Level 1 energy: You're the VICTIM. Level 7: You're UNSTOPPABLE! Here's where you actually are.

I think in a lot of the day-to-day that we don't pay attention to, especially as leaders, is just stop giving advice. And I know it's easier said than done. It's hard, like even in an individual contributor role, to just not give advice and direction, you know, sharing everything that we know because we're so wrapped up in the thought that I have to have all of the answers to kind of prove myself in my career and realizing that if I step away from that and I'm showing up more curious, how that actually lends to building stronger relationships and leading towards opportunities in my career that maybe wouldn't have been possible if I was just always showing up with the answer and not being vulnerable and talking about the fact that I just, I don't know everything and I don't have all the answers can be actually pretty powerful.

Jason, welcome to Driving Impact, the Top 5% Method. I'm so excited to have you.

I'm so excited to be here. I appreciate you spending some time with me today talking about some topics that I love.

I know. And for the audience, Jason works at LinkedIn and that's where we met because you were giving us— and I was so inspired— you were giving us training for the leaders of LinkedIn about leadership. You're in the learning and development portion of the leadership and coaching at LinkedIn. You also worked at Apple. You worked at Upwork, which is a company that I love as much as Apple as well. You also own your own company, which is Refined Talent. So give us a little intro about who you are, what you do, and what you're passionate about.

Yeah, father of 4 young adults starting empty nesting, which is like a significant transition in my life and is a part of my story and some of the things that I share around what I've kind of learned about myself. But I, I grew up in retail. Retail and got started pretty young in leadership, you know, which, which brought me to Apple at a period of time where I was starting to kind of understand, grow, and develop probably a lot of the skills now that I've connected with in a way that make a lot more sense than they did back in the past. And from there, I had some really great opportunities to kind of get more specific into the learning space with Apple that moved me to California from the Midwest where I grew up. And eventually, as I transitioned and, you know, realized I wanted to get out of retail, I wound up at LinkedIn. During the hypergrowth phase initially from 2013 to 2018. And I held several different roles from leading onboarding at the company as we were ramping up and bringing on so many new employees to starting to, you know, develop a little bit more of an expertise in leadership development, leaning on a lot of my background and experiences, you know, from my past working at other companies. And through that growth, you know, continued to explore throughout my career into the places that you talked about. So having an opportunity to stand up the learning function at several different companies. And as a product of that, I think what I learned about myself was a lot of what I think enabled me to be successful throughout my career were skills that typically related to things specifically connected to coaching skills. You know, my background, you know, in leading teams and the way that I showed up, you know, for certain individuals. And I would probably say the way that I led tended to come from more of a coaching mindset. And that's kind of brought me to where I am today. And, you know, I'm a certified coach and a lot of what I spend my time on with my clients outside of LinkedIn or even those that I support internally tend to revolve around energy leadership, you know, and how do we start to self-regulate in ways to help us make decisions that are actually going to lead towards the things that are important for us and our fulfillment.

And that's so important. I remember vividly a session that you led. You really are able to create a space for leaders to to open up, and I remember you were very vulnerable and you were making some jokes on stage. You were like, oh my, I'm 45 and my back is hurting. I can relate to that. It was like, for me, it was my upper neck. But that's part of leadership because we are whole humans, right? Physical health, mental health, and spirituality, and all these different components, and your energy as well. But before we jump into energy leadership, I, I wanna talk about like father of 4, I only have one child. And child, like, that's a lot. So tell me, how did you do it? And there's like 4 boys, 4 girls, a mix of—

Yeah, yeah. It's like the all-American family now at this point, I think, in a blended family. So I started at a pretty young age, had my first at 24. From there, had another son. So 2 boys, 2 girls. They range in age from 23 to 18 at this point. So starting the empty nesting phase of life. And for me, I think like anything else, you just don't do it alone. And naturally, a lot of us feel like that throughout different aspects of our life, whether it's personally or professionally. And so I think what I have tended to lean on the most has been my community, my family, those that have reminded me that at the times where you're kind of questioning yourself and whether you're doing everything that you could be doing, that you're actually okay. And a lot of that is probably manifested in having older kids that now you can have conversations with around the impact of the way that you've shown up for them. And that's been really important for me. So it hasn't been easy all the time. A lot of people reference the bigger kids, bigger problems. I think it's less like bigger problems and just more complex and even more interesting because it's real life and getting a chance to to be a support mechanism for them and actually leveraging a lot of the same things that we'll probably talk about today in the way that I parent. Actually, you know, I kind of consider myself a parent coach. You know, they've connected to this energy leadership, energy management language, whether they know it or not. Like, it's a part of a lot of our conversations.

I think it's important. I think it's a good segue into energy leadership because when I had my, my son, I realized, oh my gosh, I really have to hit the gym harder than I ever did.

Yeah, yeah.

They have so much energy that I was like, how do I match that energy? Because they're just— they have so much energy throughout the day, even more, you know, the witching hour at night. So what is energy leadership? Because I think it's such an interesting concept.

100%. And I think for me it was, it was interesting because I started to explore this when I was going through a coaching certification program. So it was founded by Bruce Schneider. It's IPEC. Coaching Institute was the program that I decided on. And at the foundation of the program was energy leadership. So it kind of sits at fundamentally the way that you connect with your clients, the way that you really understand what runs kind of across some of the things that are important for them and what might be getting in their way and allows for you to explore in a really interesting way how you lead with energy, you know, because it is, it is kind of like a leadership a form of leadership, if you want to call it that, but it also really is a process that if we lead through energy, we can really start to identify what can work for us versus, I think in a lot of cases, when we don't, what can work against us. And so it's definitely been a process of unlocking for a lot of people the things that they probably know about themselves, but maybe at times are avoiding really connecting with and realizing that those are the things if worked on or if invested in or if there's a shift that's possible can actually lead towards the things that are most important for them to focus their time and attention and more importantly, their energy on.

How can we make it real? Are you referring to like, oh, in the morning I have more energy and I want to go deeper into leading with energy?

Yeah. I mean, what makes it real as a part of the work more specifically, there's an opportunity that people can go through an assessment. It's about 85 questions and it dives into every aspect of our life, even how we how we think spiritually in some ways, but also leadership, the way that we kind of consider leadership and how it shows up for us and how we experience a lot of things, not just how we're showing up, but necessarily, I think in a lot of ways, the environment that we're a part of and how that's influencing our values and beliefs and the way that we move through life. And more importantly, so that starts to create more of a tangible connection for people. And when when we think about it from an interaction standpoint, there's an opportunity for us to lead with a couple of different types of energy is what it references. And so one is a level of catabolic energy, which tends to be lower levels, more unintentional or unconscious related. And then we have more conscious related energies, and they measure this on a scale of 1 to 7. So the lower levels being the 1 and 2. And then when you start to shift from 3 to 7, we're starting to make more of a conscious choice or decision in terms of why we want lead in this particular way because we're starting to understand based on that awareness what's actually serving us. And it allows us to make a more conscious shift out of the places that tend to be more self-preservation driven. You know, when we're in these lower levels, unintentional unconscious states, it's the fight or flight mode. It typically is in response to stress and those things that, you know, day to day, even if we don't connect with them all the time, wind up influencing how we feel, what we're thinking, and then ultimately the action or result that might become as a product of it.

It feels like what I'm hearing, and you tell me if I'm aligned with what you're saying, is that the low level, like the low numbers, number 1 to 3, you're more in your reptilian brain, right? You're trying— you feel attacked and you're gonna react, and you're not as thoughtful, you're not as balanced. You haven't had like a chance to, to wear all the thinking hats to look at the situation and respond, or even sometimes you don't need to respond, like just to have a more balanced, holistic view of what's the situation that's in front of you. To be a leader who creates a space, you're just reacting. So that's what I'm hearing. Lower. And also it makes me think of like lower vibrations.

Yes. Yeah. I mean, you're hitting on so many of the, the kind of key points to it, you know, and, and a lot of this work, when I have conversations with people, regardless if they've taken an assessment and kind of evaluated it for themselves, you know, a lot of the work, you know, just comes from my ability to self-reflect and be introspective and realize the things that are kind of pulling me out of where my preferred state might be. I think most of us can probably tie back and think about the times where we've been most effective or successful or we felt a level of joy, whatever. Again, feeling an emotion you want to attach to it. We can get really clear on in those moments what was happening, what was I thinking, what was I doing, and how do I repeat that. But when stressors are introduced, sometimes we habitually create this system for ourselves to manage through it where it's just a part of how we operate. This is life. This is what I can come to expect. I have kids. I'm going to feel this way. I work in this job. And these types of things that are happening are just the reality and not considering that the agency that we have and how we move through it and giving ourselves back a little bit more control over the shit that we make out of it. Instead, in a lot of cases, it will affect us and most of us will go to these places. So it's not about avoiding going to this lower level of energy. Anytime stress is induced from anybody that I've worked with, everybody immediately reacts in that 1 or 2. So it's not necessarily about that it's bad all the time. Sometimes it can actually protect us from feeling embarrassed. It can protect us from feeling sad, covering up maybe some of the insecurities that we're navigating and dealing with. But in most cases, we're not aware that that's happening. It's unconscious and we stay there longer than we need to. And we aren't necessarily considering whether it's serving us or not. And so this work is about creating more awareness and leading to a level of acceptance. Because if we can accept those things about ourselves, it usually allows us to feel more confident in making the shifts that are necessary for us to actually be in the place that we want to be.

And I think what I think is interesting, because I was reading articles about that, and many doctors said that the human is not— fundamentally, we're coming from being animals, the animal brain, and we're supposed to be in fight or flight only when there's a real situation of danger. Like there's a bigger animal, there's a shark that's going to bite me and I need to defend myself. But But now with, let's say, corporate life, of the work life, we can spend months, years, days, like years in the fight or flight state where a very heightened level of cortisol. And we talk about like the worker, it could be women, you accumulate this very high level of cortisol where you're always in that like stress period of stress and then you're not able to really be yourself. You're kind of reacting to life in perpetuity, which is not a natural state. And you're like in— hopefully you're not in hyperfreeze, which is like this level where you're losing connection with yourself. So now my question to you is, how do you get out? Like, you talked about awareness first, being aware that you're in the state, you're in the lower level, you're in the 1 and 2s. How do you evolve through level 3, 4, 5 to have less stress and more balance and less survival and more thriving?

Yeah. I mean, again, I'll be a broken record a bit that it does start with the awareness because it's hard to understand where you want to be without understanding where you currently are. And also, more importantly, accepting that that's the reality. So many times I think we want to— because we get stuck in those places that you're talking about, we feel like we don't have any control over anything. We're kind of the consummate victim of our own circumstances. When that sits in and we even fight against the fact that we are there. So we say that we're not a victim, so we're kind of playing the part while it's actually happening. I think we've all kind of done it at some point in time. When we can realize about ourselves that that tends to be our tendency, but my preference is to be somewhere else, that is really the starting line, I think, for a lot of different people. And then from there, it gets really individually focused. I think having a coach and having people help you kind of unlock what some of those things are are really the catalyst for how people really change behavior. Because I think the connection point that we can make to maybe 10 different stressors in our life, there usually is a common theme related to most of them. Most people that I deal with, and this probably isn't a surprise, a lot of us, human nature based on how we're wired, we do want to control a lot of things in our life. And when we feel like things are spiraling or that we're starting to lose control over things, we do tend to default to that victim mindset, which is kind of that level 1, that lower level. And victim meaning it's not that you're outwardly blaming people for everything else that's going on in your life, but the way that you interpret what's happening to you is by all of the reasons that you might not feel like you have control over. And that can come from a lot of different places. I think most of it for us tends to be driven by insecurities. There's things that we haven't necessarily dealt with. Most of us have experienced some level of trauma throughout our life, and it and look differently, and it carries forward into a lot of what our reality feels like. And if we aren't trying to make the shift outside of that, then it makes it really challenging for the progress. But when we do and you start to shift from— you're talking about through these different levels, right? The shift upwards to a level 7 is changing the conscious decision that you're making, the choice that you have, and realizing that you have it. Now, if I go to a level 2 energy, that typically tends to get more into conflict. There's more confidence in what it is that I'm talking about. I don't necessarily feel like I'm a victim all the time, but I am trying to make a point. And a lot of people can kind of lead in that way, whether it be in, in their personal lives or professional lives. That's kind of the brand that they've created for themselves. And those can lead to short-term wins, you know, because I can get things done quick. I lean in and I'm very directive around the things that I do, but it's really hard to withstand for a long period of time. It like takes a lot of energy to show up in that way, but you you also don't necessarily build strong, meaningful relationships. You tend to damage quite a few, whether it is in your personal or professional life. And when you shift out of level 2 and you realize, okay, well, that's not serving me in the way that I want it to, a level 3 energy is where you start to shift to more of the anabolic energy, which is energy that is positive, it is productive. You start to see other perspectives and points of view as you start to make more of that conscious shift at a level 3 energy. And that usually is more of a— I almost say like a mediation type of environment where it's like—

What is a mediation type of environment?

Well, I'm open to what other people are thinking and feeling instead of the level 2, I'm just going to win at all costs. No matter what. No matter what.

Yeah. I have so many questions. If you're a manager and you have a report who's in level 2 and your report shares that they're doing intense therapy, but they're still level 1 or 2. What do you do?

Tell me more about that.

If you're leading someone and they're always in a fight or flight, still they're able to— because we talked about like driving the results, you're able to strong suit. They have a strong suit, they can deliver the sales numbers, but it's always fight or flight. And the numbers are excellent because you can find a way to strong suit yourself, but it's always this person and that person and anger. And how do you— and they take therapy, but how do you get out of this?

Yeah, it's— I mean, from a leadership standpoint, it's interesting because, you know, when I talk to a lot of leaders that— and it really doesn't matter how big their team is or what industry or business that they're a part of— what winds up happening is it's difficult for the leader if they aren't necessarily really in tune with it to kind of coach through that. With their teams more specifically. So I'll throw out first that it definitely starts with the self-regulation, you know, and is the leader that's kind of trying to help their team or this particular individual navigate through the change or the challenge, are they in a place that actually is open enough, you know, to explore ideas for themselves? But it really does come down to curiosity and coaching specific to the thoughts that are being shared. So normally somebody that is kind of constantly on edge and sharing these these points of view, blaming other people, angry, frustration, they're using words and tones and things like that that are pretty apparent and observable, is to actually share what you're seeing. I'm seeing that this is happening. Yeah. And where's this coming from? And I think when you start to show up more as a coach, you start to separate from what you're equating to drama. You know, in a lot of cases. So I like to talk about the drama triangle, you know, quite a bit. That comes from— there's the leadership triangle, drama triangle comes from The Coaching Habit, which is a program and a book that's out there. Highly suggest checking that out if you haven't already. But the idea is that when somebody, especially a direct report, is in that place, they will tend to bring you into the drama. And so they kind of pull you in based on the situation and what's happening. They pull you into the mud and you have a choice. Once you're in there, you can play one of three roles that they talk about. About in this, this drama triangle. You can play a persecutor and just tell everybody what they're doing wrong and blame them for what's not happening that's right or that isn't right. You can play a victim again and come up with every reason why something isn't working out the way that you want it to. Or you can be a rescuer and you can come in and just solve all the problems of your people. And that's the 3 roles that most leaders will play when you get stuck in the mud, as you were saying, or pulled into the mud. The way to get out is to coach. And so I always come back to— and whether it's related to energy specifically and what you're noticing about somebody and how they're thinking, the emotions and feelings that they're expressing, or ultimately the action and result that they are taking or not taking, you know, coaching is allowing us to get to that place, showing up just genuinely curious, asking open-ended questions that are coaching more of the person and not the problem. 'Cause the challenge with the problem is we kind of stay stuck in the mud. Like, it's hard to disconnect from it as a leader 'cause we want to solve. So then we'll just naturally default to a rescuer. But if I really am seeking to understand what's going on with this individual, this person, and I'm asking questions that relate to it, then it allows me to help them explore and start to move, right? 'Cause if they are stuck in the level 1 and 2, I can ask questions about where they want to be. Where would you prefer to be based on what you're sharing and what you're feeling right now? And that allows for somebody to have that agency, you know, to make a decision whether they want to shift or not.

No, I find it super interesting. Have you been in cases where, like, the person would be in a 1 and 2 and they're not coachable? I mean, they say they're coachable.

Yeah, because it happens.

Sometimes people are— they like the mud.

Yeah, yeah, the mud can feel good at times. And, and you call it a good point. It's actually okay to be in the mud. It's okay to be in those places. It's not that, again, level 1 and level 2 and the reactions of self-preservation mode are bad all the time. It's just, again, am I aware that I'm there first and foremost? And how long am I staying in it? Yeah, there are definitely those plenty of experiences that I've had where people will say that they're coachable and then For instance, we'll show them, show one of these assessments that are taken and it's like, I don't really agree with the fact that this is what happens when I get into stress. And so what's happening is while we're having the conversation, they're getting a stress reaction to seeing on the report that this is actually what happens when they encounter stress. So they're exhibiting the behavior that they say actually they don't believe in. And so it actually opens up. And when you call that out again, the observable piece is so significant when somebody— something's happening in the moment and you do it in a way that's respectful and create that opportunity for somebody to kind of connect with it. That's the moment where people start to see maybe what they've been a little bit more blind to and where it comes from.

And what is it if people want to do the test? Is it the energy test? Where can they go?

They have to work with a certified coach through IPEC. So any IPEC certified coach, including myself, and there are plenty of others around the world. It's a great program. They can do that assessment working with a coach and the results go into detail. It summarizes kind of each of these levels. The report's pretty cool, something that people can use as a framework, not just again in the professional sense, because most will. If you do it thinking about your work, you're just always thinking about how do I apply this to being a better leader or to being better, achieving a higher quota, whatever it might be, instead of of where is this actually showing up? Because I think in most cases, a lot of us forget that this is carrying with us from outside of the professional environment that we're in. This is normally how we're just reacting and responding to things in our life in general.

Yeah, I had a manager at Google who would tell me, she said, a test in terms of if she was in a good place at her job was if she didn't have the energy after work to go in the kitchen and dance with her children. Then it meant that there was a problem in terms of energy management, in terms of prioritization, or how she would be balancing her work. And I thought it was interesting because if you have no energy to give back to your family, which is why you're on this planet, right? If you're having kids and you don't have energy to dance with them or spend time after work, then what is the purpose of, of all that we do? So I think that's a very good Good test. Thank you for sharing. Drama triangle. I love it. I want to go in a different direction.

All right.

You've had a career across Apple, across LinkedIn, across Upwork, across also in biotech, and you also started your own firm. What are your most radical career advice? Especially we're in a weird time right now.

Yeah.

A lot of like post-COVID, there's a lot of layoffs. Layoffs. AI is disrupting the world of work. Some people are stressed about it. Some people are trying to learn as much as they can. What is your radical career advice for the workers of today?

Yeah, I mean, it feels radical to me, I think, just based on some of the work that I do with a lot of leaders and those that are always kind of looking to grow their career. For some, they maybe have not thought about it in these ways in terms of like just the steps that they can take to help, I think, empower themselves maybe a little bit differently. I'd probably say the first one that comes through, I think, in a lot of the day-to-day that we don't pay attention to, especially as leaders, is just stop giving advice. And I know it's easier said than done, but, you know, you and I, you spent some time around me and maybe have heard some of this messaging before. It's hard, like even in an individual contributor role, to just not give advice and direction, you know, sharing everything that we know because we're so wrapped up in the thought that I have to have all of the answers to kind of prove myself in my career and realizing that if I do, if I step away from that and I'm showing up more curious, that how that actually lends to building stronger relationships and leading towards opportunities in my career that maybe wouldn't have been possible if I was just always showing up with the answer and not being vulnerable and talking about the fact that I just, I don't know everything and I don't have all the answers can be actually pretty powerful. That's probably one of the one of the first ones that I talk to a lot of people about because they don't even realize it's just a product of kind of where we've been and how we've recognized success in our career. I'd probably say the other one, you know, this again, this feels radical to some people when I talk to them about it, is like coaching your boss. So we've talked a lot about coaching and usually it comes from the angle of, you know, downward and really helping other people explore what they want for themselves or how they can perform better or what might be getting in their way. The same types of principles can be applied with your leader. And if we think about those that are wanting to explore in their career, as we all know, you know, we're working for somebody that controls a lot of what that destiny looks like for us. You know, we want somebody that is a sponsor that's promoting us and talking about us in really unique ways. But if we don't understand what's really important to them, just like a client, right? I mean, you've been in sales, sales for a while too. Like, we need to understand what motivates them. And the only way really to do that is to ask questions and, again, open-ended questions that get them thinking about what might be most important for them based on the work that I do and how I can show up or how I can support them. It feels reversed, but it can be radical and supportive in your career.

That's my ultimate favorite. Something we did back then at Google, I was an IC, and I think some of the ICs were frustrated. and we did a reverse coaching that was popular at the time. It was probably 2015 reverse coaching. So we had some account strategists and sales that organized and gave feedback to the leaders about our main all hands. And then they kind of rebooted the whole all hands. It was so good. It was so good. It was like, people are brilliant. And that's why I personally believe that you can learn from anyone. And I think the senior leaders really appreciated it. And I mean, personally, I like participative leadership, so getting ideas, but it's not every company culture that likes it. Some people like when it's very hierarchical, that the boss tells everything that you should do. I don't like it. I like to hear the voices. I like dissenting voices. And I like to hear voices from— I like disruptive ideas. And I like voices from the field. I think there are better ideas there than if it's always the most senior people come with, like, I don't know. Boring ideas of how we should do things. I just, I don't know. I think there's freshness from ideas coming from a little bit everywhere. So the reverse coaching, and it was at the time, it was very popular in Silicon Valley and that's where you live. So yeah, reverse coaching was a big thing.

It was such a great story and it's hard for people to try on, but if they just try it on, they can start to realize really quickly that in some cases it actually it helps their leaders show up in a more effective way, you know, because there are, you know, they're always kind of, there's a dependency on them. And then there are times where, you know, especially from a frontline manager perspective, and not to take away from the strategic nature of what maybe a director, senior director, VPs are navigating, but the coaching down to the frontline manager level, sometimes there's a little bit of a gap. And so when you have a direct report asking you questions about what's important to you do as a manager and how can I show up in service of that? It's this valve that's continuing to build up. All of a sudden gets a little bit of a release. And now the manager or the leader can show up in ways that maybe they haven't even been considering because now you're creating just authentic, genuine connection and curiosity. So I love that you have experienced that for a period of time.

Because I just feel like when there's trust— because at the end, when you're a leader, you want your team to be productive and happy. And sometimes you can't read minds. I remember once my team, my team told me, oh, Kath can't read minds. And I was like, what?

Maybe I can, I'm just not telling you.

What? I can— I'm like, some people thought I could read minds. I was like, oh, that's great. And people are like, oh, she can't read minds, we have to tell her what we want. I'm like, yeah, hello. But I think it's It's just so— I think it's so powerful when like the energy flows and there's trust and everybody can just— I can say what I would like, but I want to know what you would like. And then we're not going to be able to do everything, but if people can express themselves, then we can collaborate in creating something that works. We're not going to be able to do every single thing, but over time we're going to be able to create some bliss. And I think that's what creates magic and everybody can be happy at work a little bit.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. So well said.

So what's your third radical career advice?

Oh, I mean, I think this is just showing up in everything that I do in my life at this point, but it's like revealing the things that you would normally hide. You know, we compartmentalize so much in our life in general. And then when you then bring it into work, you know, and not everywhere, I think there are cultures, there are teams that embrace a level of vulnerability. But, you know, for me, that being kind of a part of my brand and being open to reveal the things that are hard, the things that I don't know, being really honest about that and sometimes bringing in the, you know, the external pieces, you know, those real life pieces that we hide from people because, you know, we're scared that they're going to look at us differently or question whether we can add value. Again, the limiting beliefs are real and they wind up showing up and for a lot of people in some really damaging ways. And sometimes just sitting in the discomfort of what those are with other people and for them to see those other sides can be pretty powerful. So that's a radical one, just to show up with more vulnerability, not hide at all.

So removing all the masks.

Yes. Yes.

And do you think it applies also for, I'm going to say, Black women?

I think it applies for everybody. If I think about myself, even as a parent, and then when you look at just difference in general across so many different elements, I think we all have a story. If we don't tell it, then how do we expect other people to maybe show up in the ways that we need them to if we're not sharing those parts? And if they are covered by a mask and we're not allowing everybody to see it, then I mean, I hate to say it sometimes, but we wind up being the person to blame for that. And that's where we can fall into that level 1 energy. We can be a victim to everything and feel like we just don't have any agency related to it when we actually have a choice in everything.

Yeah, I mean, I love that. Personally, I've been sharing myself a lot on LinkedIn. I talked about my miscarriages, my postpartum depression, all of these things. And I was reading Fawn Weaver's book about Love and Whiskey. So she created that billion-dollar empire, and she's a Black woman, and she said, listen, for Black women, sometimes it's better to just tell the story after and to share lessons and solve. Because Black women are attacked more in, in America, and I've had cases where I could share myself and be vulnerable but I've had a lot of cases where I was attacked, like radically attacked. So where I can be safe. That's fine. I'm still, still I rise.

Yeah, it's definitely not, definitely not fine, but it's beautiful that you're where you are. And so much of that comes down to facing it in some ways. And I can't pretend to understand your experience and others can't understand mine until we start to tell those So I love that you're sharing some of those. What I say, people talk about being broken as it relates to some of those life experiences and trauma. And I think some of the language that I've used even for myself, and I've shared pretty openly around my journey of sobriety and how that's changed and saved my life in so many ways that I'm like beautifully deconstructed is kind of the language that I prefer to use versus as broken as when I start to separate all the pieces, I realize that, you know, in the end, it's just like all these wonderful things that people just don't know about me yet. And, you know, I continue to have an opportunity to grow and evolve based on, you know, those things that I'm learning about myself and sharing with others.

What do you mean by beautifully deconstructed relating to your sobriety?

Yeah, well, I mean, I think just in general, generally, those things about ourselves that we connect with that we're the most proud of. We can get to a place in our life, whether it's any kind of alcohol abuse. I mean, just think of anything emotionally that we tend to experience. A lot of people will reference it as just like, I'm just broken. Whether it's people not feeling loved, I'm lonely, I don't have friends or family, I'm not successful in my career, I'm not worthy. All of those.

But we don't have to be ashamed of that. But I understand Black maternal health was happening every year, and I read all the stories and I I was like, I want to share my story, but not this year. And the reason why I didn't want to share my story was because it was just very painful. It was painful. Um, I didn't feel anything because I was under epidural. It was very painful. It was just like the blood and the— my doctor was screaming. It was a lot of drama. Mia was just like, yeah, yeah, just— you gave me the drugs, I was happy. Everybody around me was kind of freaking out and then I could have died. So, and I was like, oh, not this year. I'm not ready to share it on LinkedIn. So, but I understand what you mean. Thank you for sharing.

Yeah, you're welcome. Well, thank you too. I mean, it's all these, all these things are, you know, a book that I always go back to and I actually connect a lot of our conversation today to it, you know, around conscious leadership and, you know, these energy levels kind of connect really nicely to it. and the whole thought is like, you know, when we kind of come at situations or things from like below the line or above the line.

Yeah.

And so below the line is everything's happening to me. And, you know, above the line is it's by me. And like almost what you described in terms of even the decision that we make to share some of these things and feeling, you know, comfortable enough that if I'm making it, it's because it's by me, you know, that I really have a choice in what this is and how I tell the story or share this insight or information about me that maybe somebody doesn't know is pretty powerful when you start to unpack that. And for me, that's, I think, my journey again through sobriety and making a decision to share. And I shared publicly on LinkedIn and there are stigmas attached to that in the professional sense and things that people avoid naturally. I just found a lot of comfort in doing that for myself. It was a different level of empowerment for sure.

You realize that you're free and then that there's a lot of people who don't want to share or not comfortable sharing, and then you're opening the doors. And yeah, I think it's very powerful, and thank you for sharing.

You're welcome.

You've had a very prolific career working in different companies. A lot of people want to be able to grow their career. It's— I feel like, I feel like we've been lucky because I feel like it's so tumultuous, and I was like, If I started my career today, what would I do? What are some 3 career tips that you would give to people today to accelerate their career?

I mean, a lot of them haven't probably changed for me over the last 10 years. I always come back to them in general when I'm thinking about my career or the place that I want to be in general. I mean, even before maybe even getting to some of the tips is thinking about the company that you're working for and does it align with something that you're passionate about that you have an interest in? Does it align with your values? Because I think so much of our time is spent working at places where we just don't have a genuine interest in what they do. And lucky for me, I've been at every place that I've been since I was young. Has excited me in some way, shape, or form. And some of that is tied to my current state, the reality that I'm in. And, you know, that evolves and changes over time, obviously. But as a product of that, once that place is identified and you're there, I mean, I think one of the tips that I've shared quite a bit when I first joined LinkedIn and you had a lot of new employees that were coming in trying to understand how LinkedIn monetized, how did it operate and work. And it really just came down to the fact that in most companies, and you'll still find this today, that a lot of people don't learn everything that they can about kind of the ecosystem of how the business operates. And I just, I find that to be shocking still to this day because the more that you understand about how everything else kind of feeds into the work that you do, the more confident you are in actually what you're contributing to, I think, in a lot of different ways, which is the next tip, which is like getting really clear on how your work actually aligns to what the company is trying to achieve, whether that's a mission or a vision, broader goals. Every company is going to be different in the way that they look at that. But if I have like a level, I can start to tie a level of purpose to what I'm showing up and doing every single day, creates a level of motivation again, because I now see the impact that I'm having connected to this bigger thing. And that's hard for people in G&A roles, right, in finance or, you know, legal in some cases. If you're in sales, like, you're driving revenue. So for sales teams, in most cases, it's pretty clear to say, like, this is the value that I'm adding.

Surprised? Yeah. Well, you know, you're sending employee surveys.

That's true. I can't argue that. We could have a whole other episode just on that. But in terms of, like, some of those roles that aren't maybe as directly connected, I think just continuing to get really clear on like how are you impacting the business as it connects to the broader vision? And then, I mean, the final thing, I talk about this with my kids right now as they're starting to finish college and they're out on their own. And this is even just outside of like maybe broader career, but just like lean into the discomfort like as much as you can. I think my career over a period of time, I would avoid the discomfort like most of us would. The grass was always greener. I'd start to explore something else and not realizing that it actually was my own issue of not being at peace with where I was, not owning the things that I could own. I was sitting in maybe a level 1 more often than I needed to, blaming everything, whether it be the business, the leadership, everything that was outside of my control, instead of realizing, wow, I had a lot more agency in what I'm doing here every single day. So, yeah, leaning into the discomfort is a big one for me.

Tell me, and all I could see was all the employee surveys and all the companies I've been in where it's like leadership in all caps and leadership should know that.

Yeah.

What was the area of discomfort that you did not want to lean in earlier in your career?

Well, that's a great question. I think for me, I didn't, I didn't want to acknowledge where I had deficiency, which was the discomfort, you know, that like we'll say early on, you know, I was, I was a leader at a young age, so I didn't really know. I didn't know what I didn't know. Some of the fake it till you make it, you know, came into play and faked it pretty well. There were, you know, there were opportunities like as an operator to be more strategic, to, I think, collaborate cross-functionally in a more effective way. Because I, again, I wanted to— I felt that if I was doing that, I was taking away from what I was capable of really doing and not realizing that if I worked through other people and they felt a level of empowerment in whatever it was that we were trying to achieve, that I was still going to get recognized recognized for the effort and the work. And so I would try to do so much of it on my own versus realizing I just, I couldn't or I didn't know how to do it, but I never wanted to really admit to it. And so I avoided leaning into the discomfort of sharing that I just, I couldn't do it or I wasn't as effective or I needed help, probably was the biggest thing. I didn't ask for help very often. That's a place a lot of us are in our careers, especially large organizations. I mean, thinking about what's going on and the way the market is today and people are losing their jobs and being replaced for various reasons or companies are making decisions and we can quickly realize that we're expendable and admitting that we might not know something, that's a risk for a lot of people. And that's early on in my career was like a big part of probably how I made a lot of my decisions because of fear.

You're not the only one. What I would say, because I have 20 years, 20 years in tech, I think first-time managers, the, like, the trainings that's given, even if you have an MBA, the training that's given, the guidance that's given, everybody's hiding. Some of the words that I've heard is, or like, the advice that I've heard is like, this is horrible. My profile is I'm a truth seeker, and people don't like truth seekers because I just want to know the truth because I want to go to the core of the problem. And people, no, no, no, just go and put it under the carpet and nobody wants to hear about it. So I think it's the opposite is— I've seen the opposite is more common, that everybody wants to hide and look good and get promoted quickly. Not a lot of people are interested in getting to the bottom of things because getting to the bottom of the problem might open— that's another expression that's not great— the Pandora's box of the different problems in organization. I think a lot of the things that we're seeing with, with the layoffs is that we're seeing a lot of companies that had a lot of inefficiencies that you don't see in a growing market. In a growing market, when we're growing 30 to 40%, it's fine. We can have a lot of redundancy. You can hire a lot of people. But now if you go and you, you want to try to grow companies in AI AI is answering a lot of the different— it's— there's different behaviors and the behavior change and how consumers are looking for things. So it's— there's a shift. Yeah, shift. And it means that also there's a shift in the skill set. I mean, LinkedIn's all about skills, so we got to evolve our skill set too.

Yeah. Well, and you're hitting the one— I mean, that's the discomfort that a lot of people are— I think there are quite a few people that are leaning in, even in businesses where you wouldn't expect it, uh, what is the change, you know? And AI is changing, it's evolving and affecting that efficiency, the speed, everything that you're talking about. And for me, if I thought about myself, maybe even at this age or where my kids are right now, lean into that. If you don't have a level of knowledge and how it connects to anything that you want to do in your life, do that now because that, I think, is such a big discomfort in terms of how it's going to manifest for people. And so if you're in a current job professionally, entry-level, senior, it doesn't really matter. You know, your job is evolving as a product of it. So the more that you again lean into that discomfort, you're going to start to see a change.

Yeah. Become a learner. And that's critical. Parting words. 5 things you wish you knew 20 years ago.

Oh, man. So much. So much. I mean, relationships. I mean, they really do matter to me, but I see them as like the most valuable currency for sure. You know, in the way that I think about where I am today and what it's allowed me to do. I didn't really understand that back then. I wish I would have leveraged them even more at a young age. I think believing that I added value would have been significant, you know, the fake it till you make it. I don't think I, until later in my career, probably even the last 5 years, have been able to acknowledge that I add value. It's always been my kind of gremlin or limiting belief that's hid there. And it's probably held me back from doing things that I've wanted to do or could do even better. I'd probably say how important my emotional regulation would affect my work performance. That's it. I never did therapy or had coaches when I was a younger professional. And so the more that I got into coaching and understanding how it was affecting teams and experiencing it for myself, not just being a coach for other people, but actually getting coaching on a consistent basis, seeing a therapist to help me kind of unpack where these things were coming from and help me with that emotional regulation was pretty significant. Well, I mean, I wish I would have realized this, like, just being loved and respected by my kids and my family was all the validation that I needed. You know, when we're kind of early in our career, just in life in general, I don't care how old we are, you know, we're always seeking some level of validation. And, you know, for me, I wish I would have realized, you know, instead of spending so much time and energy in the places that I didn't need it that would have been life-changing earlier on. But if we learn from it at some point, that's all that matters. It's just a part of the growth. And the final thing, I think for everybody probably will get this too, is I always have a choice.

Yeah.

Talk about this often with people like, well, I don't have a choice. I can't do this. And it's like, actually, you have a choice. I had a choice to not come on here today with you, which would have been a terrible choice, but I had it. And every day, everything that we feel like that's outside of our control actually is. We might love the consequences related to the choice that we make. But, you know, we always have a choice.

So thank you for coming. I think it was a great conversation.

I loved it. Enjoyed it.

Yeah. I feel like I've learned so much. There's so many books that you mentioned that I'm going to link back. I think I took random notes. I think you talked about Conscious Leadership. You talked about— oh my God. Yeah, my notes were not the best.

Coaching Habits. Bit.

Coaching Habits, Conscious Leadership, what else?

And there is a book on energy leadership, so it's written by Bruce Schneider, who founded the IPEC Coaching Institute. It's a great book, tells a story of how it's all applied to a company that he worked with, so it's, it's all relevant. They're all great reads, easy, applicable, you know, something that you can put into place and take action on right away.

Thank you so much for making the time, Jason. I'm so excited. Thank you for bringing your energy. I'm feeling the energy through the screen. Have fun on Tinton Beach, and, uh, yeah, and enjoy the empty nesting phase, which I have no idea what it is because my son is 5 years old.

So you got some time, you got some time.

I have a lot of time. So have a good one. [MUSIC] [MUSIC]