Episode 6 (Part 1) – “Beyond the Blueprint” with Raul Vasquez

Hello everyone, welcome to the Finding Home podcast. I'm your host, Caleb Panchal. Today's episode is very special. It's part 1 of 2 with my good friend Raul Vasquez.

Raul has many years of ministry experience, from being a young adults pastor to a youth pastor and even a janitor. I'm excited to share with you the conversation that he and I had over many different topics, but the most exciting that came out of nowhere And this part of the episode is church hurt, what to do with it. I know a lot of you will relate and hopefully be impacted, so stay tuned.

I'm glad you're with us.

Well, I'm excited to be here, bro. You are one of my closest friends and my brother, and I, I couldn't be more honored to be on here with you. So thank you for having me, and, uh, yeah, I'm excited.

Yeah, what's crazy is I was thinking about this preparing for this podcast. I think we've been in the same room maybe 5 times.

You know, it really is true. I think it— is it even 5 times?

It might, it might be close to 5 times. Um, yet, and I think this goes off of some of our previous episodes about the power of true community, you're genuinely Very close friends. And, and to say that we've only been in the same room 5 times, that says a lot.

Yeah, I was, I was talking to someone recently about you, and, uh, like you had mentioned, I was like, man, this is one of my best buddies, you know, I would trust them with anything in my life. And, uh, they're like, man, you guys must hang out all the time. And I was like, yeah, in reality it feels like it, you know, it feels like Um, I've known you my entire life. It feels like we hang out all the time, but in reality, it has been only a handful of times that we've been in the same room.

Yeah, you, you would be the only reason I would come back to Florida.

Well, if it's up to me, I would, I would bring you guys back, but I respect your lovely wife way too much to ask that of, of you guys.

Yeah, so What, what our listeners don't know, what I know, is that you have a really rich history of being in ministry. Like, you've probably been in every facet of ministry that there is, um, and now you're not in terms of what we used to define ministry as.

Yeah, yeah, like the vocation.

Yeah, it's an improper definition. So Can you give us just a little bit of history of, you know, your ministry background? And, and, uh, don't, don't spill the beans too quickly because we're going to go down a long road tonight, but just give us some background.

I'm glad you said that because I was like, oh, there's a, a long journey of, of, uh, just ministry. Well, what's funny too is I don't come from, I don't come from a family that is Christian base, that is, you know, faith background, nothing like that. Um, I was essentially radically saved on my deathbed as an atheist running the streets, running amok, and had a radical encounter with Jesus, um, the resurrected Christ, who healed my body. And I was 14 years old, and my life was just transformed in an instant. Now, I was 14 and I was zealous. So for me, I wanted to tell everyone about this Christ that I found, this Messiah, this life— just what had changed my life in a moment. I was like, I have to tell everyone about this. So for me, it's hard to really say, like, if you talk about the vocation of ministry, I came into the vocation of ministry around 19, 20 years old, but I had been serving in a local church faithfully preaching, faithfully discipling, um, from the time I was 14 until— which we'll get into later— um, until about 2000, 2021, sometime in there. And I've done everything from um, youth pastor, young adult pastor, pastor. I've led, um, massive evangelism outreach type things, um, one of them being, uh, they had come to Sarasota and it was called Time to Revive. We had gathered 100, over 100 churches together to just blitz the city for evangelism, blitz the city for discipleship, um, and we saw many powerful things. Um, I've been a part of the House of Prayer movement. Uh, I was a leader in the, in the local House of Prayer here in, in our city. Um, helped get that started, uh, real close to the leadership. Um, I've been trained by essentially almost the, the mainstreams of inner healing. I've, I've done their training. I've, I've done, you know, completed all those things.

Um, So do you Sozo, bro?

Sozo, bro? Yes, yes, I've done Sozo, I've done Elijah House, um, you name it, and I, I have done the program. I've done the, um, the teaching. I've received it, certified in it, if that means anything. But, um, but yeah, so I've, I've done it all, man, all the way down to this. And this is where a lot of people um, didn't have the wilderness that I had, but I was also the janitor, you know. I was the groundskeeper, cleaning toilets and cleaning, you know, cleaning the kids' wing and, and all these things. So, um, yeah, so I've done conferences, I've done it all, man. Done inner healing, done deliverance, um, and all of those things I loved and, or thought I loved at the time, And, uh, that's a little bit of my background. I don't know if you have any specific questions about that.

Yeah, I mean, you said you, you've passed through young adults, pastor, all these things. Which, uh, people group was your least favorite?

Oh, my least favorite? I'm joking, bro.

Don't say that. Don't say that. I'm joking. You don't have to.

My least favorite was, uh, yeah, well, let me say this, like, I will answer the question. This was the, the most diff— the most difficult part for me had to do with youth ministry, but it had nothing to do with the kids. It had everything to do with the parents. Because what happened, what you would see is parents— and I've heard you talk about this, and we've talked about this together— is we have, we have created a culture within the church that they treat the youth pastor like they treat the teachers at school. And they say I don't need to teach my kid to read. I don't need to teach my kid to write. I'm, I'm dropping my kid off essentially for you to do it. And it was extremely difficult because I would try to get these parents to understand, I'm not here to— like, I'm not here to do— pull the weight of your discipleship. I'm here to encourage and strengthen and aid what you're pouring into your kids at home concerning the gospel. Concerning Christianity. So that was probably the most difficult part, is parents, number one, blaming you for their kid, you know, running amok or getting in trouble, or being offended that, um, you know, that their, their kids should be further along in their Christianity than where they're at.

And it's like, it was like we were the geek squad in Best Buy, and they would just—

100%—

their laptop, be like, fix this.

Yeah, that's actually— and I, I, you know, I always felt more like sometimes it was like we're the punching bags, but Geek Squad works.

And what's, what's crazy is I'm thinking about even just the structure of, of that ministry and how it's— it, it isolates different age groups and it's not family-oriented. And that's, that's where I started seeing, um, some red flags on how a proper blueprint would work better in terms of the kingdom. And like, I— what is church supposed to do for the individual? There, there are gifts to the body that, you know, edify, encourage, and we, we know all those gifts. But I don't see it where we're supposed to teach and reveal everything from a pulpit. And that's where I think there's this—

you actually don't find that.

Yeah, you don't. You have this misconception that— and I had so many one-on-one meetings with parents where so-and-so just, just had a really bad day at school, and I want to know why, um, he's doing that and, and what you're going to do about it on Wednesday night. Yeah, yeah.

How are you going to discipline my kid? Or how are you gonna work my kid through the difficulties of, of their teenage emotions? And it's like I thought I'm talking to the parent here, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah, yeah. So I, I completely get that. I didn't think you were going to answer that. I, I was going to guess youth ministry just because it's, it's the step one to the—

well, dude, honestly, the youth ministry was, was not difficult because I'll tell you this, youth are young enough to still subconsciously value community and family, so you don't have like You don't really get the "I'm cooler than everyone" until it's either taught to them or they're a little bit older in high school. You still have that familial dynamic where it's like when, you know, if you— years ago, there was a— I heard a story on National Geographic where these young elephants were like running amok through these villages. They were stampeding. They were going through. And no one could tame them. Everyone was terrified of them, obviously, because even a young elephant is a— it was going to wreak havoc against us humans easily. But what they did was they actually brought in an older elephant, um, into the village. And when those, when those young elephants came in to stampede it and cause destruction again, they saw the older elephant, and the older elephant's demeanor and behavior actually corrected theirs. So it always intrigued me that even in the, even in the animal kingdom they— that unsaid rule of we shouldn't separate the young from the older, we should actually mesh the two together because we need the zeal of the young, but the young with the zeal also need the wisdom of the older. Like, how do you know? To me, I think— I believe that we need both together.

So yeah, it's, it's how we train guardian dogs on the farm.

Really?

An older dog with a younger dog. If you just put a younger dog in there, they're full of zeal, they're going to get out, they're probably going to harm an animal. It's an older dog that will keep the younger one in check, and also it'll bring new life into the older.

Yeah, yeah, I've seen that. I've, I was raised with dogs and we always had, you know, when one's about to go, you bring a puppy in and all of a sudden that one that's like blind, deaf, and crazy all of a sudden has new life and is running around and can see and hear all of a sudden.

Yeah. So I'm, I'm looking at, you know, there's a lot to unpack in terms of, of the history. Um, you've, you've walked through a lot of betrayal, you've walked through a lot of, um, backstabbing in the church, and we're not here to, you know, cast stones or, or blame. I, I want to know kind of internally what that felt like and you know, where you're at now, there was a shift that happened at some point to where you either heard a whisper from Yahweh or you saw so many red flags to where you needed to make some changes. I would like to hear more about, about those stories because those stories are pretty powerful. Um, I know that there was a gift on you to be able to, um, gather, especially there was a season where you were gathering a lot of young adults and moving, and you felt like moved to do house churches and house meetings. Can you go on, uh, and talk about that and what was going on with that and kind of the repercussions for that?

And yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely, man. It's a good question. Um, Yes. So at that particular time, I was a part of— I had— let me give a little bit of a backdrop. So I, I'm from Sarasota, which is where I'm at now, and I had moved to Central Florida. And when I had moved to Central Florida, um, was part of a, a large church and, um, very much enjoyed gathering people and conference, you know, conferences. Did the local church thing mixed with, with conferences, and it seemed to work well for that community. But for me, I don't know if it's because of the way that the background and lifestyle that I came from, that was a tight, close-knit community. But for me, the conference thing, for me, the just go to church on Sunday, go to church on Wednesday, it didn't do anything for me. Um, and I'd always had this ache in my heart of, if Christianity and Jesus is absolutely the truth and reality of the fullness of humanity, why does it feel so hard to just have community? Why do we have to have these big events or these big things in order to actually get people together? And so, um, my other, uh, my two closest friends are you and, um, another brother named Adam who everyone thinks you're brothers with. It's hilarious. Um, and he was actually living in the same city with me at the time, and we were going into summertime during this season, and I was just praying and asking the Lord, like, Father, I feel that we're to do something different. I was running a young adult ministry. Um, it was pretty— we're pretty well known in the area. We're well connected to the, the, um, local Bible college there. And I just felt like, man, we just need to do something different. And when I was in my quiet place and just sitting with Jesus I felt like Yahweh told me to, uh, the next step for that community was you needed— I needed to open up my home and gather people around a table called family, is what I heard. And, um, and I didn't know what that looked like. I hadn't— I had never seen it before as far as ministry, um, because again, most of the time when we think ministry, we think of pulpit. When we say ministry, we think of church. Um, you don't think most ministers look at their home as, I need to keep people out of my home because that is my peace, that is my sanctity, that, you know, I have my kids here. And I just really felt, you know, the winds of Yahweh telling me, no, this is what you need to do. And so I proposed it to my leaders at the time, and, um, they said it was fine, um, for the time being because At the time, they thought it was just for the summer, which I did too. And we started gathering people in this single-family home, 4-bedroom, 2-bath, and we would gather over 100 people. I mean, it just started multiplying, and people were traveling. We had people traveling from— we were in Central Florida. We had people coming from Tampa, Orlando, Brandon, Sarasota, Palmetto. Just come to, come to a house because essentially all we were doing was we would gather to worship and pray. And me, me and my, um, my brother Adam, anyone knew that, anyone that was new that came into these gatherings, we would prophesy and pray for them. Well, then healing breaks out, all these things begin to happen, and even we just started getting all these— we started getting pastors that, um, on a Thursday night, you know, they would hear about it and we would get leaders and pastors from different areas that would come in just to be refreshed. And, and, um, it was just a unique, unique, um, season in life. Like, my— I remember I would put— I would put my son Nash down, we'd have prayer, and then the meeting would start, and I would put my son Nash down to sleep in his room, and we had full, like, worship band. Like, we had a key— or we had keys, uh, guitar, speaker, microphone, everything, so that everyone could— I don't know why we thought they couldn't clearly hear us in a living room, but it, it worked. And I remember my son, even my daughter Amaya at the time, if, if she went to bed, she would be sound asleep, and we'd have these just rocking meetings where people were getting healed, people were God was revealing His heart to people, and people were receiving the Holy Spirit or feeling like they went through deliverance or got some sort of breakthrough in their heart from past traumas and past pain. And it was just this thing that was just rolling and going. And then there were some things, there were some things that began to get whispered into the leaders' ears that I found out later that made them uncomfortable with us gathering in our home. And, um, one of them being, um, one of them being that the leaders were worried that I was gonna branch off from the ministry and start my own church because it was far enough away from the church that it could be considered separate. But they were worried that if I left, that it would cause a church split, is what I found out later. So They don't tell me this. They bring me into a meeting, and I'm still friends with these leaders, so there's no bad blood or there's no resentment, anything like that. But they call me into this meeting, and they tell me that I need to end these things. And I tell them, but I feel like Yahweh has told me to do this. He's told me that what this next generation needs, the next generation of emerging leaders, is they've been given enough preaching, they've been given enough stages, but they don't know what it means to cultivate family. They don't know what it means to cultivate just this, a lifestyle of, um, of union. You know, that's— that to me, that's what it was, was this union, that there is no difference, there is no, uh, differentiation between what we call the stage or the gifting and just doing life together. And they pressed me hard and said, no, come back to the church. And so we, we shifted it back to the church. And Caleb, I kid you not, we went from like over gathering over 100 kids, 150— not kids because, you know, they're adults— but literally 20, 25 just gone. And from there, it really, it really hurt me. It really wounded me because I didn't care about the number that we were gathering. I didn't care about the numerics. I, I cared because the only thing I've ever known in the kingdom— I came into the kingdom because I encountered a resurrected Christ. I heard the voice that awakened me, and I knew that the same voice that I heard to to, to do this with the generation. I, I knew it was the same voice, and my heart was broken because I was like, but, but this is what they need, and this is what Yahweh has said. And obviously Yahweh is doing something. Holy Spirit is blowing through these meetings. But it became church politics that was like, no, we, we can't do this, we're not comfortable with it. There was some other things behind the scenes. The church was going through a big transition. And I honestly, looking back on a, on a heart level, on an earth, on an earth level, it made sense. They wanted to clamp down on all things that were like kind of extra while the church was— because the church was about to step into a massive transition. And it made sense to try to have feel a sense of control while everything was moving. I don't mean control in a negative sense. I mean, kind of make sure they had a footing for what was about to come. But man, it broke my heart. It broke my heart.

I know. And I, I've, I've had to allow Yahweh to, to teach me these things about past leadership that— I mean, we could say there were— you, you were mishandled. There were situations that were mishandled. But then Yahweh reveals, like, in their heart they think that that was the right thing to do.

100%. And that's why I couldn't fault them. You know what I'm saying? Like, I could disagree and say I wouldn't do it that way. But I also don't know what they're looking at and they're facing on the flip side. You know what I'm saying? It's easy to say, well, you're just wrong, black and white, no gray area. It's just truth. And it's like, yeah, but they also have a responsibility as leaders to a body. And whether I— and, and this is where it gets hairy, you know, depending on who you talk to about honoring leadership, is at the end of the day, and this is the big, big pillar in my heart and a big one in yours and your families is— and it's, I think this is one of the big things that connects us, is that, that beauty of honor. Like, I may not understand it. It's the same thing what sent you into the wilderness. Yahweh, I don't understand what you're saying. I don't even understand seeing it with my own eyes what you're doing, but I honor what I'm hearing, you know what I'm saying? And a lot of people disagreed with you, but you had to follow the voice. And so at the end of the day, that's why there's no hard feelings in my heart. Was it hard? Did it hurt? Yes. But it's like they had to also follow what they heard. And that's the unique thing about the body of Christ.

Yeah, I, I remember, you know, when I was in ministry, I was under a pastor that really ruled on fear. Yep. And, you know, being in staff meetings, you were— they wanted to impose that they were watching you. Don't say anything stupid. Don't do anything outside of the rules. Yep. I remember even having to submit my sermons, everything that I would preach word for word. Couldn't do bullet points, it was word for word. And walking—

he just wanted that glory, man, all that revvy.

It was, it was, it was a sense of control. Yep. And it, it really affected me negatively, um, for a long time. And you, you can kind of slap on like church hurt or whatever it is, but Yahweh kind of flipped that And like we were talking about, he genuinely thought that that was what leaders did. So yeah, he was paying attention to me. It's easy to not even pay attention.

Yeah.

So he was, he was putting effort into building me up as a leader because I'm pretty sure that's what his leaders did to him.

Mhm.

Even though it's a cycle of, of dysfunction. And it's not in the blueprint of the Bible, there's still this element of honor there.

Hey everyone, Caleb Panchaw again. I wanted to pause this episode and invite you into our movement, the Five for Five. Now what is the Five for Five?

Very simple, very easy, and it's absolutely free, and you can help us out a ton.

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To where now I don't have to walk with this offense or this bitterness towards him, and it affects my connection to Yahweh. Because it will. I mean, absolutely. I think there will be people listening to this that, that are holding grudges even now. Like, church hurt, you know, it's becoming a, a saying that's made fun of, like, oh, everybody— yeah, people just hurt people. I mean, that's just— that's going to happen. It's going to happen again. Unfortunately, but I think people are holding on to betrayal and holding on to, um, these, these wounds that they acquired during their journey, and they're missing the point of healing between them and Yahweh because bitterness is the wedge. And that's, see, that's why you get in conversations with people and they just want to tell you about what happened. That's all they want to focus on. And then there's— there's— they're not leaving room for Yahweh to, to, to come and to show them this is how you can be a whole person where offense doesn't even exist.

And that's so good, dude. I, I couldn't agree more. And for me, one of the most One of the most rewarding things that Yahweh taught me from 2015 to even up until now, so for 10 years, is— and it hap— it started before that, but it really was on the forefront of my mind— is that when things go on with whether it's the church, whether it's friendship circle, whatever, I have no right, or I have no— I shouldn't say no right, I have no obligation for when people come to me and say, hey, I know you know what's going on. And really what they're doing is they're fishing to hook you to their own offense as well. I know this leader has done this to you, let me pull you in close to my hurt, and like, let's have this Let's have this bondage club of, of just going back and forth. And nothing killed that faster, and nothing expedited my process more effectively than learning to be silent with those things. Now, obviously, I had close people in my life that I could confide in, like you, like Adam, uh, Doyle Bradford, people that are deeply connected to me as a person, know my kids, know me. This wasn't just gathering people, but I found that when people would come to me and say, hey, what do you think about this because I'm hurt about so-and-so and this family, all these things, you name it, A, B, and C, people didn't like it when I would say, well, what's Yahweh telling you? What do you feel? Like, How much time have you spent actually sitting and contemplating these things? Because we're taught to contemplate scripture, we're taught to contemplate prophetic words and to pray any of these things, but you don't hear much teaching or much encouragement of that offense you have. Why don't you take it to the secret place? Why don't you take it into that place of the wilderness and, like Ezekiel, and sit by the river and just be undone by God? Because I think what most people call prayer is us twisting God's arm to get our will done. And in reality, what authentic prayer is, is healing my heart to change it to the point to where it's transformed and looks more like Yahweh, looks more like Christ, looks more like the Holy Spirit. And nothing would disarm someone fast enough that wants to talk gossip or backbiting or murmuring faster than, than not saying anything at all, or encouraging them to actually take it to Yahweh.

Well, it's easier to develop war plans than restoration plans. So it's when you go through something like that, like, your immediate reaction is, I want to blow the place up.

Yep.

And it's easy to do that.

That is, dude, that's more natural to me than anything. Like I am a— I do my best to live not as a Christian, but a, a son of Yahweh and a follower of Jesus. Because I think Christian can mean so many things— nationalistic— I can— it can go in so many different ways. But for me, it's like, no, no, I, I want my life to mirror, to, to encourage, to, to be an encouragement to creation that the sons are being revealed. Mhm.

And the opposite of destruction is, is being able to create.

Yeah.

And the only way— and this is kind of ties this in— the only way to create is to be connected to the one that creates. So when you're going through the woundedness or the bitterness, or you've been betrayed, or you have a story like like everyone could have a story about what they went through in church, um, with a group of people or, or a leader. You have an opportunity when that happens and you're feeling that it's heavy. I'm not trying to, to put that under the rug and say those feelings don't matter, but instead of, instead of making our war plans— because as a human being, we are completely capable of blowing the house up. Yeah. Instead of going that way, as you said, submitting it into the place of prayer to where I'm not coming to you telling you and twisting your arm on what I think you should do. I'm reminded of, um, The Shack and— yeah, man, I want you to hurt him. I don't want to forget. I want— I want— he hurt me. I want you to hurt him. I want to twist your arm and I want you to go to the war, uh, battle lines for me.

Yep.

Instead of doing that, we submit our feelings to the feet of Yahweh, and through that, he can show you how to create. So, and that creation is, is, it's the unveiling of a true son. It's the unveiling of your inner being, that you weren't created to even be offended in the first place.

No, man. Dude, it's so good because I think, you know, so many times I, I have to remind myself that, as Paul says in Corinthians, that I, I have been made a new creation in order that I would be the message of reconciliation. And like you said, it's so much easier, it's so much easier to want to blow things up because it's faster to do— like, it's, it's a quicker process to ruin a life than it is to look at a life heading to ruin. Say, say worst case scenario, it's easier to blow a life up that's heading to ruin rather than get down with them and begin to rebuild. You know what I'm saying? Like, we forget that violence begets violence. So when you sow that into a situation, all that's gonna get— like, I think it's even in James, or maybe Paul said it, like, when you conceive, when you conceive sin, like, it will grow to full maturity into where it'll give birth to death. And we forget these things. And so, and, and like going back to your, your story of the pastor that wanted to see, you know, all the notes and all the jots and tittles and everything that you were doing, he did that because he was— that was taught to him. He learned that behavior. And what did that do to you, man? By God's grace, it didn't keep you from doing what you needed to do, but it could be a great hindrance. And we have all— we have, we have so many people that are We forget that the power of the Spirit lives in us in order that we can not only speak life but bring forth life. Like, this was also the power in the very beginning when Yahweh kissed life into Adam, and then he began to name, you know what I'm saying? He began to name the creatures. He began to name the animals because we have a great power to— we have a power to identify things, we have a power to set things into motion, and we have a power to actually bring forth life where it may look like life is lost.

This is—

I'm gonna try to will us to draw us back in. This is going to happen a lot tonight.

Yeah, my bad.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, this is good. This is really, really good. Um, but I want to— I want to come back to you know, what you went through in terms of— you honored the leadership of the house during that time. I should come back. I should stop having these, these house churches. But, but there, there has to be this feeling in your gut that there's got to be more than what I'm a part of. Like, there's got to be more than this I would say religion because we know what it is, but yeah, Tom, you don't really know. It just seems like, man, I, I just feel like there's, there's wonder and adventure and relationship. And all down the road you start seeing these, these red flags. You start feeling something that's really deep within the soul. Um, so I guess, I guess the question for you is, what were some of those things that they just didn't really align. And what I mean by align is it was so heavy where you thought like, maybe Yahweh's inviting me to do something else.

That's a great— so I would love to say that when the shift— when I honored the leaders and the shift happened back to kind of business as usual, I would love to say that all of a sudden It was like I needed to make a shift. In reality, what happened was this: I'mma honor my leaders, and maybe, maybe by honoring them and serving them the way that they want, that they feel that is proper to be served, maybe then we can kind of win the trust to then gain it back, not realizing that most of the time that doesn't work. And so when I began to kind of go back through the motions— now mind you, outside of the church, deep community was there for me, as even within those groups, the leaders and, uh, my leadership within the young adults, the community that we had within the young adults, it was rich, it was strong. But then I began to be discontented, and I began to honestly be depressed because I'm like, dude, I'm waking up, I'm going to clean the church, I'm going to lead prayer meeting, I'm going to get in these meetings preach, pray, prophesy, open service, close service. I mean, it then began to kind of just feel like something I was doing. It became a vocation rather than a call type of deal. And I remember sitting in the church office, and I remember specifically everyone had went home. It was a Thursday night. Which is when the young adults would meet, and I shut all the lights off and I sat under my desk. I wasn't hiding, I just was like, I need to like get alone. And I shut all the lights off and I began to talk to Yahweh, and I began to tell him, Father, there's nothing more I want to do than to do what I feel that you've called me to do. I want, I want authentic community. I want— and I began to picture in my head all the passages through the book of Acts, and I began to pray through what I could remember off the top of my head concerning the way that the book of Acts community was, was not just shaped, but the way that they functioned. And I would— I began praying through those things, and Yahweh stopped me. Holy Spirit said I just felt it in my heart so deeply. Holy Spirit said it's illegal to pray for— it is illegal to pray for the Book of Acts community without having the Book of Acts, um, structure, like the way that they did community themselves. Like, you cannot cry out for revival if you don't have the foundation that which you find in the Book of Acts. And so that sent me on a journey of what does that look like? Well, that looks like house to house. That looks like being together, life on life discipleship, being in people's homes, knowing their children, knowing their family. Like, it's not enough to preach a message. It's not enough to lead a group of discipleship. I need to know what's hurting Caleb. Caleb needs to know what's hurting me. Now, obviously, boundaries are important, all those things. Um, but that was a real shift for me because I'm like, I'm not— I don't see that. I'm not seeing that. We have great— we have big meetings, we have big gatherings, but no one actually knows each other. And we're crying out for God to pour out his Spirit, but there's no, no infrastructure to really hold it. And I'm talking at the body of Christ at large, not just this specific season.

Yeah, um, it's a lot. We'll unpack that. Um, it reminds me, and it's a, it's an episode, previous episode, that would, should already be on the platform, just talking about true community and what that looks like and how there are pieces of that mixture that we are afraid to to have, like, vulnerability. Yeah, being able to be wounded. I mean, one of the key components of having true fellowship with one another is being exposed and the— and giving the ability to be wounded and to wound and to wound and to wound each other.

Mhm.

And to know that you have a sword and I have a blind spot where I'm not covered and to show you that.

Yep.

There's, there's a lot of things I think people are, are afraid to, to really go into because that culture is not really well received even in westernized Christianity. I think for people like you and I, um, and I don't want to speak for you, I can speak for me. I can, I can show all of my failure in terms of my journey through ministry, there was this— there was this drive from ambition, and there was this really distorted theology where— because I can remember some really high moments in ministry, and the only—

you want to get deep, we can get deep on it.

The only—

the only real reason I, I used to say, oh, that was a good moment in ministry, is because in terms of momentum in terms of numbers, in terms of, you know, emotional response. I checked all those boxes.

So, oh, emotional response is the barometer of success.

And in my mind, okay, I am earning my spot at the table that Yahweh has set for me. And that's such a hard thing to unlearn. Because in terms of union, in terms of the Trinitarian fellowship, this is the place that was given.

Yep. Not earned.

And honestly, man, like, I would love— I, I can't be 100% transparent with you and say that I knew that until even a year ago. There was still this something in me that said I needed to be able to perform well. I mean, saying out loud, it's like, oh, how dare you? I'm talking about the inner parts of me that were still not unraveled yet, still holding on to some type of self-righteousness or self-dignity even. And I always would pray like, why did David dance the way that he danced? It was more than extravagant worship because McCall makes a very important statement that a king doesn't act this way.

Yep.

A king doesn't perform this way. I think David was this outward expression of, my spot was given to me. There's nothing that I can do to earn my royalty. I am already in this with him. So this is not a question, I just, I'd like to hear your thoughts on it. A big thing for me in walking out of westernized religion is unlearning that my ambition is probably the most lethal thing that I have, and that I have to understand that I've been given a place in this circle dance. I am not trying to earn my way into that movement. It's not by venom. It's not by emotional response. And I— you can go anywhere with him without having results-oriented data that proves that you're going anywhere. Does that make sense?

100%. It does make sense. Um, you said— you said something very interesting. You said it took you time to actually bring those things to voice, those— that ambition of, man, I was super ambitious, man. These, like, this is what the barometer of my success or my placement to the Father, my placement in ministry, whatever. Um, I remember I had totally forgot about this, bro. And when I, when I was sent to that church by Yahweh. Before I left, he told me something very specific. When I was sent to that season, Yahweh said, I'm sending you to crucify every bit of your ambition, every bit of your gifting, and every bit of your natural charisma. And none of those, like, in themselves, those things are not bad. But when you begin to mix your identity, your security, and your relationship to Yahweh off of those things, now they're deadly and poisonous, lethal, right? And so I come out of the season, I'm not even thinking about it. I'm processing the whiplash and whirlwind that comes— came out of it. And now I'm reflecting back, and instead of saying, God, how did this happen? I'm going, Yahweh, I thank you because you, you were doing a work. You were delivering me. We had these explosions of meetings. We had these explosions of healing and prophecy and influence and all these things. And you crushed me by, by allowing men to remove it. You know what I'm saying? So then I looked back and go Oh man, now I'm realizing I don't have to defend my place at the table. I'm given a seat and I just need to be seated at rest. And as long as I'm seated at rest, I can never come out of that place anyways. And that's where beloved identity, that's where, um, you know, things like that that are deep within who I am as a son Um, where those things became— began to really get solidified.

Yeah, and it leads to, you know, the next topic I want to talk about, and that's we, we relate so much to one another's stories, and one of them that's almost, almost identical is towards the end of our ministry journey, there's almost this opportunity for us to really take off. Yeah, in terms of fame, in terms of opportunity. And you go through all this and you feel really lonely. You're having, you know, the services at your house and things are moving along, and you just wish, man, I wish I had a father. I wish I had somebody that would—

so that was my cry through this whole thing.

Yeah, see, and to encourage me and to put me in places I'm supposed to be, like, where's my tribe? And then this just about happens towards the end but something just doesn't quite feel right. And it's almost what you're saying— there's, there's, there's things in us that have attached themselves to us and to our identity and how we define ourselves. Ultimately, it defines our relationship with Yahweh, and he will make war over that. He will make violent war over that. I want to talk about the cost of walking away. I want to talk about what it really feels like to have those things dealt with. Even though we can sit here now and say, you know, I would go over that warfare again if ambition is dealt with and it is gone, because there's a better way. It's not just, you know, this is unhealthy, this is lethal. What kind of tips the scale is there's, there's a better path But to get there, I don't know about you, for me, I've— I lost my person, I lost my community overnight. I lost my personality. I didn't know how to talk. I couldn't put sentences together. And I remember trying to make it work. I remember going to a church after I knew I was called to, to leave, uh, and to have that one-on-one time with Yahweh to really deal with some things. I remember kind of going against that going to churches and preaching, and worst messages of my life. I mean, I would get stuck. I would like, what is going on? Like, you go from speaking— what we were doing, School of Ministry at the time. I mean, I was speaking 6 times a week, 6, 7 times.

Yeah.

I mean, I was comfortable behind them. I was getting to where I wouldn't, I wouldn't write notes. I mean, I would just flow, and, and God was gracious to me to meet me there. And then you go to where like I forgot even how to communicate. I forgot how to have a friend. I forgot how to, you know, not be socially awkward, you know?

Like, yeah, yeah, because that's the way the prophetic, man. The more socially awkward you are, the more grounded and mature you are in the prophetic, man.

I, I, uh, I remember I could count maybe 20 to 30 times I told the cashier I love them. Because I just was so socially awkward. Like, hey, have a good day. All right, love you. I'm like, what in the world did I just say? It was one of those moments where I was just completely unraveled, and that was the scary part. And I want to put some focus on this because I truly believe this is where people are at. This is the cost of walking away, being in a place that's not familiar, because you've spent your whole ministry life looking at a model that you think you're supposed to go after, and then you, you have this abrupt exit. Talk about what it— because I, I want you to be honest, man. Um, the pain— I mean, it's painful. It's painful to deal with some of these things. And now that we know the reward of it, it's worth it. But I, I still want to hit on, you know, especially the internal, like, grief and questioning, like with my kids? Like, have I ruined their lives by doing this?

It's an honest question.

Yeah, things like that.

Yeah, yeah. So let me, let me give a little bit of a backdrop because I don't want— I just want to give some context to the question of the cost. So finishing out that season and feel that the Lord is calling me to something different, to a different season, a different community, a different location, because it just felt like this is not going to happen here, which was fine. And all the while, in the back of my head, you have all the prophecies that you've been given. You know, for me, it was things like everything from— if I name the prophets people would know their name and, and they're valid to a lot of people. But things like—

can I get your prophetic word?

What's that?

Can I guess?

Yeah, guess. Give me one.

You're a voice crying out in the wilderness.

100%. That was one of them. Then it was things like, um, like front article newspaper things like that, revival, um, I had a mantle from different leading ministers that I respected, you know, things like that, that, uh, traveled the world, and Voice of Awakening, all these, you know, all these different things that I believe the people that prophesied them, most of them were, um, genuine in the prophecy, genuine in what they felt that they saw in my life. I'm not negating that.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so when you go into a season of transition, I was always taught to lean back into those prophecies. You know, they would say things like, you know, just like Paul told Timothy, make war with those prophecies. That's true warfare, is to pray into those promises that Yahweh has given you, which I don't have a problem with that. Um, and so these things began began to come to the forefront of my mind. And as I'm processing the transition, I'm thinking about these things, or people are even reminding me of these things. And then I started getting offers. I was, I was offered, um, 4 different leadership positions in 4 different states, uh, leading large communities. One of them was a, was a massive opportunity to— and this is— this one was tricky because the individual said, I want to pay you X amount of dollars, which to me at the time was a large amount of money, to build and oversee what you want to do. If you want to do the house, house church thing, I want you to do it. We will fund it. And I will pay you to discipleship and, and give vision to what you want to do. And you can travel anytime you need to leave, you can leave.

Well, Raul, that— a lot of people be like, that's an open door that the Lord opened up.

Well, bro, that's exactly, that's exactly what everyone was telling me was all of the promises that God has given you, this is it, this is your moment. And the people began to say things like You have served in the wilderness. Now you're being given your inheritance, right? And I'm looking at these opportunities, and you're about to hit this. I, I am thrilled. I'm, I'm honored. I'm excited. And then I begin to— I, I had this glimmer of wisdom because I don't claim to be a man of that much wisdom. I said, let me visit these places. So I begin to visit these places and, um, great communities to church standards. Think, you know, kids' church is rolling, you know, messages are going, Wednesday night gatherings. But I feel discontented. And it made no sense because every, every community that I went to visit and that I went to, to kind of feel out Everyone was like, you must be here because you're coming into leadership because they've been talking about transition. We know who you are. We know, we, you know, we know about you. You must be a part of this community. And people are welcoming us in. People are wanting to like meet with us and hang out with us. And all of a sudden you start to feel this thing come up in you like, oh man, I feel important. I feel important. But underneath it all, Yahweh's going, yeah, but what are you feeling? What's really like— if you were to step aside from how they're making you feel, how do you feel instinctively in your heart? Because again, for me, it goes back to the very beginning, is I've— I came into the kingdom because of a real encounter with Christ. So someone can prophesy to me, someone can promise me things, But at the end of the day, if I don't feel Yahweh beckoning me in my heart to do something, I'm not going to move. At least I do my best not to move. And so I'm now wrestling, Caleb. I'm now going, this is opportunities. These are 4 opportunities that most people don't get one in their entire life. And so I come back home to where I was living at the time. And I'm conflicted, and I'm sitting with Big Brother, and, and Jesus says, why are you conflicted? I said, well, because these are great opportunities and I feel peace about none of them, so I feel conflicted. He said, no, no, you feel conflicted because you know that I'm not calling you to any of them, but you really want them because they look great. They feel great, they praise you well, and it looks really good. I said, but what do I do? These line up with the prophecies. And Jesus literally told me, bro, I came to you not because of prophecies You encountered me because I love you and I want you to be with me. Will you just be with me? And all of a sudden, it was— all of a sudden, reality set in and my heart broke. I said, man, I, I came into this, Jesus. Because I met you and I know you. I didn't come into this because of a ministry. I didn't come in this because of a gifting. I came in this because I would sit and be with you and be with, with Yahweh and be with the Spirit like I'm talking with a friend. I don't care what the opportunity is, I just want to sit with you. And if for me sitting with you is literally sitting with you then let's do it. And I said no to all those things. And all of a sudden, people are telling me, you're crazy, you missed your call, you forfeited your inheritance. Now you've opened up you and your family and your children to demonic warfare because now you don't have a— now you don't have the covering. Um, I mean, you name it and I heard it. All of a sudden, the people— and this is what I learned— the people that build your platforms will also be the people that build your gallows. And I don't blame them, because again, when you're doing as much ministry as we were doing, it seems that the next proper step is up. And because we think, we think glory to glory is steps moving up, but that's not always the case in the kingdom. In order to go up, oftentimes you come down. Oftentimes you're the seed planted. Oftentimes I realized that my personal call was very much just that, a personal call. And if I would have said yes to those things, I realize now that I may have lost my son, may have lost my daughter in the minutia of religion rather than cultivate them in the place of encounter, in the place of understanding the heart of Yahweh.

Hey everyone, Caleb Panchaw again. I wanted to pause this episode and invite you into our movement, the Five for Five. Now, what is the Five for Five?

Very simple, very easy, and it's absolutely free, and you can help us out a ton.

For the next 5 minutes, I want you to take 5 people and send this episode to them. If you have people on your heart that know will be affected and relate by this episode, please send it to them. Again, Push pause, take 5 minutes, send it to 5 people. This is the 5 for 5. I'm Caleb Henshaw with the Wild Country, and we thank you so much for the support.

Yeah, I, I'm thinking about, you know, I went into this world of, of agriculture and it was very intentional that Yahweh led me through that, especially in terms of what we would call permanent permaculture. It's a permanent culture. It's an ecosystem that continues to add back and get better because of perfect design. And I'm thinking about our specific personal calls in terms of that design, in terms of a better design. If you're so focused on the— that one thing. You look at agriculture, a one-crop farm is a monoculture. It's a, it's a cornfield, it's a lavender field, it's, it's something that you're, you're doing that's not representing the diversity of nature. So what happens in those spaces is everything around it suffers. Because it's confused. It's confused that it has to work extra hard or do things that it doesn't normally do or, or wasn't created to do to keep that field alive. And I'm going to land the plane on this thought here. What I found that was so beautiful was when I quit listening to my own song. I could hear his song. I could hear the song that made creation dance. And I want to tell you, like, that's— that is the beautiful swirl of this union. And we have so settled just to hear our own tune. And if we could have the courage— and I believe you're, you're really giving people courage to make the same decisions, to deal with this, and, and to, and to let the pain happen. It's got to happen. There's things that have to be ripped away. But if you have the courage, I promise you, in the morning you're going to hear the song. You're going to hear the song of the Lord. You're going to hear how you're a part of a perfect design, and that it's not your call, it is the calling. Yeah, it is. It is the song to the bride. It is the Song of Songs. It's, it's, it's what we were made to do. It's actually what we were made to enjoy. And if anything happens outside of that plan, just like a monoculture, it is unnatural, and you have to behave in a way that you were never created to behave. To keep it alive.

Hey everyone, Caleb Hanshaw. Uh, thank you for joining us for the first part of this 2-episode series with Raul Vasquez. Hopefully it impacted you and blessed you, and if it did, just wait, episode 2 is even deeper. So I can't wait to share that with you. Until then, join in with this 5 for 5 movement with us. Take the next 5 minutes and think of 5 people that you know that need to hear this message. Again, I'm Caleb Henshaw with The Wild Country. Thank you for listening. See you next time.

In the darkest of my heart, I still cling to you.