The Personification of Love: With Clay Hatfield, Christian Jones, and Kaleb Hanshaw

Hey everyone, Caleb Henshaw with the Finding Home Podcast. Um, I'm not sure what episode this will be because we never release it in order, so it may be 9 or 10, 11, who knows. I know that we've taken a break, which has been really, really good, having some family time, but I have booked the rest of season 1. I've got all the guests lined out, and I'm excited about this one because I have two of my very best friends, Christian Jones and Clay Hatfield. Clay Hatfield is usually behind the scenes, um, doing the producing He's the main producer of, of this show, and we're in his house that is for sale. So if you want to buy this house, you get ahold of Clay and say you heard it on this podcast, and he may throw us, you know, some commission or something like that. I don't know. Tim Williamson, it's pretty nice, pretty spacious. And the dinner table, does it go with it?

Yeah.

Dinner table goes with it. But so, 3 guys in a room. Christian, you doing okay?

Yeah.

You know that your episode is the most popular? That's funny. Yeah, it's got the most views.

Well, he's the most handsome, so that makes sense.

I think people are just super curious about where you're at. I think a lot of that came from Florida. They're like, Christian's alive, he's alive, he's got a beard now.

It's like the people who thought I moved back to Florida.

Oh yeah, you probably had a lot of people from Western Union like, Christian's still here? I thought he had a ministry opportunity to go do something. Yeah, but yeah, that episode was episode 3, got a lot of response from that, so I'm excited to have him back on. And then Clay, this is his first time, and I'll just— I'll give a warning about Clay. He usually drops some bombs on me. He doesn't believe it, but it's usually out of Correction. And it's really what's, uh, made me want to talk about this topic. You know, you got 3 guys in the room, you know, talk about some manly stuff. We're going to talk about love tonight. Um, we're going to see, you know, what is love, how's it defined through scripture, how's it defined through relationships, and, uh, really talk about how hard it is sometimes to love people. Um, really in love yourself and all of that. I wanted to talk about this because I feel like this is a theme that you have talked about for a long time. And it's usually when I'm sitting down and I'm in a bad mood and I'm talking about a situation and you just simplify it so easy, like, hey, why don't we just love people? I'm just trying to love people. And it's so impactful in those moments that I wanted to kind of kind of crack the egg. But hope you're excited. Hope you're excited to be on the pod.

I'm nervous, I'm gonna lie.

I've tried to get you to get on here several times. So I think a good starting point is defining love, I would say, from a worldly perspective and even a church perspective. Um, I know in high school for me it was easy to fall in love with a girl. It was this affection. It was, you know, these feelings. It was, you know, how I felt towards someone. Um, and then as you get older and you go through marriage counseling and all of that— everybody's married in the room— you've heard say, you know, love is a choice. Like, you choose to love someone. And then even in the church, it's like We love the sinner but hate the sin. I want to say like there's three different types of viewpoints on love, and I don't even know if that's the correct one. I think we look at 1 John 4 to start. If anybody has anything else you want to hop in and say— okay, so I might read this whole thing. Here we go. Little children, you can be certain that you belong to God and have conquered them, for the one who is living in you is far greater than the one who is in the world. They belong to this world, and they articulate the spirit of this world, and the world listens to them. But we belong to God, and whoever truly knows God listens to us. Those who refuse to listen to us do not belong to God. This is how we can know the difference between the Spirit of Truth and the spirit of deceit. Those who are loved by God, let his love continually pour from you to one another, because God is love. Everyone who loves is fathered by God and experiences an intimate knowledge of him. The one who doesn't love has yet to know God, for God is love. Says it twice, which is pretty interesting. The light of God's love shone within us when he sent his matchless Son into the world so that we might live through him. This is love. He loved us long before we loved him. It was his love, not ours. He proved it by sending his son to the pleasing sacrificial offering to take away our sins. And he says, delightfully loved ones, if he loved us with such tremendous love, then loving one another should be our way of life.

That's pretty cool.

So initially And I'm basing it off of the first 3 definitions of love or aspects of love that I brought up. The first one was this feeling. It's something that you said before. I'd like for you to open it up a little bit. There was a problem I was having with a certain situation, and you just flat out said, are you going to love this person or not? Or is it determined by circumstance? Is it circumstantial? And I'm thinking about me in high school. That's very circumstantial. I love this girl. I have these butterflies in my stomach. Things are going right. Or even loving. It's easy to love someone when there's no conflict present. And if there's no expectation or they're meeting expectation that I have. It's easy to love that person. You said you just need to decide. And maybe you want to share something personal. I know you don't— we won't name names or anything like that, but it's so impactful.

It's about a particular individual that we're all close to, that we love, that I've particularly had like a fathering type relationship since I was probably 12 or 13-ish. And there was a lot of struggle involved because my, my own dad left whenever I was about 5-ish years old. So I didn't have— it was a single mom, mom home kind of thing, whatever. Me and my biological dad are close again now. Not close, I wouldn't say that, but we're okay now. Lives back in the area, whatever. But I wanted something from this particular person that, um, I don't know a good way to say it, but I would get disappointed at times because either the ability wasn't there because that person had their own responsibilities or whatever reason. And I had just kind of fought through it for years trying to, at first, trying to make him be that person for me, make him fill that role in whatever. That situation particularly, I remember we were supposed to meet for breakfast one morning. We kind of did stuff from time to time as we had the ability to. He worked out of town, which I work out of town now a lot, but for whatever reason that morning he got called away or something. And man, I was just angry again. Like, this wasn't the first time. Like, I was just angry because I wasn't getting what I wanted, right? And it wasn't because I wanted to slight him or have him under my thumb or anything. Um, but I remember we were in the old Hardee's parking lot down here where I was, and I went to leave because he had texted me and said he wasn't going to make it or whatever it was. And I just felt the Lord just ever so softly in my heart He said, are you going to love him or are you not? And I would be lying if I said that that was the immediate point that I just 100% full-time love it. Like, I've gotten angry sometimes because of how I perceive— I don't want to say love, but if you care about something and you've heard this before, if you love something or if something's important to you, put your time into it. So if, uh, uh, if you're not getting that time or you're not getting that love or affection reciprocated, it can be really frustrating, right?

Man, it's hard because you have— you build expectations on that. Like, you, you have a definition of love in you that's probably different, and that's what makes it abusive if those views don't like have common ground.

Yeah.

Like, and that's why they wrote a book, The Five Love Languages, you know, figure out how this person receives love or this person defines love. Like, you're either, you know, quality time, or someone really values gift giving and all that. What makes it hard is when you already have that filter and that expectation and someone doesn't meet that expectation, you know, that's hard. And, and I was going to ask you a question, you already went into the answer, was when you received kind of like that word from God It almost like when he simplifies it like that, it almost makes you mad because it's like, oh, that's really easy. But like, how did you work through that? I probably cut you off from the answer.

No, no, no, that's good, man. It was, uh, you said it earlier, man. Uh, love's a choice. I think you said that people say that or whatever, but, uh, it really is, man. And it's something that needs to be explored. The whole— me and my wife kind of went through the Five Love Languages book, uh, when we first got married or a few years into it or whatever. And I think that those languages, those love languages, I don't think that is love, if that makes any sense. I think love is something that transcends those things you can do that lets your partner or let somebody, not even necessarily a wife or spouse or whatever, those are ways that you can communicate that you love somebody, but that is not love. Like doing those things is not love. Love is something more than that. And it's something that— I don't know how to explain it even, man. There's not something attached to it. And it's not something that can be lost, I don't think, if you really love somebody. Me and Christian were talking earlier about the people say that, oh, well, perception's reality. I don't believe that. Some people may believe that, and I can see that perspective or whatever. But I think that there is an absolute somewhere out there and you just got to— I think that you need to take the time to find it. But like, if you really love somebody, it doesn't matter if you're slighted by them or if somebody lies on you or is mean to you or goes behind your back or whatever. I used to talk to people all the time, tried to adjust my perspective to to think about what the Lord went through for me and still goes through for me because I still miss the mark plenty of times. There's times that I went in the wrong direction on purpose, did the wrong thing on purpose, and I don't like— that doesn't compute to me with, with real— with people here on this earth in flesh, if that makes any sense. Like somebody specifically going out of their way so I don't get a job or to ruin my reputation or to physically harm me. It's hard for me to think like, yeah, I want the best for that person. I love that person more than anything. And to think about the Lord, like I've hurt the Lord because I did XYZ, you name it, any sin, or I was mad at the Lord because of XYZ. But he still loves me regardless. I mean, it's— I know I'm kind of going off on a tangent.

No, this is, this is good. It reminds me of that quote. I think it's from Bill Johnson that someone asked him in an interview, like, why do we never hear you talk bad about someone? And he gets tears in his eyes. And I'm going to butcher the quote, but the gist of the quote is, is the fear of— in the fear of the Lord, why would I say something against someone that he created and spent time on.

Yeah.

And that's— I'm not there, you know. Like, it's so easy to fall into being critical over someone because they don't meet your expectation or your definition of a person or your definition of this is how a relationship's supposed to be. And I've been in that driver's seat, you know. I've hurt people because of that, because I think they're hurting me. It's like a— it's an eye for an eye when it's— when I didn't think I was doing that, but it really is like, okay, well, you're not you're not meeting my standard of relationship and love, so I'm not going to meet your standard. I don't even care what your standard is.

Yeah.

And that's eye for an eye.

Whenever, uh, not to cut you off there, but like when you— we talked about this before too, but when you start doing that, uh, your love becomes conditional. It's condition-based. And like you say, well, if they come back and if they apologize or if they make it right in whatever situation, then they can come back and be a part of my life, or then they can do this, or then they'll be restored. And that doesn't even just go for personal relationships or whatever. I would go as far to say, like some of the churches, like if there's a clique or a— I don't want to say a holier-than-thou whatever, but if you set yourself up in a group or or as an individual on a pedestal and say, you know, I'm living my life this way and I'm right and whatever. And as soon as you come back on track, then you're good. That's conditional, bro. But the Lord, the Lord, like, man, he went after those people that were sinners.

Yeah.

Unconditional. And still wants them. Still wants me, bro.

It goes into that that phrase too that I mentioned before, like, love the sinner but hate the sin. I'll be honest, I hate that phrase. I do, because like being in sales and being in like starting a business, one of the first steps that you need to do is set an authoritative spot. Like, you know something that someone doesn't, and that's why you're offering a service for them to buy. I feel like that comes through the same vein. Like, I love the sinner, but I have to hate the sin. It almost comes in this, like, I've set myself as this authoritative figure versus the sinner that I'm loving. And it almost makes it into this weird dynamic of this self-righteous approach to just loving people, because then you fall into this, well, I'm commissioned to love people, so that's why I have to love people. And I'm reading through a lot of scripture today, and I think love is— I mean, it involves action, it involves choice, it involves, um, you know, knowing who God is. Because if you don't love people, you don't know who God is. But man, it's presence. It's, it's like, this is love, that I— that God sent his son that the Word became flesh and walked the earth to be present and to be amongst us, to be near. So I'm even like, how does that pour over into my— think about my closest relationship with my wife, and it almost just raises the bar. And I'm not there yet. I mean, there's things that I get aggravated with my wife about, and I can tell you what she gets aggravated about with me. I do a lot of stuff, but it says you should love your wife as Christ loves the church. Like, what did the church do to him? Yeah, like, I know there's this passage where it says these are, you know, means for divorce and you can do this, but it's like, if you look at the standard of Christ, of love your wife as Christ loves the church, well, does that mean that she can put me on a cross and nail me there, and I still— I watched The Chosen last night, or it was a couple days ago, and it was— he was washing feet, and I broke down when he starts washing Judas's feet because he knows. It's not so much that he's displaying this love to Judas, but he's also willing to teach Judas a lesson about servanthood. In that moment. It goes further than, I'm just going to love my enemies. He actually gets intimate with him in showing him what they didn't believe what leadership looked like. They believe, you're going to come, you're going to overthrow Rome, you're going to release us out of our captivity. And he gets a towel and starts offending them. They're offended in this moment. It's a realm of intimacy. He's fighting their expectations in this moment of who he should be. He's showing them servanthood, and he takes the time to teach Judas this lesson. Like, how profound is that?

How—

that's not like you said, it's not by circumstance. It's not circumstantial to not only be present in the room with your betrayer, but to actually invest in them and to show them. That's the greatest— one of the greatest displays of love that I've found.

Think about— I heard Judah Smith once, it was a Sermon Jam I listened to, but he's talking about Gomer in Hosea. And just think about, like, imagine your own wives. Say they stepped out on you. And the Lord says, go get them back. And then steps out again. And you go somewhere and you— and he puts it in such a way that you go to this place where they're auctioning these people off to be sold into like sex slavery or whatever. And they come in and I think he articulates it in such a way like, no, sir, that's my wife. And he's like, sir, I don't care who you think she is. This is how much she costs. Think about the embarrassment. It just— I don't know, bro. It's a whole different perspective of love that I never considered before. I have to consciously think about it with people because I get angry still whenever I'm slighted or I'm done wrong or whatever. But there's sometimes, man, in that conscious effort that the Lord is gracious, man, and he just kind of— I don't know any other way to articulate it other than to say, man, he's just I don't know, man. He teaches you, teaches you how to love people, teaches you how to see it from a different perspective, and it makes you conscious in like everything you do. There's a verse in, uh, I don't, I don't know where it's at, I'm gonna butcher this, but it talks— everybody always quotes it, the whole pressed down, shaken together, and whatever, but they don't ever mention the end of the verse that says whatever measure that you measure out to people that's how it'll be measured back to you. And I don't know the context of the verse, but I always try to keep that in the back of my mind when I'm treating somebody some particular way, even if I'm in a position of leadership or authority that I'm correcting somebody or whatever, my troops or something. I try to take a lot of thought and bring them into the conversation or whatever when I say, hey, this is why we're doing this, man. You know, this is what's going on. This is what was unacceptable or inappropriate. But I try to end the conversation always with, this is how we fix it. These are the good things that I see about you. You do this or that really well.

Is that like— I think it's Ephesians that says to speak the truth in love. Is that from an intellectual place? I would say it's the way that you say your words, like you said, like, hey, you're doing this right. But I feel like speak your words in the position of love, like your heart's posture, like you're approaching a relationship where abandonment's not on the table here. Like, I'm not just going to walk up and leave. Like, there's this willing to remain. And even if there's disagreement and conflict, I think that's what in love means, bro.

There is something, um, that I think so many people miss, that I've missed for so many years. There is something beyond conflict, hate, anything, man. There is something out there, and I think so many people miss it, and it's caused such division, like, because people just don't get it. They don't understand I really love you, because all they see is the correction, or maybe I said something to you in anger, or whatever the case may be, man. They don't cling to that thing that's beyond that. Like, there is something, and I don't have it yet. It's still cooking in me. I wish I could tell you exactly what it is, but I wish people understood that no matter what, like, you can count on me. Like, I might be mad at you. I had a real close friend that we weren't able to talk for a while for whatever reason, whatever. But I had said to that person at one point, I said, "I'll never not answer you. No matter the situation, no matter I'm upset, whatever." I don't know, man. I just wanted to throw that in there. There's something that's past that. And I think if people could really grab ahold of that, it would start, it would start focusing on the things that actually matter. Your house doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Your salary at your job, for the most part, you need money to live and stuff like that. But all these things that we get caught up with here, positions and titles and things that they're just things here, they don't really matter. Like, people matter. I think there's something that's beyond all the labels and the titles and whatever. I believe Jesus wants every person regardless of your choices or your whatever, and I want to be like that too.

Because I think, and it sounds elementary when I say this, it's to receive Jesus. It's to not pray the prayer and he comes into your heart. It's for Jesus to crash into your life and your existence. Because it's not circumstantial. Like, if people would— and people ask me all the time, like, they want me to define sin, or they want me to ask, is this bad if I do this? And I always say, like, what does Jesus say? Have you talked with Jesus about it? Have you had a conversation? Because if they have that— because Jesus isn't so concerned with, in my opinion, I'm not speaking for everybody in this room, it's not the, this, the actual sin, it's the heart. It's It's the posture. Because even he says, you know, if you have anger towards your brother, you're committing murder. Like, the, the root of the problem is not the action or what you do, what you— how you live and express. It's the posture of your heart and what you believe about me. If you've received me, if you received, you know, the love that I have to give. Because once you get that, you know, love is everything. As you were talking, I was— and I'm not going to quote the verse right, but it almost like if you give all your money to the poor, yet you don't have love.

Oh yeah, it don't mean anything.

Don't mean anything. And it's not— I don't see that as a verse of correction. I see that as a— this is a warning. It's almost like a warning. Somebody saying, hey, don't spend all your life working because your family is the treasure. It's almost like a piece of advice like that. You can do all these great things.

Oh yeah.

But if you do not have love, you have missed the abundant life and the fullness and wholeness of life that we have to offer, because that's where everything is dealt with. That's where everything is settled. That's where we're in this fellowship, is in love.

Yeah.

And it's— I think it's presence. And I think it may be one of those offensive things that God says that's very simple, but to remain to keep showing up, to keep pursuing. What is Jesus saying in this matter? Well, if he's not answering right now, maybe he'll answer later. And I'm willing just to stay here and not have any expectation over it. It's just to simply remain in that space and that posture. Yeah, I thought about that and I thought about Thought about Paul, man, of all the wonderful things that Paul accomplishes. He's got that, he's got a resume. He's got a resume in a worldly sense of the, the scholastic journey that he had. He was, he was well known in his education, but also when he became Paul, of all the things that he did for the gospel. And he says this just to know him. All of this is nothing. Of just simply knowing— that's the mystery there. That's the— I could have given all to the poor, but if I didn't know him, it would be nothing. To simply know him. So I'm thinking like, what are the barriers? What are the barriers that we're putting on ourselves? Because like you said, it's people. People get it wrong. What are the barriers that we're putting? I'm not going to say in between the Lord and I, because I don't think there's any abandonment in this. There's this. He'll sit down with us in our darkness and just wait with us. But what's going on in our heads here? What's stopping us from really— because I love this conversation that we're having, but I know something probably is going to happen tomorrow where something is triggered, you know, and I'm not loving people like that. Like, I'm not remaining with people. That's a good way to say it. I don't think I've ever said it in that way. How do I remain with people in situations?

Uh, dude, I mess up a lot. I miss the mark a lot. Uh, not just with loving people, just with a lot of stuff, man. And all I can think about is like, is getting back up. I don't want to stay down there. How many times do I forgive somebody? How many times do I let somebody hurt me? A lot of times whenever you really love somebody, you make way for them to hurt you. You become vulnerable to them, to that person.

I think it's hard for me to love people because I don't, I don't understand like the process of, you know, being healed from hurt.

Yeah.

So if it happened once, I, I go all out to just try to prevent it from happening again. So then that becomes not authentic relationship. When actuality, if we were loving like Yeshua, that's total freedom. And what I mean by that is it becomes selfless. So if you hurt me, I should be more concerned about you than what you did to me. And that takes away all the repercussions of what you've done. And that cements my feet to the floor and remaining in that relationship, because now my focus is on— and that's what Jesus did with Judas's feet. The betrayal already happened, and it didn't change the way that Jesus— like, Jesus wasn't insecure of the betrayal. It was about Judas. In that moment. So when we learn to really love people, I, I think we spend the rest of our lives kind of learning this, because love is a person. Love— it says God is love. It's personified in the indwelling of the Trinity. I mean, it's— that's something that we spend the rest of our lives finding out. But I think the point in what we find in scripture is that's the goal, is yeah, you can pursue all these things, but make sure the X on the map is you're going towards love. You're going towards loving people. They'll know that you're from me because of the way you love each other. So it's— yeah, you might hurt me. I might have, you know, a family member that is hurting me in this moment, and it finally— I get to the point where I'm learning to love this person where that's not even an issue anymore. So that hurt doesn't pierce me the way that it was. I'm still left vulnerable, but I'm more concerned about them in the moment. And that's— that makes me sound like a good person. I'm nowhere near, you know what I mean? But I'm looking at the example that Christ continually shown. I look at the example of the Father. Think about this, that the Father sends his only Son as a gift of love, and we nail him to a cross because we're so offended that he used the word Papa. We're so— and it's the church that put him up there, to use the word puppet. And, and it— we have this idea that Jesus created the cross. The cross was a mechanism of torture already in play before Christ. He took the worst of what we had to offer, and we brutally murdered him. We brutally murdered the gift of love. For God so loved the world that he gave His Son. He personified, He brought in presence. Think about the living Word walking among us. What other display of love is there? And we murder it, and we not only murder it, but we make fun of it, and we spit on it, and we lie about it. And He says, you know what? I'm going to use this. I'm going to use this event and base the New Covenant off of this event of how much I love you. I'll see your betrayal and I'll meet you there and I'll wash your sins away because it's not about what you did to my son. I'm— it's about your sin and your moment and where you're at. We're going to heal it. We're going to fix it. And I get mad at a family member because they don't meet my expectation.

Yeah.

If I could get to that point, and I hope we can, how freeing would that be? And that's what you hear in scripture, and you think it's just like, oh, that's just how to be a good person. You know, someone slaps you on your face, you give them the other cheek. Someone asks you for your coat, somebody asks to walk with them a mile, you walk too. Because it's not about you, it's about the person. It's about how your love can affect, can cover a multitude of sins.

Yes.

Yeah, I feel the Lord. I feel— I'm like tearing up.

Well, I'll tell you something, uh, if it's okay for me to jump on this real quick, something that I think is so important to like discovering how to love people is a willingness to say yes to the Lord. And I know that sounds really church, whatever, churchanese or whatever, that and humility. It costs something, man. I say this from personal experience. I'm not saying there's a doctrinal whatever for this or whatever. Over the years, man, I've offended a bunch of people, a bunch of mutual people we know. You know some of the stories, some of them you don't, man. There was a certain point in time where it started to hurt my heart. Like, I recognized it, that there was aught between me and a family member, me and a church member, me and anybody— insert anybody, right? I started to recognize it. And, uh, but I believe if you're sincere in heart and you're willing to be humble, um, the Lord will reconcile that. I'm telling you, bro, I've had stuff happen all the way back to when I was in middle school, remembered stuff, like stuff that I'd kind of gotten over and forgot about. And the Lord just bring it up in my spirit, like, "You remember such and such?" Like, yeah. And I would sometimes break down and cry thinking, "Man, I can't believe I did this to that person." And the Lord, you know, 10, 15 years later, Random. I'll tell you a good— I used to work for a lady at, uh, what was the movie place in town over in Del Martin? You remember, uh, one—

it was a one-stop, um, with the hand chair.

Yeah, but it was the video store. You get video games. Yeah, and stuff in there. There was a lady there, and me and another friend worked for her, and I had said something one day to her, really smart aleck, um, And just— and I was— I think I was in middle school at the time, like, or maybe freshman in high school, so like younger. And it was probably 10 or 15 years later, man. And it had bothered me for a little bit. And no joke, man, there was a wedding at the church and this lady was a photographer. And I was shaking. I was nervous because I knew it was time to do something about it. But I had to be willing to do it. And I had to recognize that there was a chance that I was going to get cussed out or rejected or whatever. But I went to this person. I said, hey, do you remember me years ago, blah, blah, blah, whatever? And that person, to their very graciousness, oh, honey, I forgot about that. Long time ago, whatever. I said, no, I need to apologize for that. That was wrong with me saying whatever. And I'm telling you, dude, from about that moment, there were new things popping up in my heart about— there was just being smart aleck to people I knew at church. And I'm telling you, dude, without fail, every time they'd be like, oh man, don't even worry about that. But I had to go the distance. No, man. Yeah, I messed up. And the kicker came a couple years ago. Somebody I wasn't really close to, but I looked up to as a leader in the church, and I had been angry with that person because of some situations that had happened. They didn't particularly do anything, but I just felt like the way they handled the situation as a leader, I didn't think it was fair or just. And it started to hurt my heart, man. And I didn't feel like I was the person in the wrong in this scenario. The other ones I did. This scenario probably taught me the most about this, going to somebody in humility. And I said, such as I asked for a meeting. And I said, hey, I said, I'm not here for an apology. I'm not trying to get you to apologize to me. I said, I truly, truly mean this in all humility. And I said, I love you. But this, I'm kind of upset. I've been upset for this amount of time because of this reason. And there was like multiple occasions of things that had happened. And by the end of the conversation, I did get an apology, even though that's not what I was looking for. And a hug and, you know, and things were okay. And something that I felt like after that situation was that the door was open for me to receive from that person again, because I was holding a grudge against that person. And I'll even say it this way, I had like this personal grudge in me, but I would still help out and volunteer. Anything that that person asked me to do, I was doing it because I felt that's what I needed to do. But I still was holding on to this thing. It was me. Even though I didn't feel like I was the one that did wrong, I was holding on to that. And I'm telling you, since then, man, I've had a couple of times that I knew 100% I wasn't in the wrong, but my whole perspective had changed. From that one interaction. And at every subsequent point, I'm telling you, man, I've never ever had a meeting or an apology or anything end negatively approaching somebody in humility and being willing to put myself aside and not say, I deserve to be treated better. I deserve this or that. But going in and saying, you know, I really love you. Is there any way that we can fix it? I was offended. And I think it's important to say what you were offended about.

Sure.

I think people need to have a little bit thicker skin. And I'm not talking about people that were abused or, you know, assaulted or something like that. There absolutely needs to be safeguards and stuff in place for that.

Yeah.

But if there's something emotional or something that you feel slighted about, being willing to put yourself aside and not feel entitled I'm telling you, man, I've never ever— the Lord's never let me down. And anytime I went to him post any of this stuff happening and saying, Lord, would you please fix this for me? I had reached out to you a few weeks ago about a particular person, said, hey, can you— you got such and such phone number? And I still haven't got to talk to that person, but I was— I'm almost excited to do it now. I really want to just reach out and be like, you know what, bro, I was just a jerk when I was younger, teenager, whatever. You know, I may have made some jokes and I personally didn't mean this or whatever, but I just want to apologize, you know. And I 100% believe that the Lord— I'm telling you, man, every time I've asked him and been willing to like just put myself aside, my pride aside, and go to somebody Bro, it's never failed ever. And I mean, it seems kind of obvious, like looking back, and I'm not saying it will always be that way, but it says love never fails. Even if somebody— I'm sorry to hijack the conversation like this, bro. But in that statement, love never fails. Even if somebody rejects your apology, or rejects what you're trying to do in reconciliation, when you love that person, bro, it covers everything. Because one day, one day, all of this, it'll be over. One day, the righteous judge who knows the truth about everything, it'll all be revealed. And that's not to like justify you or make you anything. It's always been my hope that things would come to reconciliation for peace. Rest, bro. I need some peace and rest in my life. I've needed it for a long time, man. And it'll come in little pieces like that. Anyway, sorry, man.

No, it's—

I didn't mean to go.

I should have wrote some things down because you just opened up a lot of things for me. One is this love. It's like steps. The greatest commandment was And I've heard people speak on this, you know, love God with all your heart, um, and love your neighbors as you love yourself. And it's putting it as you love God, you love yourself, and you love people. And it's not because it's, it's legalistic, it's, it's just order. That's how it works. You have to know what love is. It's personified. God is love. The very essence of who he is, of what he's displayed, is love. That allows you to see the value that you have. Because I think a lot of these issues and conflicts directly comes from our insecurities. It's easy, and I'll put it this way, it's easy to partner with the voice of the accuser when you're insecure about who you are as being loved by God. For me in my life, it's easy for me to step into being critical to having an issue with people that don't meet expectations or being critical against someone that's harmed me. It's harder to partner with the voice of love and just hearing the way that even Yahweh's reminding you of things and you're like, hey, you remember this person? You're going through a process of learning how to partner with the voice of love. Like, it takes away situation, takes away what they've done to you, but it also allows you to go to your brother whom you have quarrel with or you have an issue with. They even make it plain to where you don't go to sleep. Yeah, don't go to bed with it on your heart. Like, that's how important this is, because that you are not just displaying love, but you're releasing it. Over someone. And you just said even this particular leader was still doing things that you weren't in the wrong of, and it wasn't necessarily what you believed to be right, but the whole situation was changing because of your part. You're willing to be humble and partner with the voice of love rather than the voice of the accuser. Because it's hard. It's easier to go against people.

Whenever you start to side with the voice of the accuser, or when you get angry about that and you want to be justified, and this is just kind of an on-the-spot thought, but you become the victim. People tell, oh no, it's okay, that you were right. And it's, bro, it's bad to be the victim. It's bad to get into that mentality because it's hard to get out of it.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, I used to, I used to ask people like, you don't like me, do you? A lot. And a lot of times it was to gauge that person or what. It was manipulative on my part. But, bro, you get in that, that mindset of, of a victim. Oh, it's tough to get back out of there. And then everything starts becoming that way. Oh me, like my life's so— like such and such is doing this to me. I'm getting screwed on my job. I get a bill every time. I just can't keep up with— I'm not making enough money. It's easy to get— and those things are important. People need to treat you right and stuff. And I'm not saying that this is just some magical thing that makes you make more money or makes you have better relationships 100% of the time. It can be really easy to fall into that, man. It's enticing even to think like, oh man, somebody's going to care about me.

Yeah. And it's like I said, it's insecurity. It's being a victim is being insecure. You're insecure because of your hurt. Like, I'm lacking this and this is why I'm hurt, because this person came against me and, you know, said something about me or said something rude, and I feel like I don't have that. So I, I react to a person. And that's why knowing that you're the beloved of the Father is such a step one thing. It's why it's the greatest commandment in the— love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, so that you can know just how much he feels about you. That way, the insecurity doesn't have room. And it's not a perfect process. That is— I think that's the goal. That's why he sits with us in our darkness and our pain and our failures. But you look at— it's so easy to go against people when it says that people aren't our enemies. Like, flesh and blood is not the problem. It's the principalities. It's the lack of love. It's this. So instead of addressing the lack of love in a situation we want to pin ourselves up against somebody because it's naturally easy. I'm looking at them, I'm seeing them, I have expectations of this person. I don't look further. I'm reminded of Patch Adams for some reason. Like, I'm not looking beyond the problem. I'm focused on what's in front, what's easy to see and what's easy to fall into if out of my insecurity. I'm not looking past this relationship of, okay, what's really missing here? You know, where is love in this? How can I partner with love in this? How can I partner with the voice of love in this?

Bro, when you just said that, I just— about, uh, wanting to pin up next to somebody, somebody else, just made me think of that verse: in our weakness, his strength is made perfect. I mean, think about that, man. Like, you don't need to pin up against somebody. And you know, whenever you, uh, whenever you pin up with the Lord, you're really pinning up with your brother.

Yeah.

If they're pinned up with— I mean, you really— anyway, I just want to know. I mean, it gets me excited, man.

They give the— you know, we've heard it several times. I know Christian's heard the same message probably 1,600 times from a different person. But conflict resolution, right? So we're taught conflict resolution. Step number 1, go to your brother in secret. That's supposed to be the only step. If we really understood what love is, I've never seen Jesus do any step program. Before. Like, there's deliverance, there's this— love is in the room, something happens, change happens. It's like, no, okay, step number one is you did— and if that don't work, if that don't work— and I understand why it's there, that's proper order when things don't go that way. Yeah, but number one is you go to your what? Your brother. In secret.

In the Old Testament, I mean, I'm pretty sure it's in the Old Testament, but I believe it when it's talking about at the tabernacle, uh, when you go to give your sacrifice, if you remember that your brother has ought against you. Yeah, it doesn't, uh, I don't think it says that you have ought against your brother. I think it, it's that your brother has ought against you. It says leave, leave your gift right there, go make it right. Like, it's important.

Yeah, and that didn't go away. That Jesus came to fulfill the law.

Yeah.

So that's still important to the heart of Yahweh, is that if someone has an issue with you, like you said, humble yourself to that person and allow the focus to not be on you because you will fall into the victim. You'll fall where it's easy to accuse, easy to hurt people. You hear the saying, hurt people hurt people, right? I mean, that's my biggest issue, was being so critical of the church, especially the first year that I let— like, Yahweh had to pull me out, I believe, because I was so abusive. It's hard to say, but it might have been because of that. You know, there's some things that I— you know, he didn't mess with my theology, completely wreck it, and he knew if I— he did that in the midst of people, that I would hurt a lot of people. And that's the first year we were gone was so hard because I wouldn't have loved people the right way. And just getting so critical, like, people are people.

Yeah, we're imperfect, bro.

Like, church hurt. Yeah. You'll find it in probably every church. You'll find where someone doesn't meet your level of expectation. Like, this isn't a, here's the rules of how you hurt people in church. Don't fault. No, everybody has different expectations. Everyone is different, and that can become dangerous to, to people in a congregation, because how many landmines do you have to miss? How many people do you have to not offend? I love this conversation, but I'm trying not to get insecure all over, like, man, I got a long way to go. And it's seeing the value that you bring to the relationship is very, very important. And I'm— example, how I love my children. There's nothing that they can do that will change my love for them. There's just not. There's— I, I am— and they can be annoying and they can do some really crappy stuff. Like, they can break things that are valuable of mine. They cannot listen. They can have a temper tantrum. But that, that my affection for them is unwavering because One of the components of that is I know what I bring to the relationship. I'm the father. Yeah. I bring value to my children. I need to be in their life. And it's not in an arrogant way. It's in this selfless way. This might be the one thing I have going on that might be half right. It's in this selfless way of I need to show up for them. So there's not something that they're going to do. I think we have to be that with everybody else though. If we get to the point where we can see ourselves in it, like, man, I have this opportunity to release love over this community or this organization or at my job or with a friend that I have quarrel with. There's an opportunity for me to approach this in love and understand I'm loved by God. I'm special to him. I'm special to the earth because of that. And it's not in an arrogant way. It's knowing who you are. And Jesus always, I think, portrayed that in revealing the Father. The Father and I are one. What a statement to make. You know, what if I walked around like, Jesus and I are one. We're one. Even though that's the prayer of Christ, that they be one as we are one, you know, like that, that we will be with them, that we'll never leave them. That sounds arrogant. It's not to say like we're powerful. It's the opposite. It's we, we are, we are loved. We, we are children of God because we know this love. And then because we know this love, we can approach situations where It's not based on circumstance. And I use the example with my kids because that's just easy. That's an easy concept to accept in this world. A father loves their children. That the Father loved Jesus, that he sent his son. But what about other relationships that maybe not be so easy, like rivals or things like that?

I think, um, The other side of the coin too is in love, being willing to hear what somebody else has to say to you. I have a Sergeant Major that I'm pretty close with, I would say now. I mean, we're not best buds fishing and stuff like that, but our relationship started off several years ago. Never had spoke to the man in my life and received an email that was addressed to myself. Some other subordinate leaders in our battalion. And, uh, hey, we're going to start doing stuff right. You guys have been missing deadlines. You guys have been pretty much chewing everybody out over email, not in person, right? Didn't sit well with me. So I complained to one of my buddies at the time. I was living away from home working, and some kind of way it had got back to him that I had been complaining about it pretty much. And he was coming for a site visit when we were at an annual training in Indiana. And he got there and there was a particular memo that I needed him to sign for me to board for another position, right, to be considered. So he walked up to me after his kind of little tour was done, coming to meet the guys, whatever. And he was my direct kind of supervisor, whatever, on the full-time side, whatever. And he walks outside with me and he says, uh, he starts kind of laying into me. He's like, don't you ever talk to anybody else about a problem that you have with me. And goes on for a couple minutes. And then he says, and he pulls this memo out and he says, I guess I'll sign this. If I have to, because it's my job or whatever, something, something kind of smart aleck like that, right? So he walks off and just leaves me there. And I'm in shock in the moment because I'm— in the military, it's a little bit easier to kind of bite your tongue because you're trained that way, right? I'm sure some people don't, whatever. But for the most part, people are trained like, oh yes, this is my superior. I'm going to be respectful, that kind of thing. And I was just like in shock. I didn't know what to say. And the dude just walks off and I'm like, And I think about it for a minute and I start getting mad. And I'm not good at confrontation at all, man. I'm terrible. I'll start shaking because I'm very emotional about it because I feel like injustice, you know, whatever. So I kind of wait a few minutes and I go back in. I'm like, hey, can I talk to you in private? Like very forcefully, you know. And he comes out. And I said, listen, I was like, if you don't want to sign this for me, if you don't believe that I'm worthy of this or whatever, I said, I'll get this other person to sign it that's above you because they know me and they'll vouch for me or whatever. And I said, and I was like, and I'm going somewhere with this, I promise. But I was like, and as far as me calling you about a problem I have with it, I was like, Sergeant Major, I've never talked to you in person ever. It's like, I don't even have your phone number. And in that moment, he goes, well, you know, it was a 6-hour drive out here for me, and I just kind of had this on my mind the whole time, what I was going to say to you, whatever. And he says to me afterwards, he says, I know you've never missed a deadline. I know that you— he said, I had to put that email out because I can't just single people out. And that ticked me off too, because I was like, we're in the Army. That's not what we do. If you do something wrong, you get in trouble. Not everybody, right? But, uh, I say all that— well, I got a little bit more if you guys can hang on for a second. A couple years later when I was in Jordan, uh, this same Sergeant Major, still my boss, uh, comes over and there had been something that happened. There's a certain school, uh, that you need to get promoted in my position at the time, and they're very scarce. We've got like 4,400 troops-ish total in the West Virginia Guard. We get, for my rank, you get about 25 to 30 seats a year. So it's kind of an order of merit depending on how you are on the promotions. Long story short, this same guy, he selects people there. I'm number 2, my buddy's number 1. He picks number 7 and 8 on the list to go to this thing, and me. Some other guys are livid about it. He comes to visit us in Jordan. Uh, and I made— I had kind of— I'd said my piece about it before, and he had made a comment to me about promotions. And I really didn't mean anything by this, but I had made a comment that I may not be at the same level the next year or whatever, and it immediately ticked him off. And he said, what's that supposed to mean? We started yelling at each other. We go out in the, in the street so as not to disturb the other citizens of the post. But it started to unpack some stuff that I was angry about. And I was like, where have you been? Like, as far as mentoring me, giving me guidance? And he comes back and makes the comment, I did— you're, you're this rank. And I didn't think you needed somebody to hold your hand or whatever. And we exchanged words. And he starts just weeping. In the street. And I say all that to say, this particular leader is unconventional in my— he does things a different way than anybody else that I've been with. But I can see through that, that his heart's in the right place. And the fact that he allows me to say what I want to say to him, and me keeping in mind that he is my superior, and I want to be respectful, like I really do. But sometimes I need to raise my voice. Sometimes I need to express like my disappointment and stuff, and to know that there's somebody that will listen to me. He'll give it back to me too if he feels like he needs to, but he listens to what I have to say. I know there's been a couple of times over the years, but if it's okay for me to say between me and you, I pick at people a lot. If I see something wrong, sometimes I'll just come out and just be like, well, man, you know, Sometimes you act like this. And, and I appreciate you and you let me say stuff sometimes because I feel like it's important. But I hope, you know, maybe it wasn't when we were really young, but in recent years it's because, like, I care and I'm just, just sharing an observation. I think it's so important that people And it requires both sides. Yeah, you have to be willing to hear it, but the person that's giving it needs to be in humility when they're doing it and has to project like, hey man, I love you. And sometimes it's not the right time to say it. You kind of got— I can't tell you how to figure it out. I would say listen to what— whatever the Lord puts on your heart. Haven't never went wrong listening to the Lord in a situation.

I think I think that you just defined something very important with that. You said something that even though he's unconventional, his heart was in the right place.

Yeah.

His heart was present. Like, this is what love is. It even goes into, like, love covers the action and the way that we portray. If our heart's in the right place and You have to see that in me and I have to be willing to hear it from you because I know that your heart's in the right place. This is how church hurt happens very, very quickly because people don't see where people's hearts are. You have to be able to understand love. You have to be able to see it and you can reject seeing it because you don't see the person's heart and you see their words and you see their actions. A particular story, and I think a lot of people are going to relate to what you just said and really to this, is when I first got my start in ministry and I was a youth pastor. I mean, I was step number one to being a head honcho. This lead pastor, he was very abrasive. He liked to lead on fear. He was very by the book in terms of the denomination that we were in at the time. And there were points where I'd have to— anything that I said behind a pulpit, he had to approve. I had to send him my notes. And I hear all these stories about, you know, this is church hurt, this is church hurt, feeling manipulated, feeling— being afraid in a staff meeting to say something because I might be made to look like a fool. So that was like— but then I began to find out that that's how he was led by his pastor. And what flipped it was he really believed he was doing the right thing by me. He thought he was mentoring me. I mean, he could have just not cared. If I would have seen that part of where his heart was positioned towards me, I believe that we would probably be closer today. You know, I don't think I've had a conversation with him that I'd like to have. I'd like for the Lord to make a way for us to have a conversation, for me to thank him. To be mad at him for so long, because it's easy to be a victim. It's easy when people don't meet your expectations. And to say thank you for caring enough to do what you did because you thought it was right. And that's where it even brings this whole definition of love covers a multitude of sins. If we can see it, we can be in the moment and see this person's feeling towards us. I think that heals relationships in family, that heals relationships among friends, and that, yeah, between you and I, when you say something to me, I never go, Well, he's just trying to pick on me. I'm not insecure in that way because it's through— it's through history. Because I know that when you say something, you're not just saying it just to hurt me and to run.

You actually care enough, care enough to stay in the trenches whenever you say something and remain. I say I'm not going anywhere. And that might seem like a really simple concept or whatever. Being willing to stick with somebody and say, I'm going to stay here till we get this thing figured out. Until there's been some conversations we've had that I went into because I had a certain view on something and you corrected it, man. And I just really thought in that moment, like, man, I've just ruined this friendship by saying what my point of view is as though it were truth without not being there and seeing it from myself, if that makes any sense. But, uh, but yeah, man, having somebody that's willing to go the distance and not quit— oh man.

So what does that do for you, like, um, to know that you have a friend? I know it does for me. I want to hear it from your perspective, to know that you have a friend that's not leaving.

I probably could count on one hand the amount of people that I could 100% know that I could say anything I wanted to say and that they would still be there. I know, I think I've told you guys a couple of times about our mutual friend. Um, one time earlier on in our relationship, probably been 15 years ago now, um, I got drunk while I was out of state, called him at like whatever, 1, 2 o'clock in the morning, cussed him out for like 45 minutes, you know, because I was mad because I wasn't getting the reciprocation that I thought, you know, like we talked about earlier. And I didn't understand it at the time, but the next day when I sobered up and I was like, man, that wasn't the right way to— even if I was feeling that way That wasn't the right way to handle that. And there was some, uh, I don't want to say it was pushback, but there was some caution from that person. And like, man, you know, we can't, we can't, can't do this. You know, we gotta, we gotta act right too. I don't remember exactly what was said, but it was that gist, right? But to know that it made me, it made me feel relief in that moment when I heard his voice. And he was like, okay, yeah, I forgive you. I forgive you. To know that that's there, man. And to think about how difficult that is to offer to somebody. I can't do it except to think of how the Lord offers it to me. I'm sure that I'm going to sin again. And I can't understand fully how he— he's 100% just committed. To keep loving me no matter if I went out and murdered somebody right now. He's still committed. If I went out and committed some other egregious crime, he's still committed. I can't— I don't— I'll just be human with you. I don't know if I could say, uh, you know, if, if you went out and did something, insert some egregious something, that I would still be keen to You know, yeah, man, come over to the house. Let's have a pizza. Like, I would— like, the holiness in me would like, yes, I would still love you, brother. You know, we're going to keep a distance. Lord doesn't say that at all. No, he's— there's no restriction. How often do you let somebody hurt you? How much power do you give to somebody to hurt you?

The love chapter, 1 Corinthians 13, right?

I know you were saying earlier, like, if I don't have love, then this doesn't mean— I think that there's something else, but it says if— or is it— gosh, I'm terrible. I probably should study. But if you— to the extent, if you only love people that love you, what's the point? Yeah. What are you talking about? Yeah, what do you get out of it if you just love people that love you? If you're just like-minded with those people who are like-minded with you, like, what's the point of it? There's no sacrifice, there's no winning anything, there's no paying for anything.

Yeah, and it's easy to be— it's easy to be— it's self-love if you're, you know, loving people that are good to you and see the way that you see things. You don't have to intentionally take your eyes off yourself. Um, yeah, 1 Corinthians 13, it's, it's the same, what, kind of what we were talking about. If I were to speak with eloquence in earth's many languages and in the heavenly tongues of angels, yet I didn't express myself with love, my words would be reduced to the hollow sound of nothing more than a clanging cymbal. And if I were to have the gift of prophecy with the profound understanding of God's hidden secrets, and if I possessed unending supernatural knowledge, if I had the greatest gift of faith that could move mountains but have never learned to love, then I am nothing. Verse 3— it's all scattered here, so I'm sorry— and if I were to be so generous as to give away everything I own to feed the poor, to offer my body to be burned as martyr Without the pure motive of love, I would gain nothing of value. Love is large and incredibly patient. This is, this is killer. Love is gentle and constantly kind to all. It refuses to be jealous when blessing comes to someone else. Love does not brag about one's achievements nor inflate its own importance. Love does not traffic in shame and disrespect. Nor selfishly seek its own honor. Love is not easily irritated or quick to take offense. Love joyfully celebrates honesty and finds no delight in what is wrong. It goes on to what you were saying, even though if the honesty is, is hard to hear sometimes, it's celebrated. Love is a safe place of shelter, for it never stops believing the best for others.

That right there is something that stood out to me a lot was, uh, have you ever been in a relationship, uh, or a situation, uh, where you think you know what's going on and you start making assumptions about people? And sometimes those assumptions, you think some man, they're trying to, they're trying to slight me in this way. I've done it quite often. Like, I still do it from time to time. They're only doing this because this is what they're trying to make happen. You never get in that mindset that, uh, somebody's out to get you. Your insecurities— you never get in that mindset that, uh, that someone is doing wrong, and it doesn't become about you anymore. You love that person. That's stuff that gets in the way of loving other people.

Hey everyone, just a quick break just to say thank you. Thank you for the support this year. Thank you for listening. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for giving us words of encouragement. 2025 was a tough year for a lot of people, but I think that we finished it well. Be on the lookout for new episodes coming in season 2 in 2026. I'm Caleb Panchaw with The Wild Country. We'll see you then. Love is patient. And I just think about all the times that the Lord was patient, how he embodied love, because this is who he is. He's kind. Remember the kindness of the Lord. And how forgiving and how he doesn't hold it over our heads and just sits with us. I'm sure there's a better view somewhere else, but there's this compelling love there that he sits in our darkness and he just, just waits because he's so patient. He's so gentle and he's so kind. But he also has this heart that we're going to get out of it. We We— and going back to even Hosea and Gomer, God owns the world. I mean, he created it, he owns it, and then buys it back. And he's patient. You're talking about I'm, I'm his property, I'm bought with a price. All those churchy sayings that are true. But yet he lets me wander because of his patience, because of what he's building in me. He owns me. What kind of slave master does that with his slaves? Right? Because we're not. We're friends. I'm his beloved.

What would it gain you or gain him if he only loved you because you loved him?

He's not asked us to do something he hasn't done.

That's good stuff, man.

I'd like to read this and just, if you could, whoever's listening, if you're driving, stop driving, but close your eyes and think like of the intentionality of Yahweh displaying all these characteristics. Like, oh, that's who he is. He is love. It says, and this is the Passion Translation: Love is large and incredibly patient. Love is gentle and consistently kind to all. It refuses to be jealous when blessing comes to someone else. Love does not brag about one's achievements nor inflate its own importance. Love does not traffic in shame and disrespect nor selfishly seek its own honor. Love is not easily irritated or quick to take offense. Love joyfully celebrates honesty and finds no delight in what is wrong. Love is a safe place of shelter, for it never stops believing the best for others. Love never takes failure as defeat, for it never gives up. Love never stops loving. I love that. It extends beyond the gift of prophecy, which eventually fades away. It is more enduring than tongues, which will one day fall silent. Love remains long after words of knowledge are forgotten. Our present knowledge and our prophecies are but partial. Sorry. But when love's perfection arrives, the partial will fade away. When I was a child, I spoke about childish matters, for I saw things like a child and reasoned like a child. But the day came when I matured and and I set aside my childish ways. For now we see but a faint reflection of riddles and mysteries, as though reflected in a mirror. But one day we will see face to face. My understanding is incomplete now, but one day I will understand everything, just as everything about me has been fully understood. Bald like a baby. It's that simp— it's that simplifying thing again, all over. It's that, like, he spoke to you in the parking lot of the Hardee's. Are you gonna love him or are you not? It's this— there's a lot of fancy things in the church, there's a lot of good things— prophecy, tongues. They will all fade away. When perfect love comes. Like, that is the X on the treasure map. That's our view. That's our focus. And if we can see past the offense of people and our own expectations of people, I think that we could love them better. Maybe not. Just, just hate people, man. It's easier. Just cuss people out. It's much easier. This was a good conversation.

I had a good time with it, man.

I was just soaking it in, man.

That's what I love about Christian. This is how— why I absolutely love about Christian is he will not say something if he doesn't feel compelled to say it. When he does, it's like It's, it's heavy. And even if he's just in the room, there's a difference when he's in the room. I just, for me, I'm not that way. I feel like I have to make something happen, or, you know, he's not like that. And I like want to be more like him.

I think people like me better whenever I talk less.

Well, anybody got any, uh, final words? To those that are listening, maybe some encouragement. You know, maybe somebody's listening to this thing and they're like at stage 1 and they're having some difficulty. You know, first of all, we're not— I don't think we're above stage 1. It's not to not even think in that manner, but orderly. Like, we have to see love the right way. We have to define love the right way. Because I think when we notice those attributes of the person of love, I think we can start seeing them in his creation.

Yeah, I would say be willing. Like, I know it sounds really simple and it doesn't sound well defined. Uh, be willing to see a different perspective. Be willing to let go of what you think that you know or have known Dude, I tell you what, I feel like the more that I go along in life, the less I know about the Lord. I've been messed up over the years. Some of the stuff that I was taught in Sunday school or church when I was growing up, not saying that anybody had any intentions of misleading me or anything. I don't know, man. I feel like the Lord's just turned it upside down sometimes. Or just given me a different perspective or put me in a situation that's made me that way. I would just encourage you, if you just feel that little bit of something in your heart and you feel like, man, that— I hate that we're not close anymore. How many people have a friend like that? I hate that we're not close anymore. I hate that we don't talk that much anymore. Sometimes it's not practical, but man, I'm telling you, I can tell you from personal experience that When you get back with those people that you really love, man, it's like you never left. There could be a big gap in time for one reason or another that you or the other person can't meet up or can't hang out or can't talk on the phone or whatever, man. But just get right back into it, man. And it's almost like the Lord just shows up with you. Be willing. Be open. That's what I would say.

Yeah, I would agree. I don't think there's much more I can add, but just to highlight again, just being humble. Yeah, to be wrong, you know, maybe I'm wrong in this, maybe you're right.

The—

I think that's not so much the point, is just being willing to listen and not just walk in there with your expectations driving your actions and your feelings. It's easy to read 1 Corinthians 13 and be like, okay, I need to get there. I think just pump the brakes a little bit and just remain. I know this has been the theme. Show up in your pursuit of love, and it's God, and just remain. Let things be dealt with.

You ever wrestle with love?

And you walk out with a limp.

Yeah, exactly.

And your name is changed and you're not—

yeah, bro. You know, in that— I'm sorry, man. I know this is a total tangent. Do you know when it said the word that's used there? It's— it can mean character. He says, what is your name? What is your character? My name's Jacob. I'm a heel catcher. I'm a whatever. That's not going to be your name, your character. The word he uses is character anymore. Now it's going to be this. Hmm. Bro, he was willing.

He was willing to go, go the distance with the Lord and remain and to wrestle.

Yeah, it's not easy all the time, man.

No, it's not. As we were just saying, like, we're talking like we have this thing figured out, but, but this is healthy. Like, what we're doing right now, even though it's on camera and, you know, on a podcast, this is— this conversation is healthy. Have this conversation with people.

Yeah. And talk about, you know, figure something out and come and tell me about it, please.

Yeah. I mean, it's just in— just, just in the realm of this, of this relationship of my relationship with you guys is remaining in these relationships, knowing that you think differently than I do on certain things. And then there's grace in that. Not that you're wrong and I'm right, but there's grace to love each other in their own place, in their own position on where they believe something. So these conversations are healthy. I would say have them, you know, put yourself out there. Be with people, remain with people while pursuing what love is.

Yeah.

Remaining in that position. I really want— and read 1 Corinthians 13 and put yourself in the story. What was it? Love is patient. Love is kind. Pray, Yahweh, thank you for your patience in this particular matter. And think about the times where the patience was expressed. Say it. Say it out loud. Say it over yourself. I would give that advice. Do you have anything before we land the plane?

I just think it was very practical what you were saying. I was starting to do it myself just in my head of like, Father is patient. Father is kind. And as I run through those things, just running through that through my head was just like, was really good. It was really good. That's because it's not something you always think about, I guess. And you can get different perspectives from life that color your views of him. And it's good that I can look at 1 Corinthians 13 and say, if I forget, who he is. I can come back here and I can say, nope, that's, that's who he is right there. I can look at these characteristics and I can put his name in there, and that I can always remember who he is, even if, you know, whatever life experiences are telling me otherwise. I can look at that list and put his name in there and remember who he is.

Yes, I think too, because the— the— not the goal, but the design is for us to be like him, right? Yeah, to be made into the image of his son, who is also love, because they are one. We can't do that until we first know what that is. Yeah, and it's— and that responsibility is on him as well. Yeah, it's— it's not for us to drop, should I say. It's not for us to juggle, like, oh, I hope I get this right. Even he steps in there and makes a way for that to happen because he's patient, he's kind. But we have— that's the most important. If we— if our eyes are on him, we will be made like him. That's the result.

That's what I've That's what I'm feeling whenever I'm talking about that, when I'm putting His name in there and remembering that. There's some kind of wave of just relief that just— something just washes over me whenever I can read it in that way, that I feel His love because of that. I can feel His love just because of that. And there's an empowerment there for me. Just in doing that, I don't know how to explain it. There's like a peace that kind of comes and it's like, man, I can just— it feels easier to love now. It feels just a little bit easier to get just a little bit closer to that, you know, loving Him with all your heart, soul, and mind, and loving your neighbor as yourself.

That's the way— that's the only reason we love our children the way we do. There's only way we love our wife the way we do. We can't really take credit for that. Um, yeah, it's just good.

It's good, man.

Good, good way to end it, man. Um, so yeah, if you want to buy this house, there's been love in here. There's been love in this house. So Um, yeah, let us know. But thank you guys for listening and, and tuning in. Thank, thank, uh, thank you all for letting us take a little break. And season 1's almost over. I don't know when this one will be released, but I'm excited to release it. I just feel so good right now in this room. But anyways, thank you for all the support and the messages. Continue to do that. Continue to share it with people that you think that need to hear it. But let us know where you're at. Let us know what you're struggling with. And maybe you need to go out and get a bite to eat if you're local. Be happy to do that. Anyways, this is the Finding Home Podcast.

We'll see you next time. Speak your name in all the tongues of heaven. To know you.