Episode 6 (Part 2) – “Healing Found in Divine Fellowship” with Raul Vasquez

There's things that have to be ripped away, but if you have the courage, I promise you, in the morning you're going to hear the song. You're going to hear the song of the Lord. You're going to hear how you're a part of a perfect design, and that it's not your call, it is the call. Yeah, it is. It is the song to the bride. It is the Song of Songs. It's, it's, it's what we were made to do. It's actually what we were made to enjoy. And if anything anything happens outside of that plan, just like a monoculture, it is unnatural and you have to behave in a way that you were never created to behave to keep it alive. Hey everyone, Caleb Hanchall here, the Finding Home Podcast. Welcome back to a good conversation I had with my friend Raul Vasquez. This is part 2 of a 2-part series. Hope you enjoy it. Let's jump in.

Bro, you said it. When you tying that to the system, or what we call religion, you have to operate in an unnatural way of your— because this is something that I've been, no, mulling over, and you can cut this out or you can keep this in, it doesn't bother me. Um, but I feel like for too long we have supported narcissistic people and called it leadership, and we've masked codependency and call it discipleship. And what we have done is exactly what you're saying, is that we allow one leader or one crop to grow, and then all of a sudden the entire body or the entire community around it has to cater to that one crop and then causes them to be pulled out of their natural state in which they were called and created to function and move and have their being in God. Because you have one man or one woman that builds a culture, and you either fit that mold and fit that culture, fit that lingo, fit whatever, down to the dress, down to the hair, whatever, down to the lingo. And if you don't fit it then you're, you're shunted off. So you either conform to it or you're rejected from it.

Yeah. And whoever—

it looked like you wanted to say something.

Whoever you submit to, you become pregnant with that culture. Yeah, no way around it.

Yeah. And I, and, and I think that is a beautiful, beautiful thing that Yahweh gives us in order to have good community. But we have to be wise on who we, you know, give the— give that place to.

Is there a way that we're, we're not submitting to one person but we're submitting to the community of people that God has put?

100%. I, I think— I, I truly believe that that's, that's the only real way, is because when you submit when you submit to one person, one leader, you're ultimately submitting to one way. Because, um, I used to use this analogy, I used to use this analogy a lot, and I still think it rings true, is the, the reason we have mirrors in our house and the reason we have mirrors in society is because we cannot see ourselves. And in life, we need to be able to see ourselves. And if, if you went through life without seeing yourself, you wouldn't know you're aging. You wouldn't know if there's a blemish. You wouldn't know if there's issues by looking at yourself. And oftentimes, friends and community become the mirrors in which reflect us back to ourselves. So we need, we need authentic community around us that can show us the blemishes, show us the aging, show us the blind spots. We, we need that in order to grow. But oftentimes it's inverted. Oftentimes we look at leaders and we say they are the mirror for us. They're the mirror for us to look into in order for them to call out our blemishes, in order for us to then look like them. You know, we use passages like as follow me as I follow Christ, or imitate me as I imitate Christ, which again, those things aren't necessarily evil, but those things are always beneficial, you know what I'm saying? Because you take on— and there's so much depth to this because obviously when you, when you mimic someone or you imitate them, it's because you honor them and you love them. And that's fine and that's okay, but we also have to live in reality that says, I love you and I'll take what's great from you, but I also won't be blind. And that's a big thing. I won't be blind to those weak spots. Like, I need Caleb in my life, I need Adam in my life, I need Doyle, I need, you know, go down the list. I need those people that think different, that approach things differently, because one way isn't always going to work.

Right. The scripture you talked about with, with Paul's, you follow me as I follow Christ. I was thinking about an older movie, and I can't remember the name of it, but the father, um, was getting followed by the son, and the son said, I want to follow you, Papa. He said, Papa. And the, the father in the movie said, you can follow me, but I'm going home. And it, it made me think of that because the, the weight of that statement wasn't put on his ability to lead. The weight was put on the place they were going. So I'm hearing Paul talk about, you know, follow me as I follow Christ. I don't think the weight of that statement is, look how great I am as a leader. I'm just like, if you're going to follow me, I'm trying my— I'm, I'm going after Jesus. Like Jesus is, is home. That is the home. Um, and that is a hard thing to accept when ambition is present. That's the most painful part, is because you, you get your gratification from, you know, the words that you give or the impact that you put on a person. Again, it's this false realization of who you are, uh, in Yahweh. Like what Jesus, what big brother said to you, like, I just want to be with you, just be with me. Like that, that doesn't speak to who you are as a preacher, that doesn't speak to who you are as a Sozo guy, as Mr. Sozo.

No, not Mr.

Speaks to relationship. It speaks to, you know, vulnerability. Um, so I'll say that, and I want to kind of move along to the next step for you, is that you were led to do a church plant in Sarasota. You were doing like a house church plant, and there were some beautiful things that happened during that time. Um, it's on the end of people saying that you missed your calling and you, you missed your opportunity. It's like, why would you get the Great Value version, you know, when you could have gone here? And now you've started your own thing in Sarasota. Um, talk to us about that time of your life and what were some of the things that you really learned, uh, because I— that was probably one of the most hard but yet fulfilling times of your life in terms of learning new things about you, about where you were going in Yahweh, and another season of loss. Because ultimately, uh, you transition from that. So, yeah, thank you. I'd love to hear kind of where you were in the— in those moments.

Yeah, so again, circling back to what circling back to praying through what I could remember through the book of Acts and praying for revival and praying for awakening. And, uh, Yahweh telling me that it was illegal to pray for outpouring when we didn't have the infrastructure of community of the book of Acts. And so when I get the offers for the different, for the different opportunities for ministry and say no, Around that time, my mom was actually diagnosed with cancer. And when I took it to Yahweh, I felt— I told Yahweh that I wanted to be closer to her. And I felt a— it's kind of like a Caleb smirk, like the cute little smirk of like, that's it. And the reason I felt that smirk from the Lord was because then he said, yes, come home. And it's exactly what you just said, is you can follow me, but I'm going home. And I didn't know what that looked like at the time, um, but I began to dream, and I began to— I began to look at the climate of the church And I began to say, there needs to be something different. And during that transition, there was a lot going on. There was a lot from leaving the ministry that I was at and that I was a part of, saying no to the opportunities and then going, moving back home. Um, but I felt from the Lord that house church is what I was, I was wanting to do, and that Yahweh was, you know, kind of that the Lord was breathing on at that time. Um, And so I moved back with my children and my family and, um, a few other key couples that, that were connected, um, to me and that felt, um, just to move down and, and had a heart for this. You know, I began to, um, just kind of work through the vision of what it was going to look like, and essentially it was, it was rather simple. In a nutshell is that we're to come together, um, for, you know, essentially a gathering on a Saturday, have time together to eat, be family, read scripture together, have a time of worship, have a time of prayer, and see what the Lord wanted to do. And from that place, throughout the week, we would be gathering, spending time together, doing life together on— in a real way, not just gather once or gather twice a week and then, you know, throw your money in offering plate. Let's build a ministry. So we did that for, um, did that for a while, and it began to get traction. And leaders in my life began to tell me to look at keep the house, uh, the house-to-house expression, but also look at getting a building. Um, I was even approached by other leaders that I had looked up to that set me in as like a regional voice. And, um, just things began to really, um, start to fall into place, began to move into that way of, of, um, because my heart was not just to have a house church, but then my heart was to be a regional— begin to do regional things of uniting churches together. So not just not just house church, not just life-on-life discipleship, not just every joint supply, everyone have a voice at the table, but then also what would it look like to unify a body within a region itself? And as I began to move in these ways and began to, um, hear the wisdom of leaders that are in my life of telling me what would probably be the best way to go about it, um, I hit a massive halt in my life I, um, you mentioned William Paul Young in The Shack earlier, and he called it in The Shack his, his great sadness. And, uh, for me, that, that was the season that I was at this time I began to step into. And what happened was, um, I was, I was married at the time. It was going on, I believe it was 9 years, and, um my wife at the time just, uh, was having a lot of difficulties and just essentially just felt that she didn't— she wanted very little to do with, with God at the time and wanted nothing to do with the church. And, um, I didn't know what to do because from my perspective and from leaders that were involved in our life and knew our— knew the marriage, there was no merit for it. And so some leaders were telling me, just simply let the community know and continue on because this is a choice that she is making. And other leaders were telling me, you know, otherwise. And so for me, I'm now in this crisis of— I'm naturally a type of person that when something goes wrong, I don't look to other people as the fault. I look entirely at myself as I have royally screwed this up. And so it felt like, again, like what we're saying, it felt like everything began to go the way that the dreams and the prophecies called it to go. And then all of a sudden, this halt came. And for me, I had a choice to continue to do what I needed to do, what I— what some felt that I should do, which is continue on you know, trudging forth in leadership, trudging forth in the opportunities I was given in the region. And again, I went back to the voice. I went back to sitting in silence. And I remember I had gotten— I'm a big patristic, um, patristic fathers guy. I love the early church fathers, the 1st through 5th century. And I remember sitting in my room at the time and, uh, this quote from an early church father that said, the wounded God puts his arm around us and invites us to trust in his wounds. And, um, I all of a sudden, I felt the embrace of Jesus that said Brother, make the decision that you feel, and we will walk together. And that was the moment that I believe that I found true union. And so I did what I felt was right, which was to disperse my community, to shut all things down, and for me to come home. And come home in the sense of what is for me. I learned that the most important— I realized that the most important thing in my heart was not ministry, was not platform and opportunity, but my greatest gift was to make sure my children were as catered to and sheltered in this in order to move forward with whatever came after it. So shut everything down. And then at this point, people are now seeing things publicly and making connections. And I'm getting messages from even family saying, see, you should have, you should have taken that opportunity, or you should have stayed with that leader, because if you did, this would have never happened. Things like, you know, things like this that well-meaning people saying things that often feel like curses. You're gonna say something?

It is a curse. It's exactly what it is. People don't understand that they're coming in agreement with the accuser. Say things like that. And I wanted to give context too, because, you know, some people may not know your story like I do. Yeah, this wasn't a—

a lot of people don't know my story like you.

Wasn't a fast season. Like, it didn't happen in a week. Like, this, this process— and I got to watch you be silent for a long time.

Yeah.

And to, and to go home and to sit and to read and to ask questions, even through confusion at times, even through trying to figure something out on, you know, how am I going to be the dad that I need to be, what church can I attend, you know. There was all these things that I got to see as a, as a, as an inner circle friend that people need to understand. Like, they hear you talking on this podcast and they hear, you know, all the things that you're talking about and saying and all the revelation, and it's like, wow, this guy's really got his stuff together. And that was a hard, what, 2 years? Almost 3 years?

No, almost 3 years, man. What was interesting too is when you're— and when I say well-known in a city, I don't mean— I mean like, I grew up here, people know me, my family's here. And on top of that, I've done a lot of ministry here. I've been a part of lots of amazing things within the city, within the context of this region. So when you're going through things like that and you go to churches to visit to try to get acclimated. And you know what, let's just— I, I just need to find that soft place to land for me and my kids to begin the healing process, to move forward. And you find yourself— I found myself coming into churches and people, leaders would come to me, or people that knew me would come to me and say, are you here because the Lord sent you? Are you here because you have a word? Hey, if you have something, get up and grab the microphone. So then now I have the temptation to ease my own pain of my soul by putting a Band-Aid on something that feels like it's bleeding out, by validating myself. Because I— here's the thing, Caleb, I know I can go into a room with what's on my voice and what's on my life, that even if it's not by the Spirit, I could manipulate a room to— for them to do what I want them to do through, like you said, emotionalism, through volume, through revelation or through wisdom. And I had the temptation to get up and to mask my pain with performance, because it feel good, you know.

Oh my, especially the dark night of the soul, you're in those halting moments where, especially when it's like the third time, it's like, this is like the third or fourth time where I feel like I'm finally gonna get into you know, my destiny as a son of God. And then all of a sudden another halt happens. Like, what in the world? Like, what's the favor of God, you know? What is it?

Yeah, because I haven't found it. And you look at so many people and, and, you know, you do your best not to compare to people, and you're like, but Lord, I know what some of these guys and gals do behind closed doors, and their lives are just like, they're rolling, you know? And, and, and I'm doing my best to be faithful to what I know to do, and in my family, my kids. And all of a sudden, life is, is, is just felt like everything fell out from under me. All of a sudden, there's not just betrayal in family and in covenant, but then there's betrayal in friendships, there's confusion amongst family, there's pain, there's laceration. All these things begin to come into play. And, uh, and like I said, you start to get into these circles of ministry or movements, and because they know your past, they want to pull you— they want to pull you out of the obscurity before it's your time. And what I learned is that maturity is oftentimes never seen because maturity is typically only developed in obscurity. And we see this even in the life of Jesus. Jesus was— he has the glorious entrance of birth, and the wise men come, and these gifts are given. And you see kind of a few things of him growing in his early years, or what the Bible called his stature and wisdom. And then all of a sudden, from like 12, when he's left and lost at the temple, Like, that'll preach. How can you lose God? But Mary and Joseph lost God, right? And so from there all the way until his ministry started, um, it's just hiddenness. It's hiddenness, it's obscurity. Um, and, and I'm looking at the life of Jesus and I'm looking at now visiting churches and people looking to give me opportunities, and I think it was out of the kindness of their heart. You know, they felt— and, you know, I had relationship with these people. Um, you know, they really knew that I was doing my best and that there was nothing on my end per se. And, um, and the Lord brought me back to my own life, and the Lord said, I need you to be careful of coming out of this prematurely, because prematurity can be a death sentence. And I said, what do you mean, Lord? He said, well, son, do you remember you were born premature? I was born at 24 weeks. I was 1 pound. I was about the size of a water bottle. And the, the miracle of my life was not just that I was born and that I lived But what was something beautiful became like the pressure of coming out prematurely, or the crushing that brought that— how am I trying to say this? What, what brought me out prematurely was the very thing that almost killed me. Like, the beauty of birth was the very thing that almost killed me because it wasn't the time in the season for me to come out. So the life became difficult because I came out before the maturity level that would be normal, and that would give me the gift of life to come out as what is called or considered a mature, or a mature or normal baby, is that— and, and, and that's what the Lord kept reminding me, is like, you're in this season of hiddenness, you're in this season of silence and obscurity, because maturity is only found in the places of silence, in the places of obscurity. If you come out too soon, you'll thwart what I'm looking to do.

And then you have the pressure of those that you've known before saying, you know, Raul's a prodigal, where he is, yep, you know, fallen away from God, the favor of the Lord has left. For me, it was, you know, why aren't you saying anything? Why, why don't we—

oh, I got that a lot, man.

Um, preaching, why don't we see you, you know, singing? Why don't we see you, you know, even posting on social media, even something silly? Like, why are you just hidden? They would, they would nickname me the, the hibernating bear. When is the bear going to come back out to play? Um, and it's what you're, what you're saying. Like, you know, and I want to encourage people, like, to not be in a hurry with this. Like, this is the sweet spot. Right here. This is where there is such intentionality from Yahweh and how there is, there is intentional healing that happens. There's intentional rediscovering of who we are as, as sons and daughters of God, that if, if you speed that up, it's very hard to get back into that place. Not that it's impossible, but you're making it a lot more difficult. And I'll say this too, you will know when the time is right to come out of it. It is very, very clear. There is no guessing. And that's what— I mean, we're doing a podcast now. Now I went from not saying anything to anybody, we would do more.

Yeah, people don't, people don't realize, people don't realize even on, on your, you and your family's side, that this, this has been in your hearts forever to do, from permaculture to podcasts to, uh, investing into others' lives through, you know, platforms like this. And, and a lot of times people could easily say, oh, this is, you know, something new Caleb's doing. It's like, no, no, no, this is, this is something that's been in the incubation process Well, thank God it didn't happen earlier, would have been destructive.

Hey everyone, Caleb Pancho again. I wanted to pause this episode and invite you into our movement, the Five for Five. Now what is the Five for Five?

Very simple, very easy, and it's absolutely free, and you can help us out a ton.

For the next 5 minutes I want you to take 5 people and send this episode to them. If you have people on your heart that know will be affected and relate by this episode, please send it to them. Again, push pause, take 5 minutes, send it to 5 people. This is the 5 for 5. I'm Caleb Henshaw with the Wild Country, and we thank you so much for the support.

There would have been some issues. Because I was not ready to do something like this. I thought I was. I thought that I, I laid down enough sacrifice to be able to earn this. And just like going back what we used to talk about, you don't earn this. This is given. This is understanding that you have a ring on your finger, you're in the family, and the ability to not— because I believe if I would have started this earlier it would have been really abusive, and I would have been, um, should I say this out loud, um, accusatory.

Yeah. And you wouldn't be authentic to yourself. You would be, you would be, as Ravenhill used to say, you would just be another echo and not a voice.

Because the point is to— I'm thinking of, because we're talk— the whole point of this is finding home, is for people to find their way back to Papa's house. Yeah. And to find other people that are there, to have something that's, that's real and that's tangible, and to, and to walk in that union that we were destined to walk in. I, I think there's a couple things that I want to talk about, and then there's a lot that we won't because we're going to get together in person in Florida and go over a lot of these things that we want to talk about. But maybe there's two more points that that I want to go over and, and kind of land the plane. Um, for so many things that we saw that ended up being the wrong way, or if it was through ministry, if it was personal things that we had to walk through, there was a lot of things that we were exposed to that were right on the other side. And one of those is the beauty of this relationship between Father, Son, and Spirit that we get to dive into. And there we can credit a lot, you know. I always try to give credit to Baxter Kruger, you know, being just a pivotal person. William Paul Young. I remember, um, having that video made for you.

I was going to say, bro, we— I have to tell the story of this. I have to tell this story. So I remember So I had always heard about The Shack, but because of the circles I came from, it was shunned. It was like, you know, the whole thing.

Oh yeah.

And I remember reading it and had no idea I was going into the season that I was going into with what I call my great sadness. And I remember talking to you about it, and we were just talking, having thoughts and you were going through your own, um, transition, even theologically in your heart, as far as union and Yahweh and the Trinity and all these different things. And I'm just like, dude, you have to read this book. And, um, and you start reading it, and then, um, I don't know how you— we were both connect— we were both like, um, drinking from Baxter, you know, just really great stuff. And You tell me we were supposed to meet up to go to this little men's gathering in the woods. I think it— where was it, Mississippi?

Tennessee.

Tennessee.

Yeah.

And, uh, I remember specifically that weekend, like, I was bummed I wasn't with you. I was bummed I was not there. And it was actually one of the first weekends without my kids. And so I was in just like a very very dark place. Not dark as in like I was just sad. I was just like, what is this? And I remember I was sitting at a restaurant. I was sitting by myself eating lunch after church, and I'll never forget this, and my phone rings and it dings, and I open it up and it's a video that you sent me. So the backstory For me was that, from my perspective, you can correct me if I'm wrong, um, it tells a good story and I hope I'm right, but you had no idea who Paul Young was or that he was even there or anything like that. And to my knowledge, you guys start talking and he revealed, like, you end up talking about the shack or talking about theology or whatever, and he reveals that he's Paul. And then You tell him a little bit about what I'm going through, and he sends me this video through your phone. And I open this video, and I felt like I was at one of the lowest, just hurting, man, just allowing myself to feel, allowing myself to be human the way that Jesus encourages us to do and to be. And I'm just crying at this table. Eating lunch by myself, and I get this video from you and Paul Young that just melts me to my core. And it impacted me so much that I uploaded it to my own YouTube. And when I watch it and I send it to people and tell this story all the time.

Yeah. Yeah, it's— I had known who he was because I'd read the book and I that was one of the reasons why I wanted to go to this. It was a Baxter conference. It was a men's conference, which I— hopefully we can go to.

Yeah, absolutely. Um, we're publicly putting it out there.

Yeah, publicly putting it out there. Um, I remember, you know, because I, I, I'd watched the movie before I went. I like— I had known of Paul Young, and I remember getting a lot of flack for, you know, taking people to see this movie and just being so impacted by just the movie. I mean, I watched the book— I admit it, my wife is cussing right now. Um, and then you suggested for me to read it, so I, I read it. I read that, and then I read Rediscovering the Shack.

Yep.

Baxter.

Baxter's— yeah, Baxter's theological side.

Completely just wrecked. Um, so I wanted to go listen to Paul, and he was such a genuine person. Like, he wasn't— because, I mean, he sold like, what, 100 million copies of this book? I mean, it's crazy how many.

Yeah, and, and I'm sure that number has grown since then.

Yeah, sure, as we speak. And he didn't act that way. He was sitting at our tables. He was breaking bread with us. You couldn't just shake his hand. If you went up to shake his hand, both of his arms are wrapped around you. And I just felt Jesus all over him, but also was in pain for you, mm-hmm, because there was this knitting together. Because we— we— this was the exposing for me, the, the initial exposure of what community looked like, of what, you know, sharing each other's pain looked like. I wanted to move towards you in that. I didn't want to say, you know, I'm praying for you, I hope things get better. No, there was this internal, like, I was gravitating towards your pain to share it with you. And I remember him being there. I'm thinking, I have to ask him to do a video. And I, I didn't even have to ask him. We're just talking about you, like, you know, one of my brothers is really hurting right now and I'm hurting with him. And he, he makes that video and he sends it to you. Um, and man, it just, it, it really taught me what brotherhood looked like in community and feeling, you know, that pain even though we were hours away from one another, kind of walking through that together. Um, yeah, I, I think there's a couple things I, I want to, you know, end this with. One of the things is, you know, we've talked about all the hard stuff, all the pain. I want to talk about some— I want to land on, on some good stuff. Um, the beauty of, of union. And I know you probably have some things that you, you want to share or talk about or ask, and that's, that's cool too. Um, but what does it look like now? I mean, it's so vastly different than how we operated when we were in ministry and a part of that machine. What does life look like now in terms of, of union and joy and peace in knowing that— and I, I, I don't want to speak for you— if we never quote unquote lead a church again, nor would we want to do that in the same sense of what it was before, but you get what I'm saying. There isn't this need for status or need for influence, you know. What does that feel like?

You know, like any true, any true description of God always pales in reality, right? It never is. It's like trying to describe the way you love your children, or, you know, you love your wife, or like, it can never fully grasp it. Right. But for me, the reason why— the reason why the Trinity, the revelation of union and Trinity was so significant to me is because I realized that so much of what we teach concerning things like prayer, things like healing, things— I mean, across the board, is the Trinity becomes segmented. You know, even, you know, we talk about it, we mentioned inner healing. One of the big questions that you're taught to ask a lot in inner healing is, who do you feel closest to? Which, point blank, number one, I understand what they're saying, but what that does is that begins to separate the Trinity and We could even— this can go into so many different things. Even what you mentioned in one of the first podcasts where you mentioned that God did not kill Jesus, we did, right? And that's a whole nother—

that one landed really well, really well.

I know. And what's unique is you begin to look at verses like in 2 Corinthians 5 where Paul says that on the cross where, like, he's describing where the Father was, that he was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself. And I, you know, you begin this journey, you know, you hear people, you, you hear people like William Paul Young, you hear people like Baxter, or even, um, one of the greats in my book, Old Damon, and and so many, so many other ministers. But there's this emergence of honoring the Trinity for what it is, which is the full expression of community, the full expression of love, the full— the full expression of being home. There's a— there's an icon that you can find, and if you're against icons, that's fine, but I think it's a beautiful picture It's of the Trinity, and the original icon actually has a— so it has the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, and they're sitting at a table. And there's— in the original icon, there's a circle in between all three, and that circle is typically a mirror for you that when you look at the icon, you see yourself in that very dance. And I say all this to get to this point. I began to realize that anywhere that I encounter the Son, I also have the Father. Anywhere I encounter Yahweh, I also have the Spirit, and vice versa all the way around. And I began to find myself not only in an expression of joy, but in an expression of assurance that if I don't need to feel closer to one more than the other, I have the fullness of all three in the different expressions of who they are. And so then all of a sudden, when I'm no longer having to focus on why I feel closer to Jesus in this season, let me just get with— um, let me just focus on Jesus, or I feel closer to Yahweh or I feel closer to the Holy Spirit. Excuse me. Now what I— now what I find is that my prayer now goes from striving of trying to stay connected to who I feel connected to while also trying to be in the good grace of who I don't feel connected to, to now I'm at a point where I can sit and I'm simply being with all three. And I find myself in what the early church fathers called Uh, the, the perichoresis, the circle dance of life, joy, union, and glory. That all— that now I find myself when I'm in nature, I'm not going, God, awaken, open up my eyes to your glory. I'm going, Yahweh, I'm in it with you. Yes. When I look into the sun, I, you know, the sun over the horizon, I'm peering into the Father. When I feel the wind, uh, blow past me, I, you know what I'm saying, all of a sudden, uh, the wonder of life begins to ignite again because all of a sudden I'm never alone. That aloneness, that isolation, that, uh, the angst of, of being rejected and never accepted is now an illusion because I'm always with three. Yeah, you know what I'm saying?

I mean, it's— you hear the term, I think it's from— I don't want to say the name, but Jesus is perfect theology. There's truth in that, but not absent of, uh, Father and Spirit. Can't find anything that's kingdom outside of Father, Son, and Spirit. And you're like, I'm feeling, I know that I'm in relationship and union when I'm in creation. Why is that? Because through him and in him, all things that were made, that was made, that the Father created creation through the Son by the Spirit. I mean, it's impacted by this dance? How do we fill them in suffering? Because it was through Jesus on the cross, the Father was reconciling the world to himself by the Spirit. There's nothing outside of the movement of the Trinity. So it becomes a new— not measurement, I'm not looking for that word. I'm trying to think of a better word, but you can find everything pertaining to life and godliness. Yeah, you find the true reality, true reality, and that frees you from the legalistic box that you only experience God in this way. And I want to hit on what you were talking about, like when there's times where you feel like, well, I'm relating more to Jesus in this, or I'm relating more to the and I feel distant from the others. That's like doing— it's like a monoculture. It's— you're behaving in a way that's not natural, that's not a part of the blueprint. The Trinity is the blueprint of life.

It's so good.

Anything that you can experience, or the way that you need to love people, the way that you need to, to suffer, the way that you need to prefer one another— Philippians 2, come on, man— towards one another, it's Everything pertaining to how we live our lives as sons and daughters, as sitting at the table of Yahweh, is found in their relationship. Anything else? Yeah, a lot of that is unnatural, dude.

100%. Like you, you mentioned, you mentioned the, um, uh, the Father being in the Son reconciling the world unto himself. You touched on that. And even people that are listening, it's like, if you, if you believe that verse and you feel like you're in a season where nothing is going right and you're being crucified and you're just, you're facing your cross, the reality of that verse tells you that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are with you in that crucifixion. So even though you're in pain, you will get through it because you have somebody walking with you. And, and if you invert that, if I'm with a brother, like, like you were with me in my pain, all of a sudden, because you know that It's not just you giving me wisdom or you giving me, um, what you feel Jesus is— but no, you have now the fullness of the Father, Son, and the Spirit with you, and you're looking through the eyes of the Trinity, peering into the soul of someone who is hurting. All of a sudden, you no longer have to be prophetic, you just speak. You no longer have to be a healer, you're just a part of it, because now you have the Son who has spoken all things into existence and upheld all things by his word through the Father, empowered by the Spirit. You're now in the— you're in the real reality, which is the kingdom in union. Hmm.

Come on, man. It's the great— I, I, I think of— it's the— it's the most precious, it's the most powerful, it's the most valuable source that I can ever think of is what's flowing through us when we're going through those things. If we would understand that, and I know it's hard, it's hard when you're in the moment of pain, but my encouragement is when you go through those seasons, lean into the fellowship. Be able to allow things to be stripped away, because each time that you go through this, you lose a lot of baggage along the way. For me, for one, it's, you know, Who cares what people think now? That's, that's a freeing place to be. It's a really freeing place to be because I can love people better. I can enjoy the fellowship at even deeper degree. Even though I didn't earn a deeper— I, I, I was able to be more aware when I didn't have the baggage of caring what people thought. Yeah. So every season that's hard where things are addressed or taken away, I encourage people lean into that because, man, you're going to feel light at the end of that.

No, I agree, man. That is, that is everything. And this is— I come from a camp that focuses a lot on holiness, and I found through learning the way in the path of union in, in the Trinity, all of a sudden holiness is not something I strive for, but it is something that I walk in because I have been made whole and I'm being made whole, and I will be continued to be made whole through the fellowship with the Father, Son, and Spirit in the context through community empowered by the Spirit. I heard someone say it was Jason Upton. I love Jason Upton. He's like my man crush.

Yes.

And he said relationships are simply embracing the ongoing creativity of oneself.

Hmm.

And I'm like, that's the perfect description. Whether you're married, whether you're single, whether you have kids, Every single relationship in your life is learning to see them through the Trinity's eyes while embracing their creativity of their ongoing union in that dance.

It's the blueprint. It's the complete blueprint. It's one of the, the leading factors of, you know, even marriages falling apart It's not being unfaithful. It's not money. It's not pain. It's being familiar. It's that they become familiar with one another, that there's this unsatisfaction that grips them to know that this eternal relationship that is celebrating the ongoing growth of create— they're creators. We're creators.

100%.

And you see that in every single person. Yeah, every single person, if we see that in that way, that is the blueprint, this forever evolving eternal relationship between Father, Son, and Spirit. That, that means I can have that relationship with you, that we can, you know, look at the ever-growing creativity in one another. We're not—

we're like, I don't, I don't think, I don't think people ever think about this is like The reason we're ultimately created for eternity is because that ongoing creativity has to be eternal. Yeah, we have been so made for such incredible capacity for, with, and for one another that only eternity is right to be connected to the Trinity and to each other. That is wild to think about. Yeah.

Hey everyone, Caleb Panchaw again. I wanted to pause this episode and invite you into our movement, the Five for Five. Now what is the Five for Five? Very simple, very easy, and it's absolutely free, and you can help us out a ton. For the next 5 minutes, I want you to take 5 people and send this episode to them. If you have people on your heart that know will be affected and relate by this episode, please send it to them. Again, push pause, take 5 minutes, send it to 5 people. This is the 5 for 5. I'm Caleb Henshaw with the Wild Country, and we thank you so much for the support. So, man, this has been good.

I don't want to hop off here, though. We'll land the plane on this final thought. Sure. Home. It's, it's, it's what this, what this home look like, because I'm basing this off of the many conversations that you and I have had.

I—

you've allowed me to just pour out my heart in terms of I see this whole another world that I feel like we're called, and it's familiar and unfamiliar at the same time. I feel like this, this Zion world that we were called, and I go back off of um, one of my favorite scriptures in Hebrews about this, this country that they were looking for. And thankfully that they didn't have their old country on their minds because they would be given the opportunity to return to it. But no, they set their sights off for a new country, one where their God is the Creator and the Maker, and they will build them a city. I feel like this First of all, all the years that I've, you know, was in ministry, I felt like I just completely settled when there was, you know, Neverland available. There was this, this, like we were talking about, this life of, of evolving creativity and wonder and where we come alive in community. I would love to just allow you just the last thought. Of what this home looked like? And practically, you know, how do people start that journey?

It's a great question, man. I'm gonna try to do it justice. Um, for me, the beginning path of finding home was first finding, and sometimes making myself come into stillness through silence. I was a person that could always have a thought, have a revelation, have words, have whatever. And for me, the greatest thing that I did and could do in that season was to— I would literally come home, Caleb, Hurting, broken, confused, not knowing what to do, where to start. The Lord told me for over— it was about over a year to come home. I was off social media. I, I only spoke to, um, at the time it was my mom, my dad. I would talk to you But even then, things were rocking with you, like you guys were starting a lot of things. So at that time, it was, you know, there was some space in between, and I would come home, and Yahweh said, I need you to feel all of this, and the only way that you will feel it is that if you come and make yourself become still. And I would come home from work, I would eat dinner, and I would sit on my butt in my living room on my rug. No, here, for me, this was for me. No music, no Bible, no phone. It began to be so difficult for me in the beginning because so many emotions came up that I would feel almost like a vibration through my body of the angst of I, because I couldn't bear the silence. I couldn't bear, uh, the emotions that came up because I was so used to covering it with ministry, covering it with, you know, XYZ, that I began to lay on my back and I began to, um, what the Orthodox say is pray the Jesus Prayer. Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. And I would do that as I'm breathing in in breathing out. And I learned to sit in silence and breathe deeply, teaching my mind and my heart that even in the silence— through silence, he speaks and ministers to my heart regardless of what I feel or what my mind is telling me. And so for me, that was a first big step, is learning and creating a place of silence and solitude to the point to where— because I believe that that in part is what Isaiah prophesied, that can you perceive it? I'm doing a new thing now. Springs are coming forth in the wilderness. The predators are lying down with the prey, and the, the lions are eating grass, you know, and the, the jackals are not, you know, this, this verbiage of the wilderness now becoming a promised land. So what felt like death to me in those moments of making myself become still, the place that I was afraid of to come into, now became the place of freedom that I was now longing to come home. I can't wait to get done with work, get done with eating, so I can just sit and be with the Trinity.

And then you think of the Jason Upton song Uh, In the Silence. I know you just name-dropped him.

No, dude, that's one of my top favorite songs, man.

In the, in the silence, I can feel the fire that is burning, burning deeply, burning all that is that you desire to be silent.

So good. I haven't listened to that song in years, but it still rings true, man. And, but I believe that that's, that's a major, major thing for specifically American Western Christians is we are so busy, there's so much noise that it's hard for us to settle, settle our hearts and come back to the table and actually rest.

Because we're taught to scream and to fight and to swing our swords and to ride momentum. And that it's, it's not that you have to unlearn certain behavior, but it hurts to be still. Like, it's, it's, it's un— so unfamiliar because we're just jittery people. You get, you get used to being a part of that, that wheel, that system where you have to— activity is good. You don't, you don't want to just— because you don't feel like anything is happening. And I say this to say, because I think that's where people's minds go. You know, it's easier to go into the prayer meeting and scream and lose your voice and spiritual warfare it up, you know. And what you're saying is what led you to this place of finding home is sitting in stillness and silence. It's a lot.

Yeah, 100%, 100%.

A lot of courage that he, that, that he would— he'll come, that, that Father, Son, and Spirit will come.

Well, this, this is what the fear was at first, because I'm feeling the angst, because I feel the jitters, because I feel that I need to do something. I'm feeling that way because he's not here. And then I realized, no, no, no, no, he's allowing these things to come up and he's here with me in it.

Yeah.

Like, he, he let Peter sink because he wanted us to know you were never made to be a superhero Christian and walk upon the winds and the waves. But I actually want you to sink down into the winds and waves of life. And as you sink down, and as you learn the way of death, I will grab you and pull you out into my resurrection of life, to where you'll, you'll carry my scars that can only be— I mean, it even says in the Old Testament that he has treasures hidden for us, locked in darkness. And for me, that's what I found, is that I must sink into my life, into the things that Yahweh has for me. I must sink down into these emotions in order that I may emerge like Peter with Christ, identifying with his scars to get back in the boat, to invoke the praise of— with community.

Yeah, that's so good, man. I, I'd almost would end, end on that, but I wanted to do something practical for those that are going to listen. I think that we'll just, um, quick shoot between each other What are— what were some things, some resources? Because I believe in resources. I believe even in content that was helpful for me.

Yeah.

Um, the first thing I can think of, you know, of course Baxter Kruger's, uh, books and teachings are great. There was a video series on YouTube from Lee and Paul Young on The Shack, and I would encourage anyone listening— what we did, what my wife and I did, is we watched a video every night. I think we would space it out just how we felt, and we would deal with some of the things, some of the topics. I think there's 20 short videos. Um, I would encourage someone that's, you know, on this path to check that out. Um, do you have any that you— that just come to mind? Like, man, this was a really— this was a really good resource for me when I was walking through this.

Yeah, no, I agree with you. Um, any, any video— if you go on YouTube and type in William Paul Young I have, I have burned through all of his videos. I have burned through all of Baxter's, uh, Baxter's book. Um, not— I know people mention this one a lot, Jesus and the Undoing of Adam. That one is phenomenal. But a book that really helped me specifically in that season, there's a book called Across All Worlds by Baxter. That was phenomenal for me. Brenning Manning's books, any of his books, but specifically Abba's Child was a massive resource.

And I'm going to put these in the show notes and everything. Yep. So people can—

Yep. So Abba's Child by Brenning Manning. Also, too, his book Ruthless Trust is phenomenal as well. And then, um, one that helped me theologically, but it's, it's a book that is more readable for anyone, um, is by an Orthodox guy named Bradley Jersak, A More Christlike God. Um, that book was phenomenal.

And is it a more Christlike gospel or a more Christlike God?

A More Christlike God.

Okay, he has another one that's more— a More Christlike Gospel, right?

Yeah, there's a, there's a 3-part series. Okay. Um, no, that one is A More Christlike Way, I think. I don't know, you can edit this out. There's a More Christlike— More Christlike God, More Christlike Way, and More Christlike Word. The word is about Jesus, the way is community, and then that God is essentially healing our faulty views of the Father.

Yeah, my wife likes Jerzak a lot. She even quoted him in, in her book and message, and he responded, so he's pretty cool about it.

Yeah, Jerzak, all those guys, man, that whole camp, they're just incredibly humble people.

Yeah. What about, uh, friendships in this season? Would you— how would you encourage— you know, we're, we're big on this, this time of isolation where you're sitting, you know, you're sitting down in, you know, your darkness, and Yahweh is walking you out. He's meeting you there and walking you out. There's There's also, you know, these times of— because we were connected, even though there were people we didn't speak as often, we were still connected. And I felt like that was helpful for me. Yeah, how about you? But it was helpful for me.

No, absolutely. I should have prefaced it with the reason why silence and solitude was important for me was that because from my past and from the way that I was, uh, brought up as a kid, I have— I had a more natural tendency to be codependent upon some friendships that were super special to me. So instead of, um, sometimes if life was feeling too much, I would lean into, oh, um, this brother said I should be doing this, so let me just go do that, instead of hearing the voice for myself. So that's why for me it wasn't— that was important. I should have prefaced that. Um, but remind me the question about the friends.

Yeah, how's it— how important is it during this process to just connect with people?

Oh, I, I really don't think that there's any other way. Um, you need the community. You need people that know you, people that understand you, people that know your strengths, people that know your weaknesses, so that when you are spinning, like so many times with me when I would be caught in those emotions, friends like you would help kind of regulate me to get me back on that path of, hey man, I hear you, I know you're hurting, this is what I'm hearing for you, or this is what I'm feeling, man. You're doing, you're doing great. I know it's difficult, I can't imagine the pain, but I'm here for you. And you need people that, um, even sometimes when you feel like you can't hear the Father, Son, or Spirit, you can find the voice of Yahweh through a brother, or find the voice of the Spirit through a sister or through a friend.

Yeah, I remember one specifically that you did for me. I was wrestling with living where I'm living now. I kept thinking like I didn't want to miss it, you know, like I, I didn't want to miss, like you were saying, the opportunity that, you know, Yahweh's putting in front of us to take it and, and not the fear of missing out was, was, was present. And you said— and if I misquote you, I'm sorry— but he's like, I just feel like you always say pick one. He said, just, just pick one. And I remember that it hit me like a ton of bricks because it was so true, um, that, that the geographic location wasn't on the heart of Yahweh. There was still some things that we needed to walk through together So I picked one, and it's, it's worked out so far.

Praise God.

Yeah, yeah, thank God. You got anything else you want to, you want to share? Land the plane.

Um, I would say, ending thoughts, I would say this: you may have— people that are listening, you may have experienced things in God But when you make the sacrifice to walk in this place of union, to walk in this— just as Jeremiah called it, the ancient paths, the way of peace— your mind will be blown on the other side of all of this. Um, you may be in a dark place, uh, you may feel like you're in a storm, but as cliché as it sometimes sounds, is they don't last forever. There's people that have gone before you, um, that have walked through these seasons, and there's incredible resources for you not to be alone. There's people like me and Caleb and vast, vast droves of people, um, that have gone before all of us. And I would tell you this, if it wasn't for friends that have experienced some of these things even before me, I don't know where I would be. So get the resources, connect with the people, um, and find out really how good Yahweh— and I mean Yahweh as Father, Son, and Spirit— really is. I speak your name in all the tongues of men to know you. In the darkness of my heart, I still cling to you, oh Lord.