 months than my whole life, and it's awesome. Like, I'll do some little things. On Monday, I really wanted to find this one song. I spent 10 minutes looking through every song I've liked in the past months, found the song, and I just couldn't believe it. I was just like, man, Noah, I'm so proud of you today. And it was like, just being nice. I know some of these, I think there's something there with people who achieve are generally dissatisfied, you know? 'Cause if you were satisfied, you wouldn't try to start new things. Yeah. Or do things most of the time. So it's— I think there's, there's a little bit more, um, when they say self-love, it's just like self-liking.

Yeah. My Twitter bio, the first line is, be kind to yourself. If you won't, who will? I heard that. I really wasn't my own original quote. I read it on like a tweet from Mike Arrington maybe. And I love that because so often we focus on kindness to the outside world, which is important, but I think it's equally important to have kindness to yourself?

I don't feel like I have either very well, dude, except until more recently. I feel that I don't know if I was ever super nice to myself. And then I don't know if I was genuinely like, I think if people spoke, you know, the book, there's like book Radical Candor and some of these types of themes. I think I was a lot of jealous, man. Like Justin then sold for a billion. This guy has a kid, he's got a cool wife, they've already got a house. And like when they used to talk about the putting the oxygen mask on the airplane, I always thought that was stupid because like you're going to die either way. Like you're going to crash, you're dead. But I kind of get it now more. It's like, yeah, make sure you got your oxygen and then you can take care of everyone.

Absolutely.

But I think it's pretty hard is what I noticed is I'm trying to be like, do anything and I'm like, if I'm not taking care of it, it was hard. So something I've definitely been working through.

Absolutely. I mean, I love that. The oxygen mask metaphor is a great one.

It's been good. I just thought it was always cheesy and cliché. Like, yeah, okay, I'm gonna put a mask on. I'll put on my baby or someone else's baby. I did think of you this morning in bed. That's why I texted you that. I was like, I wonder how Justin sleeps.

Like, do I sleep well?

Yeah. Are you sleeping well? Do you sleep like, are you a side sleeper?

I usually sleep, I mean, I sometimes sleep on my back. Sometimes on my side. I sleep well. I sleep about 8 hours. I'm thankful. That's another thing to be grateful for. I have friends who can't sleep, you know, it's terrible.

Yeah, I was thinking about that and I was like, man, we all sleep. It's universal. And, um, then it led me to the question of, someone asked me this question. I was like, man, what an interesting question. I'm curious for you. What do you think have been the most risky moments of your life?

I almost drowned a couple of years ago, abalone, trying to abalone dive. You know, I was, we were in the water, like we shouldn't have gotten in. It was, it was, you know, my wife and I, it was very choppy. Water was coming in like super hard and the waves started coming in really hard and we were trying to get out. And then it wasn't like a beach, it was kind of like you have to climb up these rocks and like every time I climb up I get washed off. And I'm not the world's greatest swimmer, she's actually a much better swimmer than I am. So I was like, fuck, you know, at first I'm like, this is annoying. And then I went like to like, oh, this is a problem. And then like we were screaming for help and then I was like, I'm like losing energy. And then I was like, this is how I die. in the span of like 2 minutes, those were the different phases of thought that went through my mind. And then I was like resigned to like, oh, I'm done. And my wife was like, no, you gotta— she was, she was like, we've got to wait until the set of the wave calms down, ditch your fins. This is hard to climb up with the fins, ditch your fins and climb up. And so she kind of walked me through it and I got up and then I pulled her up, you know, and it was, you know, that was probably the riskiest moment ever. That was the moment I thought I was dead. You know, I thought it was game over for me.

What went through your mind at that moment?

I was just like, this This is the end. This is the end. And then afterwards, when I came— when I was out, I was like, oh wow, I've had a pretty good life. Like, it's okay. Like, I don't regret anything.

I was also gonna say, you chose a good wife. A great wife.

Yeah, she's amazing. Saved my life.

I was thinking your motorcycle crash was pretty fucking wild.

Oh, that was a bicycle. Yeah.

Oh, that was a bicycle? I thought it was motorcycle because you were— didn't you get real fucked up?

I did get fucked up, but it was a bicycle. So I went over— it's an electric bicycle. I went over the handlebars over a speed bump, and I, I was trying to brake, but I braked with the wrong— I braked with the front brake, which is my own fault. And I went end over end and I broke both elbows and like I split my lip, which is why I have this scar bulb because I kind of split open down the middle. And then, um, I broke my— one of my teeth. I knew it was fucked up. I like couldn't get up, you know, and it was like, oh shit. And, um, and I went to the, you know, they took me to the hospital and I was just trying to express gratitude the whole time. I was like, yo, this is it. Because I didn't know, like, I could have had like a spinal injury or whatever. I couldn't really move. I was like, man, Well, if this is it, I'm very thankful I got this opportunity. I just had a kid and I was like, well, I had the opportunity to have a kid, great wife. I was like expressing my gratitude and that, I think that really helped keep me sane. You know, I was talking to the EMTs and I was like, thank you for picking me up. Like, I really appreciate you guys, you and your partner. You know, it's like gratitude is the thing that kept me sane.

Do you feel like you weren't grateful, like in your 20s, like you weren't as nice to all these people? Because it feels like that's something that's, you've brought up a lot this, this chat.

No, I wasn't grateful. I was always like, what am I going to get next instead of what do I have today that's fucking amazing? So every day for the past 2 and a half years, almost 3 years now, actually, I've done a gratitude journal. Like, I wake up in the morning, I do a 5-minute journal. I think Tim Ferriss talks about it. Like, every day I wake up, put in my 3 things that I'm grateful for. It's really changed my outlook.

Yeah. What was today?

Grateful to be building my fund with my friend Robin, who I love. Grateful to have a great reputation and then grateful for all the people out there who are working for me and willing to take a chance on me.

That's beautiful. Today I was grateful for having a morning routine and for like, this is not as an insult, but blue-collar trades workers who fix my heater.

Yes.

But tell me a story about how Justin.tv turned into a $1 billion acquisition.

Justin.tv, in the beginning it was just a crazy idea that I had and I was going to stream my life to the internet. 24/7, no breaks. You're going to watch me sleeping, in the bathroom, taking a shower, whatever it was, right? That was the idea was really, it was kind of like social media before there was social media. Because this is back in 2006 when we started the company. You know, if you broadcast one person to the internet and people watch, they're going to, you know, they're going to find something interesting in there. And long story short, I recruited 3 co-founders, Michael, Emmett, and Kyle. And we set to work on this. We built all the hardware to create the streaming setup. There was no Instagram Live or YouTube Live at the time. And we launched the show in 2007, March 19th, 2007. We launched the show to the internet and people came, like all these people from all around the world showed up and they were like, why is this crazy guy streaming his life? And mostly they came in and they were like immediately left because they're like, this guy's fucking boring. They were watching me do the things I just told you, right? Like I'm like taking a shower or sleeping or like on my computer programming. They were like, this content sucks. We weren't content creators, we were 4 engineers, 4 nerds. And so very quickly they were like, your content sucks. And so then they actually started pranking us and they would call the cops on us and order pizza just to try to spice it up. They'd order pizzas to our house and all sorts of terrible things. We were the first victims of internet abuse. And then after that they were like, okay, why don't you create some interesting content or you should let other people stream. We had all these people who came to us and said, I want to stream my bike race, or I want to stream a talk show, or whatever it is. Okay, how are you doing this? So the light bulb went off and we said, hey, let's make Justin.tv a platform for all live video on the internet. Anyone can create their own live video. And that's what we did. And we built and scaled that platform. We launched it that year. And for the next 3 years, we just continued scaling and scaling and scaling. And it became a pretty big website. We ended up raising $7 million from different venture funds and we had like 25 employees. And there's people streaming hundreds of thousands of streams a year with millions of viewers. It was the top 250 website in the world. And then around 2010, everything changed because the traffic had grown and grown and grown, and then it started tapering off. And we're like, well, something's not growing on the internet. We need to do something different because the internet's growing. And so we're shrinking relatively, right? And this is a bad sign. If you're in a growth space and you're not growing, that's a real bad sign, right? And so we said, what can we do next? And we all got together as founders, the 4 founders, in this like really shitty conference room in the back of our office. And we said, we were like, start debating different ideas. And one of the ideas was from my co-founder Emmett. And he said StarCraft II had just come out. He loved watching the StarCraft content. And he's like, I just want to watch video games on our site. And there's like, there were a couple of people who were streaming video games. He's like, this is, this could be a big thing. And the rest of us were kind of like, what? Video games? You know, is this like, I don't, is this really ever going to be mainstream? I don't know. Evan was really insistent though. And so we had this other idea for a mobile app, a video mobile app that's kind of like TikTok is now, but this is 8 years before, 10 years before, 10 years ago. And so we had these 2 ideas, like a video game streaming site and a mobile app for online videos. And we couldn't decide. So we said, okay, we're going to just incubate both of these ideas and try and see which one works. That's not a great way to run a startup, but we were very unfocused. And so we just said, we'll do these both ideas. And so we had a team around video games and we had a team around the mobile app. The mobile app, long story short, we worked on it, we worked on it, we launched it and it just didn't grow. So we decided, okay, we're going to get rid of that. We turned it into a different company. We like kind of spun it off into its own new company. And my co-founder Michael took that and ran with it. With the video games, my co-founder Emmett was the one who's like really in love with gaming. So he became the kind of leader of that team internally and we just started working on it. And eventually it was like part of the Justin.tv site at first. And it grew and grew and grew. And eventually he was like, okay, let's make it our own site, right? Like its own independent site. And so we were going to call it Xarth, X-A-R-T-H, uh, xarth.com. But at the last moment, Emmett was like, that name fucking sucks. Like I have this better name. We're going to call it twitch.tv. And so that was kind of the birth of this idea of Twitch internally. And with Twitch, the real secret was we just went to all the gamers and we said, hey, what's it going to take for you to stream on, on Twitch instead of whatever you're doing right now? And they said, well, mostly they wanted 2 things. They wanted love, they wanted more followers, they wanted more viewers. That's what creators want. They want to spread more broadly. And then they wanted money. They wanted to be able to do it as their full-time job. And it wasn't like that they needed a lot of money. Before, we had tried to figure out, oh, could we buy sports rights for Justin.tv or anything like that? That was always hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. These guys who wanted to be gaming broadcasters, they wanted literally $100. If they could make $100 a month or $50 a month, that would be non-trivial to them, right? Because some of these guys, Guys who were amazing streamers who were really popular online, but they were also working at Burger King or Walmart as their day job, or GameStop or something like that. And so we started helping them make money and we started helping them get more followers. And before we knew it, we had this snowball of more and more broadcasters coming to the site and they really knew Twitch as a community that supported broadcasters. And so even to this day, if you look at how people, how the YouTube community treats YouTube versus the Twitch community treats Twitch, Like the broadcasters know that Twitch like has their back. That was kind of how it started. And so it grew after that. It was, you know, story gets more boring, kind of grew and grew and grew. And 3 years later, we sold it to Amazon for $970 billion— sorry, $970 million. And, um, that was the 8-year journey.

Why not a billion?

Because they want that like 99 cents, you know, it's like, we didn't pay a dollar for it. We paid 99 cents. I mean, believe me, we tried.

Oh, really?

They want to pay what they want to pay. And we were willing to accept it, I guess.

What was it like negotiating with them? And did you approach them or they approach you guys?

They approached us. We actually had a deal with Google that was like fell through. And then we had another deal that fell through and then Amazon kind of got reactivated by our bankers. And then we had talked to them, you know, maybe 6 months prior, they were interested and they kind of, so we started talking, you know, that way. I guess they approached us, but like we had had an ongoing conversation in the background.

So what do you think the takeaways for other people looking at, you know, growing successful companies are from that experience? Like there's some I heard, which was, Kind of look at what's, one, you're interested in, which Emmett was interested in games, but two, what's working? So it seemed like watching Justin wasn't working, but maybe if we opened it up for other people, it was working.

Number one, it's like, talk to your customers, right?

Oh, what?

It sounds counterintuitive, but everything we learned was from directly talking to our customers. The first pivot to opening it up as a platform was from talking to our customers. The second pivot to do gaming was from talking to our customers. And that's what the only thing that made it work was really understanding what our customers needed. The second thing was, if you're growing into a space, I think oftentimes people are like, is this company big enough? I fell into that trap. Is this space big enough? Is it going to be a big company? I think the most important thing is to make sure that a bunch of people really fucking love you and love your product. And almost any company can be a billion-dollar company in the internet era because there is a ton of people who like anything. It could be basketball cards. It could be Pokémon cards. It could be watching people play video games on the internet. Like, there's so much, so many people in the world that you can make a pretty big company on the internet doing almost anything. And I think like the more important thing is that you have like that core group of users who really love you. And then the third thing is probably more tactical, which is just companies are bought, not sold. You know, like you can't go, we had tried to sell Justin.tv multiple times and tried, you know, shopped it around and tried to get people to buy, but like nobody was interested because it wasn't, we were probably smelled desperate, right? We looked desperate, smelled desperate. In this case, when we did sell the company, it was much more because we had built something that was really valuable that had a lot of user retention, and then people started coming in and trying to buy the company.

Is Clubhouse the next big social media app? Why or why not?

Yeah. Clubhouse is going to be bigger than Twitter. It's going to be fucking huge. And if you think about it, there's a couple reasons. Number one is just they've done a beautiful job of the invite flow and really getting people activated. When you sign on, you have to have an invite, but when you get And the reason they do that is not to keep people out or make it exclusive, even though that's what journalists want to say. The reason they do that is because when you're invited by somebody, then that person will activate you by like, they will invite you and then they'll like put you in a room with them and they'll send all your friends like message like, hey, Justin just joined Clubhouse. Why don't you welcome them? So that you'll have an experience where you actually talk to a bunch of people on Clubhouse as your first onboarding experience. And so the onboarding is just fucking phenomenal. That's number one. The second thing, reason why Clubhouse is going to be huge is Clubhouse is to podcasting what Twitter was to blogging. It's just more accessible, more dynamic, and more real-time. With podcasting, you have to go and set something up and you have to record on GarageBand or on Riverside or Zencastr or something like that. And then you got to edit it. And there's kind of like, okay, you do an hour at a time or whatever, maybe it's half an hour. You have to really think about what am I going to do? With Clubhouse, it's just like, kind of like, oh, I have this conversation. It's an interesting conversation. It's in front of a live audience. It's like, it's like you're in and out. You can do it for 5 minutes. You can do it for 30 minutes. It's just lower mental overhead. So it's, it's much more accessible, just like Twitter. Anyone can tweet. Not everyone can blog, right? Even though blogging, you know, it's like easier than writing, right? So Clubhouse is like that. That's the second thing about that is it's also a second screen experience. There's not many experiences where Second screen's the wrong word, but it doesn't have to be your full attention, right? When you scroll through Twitter or Facebook or Instagram, that's like your full attention, right? You can't do it while you're driving. You can't— well, you shouldn't. You can't do it while you're walking around or while you're in the gym, while you're cooking. Clubhouse is like podcasts. It's an audio-only experience primarily, so it can compete in all these times when really the only competition is podcasts and audiobooks. And so that's like, I'm about to go to sleep. I'm in the gym. I'm like cooking. I'm on my commute. You know, all of these times when you can't really be looking at your phone, you can be on Clubhouse. And so that's for those reasons. I think Clubhouse is going to be huge. It's like the new talk radio. And like, I think a lot of journalists, a lot of like, you know, people want to shit on it. But to me, Clubhouse is a beautiful experience and it helps connect people all around the world. And, you know, I think it's going to be bigger than Twitter. You heard it here first. I'm putting this— I want this to be on YouTube so that when it is, people are going to be like, that guy is a genius investor. Boom.

Did you get on? You're one of the early guys on that?

No, I'm not an investor. I'm not. No, I mean, like, I'm just a genius, maybe prognosticator was what I meant. I'm not a— I'm not an investor yet. I mean, I would— I want to be. I've said that publicly. I'd love to be, but I'm not yet.

It's funny because I've got on early because Andrew Chen from a16z invited me on and I met Paul and Rohan and I was like, that's cool. I like it. I can see where it's going to be popular. I had no idea it would be this big. Like when I— certain things I'm like, oh, those are going to be big as fuck. It's gotten much bigger than I expected, but there's— it's interesting to watch. I don't know if there'll be— I have noticed that people, I think like Instagram attention has gone down and I think the YouTube attention's gone up and then the audio of Clubhouse has gone up.

YouTube has gone up. YouTube, I think, has done a really, really good job of making the series, like really promoting like YouTube creators and series and like having that be the primary kind of focus of YouTube and rewarding people who are like the most engaging. And I think that's kind of gotten their attention up, you know.

It's funny. Yeah. I wonder how YouTube's done such a good job. I don't know if it's the medium of video versus Instagram is only really on the phone. You really still can't use Instagram too much on the web. I guess you can, you can't post shit, but I feel like YouTube has just created the content or incentives or community where it's like people like me and now you and others among a lot of different verticals have created like really high quality entertainment.

Yeah.

I wonder if there'll be a, I guess TikTok is maybe the Clubhouse of YouTube.

Maybe. Yeah. I mean, TikTok is great too. Like the platforms that I really invest in and love, Clubhouse, TikTok, Twitter, and then now starting with YouTube.

Last clip that we were curious about is you had that tweet that over 100,000 likes about the GameStop controversy. You seem like you're centered and grounded, but I would be like, yo, I'm the fucking man today. Like when your tweet blows up with that level of virality, I guess what's your take now that dust is settling a little bit on this GameStop, Robinhood, Reddit, and the whole drama?

Well, I think the way that the brokerages shut down, the online brokerages shut down consumer trading, retail trading on GameStop and AMC and others is totally fucked up. And they all say it's because of the DTCC and capital requirements on the clearinghouse side. But I think that's— and I'm not deep in it, but it seems like bullshit for a bunch of reasons. Why didn't they disable selling and not just buying? That's one question that various legislators have asked, which I think is a very good question. Another is like, why weren't they communicating that in the beginning? And then the third thing that people don't think about is like the banks all control the DTCC. They—

What is the DTCC?

The organizational body that sets the clearinghouse rules for stock settlements. You know, there is an intrinsic bias there, right? Where, you know, their incentives were to shut down consumer trading, retail trading of these stocks. And so I feel like it exposed the corruption of the system. It's super fucked up. I feel like we're kind of slowly degrading our trust in our institutions, like American trust in institutions. And this is like a big one, another watershed moment. And I just think that that's— I don't know how we solve this problem as a society. I guess my kind of indignation and rage in this situation is that I felt that it exposed the game as super rigged against the average retail investor. And I think that is— America is built on these principles of anyone can make it, right? It's like a level playing field. And when that's not true, we're not creating a system that people are going to be satisfied with and willing to participate in for very long. And I feel like the last 4 years of Trump has been an example of people expressing their rage at the system. And I feel like we were hoping for things to swing back, right? post-Trump. And, you know, this is like a, in my opinion, a kind of a continuation of that, of the trends that have made people so angry. And that makes me, you know, afraid for our country.

I guess for some reason, as you were talking, I had— you gave me this visual of someone like you go behind the curtain, like in Wizard of Oz, and you're like, these motherfuckers, right? Like they're controlling it all along. Just a few of these fucks that are out there. And, you know, it almost seems like now the news has moved on to kind of the new thing. And but like the way Robinhood behaved, they put out a blog post. Oh yeah. And it's just like, it's baffling and shocking. And it's like, how do we, you know, for everyone out there, like it almost like reform or actual change on that? Or is it just like kind of go back to keep going to the way it was?

I don't know. I mean, I got so much of an outpouring of people who were like, thank you for voicing what I feel or thought, or, you know, speaking up for the common man. I mean, I hope that more people continue to do that and fight that battle, but it's hard to not be cynical in this case where it's like, oh, the news cycle's over and now we're just going

to go back to business as usual. You know, it was shocking. One, it was just insane and it was just shocking that like, they're like, all right, we're gonna stop. You can't buy anymore.

It's like, if that's not corruption, what is, right?

I don't know. I like that at least that Deep Value person, Deep fucking Value, is like still holding and like talking about it. Have you been following? I'm sure you're following him a little bit.

Did he sell?

He didn't sell yesterday and he was down $13 million.

That's funny. I feel like this, the interesting thing is like people buying these like movements, these financial movements that are like based on conviction versus like any sort of trying to make a short-term maximizing their monetization in the short term, right? Their realization of value in the short term. That's pretty interesting and kind of new.

As you now got to a level of wealth, how has your relationship with money changed?

Yeah. Well, I think it didn't change because I made money. It's like when I made money, I just wanted to make more money. I have friends who are billionaires, I could do better. And it was not that I wanted to buy— what did I want to buy? A Challenger or a private island or something? Not really. It's more like just a number, right? That's like, it's kind of like how many Instagram followers do you have? Or how many likes did you get on that photo? It's like just a number that we want to see go up. That's human nature. What changed for me was when I did go through all this self-work that we talked about earlier, it's like, and I realized like the extrinsic is never going to drive lasting happiness for me. And I did invest in meditation and invested in therapy and, you know, all these other things. Then I started to realize like, oh, okay. I can accept and be happy with who I am. Like, I have equanimity with what's going on. I don't need the world to be different. I don't need to have any more money. I don't need to have— be more famous, whatever it is. And that's what really brought a lot of lasting peace and made money less important.

I was also going to say, you can hang out with me. I'm only like in the 8 figures. So you hang out with poor people like me and you're like, oh, now I'm doing really well. You got to stop hanging out with these fucking SF billionaires, man.

There we go. There we go.

I like that you said the word investing in meditation. I like that because it is an investment. Investing in therapy, investing in ayahuasca is like Hey, here's things that I think are going to be improving for me.

Exactly. They're like— and oftentimes people think, oh, I'm just going to do this thing and then it's going to be different. But meditation is a practice. You got to do it every day so that you get the benefits, right? If you just play basketball one time, you're not going to be a great fucking basketball player.

And then the last thing is what sparked the— you know, you are Justin and you've always been Justin. You'll always be Justin. And so I'm curious how that evolves with, you know, the YouTube creation and wanting attention with that, but also wanting to share a message.

Yeah. Well, with you, I love creating. I actually do like creating intrinsically. It's not so much, it's kind of like, would I do this even if just 5 people watch it or 0 people watch it? And I do love the process of thinking, oh, like how to craft a message to like have impact and how to like be a good speaker and how to tell a story. I love storytelling. And so YouTube is all, you know it, it's like that YouTube, TikTok, making video, it's all those skills go into it. Right. And so for me, I do it, if I'm doing it from a place of intrinsic motivation, And I'm, you know, it's something I love and maybe I'm spreading a message of positivity. That's— I feel like that's good. If it's— I'm doing it from like, oh, I'm going to do a stunt, you know, to like try to get the most views, then maybe that's like not the most healthy place for me to be doing it from, right? So it's just— it's like kind of where is it coming from, you know?

Amen, man. Have you read a— it's literally on my table right here. Have you read Storyworthy?

No.

Do you Kindle or physical or audiobooks?

Yeah, Kindle. I'll buy it.

No, I'll send it to you. Dude, it's awesome. I just started getting into it. My buddy, actually one of the best YouTubers I know, Ali Abdaal, Ali's amazing. Oh, fucking amazing. He's a doctor turned YouTuber. Yeah, he recommended this book and he's got a huge channel and he'd love to— I'm guessing he would love to have you on and it would help jumpstart your show.

I would love to. Perfect.

Yeah, he's fucking awesome. He's like kind of the new— I don't know, I feel like kind of the new Silicon Valley is the new YouTube to some extent. Like some of these really interesting people sharing their stories on there.

Yeah, I love YouTube. It's amazing. All right. I know you got to go, so—

I do, man. You are awesome. I'm glad we got to connect. We'll do it. We'll do it again. So I appreciate you, man.

Cool. All right, bye, Noah.

Later, brother. That is a wrap. I hope you loved the episode as much as I did. If you want to hear more about Justin, I would highly recommend his YouTube channel. Just search Justin Kan on YouTube. Next, text a friend you love 'em. Yo, dawg, let's go get matching bracelets together. And before you go, tweet at me @NoahKagan and let me know what you thought of the episode. Also, remember to go subscribe to my email. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Sendfox.com/Noah. Oh my God, AppSumo also. AppSumo is giving away a discount for first-time purchases, so use code NOAH10 at checkout for 10% off. It's already crazy because it's already a deal site, so you're getting deals on deals. Oy vey, Noah. All right, final plug. Thank you to my amazing team, jason@podcasttech.com. Please don't hire him away from me because I need help on these shows. Thank you to David, Mitchell, Jeremy, and Jen. And I think, what's this new guy's name? Jonathan, probably. For the Dork Team, for all the magic that y'all do. And finally, Shout out to Mel Safi— what a cool name— who is our partner success manager at AppSumo. Props for working on the partner launch parties to make sure our partners have successful launches on AppSumo. How's that a piece? Have a nice day. What's your favorite vegetable? No, I'm really curious.