Justin Kan (JK) - My Life After I Sold Twitch To Amazon For $970 Million

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On this week's podcast, Justin Kahn, aka JK.

I started building art and we ended up building this large iceberg called Titanics. And lasting satisfaction has only ever come from doing things that intrinsically give me joy and the relationships I have with the people who I'm close to. The tech industry didn't rate us at all. They were like, you know, They thought that it was a joke.

If we took all numbers off everything, it would truly make even better art.

That's like how I got my start in, you know, 20 years ago. Like, otherwise I would have quit.

Justin, aka JK, how's it going, man?

It's great. Good morning. Good morning for me. Yeah.

Yeah. Where in, where in the world are you?

I'm in California. I live in Northern California out on the, on the coast, like in the The countryside. I know that's like your vibe too, right? You live out in the countryside.

It's the way forward. I had a podcast that didn't show before this podcast, and it's fucking insane weather in the UK right now. So I was just like, okay, I'm going on my second walk for the day just around the fields and just to get out, man. It's what it's about, right?

I love that. Yeah, it's grounding. Super grounding.

Has it always been like that for you?

No, I lived in San Francisco for a long time, for almost 20 years, and then moved out to the countryside in COVID. I had this house out in Sonoma County and so moved out and yeah, we just decided to stay. You know, it's like so peaceful out here. It's good for my kids.

Yeah, man. There's something about countryside, which I don't know, there's something about it that just for me is pretty special. Every time I come, don't get me wrong, I love a city. Like, New York is one of my favorite cities in the world. I lived in Detroit for a long time as well, but still just coming home every time, it's just like no neighbors, green fields. It's perfect. Make as much noise as you want.

Yeah, I feel the same way. I'm pretty extroverted. I need that city energy. A couple times a month, once or twice a month, and then, you know, and then I get back.

Yeah. How do your kids find it?

They love it. I mean, I think that's one of the big reasons I like living out here is my wife and kids just really, it feels a lot more grounded, you know? They're like playing outside and, you know, it's really peaceful out here. Yeah.

Yeah, man. Yeah, totally. I wanna go back from day one. How did your life start? You've lived an extraordinary life compared to most people in the music industry. We're very fortunate in the music industry to live extraordinary lives. And then you decided to get involved in the music industry and just shit all over everybody in the music industry on a level of extraordinary lives. You've achieved things that a lot of people would never be able to achieve. And I kind of really want to dig into that and then dig into why music as well. Yeah, let's go back to how it all started for you.

Well, thank you. Yeah. So I've had a whole career outside of music, I guess. I started off 20 years ago building things in the tech industry and I guess it all started, I just didn't really know what to do. I mean, I guess the real answer is it started when I was in university. I guess that was a little bit over 20 years ago. I was going to graduate and I was like, oh, what are you supposed to do? I remember thinking I was going to graduate in a year. What do people do after they graduate? I mean, this sounds very naive and probably privileged as a viewpoint, but I just had never— I'm someone who doesn't plan ahead very far, actually. People are probably surprised when I say that, but I didn't have any idea. I had never thought about what kind of job I would want to do or anything. So I wanted to—

That kind of makes sense, though, because, sorry to butt in, but I was doing a bit of research on you, and it makes sense that you don't plan because you've done so much. I'm just like, how do you go from that to that to that? And then that, and I'm like, you can't focus on all those things at the same time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. I've always just followed my interest in whatever it is. And so 20 years ago, I was like, went to the career office, you know, there was like a department that was like trying to help people find jobs. And I literally asked them, I'm like, what am I supposed to do when I graduate? And they're, they, you know, I went to an Ivy League school and they were like, a lot of these it's a very, like, a lot of, a really ambitious crowd, right? So they were like, well, you know, a lot of people will become a consultant or an iBanker or a lawyer. And I was like, I don't really know what any of those things are, but being a lawyer involved more school. And I knew about school and, you know, I was pretty decent at school. So I was like, okay, I'll like try to become a lawyer. And I took the exam. It's called the LSAT in the US to become a lawyer, I remember. And I did— I thought I was going to like crush it. I thought I would just walk in there and just destroy this exam. And I did pretty bad, actually. And then I just— that like completely eliminated my idea of being a lawyer. And so, it's my senior year. And then at the same time, I was— a friend of mine came to me like right around the same time I was taking the exam. He came to me and he was like, hey, we should start a company because we have all these— we have basically nothing to do. We have all this opportunity, the free time, and there's all these smart people around. So maybe we should start a company. Just like kind of random idea. And I was like, yeah, that sounds cool. What kind of company would we start? Because I didn't like— I had no ideas or anything. So we just started brainstorming and we decided— this is back when 2003, 2004. 2005, really 2004, when the internet was just kind of getting going with, you know, like new Web 2 applications and stuff. And like, so we were, we just started brainstorming, we ended up deciding to kind of build this account. Gmail had just come out. So we were like, let's build a calendar version of that. And that's kind of like how I started building things in tech. And then the lucky thing was I applied to this, a friend of mine had sent me this new program called Y Combinator that had come out that was trying to fund people starting companies. And they were like, hey, if you have a company, we'll fund it. And so, we were like, oh, we have a company. It was like the 2 of us and no customers and no product, but we were like, we're trying to start one. So, we applied to this thing. And then, we got into this program, very nascent program. They funded 8 companies over that summer. And the founders in this turned out to go on to do really incredible things like some of the guys, one of the the guys was the founder of OpenAI eventually, you know, 20 years later, another 2 of them were the founders of Reddit. And so we kind of got into this thing right in like the beginning of the internet. And that's how I started off my career in tech. Yeah, so it was kind of like totally random.

Super random. Because yeah, did you come back from— did you come from like a computer background? Or was it purely like, what, the internet's born? Let's just fucking go.

My partner did, my co-founder. He was like in computer classes, computer science classes at university. And so, I was like, hey, you need to teach me how to build this software so we can like have this company. He was like a childhood friend of mine who also went to the same college. So, he was like a— but what I didn't know is like, you know, what you learn in university, it's like had nothing applied to the real world. So, he barely knew anything and I like knew nothing. And together we thought, oh, we could figure this out. So that company didn't work out, you know, like kind of long story short, that company didn't work out, but that gave us that initial, you know, knowledge and impetus and momentum to like start companies. And then the company after that, you know, a year later, that company was basically failed. And we were trying to figure out how to— we had raised a small amount of money for it. We were trying to figure out how to— what to do. So we YOLO sold it on eBay. Wow. We just like listed on eBay. We ended up selling it on eBay for like a couple hundred thousand dollars, which to us, you know, we're like one year out of college. That was a lot.

Wait, you sold the company on eBay?

Yeah. I just had no— I was like—

How do you even sell a company on eBay?

You just list it. So, what, you know, it's kind of funny because what happened was I started this other— we had actually almost sold it to Yahoo, which was like a real internet company at the time. And they were going to give us $1 million, which at the time, you know, I'm like 22 years old. I was like, that is crazy.

You know? Yeah. Yeah.

And so I, I, but then they, they ghosted me like they were. We like were negotiating the deal with like the business guy there on like the team that did what they call communications with the email and stuff. And then we, he was like, okay, you know, I wanted like $2 million, which sounds crazy, but like it was for me and my partner. So it was like $1 million each.

$1 million each makes sense.

And then he just immediately came on the phone We're negotiating. I'm 22 years old. I don't know anything. Like, he saw on the phone, this is like a real business guy. He's like, when I said $2 million, he immediately was like, $1 mil. And then I just said, yes. Like, there was no hesitation. I was like, yes. And then he was like, okay, I'm gonna write up the paperwork and I'm gonna get back to you. And then he just straight ghosted me. Like, for— and years later, I found out the story of what happened. You know, we can go into that if you want. But like—

Yeah, what happened? Tell me about it.

So he You know, Yahoo was interested in buying our software because Google had come out with Gmail and was building this suite of like, you know, the suite that everybody uses today. And so Yahoo was like, had been the dominant player, but then they were like all of a sudden behind. So they were looking for pieces to put in and calendar was one of them. We had built this, you know, kind of like modern looking calendar. It looked really much like Google Calendar, but like right before Google Calendar came out.

Yeah.

And so they were They were interested.

I still hate Google Calendar.

Well, then you would have hated our product because it was like Google Calendar, but it was worse in every way, you know?

So, okay.

So he, he was like, but it was way better than what existed before.

Of course. Yeah. Like pre, pre-Google Calendar. Yeah. Like there wasn't anything.

Well, you would, there was Yahoo Calendar, but for Yahoo Calendar, it was crazy. You had to like, every time you wanted to make a new appointment or something, you had to go to a different webpage, you know? Like it would be, yeah, it was like 30 seconds between like, I'd be like, okay, I want to make one appointment, then it's like you fill out a form and then press submit, and then it's like loading, loading, loading, loading. And so we made it like, you know, kind of a modern, fast application. And, you know, this is— now I feel like an old guy saying this— this was 20 years ago, it was like pretty novel at the time. And now it's just like, whatever, table stakes, you know?

Yeah.

So they wanted to modernize their suite of, you know, products to compete with Google. But then it turns out, It was political inside the organization where they were like, the guy who was in charge of this whole group in Yahoo had basically hired his friend to run the calendar already. So then he didn't want to put it in, you know, put these 22-year-old guys who like didn't know anything on it,

you

know? So then the business guy was like embarrassed to call me back and be like, oh, sorry. So he just straight ghosted me.

That's amazing.

So then like 6 months later, we were like, oh man, that was like our shot. You know, we're kind of sad. So they decide, like we just decided YOLO, sell it on eBay out of desperation. Basically, we're running out of money. We're depressed. You know, it hasn't really gone anywhere. So we just list the website on eBay. And I remember it was going, you know, we got one bid. We wanted to get, I think the reserve bid was $50 grand because that's how much money we had raised from other people. And we wanted to be able to pay everybody back.

Pay them back. Yeah.

So $50 grand to me still seems like a lot. So I was like, okay, I want to— I was like hoping we'd get one bid and then we got a bid on it. And I was like, oh shit, that's amazing. And then I remember the morning of the auction, like it was like literally expiring on like a Saturday morning. And I'm in New York visiting some friends of mine and, you know, my old friends were, they were like, all my mates are like 20, 30 years old, right? So like they have this really shitty apartment. It's 80 degrees in New York. I was in my underwear because it's so hot in their apartment at their computer, like their desktop computer. You know, this is 20 years ago and I'm pressing refresh, F5 on their eBay auction page.

Yeah.

And then it went up to like $80 grand. I'm like, oh shit. And $80 grand, like me and my partner, we make a little bit of money, you know? So it was like, that's cool. And then I refresh again. It's like $100 grand. I'm like, oh, wow. And then I kept refreshing it like for 30 minutes. It just went up like $113,000, $150,000, $185,000. And then like, it ended at $258,100, which is like a number that's burned into my mind forever. And that meant that like me and my partner each got, you know, we got paid like 100 G's, let's say something like that. And so I was like, this entrepreneurship thing isn't that bad after all. You know, this is like—

Pretty easy, just put it on eBay.

Exactly. I was like, this is pretty good. We, that's like how I got my start in, you know, 20 years ago. Like otherwise I would have quit probably. I was like thinking about going back home and like living with my parents and, you know, getting a job. But after we sold the company on eBay, I was like, oh, this is like, it could, you know, I mean, this is non-traditional, but like I made something so, you know, we could keep doing this.

Yeah.

And after that, that's what led to the creation of Justin.tv, which is the company that eventually became Twitch.

Yeah.

You know, and it's, it's our mentor, the guy who funded us from Y Combinator, basically, he came in and said, he was, he was like, after this happened, we're kind of like, now what do we do? You know, it's back to like a year ago, 2 years ago, when I've been like going to my college counselor, like, what am I supposed to do? I was like, now what do I do? And he said, hey, this guy, Paul Graham, is like a legendary tech investor.

Okay.

He said, you know, why don't you guys start another company? And we're kind of like, after that, you would fund us to start another company? That was like not you know, the expected path. And so, we went into his house, I remember one afternoon in Boston. And we were like, he was like, what ideas do you have for our company? And we pitched this idea that he absolutely hated, which was kind of like a page layout for your online content. So, you can print a coffee table book out of your like online blogs and stuff.

Yeah.

He's like, I got, you know, he writes, he wrote online. He was like, I would never use that. Like, What else do you have? And we didn't come with like really any backup ideas.

Yeah.

So I just pulled this idea out of my ass that I had like pitched. I've been like talking about, which was like, what if I just made a 24/7 livestream of my video to the internet? You know, that was just like live all the time. And this is like before Twitter was out or Instagram. This is before social media. So he was kind of like, Was YouTube

around then?

YouTube had been around and sold. Yeah. So, YouTube existed and we had this idea of making like almost like a reality TV show out of normal people's lives. Yeah. And I think my core instinct was really right, which was that people are really interested in other people, which is kind of how you find social media today.

Of course.

Yeah. But nothing like that existed at the time. And it was— we had this more like 24/7, always live idea around it, which turned out that was like not right for a bunch of different reasons. But so he was like, oh, that's interesting. Tell me more. And I'm pitching him this idea of like, there'd be different people, like you'd have to follow like a model in New York or like an entrepreneur or like, you know, someone who was an actor or something like that, different people, and you'd follow their lives and see glimpses into their lives. And that was like a new kind of content. And I remember his investing partner was there, this guy who's a famous professor at MIT. His name is Robert Morris. And Robert was like, Justin, I'll fund that just to see you make a fool of yourself. Because I was telling him, I'm gonna put this camera on my head and like stream 24/7. And so we walked out of there with a check for $50 grand to start another business, which was this live streaming company. And that's the company that eventually turned into Twitch.

How does that go from Justin.tv to Twitch though? Like, that's That's a jump.

It totally is. So, you know, our core idea was like, let's make a live stream of my life as a start, and then we'll like add other people onto it. And so we had to build this technology to make it work. So we— there was no like internet streaming infrastructure. So we ended up doing a ton of research and like our back— you know, my background wasn't really engineering, but by that time I had learned a lot. My partners was. So we were like, we built this site to enable me to stream. And then we launched it. This is 6 months after maybe we raised the money. We launched it and tons of people come because it's super novel, you know, and there's like on the Today Show and MTV and all these, you know, legacy medias that no longer anybody cares about. But like, at the time, it was super big. And people were like, why are you doing this? All these like old newscasters. I remember Ann Curry was like, what do your parents think? And I was like, you know, it's kind of nice, novel, whatever. And so I got this attention. People came, but then they'd come and I'd be like sleeping or just like on the computer or doing some like normal shit. And they'd be like, this show fucking sucks. So luckily, you know, our show kind of bombed, but luckily people were asking, what do— like, how am I— how are you doing this? How can I stream something on the internet? Because there was no YouTube Live or Instagram Live or anything like that. No one was like going live. So the light bulb kind of went off of Hey, we could create a platform for anyone to stream live video.

Yeah.

And then we did that and we called it, we kept the same name, which was Justin.tv, which was originally named after me. And then we, so anyone could stream on Justin.tv. And then eventually what happened was there was one category that my partner was really into. Like the site growth kind of stalled out. It was like a decent company. We were like a 20-person business like 5 years later. you know, making millions of dollars of revenue, but it wasn't growing very much. And—

How is it— sorry to butt in, but like, how is it making revenue then?

Same as mostly video ads. So the same thing that you see it today on Twitch, we invented. This is like probably gonna be annoying to every single person listening, but like, you know, those ones that play in the middle of the stream, like where it pops up and you have to watch it. Like we like invented that. basically. So we put them on these ads and we're making revenue on ads. And there's still some, there's some like people paying kind of like the subscriptions today, but that's really nascent. And then my partner Emmett was really like, hey, gaming is what's next. And like StarCraft had just come out. He was really into gaming. So he's like, I only give a shit about the gaming content. We should focus on gaming. And we kind of started experimenting with that. And then that just grew and grew and grew and eventually took over the whole thing and like that was it, you know.

That's amazing, man. When did, when did, when did Justin.tv turn into Twitch?

We, we, it was like in 2011. So we started the company in 2006 and launched in 2007 and then 4 years later. Yeah.

So early. Yeah.

Yeah.

Like I generally had only heard of Twitch probably like,

like 5 years ago maybe

or something. 2018.

Maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It started— it always grew. It was, it was crazy because like in when we launched it, we launched it in Twitch in 2010 in a very nascent way. So like almost 4 years after we started the thing. And then it was like Justin.tv was still around. That was actually much bigger for a long time. And then Twitch kind of crept up and Twitch—

Oh, so you didn't close Justin.tv?

Yeah, we didn't close Justin.tv because Justin.tv was making all the money to pay for everybody. But Twitch was like, the passion and like where we thought there was future growth. So we all just focused on, everybody focused on Twitch and then eventually Twitch grew bigger. And then around 2014, right before we sold the company to Amazon, we shut down Justin.tv because everything had gone Twitch, like the whole company, the vibe, like all the traffic was on Twitch.

It's crazy how a rebrand can change everything.

Yeah, it is, actually. It was like—

Because you're packaging the same— you're literally doing exactly the same thing, but you're just repackaging it in a different way, and it appeals to different people, and then it grows even bigger.

I think it's like music, actually, with artists, right? Like, if you have a specific vibe with hardcore fans, that's always gonna be more powerful than something that's, like, kind of OK for lots of people, you know? So, by Twitch— that was an internal debate, because we were like, how could gaming be bigger than everything, right? Like,

yeah,

but it turns out if you have like that really strong gaming culture, and we kind of narrowed it and narrowed it and narrowed it, so it just focused on the gaming streams. But then now, you know, Twitch, if you go to it, it's like everything again.

Yeah.

And so, but, but, but the, the popularity and momentum came from that like hardcore gaming culture. And that's why Twitch has a very distinct culture today.

Yeah, it's, um, it's, it's very true. I love, I, I absolutely love branding. I like, it's something that I, I think like if if I wasn't in music, I'd probably start a branding agency or something like that, just because I, I love how you package certain things. Yeah. And how people— you could be literally doing exactly the same thing and it look, feel completely different, and it have a completely different audience. Yeah. Um, and it's interesting in music, like, especially now, like, you're seeing resurgence of different sounds. And then you just see it, how that artist has like just repackaged that sound in a slight different way, but it just attracts a whole new country. Like, yeah, just would never have listened. Like, like the thing that comes to come to mind now is that UK garage. Like, it's with like Sammy Virgie, even with like Zoolan, like what she's doing at the moment. It like these artists that you would never have thought can kind of flip a genre to a bigger audience than the— you— than London. Yeah, pretty much. Or like a very small scene in the UK, and now it's— they're the biggest artists in the world. And you're like, oh, it's this— but it's all how have you packaged that and how, how have you presented that to the world. Because technically the foundation, although they're great songs and what they're writing is great, but it's actually how they packaged it in my opinion.

100%. I totally agree with that. It's like, you know, I'm really inspired right now by, like, along with everybody else in the world, by Anima, right? Where I, when I heard that sound, I was like a fan for probably before they got super big, you know, when they were doing Tale of Us. And I was like, this music will never appeal to a broad audience. That's what I thought. I was like, this is like, dudes, like, got like a very specific segment of guys. And then, you know, to see how like the whole package with the art style and like how it's been kind of shot for Instagram, and then it becomes viral and everyone wants to have that cultural moment. And now he's like selling out, you know, dates and dates of the Sphere. It's like, that's

crazy. Yeah, because you're right, because no disrespect to, to him, like, he's changed the industry, but Musically, it's not groundbreaking. And like I'd say that to him, if you know what I mean. In my opinion, the music isn't like oh my god! I've not heard this before in the sense of when it first came out. Yeah, but now because it's so big, everyone's doing it. I'm like oh guys, come on! Like let's push the music forward slightly. However, on a visual, on a branding sense, you know exactly what you're fucking gonna get.

Yeah.

And and and you're gonna get. a robot pushing out of a screen and running out of a screen. And it's what people want. And you're creating an experience for people. And it's like drinking a Diet Coke, right? Yeah. It's like you know exactly what you're going to get. And I think there's a level of what we need to do that in this world to create a product that is sellable.

Yeah, I think that's right. Music, you know, music is a product. And you talked about this a lot on your podcast. It's like, it's not just the music anymore. It's the artist. It's their social media. It's like how they, you know, it's kind of like the vibe that someone knows they're gonna get at that when they go see a show from that artist. And so, you know, I think the best artists who are consistently selling out are, you know, create some sort of unique package for a specific audience that really resonates with that audience.

consistency.

Yeah,

I want to go back to when Twitch sells to Amazon, um, which I didn't even know that. Yeah,

they, they bought it in 2014, so over 10 years ago.

Damn, that's crazy. What's that phone call like, the initial? Is that even a phone call?

It was great. I mean, it was crazy. I made a whole YouTube video about this because it was—

Yeah, I was, I was on your YouTube earlier, but I haven't actually watched that specific one.

Well, I'm happy to tell you, like, yeah, it was crazy. Because what happened was we went through this process where we were trying to sell the company for 6 months. You know, we're like—

Why?

I remember there are a bunch of different reasons. Like, one, you know, we're 30 years old and like the opportunity to get paid, like I'd be lying if I said that that wasn't super appealing. You know, number one.

You started a business. Why do you start a business? To make money. Makes

sense. Yeah. So, you know, we wanted to make money. Number two was, We were at an inflection point actually in the business, which I think was kind of a risk where we were heavily reliant on League of Legends was the biggest game. And that was like, that was 40% of Twitch traffic. And it wasn't clear if that was going to go up as a percentage or down. And if it went up, you know, they were, there was kind of a rumor, maybe they would start their own, maybe they would, it would be, they would try to make it, you know, against copyright for you know, that the people who use their content to create a new stream with, you know, League of Legends would have to pay them or something like that. And, you know, so it was kind of like this, like uncertainty in the business. So those were probably 2 factors. And number 3 was maybe like that the tech industry didn't rate us at all. They were like, you know, they thought that it was a joke, right? Like when we would go and pitch to raise money, like my friend started Pinterest, right? And I remember he had like the same number of unique monthly visitors as us, like the same order of magnitude. But like his valuation was like 30 times Twitch because when we would like go and talk about Twitch, like these guys, you know, the guys who write the checks in Silicon Valley, they're like, I mean, now I am old guys who are like out of touch, right? Like, you know, so they just were like, this isn't a thing. What is this? I remember someone wouldn't lead us. We were trying to rent an office and they thought we were like a fake company. So they like refused to like consider leasing us their office. You know, I'm like, we have money in the bank. Like, you know, come on.

It's so funny because— sorry to butt in, but like, attention nowadays is worth so much money.

Yeah.

And back then when Twitch was Twitch, at the beginning, you had the most amount of attention because like you were capturing people's attentions for long periods of time, which if you think about it nowadays is worth more than anything.

Yeah, yeah, that's true. I think the world's caught up, right? The world has caught up to being like, oh, this is like That's actually a super valuable company. But at the time, they were just like, people did not think it was. So we couldn't, it was really hard for us to raise money to fund the business. And it was pretty expensive because there's all this streaming infrastructure costs and stuff like that. So those were probably the 3 reasons. So we went to sell the company. And at first, it was actually to Google. We went to Google and we were like, Google was, we were talking about partnering with them. And then they eventually said, hey, we want to buy it. And they started off at like $150 million, which sounds like a lot, you know, that was a decent amount. But we were like, nah, I don't know. And they kept coming back to us and saying like a bigger number. Like it would be like next week, $225 million. Like literally every week, they were the worst negotiators. They'd just come back, $225 million, and then like $350 million. And then it just went all the way up to like almost $1 billion, like $850 million plus $150 million in retention. And then we're like, Yes. Yeah.

Thank you very much.

Thank you. Yeah.

Google wants.

I remember getting the call from my partner and I like literally fell down on my knees. I'm like on my knees laughing out loud. Like, holy shit, that is, you know, it's mind-blowing. And we ended up, you know, what happened was like they, we got into it. So we took, we signed the deal, but like there's a closing period that happens where you like go from like a term sheet You know, to like papering the docs, right? Like to writing, you know, kind of like anything. Like if you probably same thing, if you get a Label Deal or something, you have to like, there's like the major terms and then your lawyers take it to like the real, like fleshed out docs.

Yeah. Yeah.

So

it's just not $850 million.

So we were like, we couldn't agree in the, when it came down to papering it, like we thought that the, You know, the FTC, the government would like maybe not allow this merger because they were like—

Makes sense.

All 98% of user-generated video and we were like 1% and then everyone else was like 0.1%, you know? Yeah.

Yeah.

And so we couldn't agree on those terms. So then they ended up, we both walked away from the deal. And then we got another one from Yahoo that was even bigger, but then they changed their mind at the last moment. So that was like a 2-week romance. And then finally, Amazon came in and they made us an offer and we ended up closing with them.

How does that feel like 10 years ago, not 11 years ago now? Like, how does it feel to like sit back and like, do you still think about it or is it just life? Is it just normal to you now?

It's just life. You know, for me, it's interesting because I didn't, you know, it was like really amazing for like a month. Of course. Like it was, and you know, it's probably like anything, you know, you've had your share of accomplishments and like, whatever, you know, that just becomes your new normal, you know.

Of course. Yeah.

I remember it was like way beyond anything I'd ever imagined for myself in life. And then one month later, it was like, oh, that's just how it is, you know. And I remember thinking to myself, like, wait, why don't I feel more fulfilled by this? And I actually ended up starting another company later because I was like, oh, I want to make it bigger or whatever. And then The good part about Twitch, you know, it's super blessed because it's kind of given me the freedom to explore my own passions and stuff. But—

Yeah.

Maybe more importantly, it really gave me the freedom, like the understanding that like long-term fulfillment could never come from extrinsic accomplishment or like the external world. And it made me like try to learn like how, what is wrong with me that I am not fulfilled? And the realization of like, oh, it's not about like what's wrong with me or not. It's more like, you know, if I want to be happy, it can't— I can't be relying on accomplishing something in the outside world because you don't control that, number one. And number two, like everything will fade. Like if you accomplish something, you'll— you think you'll be like super happy for the rest of your life, but you'll just actually— that will become your new baseline. And it—

Yeah.

Like I was like the remedial student because it took me really a long time to figure that out. And even years after After selling the company.

What is that? What is that mental process to kind of go through that you have to take to embark? Because I think from an outsider's point of view, it's also like the expectations of everybody else around you.

Yeah.

And also, like, we've all achieved things in life, right? And I think it's the— like, I can speak for myself, the expectations I put on myself of like, Wow, you've done that. Now you have to top that.

Yeah, yeah. I think that's human nature. And it's also the nature of the society that we live in, you know, where we're constantly getting bombarded by like comparison. Like I was listening to your podcast with Nora Impura. I'm a huge fan of her, you know, yesterday. And like, that was part of what you guys were talking about, right? Which like, you're on the phone, you know, people have their phone all the time, they have information overload. And I think that you have comparison, like you're especially like as a DJ, as an artist, you know, you're on Instagram, you see everybody, it's like almost a ranking, how many, who has more followers. And you can look at Spotify, who has the streams and like who's, you know, Beatport number 1 or whatever. And it's the same in tech. You know, that's something that's very shared among the industries where you're like, how much money did you raise? How big is your company? You know, it's human nature. And I think it exists in every industry. And so the path for me was, you know, I was, I'd sold the company and I knew conceptually I've done better than I ever dreamed. But then I didn't feel that way. And I had friends who started like Airbnb and Dropbox and Coinbase and they were like way bigger. You know, we sold our company for $970 million, but their companies were like $10 billion or whatever, you know, some insane amount. And so then I was like, man, what did— like, where did I go wrong? Like, I was like literally thinking that. And then—

So crazy, man.

I know.

Yeah, I know.

It's insane. And then I was, I started this other company because I like, I'm going to make a $10 billion company, right?

Yeah.

And I wasn't happy. This company was like not a good fit. It was like more of like an enterprise. It wasn't like, it was more of like a business-to-business company. It wasn't like, it wasn't that interesting. What was it? It was a legal tech company called Atrium. And so I just thought it was very mercenary. I was like, I'm just going to do what I think can make the most money basically and be successful. And I hated it for a bunch of different reasons. But I wasn't, so I was kind of torturing myself, you know, this is 4 years afterwards. And I was like, why? And I ended up drinking ayahuasca, actually. And in the ceremony, I saw a vision of my dad. And I was, this, I love my dad and I have a great relationship with my dad. But in the vision, I was like screaming at my dad. I was like, why aren't you proud of me? I've done so much. And I'm like, this went on for like seemingly hours, but probably like 10 minutes. And then when I woke up over the next, you know, I felt like extreme catharsis when I woke up. But like over the next like couple months, I realized that what that vision meant was like that everything I'd ever done in my adult life, I'd done to get the approval of the outside world. Because when I was a kid, I didn't feel like I got that approval I needed from my parents and peers and like the people around me. Yeah. And that's not to blame them. That was just my own self-conception of like, totally happened, right? And so I realized like, you know, that's why I wanted to become an entrepreneur and be successful and whatever is because like, I wasn't a popular kid. I wanted— I always felt like an outsider, you know, I felt like if I achieved, then I would feel like I was an insider, you know, or like feel connected to people. And then downstream from that, I was like, there were kind of 2 revelations for me. One was, was like, well, I don't I can be proud of, I can love who I am, right? Even though that's not like a very attractive thing to admit that I like really give a shit what other people think of me. Like, I can accept that that was something that was adaptive for me. It was like some behavior that helped. That was like me trying to get what I needed, felt like I needed from the world. Yeah. And then number 2 was like, I don't have to live that way anymore if I don't want to. I could show up any way I want to. And so that's when I started really focusing on What are the intrinsic things that make me happy versus focusing on the outside world to deliver something to me to make me happy?

What are those things?

It kind of brings me to probably a lot of, you know, things like music, but like just, I love to connect around new ideas. Obviously, I love new industries and learning and following my curiosity. I love mentoring other people and, you know, kind of helping other people. And I love the creativity and the creative process. And art. And, you know, so I've, I tried to like lean into a lot more of those things in my life and then do them not for the extrinsic reason of accomplishing something, but for the intrinsic reason of like, just, you know, because I like to do it and I want to like see what happens. And because I have, you know, my, it's, I have love to do it, you know.

Yeah.

And so like in music, for example, I can tell you how I got into DJing and all of this, but like, when I think about music, I think about it, I would, the old Justin would have been like, oh, I want to accomplish something. I want to play in front of some big crowds or like have a single that does whatever, you know. But for me now, I'm like, oh, I just want to treat it like my hobby. And like, I want to do things I love to do because I love to do them. Like if I work on a song, I want to work on one that I think is fun, you know, and like cool and like that I like. Yeah. And then if I want to If I, you know, play a show, I want to like have a good time myself. Like, I don't want to do it because I want to impress upon the outside world something or expect the outside world to deliver me something.

It's really special because it, it takes— it's really strange because I think at the crux of it, that's why we start everything we do. Yeah, certainly. And I can't talk for everybody, right? Like, but I know some people start one thing just to make money, right? And I fully respect that. Um, but I think when it comes to create— actually creating something, it always comes from

like a

generative place. Yeah, this is what I really love to do. And I talk about it with, with my mates in music. It's like, take away social media, take away every single show, Take away every accomplishment, take away every release. If there wasn't any financial gain, if there wasn't anything like that, if, if you had a normal job, normal 9 to 5, at the end of every day you'd still come in here and make some music.

Yeah.

Or you'd still paint a picture if you, if your passion was painting a picture, or starting business, starting like a tech company, like a business or something like that. If coding was your passion or something, you'd still just do it. And I think it's really interesting that you're kind of coming into this industry in the most perfect way anyone could come in, right? Because it's like you're not doing it for a career, which I think nowadays so many people come into it as for a career, right? Yeah. Like, DJing now is a form of earning money. Uh, producing music is now a form of earning money to the open public. It always has been, but it's to the open public. Social media allows that to be open. And, and it, and it is kind of crazy that you're coming in now Don't— I don't know your financial situations, but it's like, that's not what it's about.

Yeah, it's not, it's not to live, you know, for me, it's for the love of it. And I think, you know, all the best things start because somebody loves it. And it's their creative expression, right? And there's a creative outlet, and they just want to do something cool. And then it turns out that really resonates with a certain audience. And then you know, eventually it becomes big enough that maybe they become doing it for the money or other people see them and are emulating them for the money. But I think the best, you know, the best things start with the creativity and doing it for yourself out of joy, you know?

Yeah.

And so just reminding, it's so easy to get lost from that in every industry, like, you know, music, tech, et cetera, that like, it's like, I think it's a good reminder to always, you know, tap back into it. It took me a long time to figure that out for myself. You know, I like to say the test for me is like, What would I do? It's kind of what you just said. What would I do if tomorrow the thing I did today made no money and no one ever knew about it?

Yeah.

And I would still, I wouldn't think it was a wasted day. Like, that's what I want to do. You know, I want to just do things where like I'm doing them for my own intrinsic reasons. And I'm blessed because a lot of the things I like to do, do, you know, financially are viable or lucrative or whatever. I love the creative aspects of entrepreneurship, et cetera. And so, You know, that is a blessing. But just looking at it through the lens of just what is my own joy has really served me in my own life to be much, much happier. Like, you know, yeah, much happier.

Yeah, it's crazy because I think like I can get caught, so caught up in it. Like a lot of, a lot of us can do. I'm just, just like I'm sure you do on certain days, right?

Yeah.

It's not something— I don't, I don't know about you, but for me it's not something that is a forever feeling of like— like, I question my career on a daily basis. Like, any— anybody saying anything bad about my career, I've said it 10 times worse than what they could ever think. Yeah. The, the brain is, is a crazy thing of what it does to you inside, but the crux of it is you still turn up every day and, and, and get on with it.

100%. It's easy to be zen in a podcast. Like right now, I'm like, happy. But then you're like, launch a song and it doesn't do as good as you wanted. And then, you know, you just always have to remind yourself, hey, like, you know, this is what do I really— what's really important to me? You know, and it's not easy.

It's interesting though, because you've just released, I believe it's your first record.

Yeah. So what happened with music was I basically, I got into music because I love I started going to Burning Man, you know, in the Bay Area. It's really big out here.

I expect nothing less from you. I literally expect nothing less.

Yeah. So, in 2011, I went to Burning Man for the first time and it really opened my eyes to art and music. I was like, holy shit, this is incredible. And so, started making Burning Man art and I ended up making bigger and bigger Burning Man art. And in 2020, sorry, 2021, One, uh, we decided to build like a giant iceberg art car, kind of like a Mayan Warrior or Robot Heart. But I don't know if you know much about Burning Man, but it's like—

I've never been. I got asked to go coming out of COVID and I didn't want to spend the money to go. Yeah, I get it. I'm, I'm not into— I'm into like— so I live 15 minutes away from Glastonbury, which is where Glastonbury Festival is.

Yeah.

So I'm like cool with going to festivals in dirt, but heat and dust, I'm just like I will go.

Yeah, you should go one day. You know, I'd love to— you come with me. Um, yeah, it'll— it's— I don't like camping. I don't really like— I, you know, I live in the woods, but like, I don't— yeah, it's kind of weird because like I don't love spending that much time in the outdoors. I mean, I'll go and then come back to my, you know, house or whatever, but like,

totally,

yeah, I'm not a camper. But Burning Man's different. It's like you don't— it's kind of like another world, you know. You don't really think about being, you know, camping. But, um, I went out and it was like a really incredible eye-opening experience to art. And I started building art and we ended up building this large iceberg called Titanic's End, which is like a 70-foot-long iceberg that it's like a synthwave iceberg. It lights up with 200,000 LEDs. We have all these engineers that volunteer on it. So there's like all this custom like visualizations, you know, et cetera. And it has a—

I'm on the Instagram of it now.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we built like all this really amazing art and there's a, 100,000-watt Danley sound system on it.

Wow.

And so we put, we basically run a mini festival at Burning Man every time. It's like 6, we do like 6 days of like electronic music for 12 hours a day. And it's all volunteer. Like everybody just puts this together, everything from like building this thing, all the artistry, the visuals, the bookings, bring out the DJs. Like everything is like volunteer. So we built this thing and I was like, I'm putting in so much energy into building this. You know, people are sleeping at my house, 20 people deep to build this thing for the final month of Burning Man, you know, like, and so I was like, I need to, I should learn how to DJ because I had actually done a little bit in college, you know, 20 years ago, but then I was like, I should like get back into it. And so one of my friends on the project, he kind of like taught me in my kitchen and I was like just having a great time. learning. And then that in 2022, when we brought this thing out for the first time, I remember someone didn't show up for their slot and I hopped on like in a sunrise with my friend. And I was like, this is the best I've felt in since I can remember, like at least 10 years. I was like, this is the most fun I've had. I should like, I need to figure out how I can do more. And so, you know, that kind of like got me into it, you know.

It's amazing, man. It's— I like— we're so lucky. Like, this— what we do is so fucking good. And it's like, I think I want everyone to experience that feeling.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Like, and I think also in the early days, having the naivety of doing something that, that makes you so happy when you don't think about the industry, when you don't think about the business, when you don't think about Anything else. You're literally just playing music and people listening and dancing. There's just no greater feeling.

Yeah, yeah, 100%. I was like, it's, it's sharing music and, you know, doing something that you love. Yeah, like, and, uh, it's— I love the storytelling aspect of, of DJing and bringing people through a musical arc. And I think I'm like, I love like listening to music. Like that was, you know, I just listened to music all day. So like for me, that, you know, sharing that is like really, you know, incredible feeling. And then I remember a couple weeks after that first really big time that I DJ'd out at Burning Man, I was at Sound Nightclub in LA. And I remember I met somebody who had seen our art car and he was like, yo, it was so awesome, such a beautiful piece of art. And I loved like this Friday morning sunrise. Whoever was doing that was like, that DJ, that set was like incredible. And that was the time that I just randomly hopped on and I was like, oh wow, that's amazing. He like thought it was actually good. And then that coupled with like a couple of weeks after that, I was in Las Vegas for like with a bunch of friends. And I remember we were at like XS and a very famous, I won't say who because I don't want to put anyone on blast, but like this very famous DJ was on and he made like a bunch of mistakes. It was like, you know, just like beat matching mistakes. I think he was like maybe a little fucked up. And I was like looking at him like, what? And then looking at the crowd, I was like, everybody didn't care at all. They were just like having a great time. And I was like, I could do this. Like I was like, I could do this more, you know? And so then that kind of kicked me off on like Should I do more?

I love that. That's literally one of the reasons why I don't go to parties is because I spend my life, I spend my night judging the DJ and the music that's getting played. It's bad. It's really bad. And then from DJing, how does the production side of things come into it?

Yeah. you know, pretty quickly was like, okay, like no one's ever gonna wanna book me as a DJ for any actual event unless I have some music, you know, figure out some like music and hone in. It's kind of like what we talked about. You have to have like a package, right? A brand. And like, and so I was like, okay, I haven't, I put in my 10,000 hours like as an entrepreneur or like programming or whatever, but like I need to, like, am I gonna be able to put in 10,000 hours into like Ableton or like Pro Tools or something like that, right? So I'm like, I need a partner. Yeah. with what I'm really good at is like building teams. Like it's kind of like what you do as an entrepreneur.

Totally. Yeah.

And so I was like, I should find a partner where they're a producer and I'm the DJ and we like partner up and they teach me how to make music and we like kind of play out together. Because I also like DJing as a duo actually, or like back to back with someone more because to me it's that more extroverted and like feeding off the energy of someone else and like seeing what their music they're interested in and like kind of trying to find something that like matches that and takes it, you know, coordinating on a journey, shared journey to bring someone on or the audience on. It's very, I like, I love that part. So I was looking for a partner and one of the, you know, friend of a friend, my friend's roommate, it turns out was like a signed producer at Atlantic. And so we just started hanging out and he was like teaching me how to make some, like make music. And I was, it turns out he didn't know how to DJ actually, which I was like, that's the way simpler skillset. You know, I was like, and so I sat, you know, I taught him like how to DJ and like kind of the basics of DJing principles of it. And then we ended up like making some music together, kind of formed this group together. And he went on to like, he was at my house and like we started creating, you know, we were creating tracks. Really, he was doing 99% of everything.

Yeah.

And he's, his name's Strive. And he ended up making this track at my house that was became the song called Move that they launched with Adam Port. And so after that, like, you know, our kind of little collective had some momentum and we ended up forming a music label around Titanic's End, the art car, and like a record label. And we're just starting to release some tracks now. And so then that brings me to like this track that, you know, worked on called In Your Eyes with my other friend who sings on it called— his name's Major. And I just put that out. Yeah.

Major's done some pretty big stuff as well, right?

Yeah, he's amazing. He's done songs with like Bieber and he's a really incredible artist. You know, those best artists when you like walk in the studio and then you just play like, we played like a few loops and he's like, that one, let's build that out. And then it's like, you know, into, he just like wrote, you know, sang some, a few things. Like, we're like, oh, that's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. And he like, Smoked a blunt, wrote some lyrics, went in the booth, recorded it 3 times. Done. Done. Yeah, exactly.

Oh man, I love it. I love it. How does it feel releasing your first record?

It's fun. You know, I try to stay into the mindset of like, you know, for me, it's like I've been— I think Tech is kind of like this in a little bit where I don't have as much of the artist's mind as like, you know, that artist mindset of like, it has to be perfect. I think the best artists are like, it must be perfect. Like, you know, Strive is like, he's like a perfectionist and really he'll do like 10 versions of something. He's like, I have this philosophy that's probably more like you got to have shots on goal and, you know, you just got to like put out stuff and you have shots on goal and you got to like see what you'll never know what resonates. It's the same in entrepreneurship, you know, like especially with consumer apps. Like, you might have the best vision in the world, but like, you roll it, release it, people, it resonates with the audience, maybe not, you know, you don't know. So the only way that you can be successful, like systematically, is by doing things, having more and more shots on goal and having that like iterations cycle. So for me, it's just like, I have a ton of ideas I've worked on. And I'm like, just gonna just push them out there and see what happens. And yeah, I'd love to.

I really agree. It's actually interesting you said that because I've got a family friend who's quite successful in business as well. And when I was young, when I was 17, 18, I kind of went to him as like a bit of a mentor and kind of helped me kind of get through the mud of starting out as an artist. Although I'd been doing it for years, but he kind of came in with that mindset. And then it's like, okay, you've released one record this year. Well, you've given yourself one chance.

Yeah.

How about if you release 10 times, you've given yourself 10 chances. And then if you release 20 times, well, you've got 20 chances for something to do well. And I think there is that saying, you throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. And there is a level of that in this world, in this game that we're all trying to play. Not even just music, But you've got to fucking try something. And if you're not trying and if you're not putting stuff out, then you're not— I was talking to a friend today. I won't mention his name, but he's in the process. He's extremely talented engineer and he does a lot of teaching people. And I was like, dude, just build a course. People really will buy into this course and you'll be able to make a really good living and you'll be able to be doing what you absolutely love. You don't want to be the touring artist anymore. blah, blah, blah. And I had that conversation with him in January and it's May and he's still tweaking little bits. And I was just like, dude, people aren't buying into you as a video creator. They're buying into you as of your skill. Yeah. They will understand that your videos aren't going to be perfect, but the value that you're giving them in the video is what they are paying for and what they want to hear. So you have to try, you have to put it out. Like, and the perfection thing is, I, I've— we've all got a lot of friends that, that, that are perfectionists, and I think that's the one thing that I think actually stops so many— so, so much great music from being released.

Yeah. And you know, it's like, for your friend, he can always change the videos after he releases it, right? Because like, when you release something you know, it's not like the whole world is going to see it day one. You're going to have to market it. You're going to have to build a reputation. You're going to have to get it out there, figure out how, you know, how to get it to the right people who are curious about and want to learn about, you know, engineering. Right. But so you'll have the chance to change it if you want. You can always improve it, but you just kind of got to get out there and like see what resonates, you know? And I think that's so important in all aspects of life, but especially As an artist, you know, it's like this— the music, it's how you talk about it, how you connect with your audience on social media, all those things.

I want to talk about YouTube slightly with you. Um,

yeah, I love YouTube. Yeah.

Yeah, same. I'm like, I'm one of those guys that I wish I— I wish I made like a YouTube channel. I know I have a YouTube channel. The podcast is on YouTube. If you're listening, go fucking watch on YouTube. It's way better.

Like and subscribe. Smash that like.

But like, I wish I I've always wanted to create a YouTube channel as a quintessential YouTube channel, right?

Yeah.

And kind of not in music.

Yeah, just in life.

Just in life and just outside of it. When did you start? 168,000 subscribers. To be fair, you've got 168 videos as well. That's pretty good. How does one—

Yeah, how did I start?

Especially coming from Twitch, like, it's, it's kind of competing, right?

Yeah. And I mean, well, so, you know, we'd sold Twitch. And the thing about Twitch was like, Twitch is like a job. Like, if you want to be good at Twitch, you need to like do Twitch hours every day.

Besides YouTube.

Yes, for sure. You know, for me, the way I got started on YouTube was I was doing a podcast, like an interview pod, kind of like yours, just an interview podcast, a lot of tech people or some artists or whatever. And I was, I did this like interview for this group, like an online, like an interview for a group of kind of like Gen Z, you know, people in tech or like, you know, creators and stuff. And so one of them was like, hey, I want to help you. You should like, instead of your podcast or edition or whatever, you should have a YouTube where you like tell some of these stories. I was just telling stories like I told you about like my background and, you know, and so I was like, I don't know anything about making a YouTube video or channel or whatever. She was like, hey, if you just buy the camera, this was during COVID She's like, you just buy a camera and turn it on, point it at you. I'll like edit it, post it, everything. And so I was like, all right, I'll try. You know, I'm like very open to obviously new things and just trying different stuff. So it's like, all right. Fuck it, I'll try it. So we made some, I just started like recording myself. You know, they were just like talking head videos where I like tell stories about entrepreneurship or it started to be more like life, you know, advice, life content, you know, things I've learned. And, you know, some of them did all right during COVID and now it's just a hobby. You know, like I love my favorite thing. The thing that resonates to me most is when I meet someone and they tell me like, oh, this video really helped me or You know, I don't drink anymore. I had some videos on quitting drinking and like people have told me like, oh, I quit drinking because I like watched this video, you know, or I, you know, I've got emails like I was gonna quit my startup 'cause I was, you know, depressed and, you know, I wasn't taking care of myself. And then I watched some of your videos and I started doing those things and now I like feel like good again, you know? So just stuff like that really means a lot to me.

It's pretty amazing as well because I think you, you've, you've lived an ex— an exciting life that a lot of people want to know about, right? Um, but like, when, when doing that YouTube channel, is it the same as doing music in a sense of like you don't worry about the views? You don't—

Yeah, I don't. I don't even look at it. I don't even look at how the video— I— it could be better. Like, if I had to do it as a job, like if you, you I have friends who are full-time YouTubers, creators.

Yeah.

It's a, you know, like if you want to be the best, like MrBeast, right? When he does interviews, he talks about how he decodes every second. He's like, if I lose attention, you know, these types of things are going to— he knows exactly what's going to keep attention, what's going to— and so the videos become a certain style because that's what the algorithm kind of pushes you towards if you want to maximize. But, you know, for me, it's like, I just don't, you know, I think that guy is probably always going to be more successful than me on YouTube. I'm just like doing videos I like to do that I think are impactful. There's probably many ways I could make them, not probably, there are many, many ways I can make them better, more engaging, et cetera. There's people who do the same kind of content that I've done that are like, have way more views, but I just, you know, it's not, it's not a job, thank God. It's just like I do it as a passion. And so, yeah. So cool, man.

I think the thing that's really inspiring me about this conversation is that it is just about doing the passion side of things. I think it can get really forgotten in this. And I think so many people listening to this that are kind of starting out can take that away from this conversation of just like, if you love doing it, just do it. Yeah. I think that's the issue with nowadays. Everything has a number to it. Everything has a chart, everything has a ranking, everything has this, everything has that. I generally think if we took all numbers off everything, it would truly make even better art.

100%. Yeah, I totally agree. And I think it's really hard in today's world with social media and, you know, the way everything has views, like you said, like to forget about that or to like step back from that. And I do think that best, the best art is created in that way. It's like, I feel like I keep going back to, you know, Anima and Tale of Us. They like, I'm sure like seeing their events, they were, I'm sure losing money on their events for the first whatever, like long time, you know? Mm-hmm. that I think they were just doing something that they thought was like sick, you know?

Yeah.

And that to me is like really inspiring. It's like when you, like when just like doing something for 10 years or whatever that you were just like into. And then that's what it takes, I think, to be one of those things that becomes great. You know, like Twitch, another example, it's like all my friends at these companies that were like way higher rated than Twitch because VCs or like investors and like the industry at large were like, what is this? But like, we were just into that. You know, we believed in that specific genre thing before it was popular. And then I remember once we sold it, everybody, all these Silicon Valley people were like, oh, we invest in esports. We're like the consumer and esports. I'm like, where the fuck were you like 2 years ago when we actually had a company? It was like, you know, there's only one company that was like a successful esports company, which was Twitch. And then after that, nothing. Because, you know, it's like there's only these once in a generational opportunities.

Of course.

Once in a generation, you know? So yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's, it's, I think it's also, it's like, I think there's, there can be some people that can go like, well, it's easy for both of you to say this when you're living what you're, what you've wanted to do, right? Like in a situation where you're at, where you financially made a shit ton of money doing something that you absolutely love. And also for me, where like, I'm fortunate enough that I do what I do for a living. But it does come from just doing it and carrying on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just have to do what you love. And like, what I can say definitively for myself and in my experience from other people who I know, you know, I know a lot of successful people, like the success part is never what drives the lasting happiness. And I'd be lying if I said I wasn't happy for like a while after selling. Of course, like, you know, you get that dopamine hit, you're like, holy shit, you get the ego boost. Of course that makes you happy. temporarily, but like lasting satisfaction has only ever come from my, from like doing things that intrinsically give me joy and the relationships I have, you know, with my close, the people who I'm close to, you know, and that's, you know, nothing in the outside world has ever provided the lasting happiness. And so I think it's human nature. And I've been in that headspace for so many years where it's like, oh, if I just get this next milestone, That's what's gonna make me finally happy for good. You know, like you, I'm sure you've had that. You know those experiences like doesn't work.

Yeah, dude. Still, still, still do it, and you kind of yeah. It's a battle that I think I'll always take on. But

yeah,

when you sit down and think about it and talk about it and sit outside and assess the world and assess where you're at in life, it's like well, you know what? like it's doing all right.

Um, oh yeah,

dude, I've loved this conversation. I know we could carry on for hours and hours, but I think like ending on that note is, is perfect. Um, yeah, thanks so much for coming on. Really appreciate it. Thanks for taking time out of the day. And, um, thanks for listening as well in the past. Appreciate

it. Of course. Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm such a fan. This is awesome.

How can people follow your music project?

Yeah, so, um, on, uh, Instagram it's @jkis The DJ, and it's JK on Spotify. We have a new song out, In Your Eyes, with Arabic Piano and Major. So, yeah, go check it out.

Sick, man. Really appreciate it. See you soon. And that's a wrap. Thanks for Justin coming on. Really enjoyed it. Hope you all enjoyed that one. Very insightful. Slight different as well. Slight twist from what we're used to. I loved it. I love talking business. I love finding out how people have built things over their lives and turned it into creating music and art. It's amazing. Anyway, without further ado, till next time, people.

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