The Lost Art of SEX. Reclaim Your Sexuality with Dr. Sara Chadwick

Yeah, when was the last time that you just made out with somebody for hours and just deeply enjoyed how fun and sexy that can be? You know, it's like this, this hyperfocus on genital sex is just constricting the ways that we can be sexual beings in other ways. You know, go make out with your partner, you know, in a park somewhere for like an hour without worrying about whether it's going to lead to intercourse or orgasm or something. And creating a more expansive vision of what sexuality what sex can look like can be really exciting and I think great for women's sexual lives.

Welcome to Driving Impact. I want to welcome you to Driving Impact and today, uh, for our Hive, we're Driving Impact Hive. I want to introduce Dr. Sarah Chadwick. We met in an amazing trip. We were in Bali with one of our friends. We had an amazing experience going to temples and exploring the nature and villas and meeting amazing charcoal bowls and eating dragon fruits. And at the same time, we had conversations about important topics over time. To know a little bit more about Dr. Chadwick, she's a feminist social psychologist. Who uses diverse methods like surveys, interviews, but also national databases and approaches to be able to decipher complex problems and analyze gray areas in the domains of psychology, women's studies, public health, gender studies. Warm welcome to Driving Impact. We're so excited to have you today.

Thank you so much. It's such a joy to be here. It's been so lovely to sort of hear about you and this amazing podcast that you have, and I'm really grateful to be able to be here and talk about my work, which I think is really meaningful for people's sexual lives.

Thank you. What was the catalyst that helped you find this area of practice that you do?

Sure. Yeah. So I actually got my undergraduate degree in psychology at the University of Michigan. And while I was there, I took a psychology of human sexuality class with Dr. Terri Conley, and it just really opened my world. You know, she brought in all of these different guest speakers who were just who came in to talk about their sex lives. So polyamorous folks, people who had disabilities, people who were involved in dom and sub relationships, just to sort of teach us about all the different ways that people have sex, have sexual lives, the different considerations that go into that. And I just thought that that was so important for thinking about the ways that we move through the world. And so after that, I started volunteering as a research assistant in her lab, and I learned a lot about the research process. How to ask exciting research questions and run data analyses. And from there, I actually ended up working with another professor at the University of Michigan named Dr. Sari Van Anders. And so I became a research assistant in her lab and then eventually went on to do my PhD in gender and women's studies and psychology. So there's a joint program at the University of Michigan. And so, yeah, it all, it all really started from that initial class that I took as an undergraduate. And as I got more and more involved in the research process, I just thought it was a really important way to sort of understand people's real problems, understand sexuality from diverse perspectives. And also specifically at the University of Michigan, they have this really amazing sort of feminist approach to looking at social issues and specifically looking at sexuality. And so I became a feminist psychologist who studies sexuality from a variety of different angles. I'm particularly interested in sexual minority folks and gender minority folks, thinking about sort of gender and how these different social norms impact sexuality in a variety of ways.

How would you describe what you do? Because I mean, you're a feminist, you're a social psychologist. Like, if you have to define exactly what you do.

Yeah. Yeah. So my main focus is I conduct research. And so a lot of what I do is I ask, you know, I put together surveys where I ask people questions about their sex lives, about their relationships. I do a lot of online surveys. I do some in-person interviews with folks, and then I sort of analyze that data to look for patterns. And so whether that's using statistical analyses to look for patterns in how people answer questions or just looking for patterns in the ways that people talk about things in their interviews. So those are the main ways that I conduct research. I also teach classes as a professor at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. And so I teach classes like Science and Sexuality, which sort of teaches undergraduates about how science works through the study of sexuality and through sexuality science. I teach now— I now teach Psychology of Human Sexuality, which was the course that originally inspired me. And then I also teach research methods using gender and women's studies approaches to graduate students.

And that's very interesting. And can I call you Sarah?

Yeah, yeah, of course.

Awesome. And so when you think about life, right, and trying to— people are trying to figure out their purpose, their path. So what's driving them back? To look at passion, purpose, and then impact, right? If you can find your passions, and ideally you find your purpose, and then you can drive even more impact when all of these elements are aligned. So what is your purpose in life?

Yes, yeah, that's a great question. So as I've been studying these topics, one of the things that has really spoken to me is that people have so many different types of experiences, particularly when it comes to sexuality, that are often negative or problematic, or they just feel— they get the ick, they feel icky. And there's not a framework for understanding why we have these negative feelings about that. And so I'm really interested in trying to— this is why I study what I call gray area experiences of coercion, among other things. But I'm really interested in understanding sort of the the trends that happen in people's sexual lives that we don't have names for yet. So we often— we talk a lot about assault, about rape, about sexual coercion in sort of these traditional ways. But I think there are a lot of things that still feel negative in people's sexual lives or the ways that they're interacting with their partners that we don't actually have a name for yet. And it doesn't fall into traditional definitions of coercion or assault. And so a lot of people are walking through the world feeling like, you know, I just don't feel great about how my sex life is going, about this interaction that I had the other day. And yet, according to typical scripts or cultural norms, nothing— there's nothing wrong. And so, sort of, so, so, yeah. So I'm really interested in making— in helping people to identify and understand what those experiences look like.

And I think it's important because when you think about our sexual education, I'm born in Canada, so we had sex ed, and it was very limited what we've learned. It's very— it was like technical of like how not to get pregnant and how babies are made, and— but there was nothing like about polyamory, or like, it's a bit complicated because religion was also involved, etc. So there's not like really a lot of depth in terms of like sexual— sexuality, or even like the concept of sexuality. I did take classes women's studies and about gender, etc., but there's a limitation in terms of like all those concepts and for different reasons, right? Because you have classrooms, people coming from different backgrounds. So what I wanted to start with and kick things off, because it's a vast topic and I think it's important, I want to talk about just 3 areas that we talked about when we were in Bali together, of the gray area social phenomenons that you've uncovered that you are pervasive today So first thing is, what is orgasm coercion?

Yeah, so orgasm coercion is one of my main studies, and essentially it refers to pressuring a sexual partner to have an orgasm. And I typically define it as putting pressure on somebody to have an orgasm by implying that there'll be negative consequences if they don't have an orgasm. And this is something that I think happens quite a lot as cultural norms change and there's this emphasis on both partners having orgasms during every single sexual encounter, as we see this increase in focus on women's pleasure. But even for men, this idea that everyone is supposed to have an orgasm all the time, it seems like it's a positive thing.

Oh, my partner really wants me to be like— this idea that an orgasm is supposed to be very positive. Somebody would want you to have an orgasm. Is a positive experience. What I'm hearing is an undertone of something that's negative because there's a pressure about the performance and outcome.

Exactly. Yeah. And it's complicated, you know, and that's why I call it a gray area because, you know, on one hand it's like somebody might want you to have an orgasm, but they might be like, well, but I'll be kind of upset if you don't have an orgasm. Or come on, have an orgasm, have an orgasm, let's go. Or you might say something like, hey, I'm tired, I could be done, I could be done with sex now. And they say, "Well, I don't want to stop until you have an orgasm because otherwise it means that the sex was bad." And, you know, there's— on one hand, we could see that as a focus on wanting an orgasm to happen and wanting there to be pleasure, but once you start to put pressure on somebody in a way that makes them feel as though you're going to be disappointed or upset or angry if that orgasm doesn't happen, then it's really not about facilitating that other person's pleasure so much as it is about sort of feeding into your own ego or your own desires or sort of your vision of what good sex looks like. And so my, you know, a lot of my research is really focused on when we put pressure on people or we create situations where it's kind of, it removes choice, it removes agency. So when I'm thinking about orgasm coercion, yeah, on one hand, it might reflect somebody's deep investment in somebody's pleasure and their partner's pleasure. But on the other hand, making somebody feel as though there's going to be a negative consequence if they don't orgasm is problematic. That's going to make the person feel bad. It's going to make them feel as though they have to have an orgasm in order to please their partner, rather than have an orgasm because it feels good.

So where is that coming from? And, and I have all sorts of thoughts, right? Is it like performance culture? Is it like— what about the opposite? Like, what if your partner cares about you having orgasms?

Yeah, that's also not great, right? Like, um, yeah, good, good sex is really coming from, you know, you want your partner to have a pleasurable experience. And I love the word pleasurable because it's just so broad. And there's such a— there could be such a comprehensive vision of what pleasure looks like, right? And so to me, if I'm thinking about maximizing pleasure in a sexual encounter, it's about, you know, certainly physical pleasure, but also about intimacy, about safety, about exploration, about kinkiness, about all of these things. And you— and It's not— it's about the absence of coercion or pressure or making somebody feel as though they have to do something that they don't want to do. Now, I want to be clear that I'm not talking about like— there are certainly BDSM communities and some folks who integrate pressure and coercion into their sex lives in ways that is pleasurable for them. But I want to note that that's consensual, you know, forms of pressure. So that, that does exist. But when—

we're talking like we're doing an interview, but whether people are different countries, cultural context, so this conversation could be interpreted in different ways, right?

Exactly, exactly.

A little bit about what is an orgasm a little bit later as well, because like we have to define what is an orgasm, and we don't even know if everybody has orgasm, right?

Yeah, I mean, and that's a great question because Even the scientists have not come to a definitive conclusion about what is an orgasm. Certainly, there are a lot of signs. You know, it's— people describe it as this sort of, you know, intense pleasure, this sort of peak. It can be muscular contractions, you know, but it can feel really different depending on the context, depending on the sexual encounter. It might feel one way with one partner, a different way with another partner. One way one day, a different way another day.

Yeah.

So there's certainly a set of, you know, bodily and potentially biological and neurological signals that come along with— that often come along with orgasms. But even then, it's like, yeah, what is an orgasm? It could be a lot of different things. It might look different depending on the day.

Because it's not like there's a school of orgasms. It's not like, okay, well, everybody on this planet, you get to school and this defines— there's no parameter, right? There's no, right, informal coaching. It's like you teach yourself, or like everybody's got a journey. So when we talk about like, this is something that's very personal and it's a little bit of a journey of yourself, your family, your like your upbringing. So it's kind of like when you go into this relationship with a person, and we talk about orgasm as core, you have a partner pressuring another person to have an orgasm. And if the person hasn't had an orgasm before, this pressure could be felt in an even increased way. If the person has had an orgasm before, but it's not happening with this partner, what could be the potential reaction of the partner who's trying to make sure that their partner has an orgasm? Because this phenomenon, like, the first time I ever hear about this, And I've never been aware of it. So I think that this gray area, I do think it's interesting. Never heard of this.

Yeah. Um, you know, and I think that so much of that could be, yeah, it's determined based on so many factors. Like if people are thinking like, okay, well my partner needs to have an orgasm in order for this to be a successful sexual encounter, either because it shows that I'm a good partner or because I want them to have pleasure. But then it's like, okay, well yeah, what does an orgasm look like? A lot of people learn from porn, which is not necessarily representative of what orgasms look like. So, in order for somebody to have an orgasm, do they have to moan and scream and, you know, bang on the wall and make certain noises? Can it be silent? What does that have to look like? And you have to say, like, "Oh, I'm having an orgasm. I'm coming right now." And, you know, people might experience pleasure in a variety of different ways, and they might express that in a variety of different ways. And I think that when we have a singular expectation for what an orgasm is supposed to look or feel like, that really constricts the possibilities for what pleasure can actually look like for people. And certainly it's like, you know, sexual encounters and maximizing pleasure is about both partners coming together and, you know, speaking to their own pleasures in different ways. And I think that's fine. But once you start putting pressure on the other person or making them feel bad or guilty, or like they're doing something wrong, or that this is not the best way to have pleasure, that runs the risk of making people, I don't know, creating sexual shame, making people feel like there's something wrong with their bodies, making people feel as though they have medical issues that they may not have. And this really sort of feeds into this idea that, you know, like a great sex life is about people being able to explore and communicate and feel pleasures in the ways that make sense to them. When we constrict that, it just creates a lot of risks for people's sexual happiness and well-being.

So how do people unlock this sexual coercion or orgasm coercion phenomenon? How do you get out of this if you're in a couple with somebody and you feel that you're part of this dynamic?

Yeah, well, I think that's a complicated question because on one hand, we would hope that good communication is what would prevent that or stop that, right? Like, so if somebody says, hey, you know, "Hey, when you were telling me that, you know, if I didn't orgasm, you'd be upset, you know, that felt really pressuring to me. And I'd really like to not have pressure or coercion as a part of our sexual relationship." You would hope that most partners would be understanding and say, "Oh my God, of course, like, I won't do that again," or, "I'm sorry that I pressured you in the first place." And so ideally, that's how that conversation would go. However, because we have all these social norms, because we have gendered norms, You know, I actually have one research study where we look at how people respond when their partner confronts them about this, the orgasm coercion. So we say, okay, you know, what happened when your partner pressured you to have an orgasm? And a lot of people will say, okay, I asked them to stop. I told them politely that I'm, you know, I'm not into that. You know, sometimes I just, you know, They'll say a lot of different things, sometimes really nicely, sometimes they'll be a little snarky about it. But regardless, the problem is that most people still seem pretty defensive when somebody confronts them about orgasm coercion. So their partner says, "Hey, you know, I felt kind of pressured. I didn't really like that." And they'll say like, "Well, you know, I'm just interested in your pleasure. And so, you know, how could you feel, find that pressuring when it's just me who cares about you?" I'm just doing what I'm supposed to do and nobody else had a problem with it. And people tend to get really defensive when they're confronted with sort of their own behaviors. And so I think there's a key there of being open and vulnerable to communication about sexuality with partners, which I think is really hard to accomplish in even, even relatively healthy and communicative couples. And so it's unclear whether that's an interpersonal issue or whether that's more of a cultural social issue where people struggle to sort of be open and talk about their sexual problems.

Yeah, I'm just wondering how many people actually speak up, right, versus just be like, okay, I'm gonna try to, to have one to please you.

Yeah, I'm not totally sure. That's something we still need to study in some of our research. In that study, that, that wasn't exactly a question. It's like, okay, so we had probably like, I think it was around 300 people who had ever been pressured, and I think Within that particular sample, I want to say there was about 100 people who at some point had said something. So we were just asking them about any occasion where they've confronted their partner about that pressure to orgasm. And then we sort of looked at, you know, what did you say? And then what did your partner say? And how did you react? To sort of try to understand what that back and forth might look like as a part of people's sex lives. And so it seems like some people do say something, but, you know, one of the issues that happens is If you say something one or two times, "Hey, you know, I didn't really like this," or, you know, "I didn't appreciate feeling pressured," or, "I'd rather not do that again," and your partner responds in a really negative way, or they respond with more coercion, or they get really defensive, then it's far less likely that you're going to say something again because you've learned that it's just going to cause more problems than help. And so this is one of the issues that also happens with coercion is it really can restrict good and positive communication.

What's the best way for couples to have conversations about their sex life such that there's a positive outcome where there's openness and it reduces friction?

Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think that probably couples could follow typical communication techniques for communicating about other issues and conflicts and tensions as well, where, you know, try like coming— definitely not talking about it during sex because that can be a sensitive time. So talking about it maybe during a neutral time, Maybe bringing it to your partner and trying to start with sort of an open and vulnerable place. So, you know, hey, I'd really love to talk about our sex life. You know, I just am excited to improve how things are going, or, you know, there's some things I want to try or some things, you know, that I just feel like as somebody I really love and trust, like, this is something I'd love to be able to talk to you about. And trying to come to partners with sort of that level of openness and team building and really trying to avoid putting blame on partners, criticizing. Those are things that are not going to go well typically. And so, so hopefully, you know, positive communication often looks like that sort of open communication, lack of— not criticizing and more so talking about your needs and co-constructing with your partner how those needs can be met.

And it seems like it has to be in a different context, like you could be hiking or having a picnic and talk about, about that topic. That's cool. Yes. I want to jump into the second phenomenon, which is the— I love this word because I feel like it's a mouthful— the heteronormativity theory of low sexual desire in women partners. What is this?

Yes, I love this theory so much. It's so good. So this is a theory that was created So I'm a co-author on this paper and on this theory, but it's Dr. Sari Van Anders, Lori Brado, Debbie Herbenick, Emily Harris, and myself are all co-authors on this paper. And sort of this theory presents the idea that, you know, okay, so let me, let me start from the beginning, is that women who are partnered with men often have lower sexual desire than their men partners. Not everyone, but it's quite common. Typically, it's, you know, it's often women who are complaining about their men partners wanting to have sex with them a lot more than they would like to. And then there's a lot of men out there. Yeah.

Uh-huh. Is there a percentage of like, do you know?

Sure. So, I mean, that's, that's something that we actually don't totally know, which is part of what this theory talks about is like, what even is low desire? Like, are these percentages even accurate? What we do know is that there's a lot of women who complain about this and who, you know, talk about, you know, they just don't have the same sexual desire for their men partners that they used to. And so a lot of people think that that's an individual or interpersonal issue. That's an issue of that relationship or of that couple. But when you start to see the same pattern across many, many people, you know, there's so many different women who have low desire, like in their relationship with their men partners. You have to start to ask, like, is it really just an individual or interpersonal issue, or is it sort of a bigger cultural phenomenon? Now, a lot of biologists would say like, oh, well, maybe it's just because of hormones. And that's why women have lower desire than men partners. But, um, there's actually a lot of research on hormones that say that sort of refutes some of that information. Um, and so what this theory proposes is that it's actually cultural norms that are negatively impacting women's desire with their men partners. And specifically, we say that, you know, inequities in household labor. So the fact that women and men, especially when they move in together, women tend to do way more of the household chores. So they have less time for leisure. They're more stressed out. They have more things to worry about. They have a lot more work that they have to do. And, you know, having all of that work and all of that labor on your plate is not sexy, right? Like it doesn't, inspire desire for that partner. The second element is this idea that a lot of women often feel as though their men partners are just another child that they have. They have to make appointments for them. They clean up after them. They make them snacks. You know, they organize the social events, AKA playdates. You know, like, like there's often women who joke about like, oh, you know, I have two kids and a husband, right? Like, they feel as though their husband is sort of their third child. And you know who women do not want to have sex with? Is their children, right? Like, that's— it's not hot when you feel as though your partner is just another child that you have to take care of. And so that kind of dynamic contributes to negative desire in women. Also, in the theory, we talk about how there's other sort of structural elements in our culture that are not great for women's desires. So objectification, you know, being treated as though you are a sex object instead of a full person. So this idea that, you know, women are objectified objectified in the media, they're objectified by men on the streets, they're objectified by their partners. And this idea that women are sort of always treated as though they are sexual objects is not conducive to desire. You know, women have to constantly worry about the way that they look, about their weight. Are they sexy enough? Are they hot enough? Are they shaved? Are they— do they smell good? You know, that's a lot of things to think about and worry about. And it doesn't give you a lot of space to be like, well, what do I want? Who do I want to be as a sexual person? Yes, yeah, I could go on and on about it. I mean, I guess we'll talk more because it's— I think it's amazing.

I think a lot of them back— so let's double-click on the objectification of women. If you think about, I'm a woman and I'm objectified in the bedroom, then suddenly it becomes— it could become a performance, right? And suddenly I would have to be Naomi Crawford feel comfortable having sexual intercourse with my partner. And then if we add on top of that that I have to perform and somebody wants me to have orgasms that have to be as great or as performative as, I don't know, porn blah blah blah number 506, then it becomes a bit of a chore, right?

And yep, exactly.

What would the ideal setup be for a woman to be fully self-expressed and enjoy her sexual life without feeling that she has— it has to be performative, that she doesn't have to judge herself? Like, have you seen examples of women or cultural— like, certain types of women that feel that they can enjoy themselves and let loose?

Sure. I mean, yeah, I think that having a really supportive partner is key. So having somebody who loves you and thinks you're sexy no matter your weight, no matter if you're wearing makeup, no matter what your hair looks like, no matter what you're wearing, that's definitely a start, I think, for not feeling as though you have to be a particular way in order to be sexy or feel sexy. You know, because there's a lot of men in particular out there who do have really high expectations for, you know, what their women partners look like and how they dress and how they act. I think that also just men being very open to exploring women's desires on their own terms. You know, a lot of times, at least in sex with between women and men, they prioritize intercourse, right? Like it's all about the penis and the vagina, in-out motion, right? And that's really something that prioritizes men's pleasure. That's really focusing on the penis as the central place of pleasure. Actually, intercourse Intercourse is not super pleasurable for a lot of women, at least in terms of leading to an orgasm. Typically, some kind of clitoral stimulation needs to be happening. Now, certainly there's many women who orgasm from intercourse, but there's also a high number of women who need some kind of clitoral stimulation, either with their hand, either oral sex, a vibrator, you know, rubbing against the clitoris in some way in order for orgasm to happen. And so I think that You know, in order to pursue in mathematics in terms of like, like, what's the percentage of women who need—

who could like have orgasms or experience orgasms without any clitoral stimulation?

I do have a statistic for that. It might take me a second to find it, if you don't mind.

I'm just like, I was having a conversation with my girlfriend last week about that. She hasn't had sex with her husband in like 8 years.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

So I, yeah. And, and, you know, the thing is, is that it's, it's completely normal to not have orgasms during intercourse without clit. Like, you know, all of these things I wanna be very clear are normal. Right? It's just that there's this pressure for penis and vagina intercourse to be like sort of the main event, even though it may or may not be the thing that leads to women's orgasms. So there's a study by Debbie Herbenick and some of her colleagues, and Debbie Herbenick is like an excellent researcher who does a lot of nationally representative studies. And so what she found is that about 18% of women report reported that intercourse alone was sufficient for them to orgasm.

18%.

Yes, which is pretty low.

18% of women can orgasm with intercourse. And intercourse means penetration from—

yeah, without any stimulation of the clitoris. So, um, they also say that, like, so if you're having intercourse and stimulating the clitoris at the same time that number goes up to about 37%. And then— Still low. It's still low, yeah.

So 37% of women can experience an orgasm if they have clitoridal stimulation and intercourse, which is penetration.

Yeah, at the same time. Yeah, so the numbers are a lot lower than I think people realize. You know, typically, you know, women's orgasms, the rate of women's orgasms goes up like a ton when there's more manual stimulation, you spend more time, you know, using fingers, with oral sex, vibrators. And also if you spend more time on a lot of that potentially before intercourse, that can also help because, you know, women need time to get warmed up in order to, yeah, get aroused. And so, yeah, the idea that like intercourse is the thing that's gonna lead to women's orgasms is just not totally true. And it's unfortunate that we, continue to rely on that message. Like, actually, much more diverse sexual behaviors is probably more likely to lead to women's orgasms.

Because basically 63%, like, like, what happens with the 63%? So like, 63% will not have experience with orgasms after all of these activities have happened, right?

What else does she say here? So I mean, it's not that 63% of women never orgasm. It's just that maybe 63% of women, or like, I mean, there's certainly a percentage of women who don't orgasm typically in general, but there's also a lot of women who they can orgasm through like touching with fingers, through oral sex, through fingering and getting oral sex at the same time, by using a vibrator. So actually it's like a much higher rate. So these rates the rates of orgasm go up significantly when you're talking about women having sex with women. And the reason is because they're focusing a lot more on clitoral stimulation. And I think, let's see, I'll have to look up the statistics, but I want to say that among women who are having sex with women, it's somewhere, it's around 60 to 80% have, have an orgasm during sex with their women, like when women are having sex with women.

So jumpstart.

Yes.

Wow. So basically, women having sex with women, there's a higher, higher chance of orgasming. Yes.

Here, I can give you a really specific statistic about that. Yes. So, okay. So for heterosexual men, there's another study that's by Justin Garcia and some of his colleagues. and they found that among heterosexual men, about 86% orgasm during most encounters. For women, for heterosexual women, they said that it's about 62%. So that's kind of like any, any type of orgasm. So I'm not talking about just intercourse. So 62%, there's orgasms happening somehow, but among lesbian women, it's 75%.

Okay, so 75% of lesbian women are able to orgasm in any type of sexual intercourse. Is that correct?

Um, well, with lesbian women, I'm not sure. Well, depends on how you're defining intercourse, I guess. But yeah, lesbian women, there's their like mean rate of orgasm occurrence during their sexual encounters is about 75%. When you're looking at heterosexual women, whether it's I mean, anything, intercourse, touching, oral sex, it's only, I mean, only, but it's 62%. So, but that's, that's sort of including everything, you know, in this study, they didn't differentiate by like what exactly types of behaviors people were doing, but probably the reason that heterosexual women are orgasming at a lower rate is because they are not engaging in as many diverse sort of types of sexual behaviors as lesbian women are.

And when you talk about oral sex, are you talking about cunnilingus?

Yes. Yep.

I just wanted to define. This is super interesting.

Yeah, cunnilingus.

Yeah, thank you. I think that's very eye-opening. So is there anything that men, heterosexual men, can learn from lesbian sexual intercourse if they would want to help their one partner increase their overall happiness and sex life?

Absolutely. Yeah, so definitely spending a lot more time on non-penis-centric activities, right? Like, you know, so spending more time stimulating the clitoris with your fingers, more time, you know, maybe with sexual touching, more time on oral sex, cunnilingus, and not focusing on penis and vagina intercourse as sort of the main event. Because it's very clear that that type of sexual behavior is not as likely to lead to orgasm for women. And so spending a lot more time and understanding that orgasms, women's orgasms may be more likely to occur during these other behaviors and sort of focusing on those behaviors is definitely something that heterosexual men can learn from lesbian women. I would also say—

I have a question for you. Yeah. How can heterosexual men become better at cunnilingus? That's an existential question I've had all my life.

Great. Yeah, probably A, practice. B, feedback session. Yeah, feedback session. Be like, okay, we're going to do this where I am going to go down on you and you're going to tell me what's working. I'm going to try a couple of moves here and I want you to be open and honest about what works for you, what doesn't work for you. You know, things like that. Like, I think that's probably a way that men— but, you know, a lot of men, it's like they just want to like go down there and they're like, check me out, I'm doing it all. Obviously you like this because how could you not? Like, and it's like, you know, they're not actually asking for feedback and they're not open to feedback. It's like they, they get offended if women tell them like, hey, maybe I might like it like this, or, you know, I don't really like that motion, or, you know, I'd prefer it if you did it this way. There's a lot of men who get offended and like upset. Upset and like, well, I guess you just don't like me in bed then. I guess I'm just bad in bed. It's like, no, no, you've got to go down there and be like, all right, let's do this. Tell me everything. Tell me everything you like. You know, tell me what you don't like. I'm here to learn. Be my teacher. That's what they can do is they can be more open to that.

Awesome. Any other recommended learnings that heterosexual men could learn from lesbians?

Yeah, I think that, you know, decentering genital and orgasm sex generally— so this may be a controversial take, right— is that this idea that like you have to be having sex all the time in order to have a successful relationship, it's not necessarily true. And a lot of times when we're talking about lesbian relationships, it's like when their sex is not defined necessarily in the same way. When we say lesbian sex and lesbian sexuality, It might mean, you know, genital touching, reaching orgasm, you know, like in the way that we typically think of women and men having sex. But they also focus a lot more on sort of like sensual sexuality. And they see sexuality often as a more expansive experience. You know, it's not about like, let's get into bed naked and finger each other. You know, it's about like those small touches throughout the day, you know, the kissing, you know, Focusing on kissing is something that like we don't do enough. And so expanding sort of like what our vision of sexuality can even look like can really, I think, be great for women's sexuality in general and not just focusing on like, okay, let's get naked and do this. It's, it's, it's about so much more. And I think that there's a lot of research suggesting that lesbian women, it's like they actually tend to have sex, sex in terms of genital touching and orgasm. Less frequently than heterosexual couples do. But that doesn't mean that they are less sexual people. It means that, you know, their sex and the ways that they're experiencing sexuality and sensuality and intimacy with their partners might just look really different. You know, there's another researcher, her name is Dr. Deb Tolman, and she talks a lot about just kissing. Like, just, just think back to when you were a teenager and how hot kissing was. Like, you could just kiss forever. You could make out for hours. But when's the last time that you just made out with somebody for hours and just deeply enjoyed how fun and sexy that can be? You know, it's like this, this hyperfocus on genital sex is just constricting the ways that we can be sexual beings in other ways. You know, go make out with your partner, you know, in a park somewhere for like an hour without worrying about whether it's going to lead to intercourse or orgasm or something. And creating a more expansive vision of what sexuality can look like can be really exciting, and I think great for women's sexual lives.

So we're like really forgetting about the other outcomes. I love it. Um, thank you so much. Let me just think. So what are scientific top 3 tips for a fulfilling partner-partner relationship? So let's forget about lesbians or heterosexual. Like, how do you create this fulfilling and I'm saying partner to partner, across any types of identity?

Yeah, I think that working on sexual communication and feelings of sexual safety in general is probably like a top priority. So, you know, I've mentioned multiple times this sort of openness to sexual communication. I mean, learning how to bring up conversations about sex in the first place. So talking about the things that you want and desire, but then also being open open to hearing that and also open to negotiation, right? Like, you're— especially when you're in, you know, a monogamous long-term relationship, your partner might have sexual needs or desires that you just can't meet. And being open to understanding, like, well, is there a way that we can meet in the middle? What does that look like? How do I create a sense of, like, compatibility and compromise between partners? And I think having, like, a real vulnerable openness to that is really key. You know, so, and also when I say like creating a sense of sexual safety, it's like, I think there's a lot of women out there who would love to know, like, if we just stopped having sex, would you still love me? You know, like, would you still care about me and want to be in this relationship? And are you here for me and who I am as a person? Or are you here because you expect, like, you know, you're here for me as a person, but you're ready to like drop that in a minute if I don't have sex with you at least once a week, right? Like that creates this looming sense of obligation and duty and reduces feelings of sexual safety. It's like you have to feel as though you can bring your needs to your partner and talk about them and that they're going to be open to that because they want, you know, to make you feel safe and secure. Of course, on the other side of that, you could also say like, well, some people see themselves as sexual beings and they do expect to have sex a certain amount within their relationship and they'll get frustrated if, you know, their partner says that, hey, I don't want to have sex anymore. But I think being able to have conversations about that, potentially seeing a therapist or a third party who can help you navigate that kind of conversation, and trying to come up with a compromise that truly shows that both people are invested in creating a sense of security for one another when it comes to their sex life is really important.

Yeah, it's important, especially since it feels like there's no, like, formal playbook or field of study for people to understand. Yeah, it could be, um, it's a personal journey.

Yeah.

Closing words, uh, I think learning from you, and I think it's a very interesting world you're evolving in, and it's very enlightening for all of us. Sometimes we're just running our life, focusing on our business or family or kids, etc., and you don't think about the concept or sexual constructs and social constructs of what do we really want in our life, how did we become who we become as sexual beings as well. I would love to hear from you, what are the top 3 career tips you have for individuals who want to have a positive impact and really drive impact and make a mark in their industry, just like you're doing right now in being able to identify those gray areas that, I mean, I personally didn't know existed and, and decipher all these things that are happening across the world?

Yeah, I mean, you know, I think that certainly, you know, reading about it as much as possible and doing research, you know, when I say research, I mean just reading different perspectives, trying to— I guess you mean in terms of like impacts for people's sexual lives or just in terms of making a difference in the world, or there's so many things I could talk about.

Yeah, I think we could break it down. So what do we— let's look at the world, right? Like, looking at your career finding and trailblazing in a field like women's studies, public health, and human sexuality, of like, how can they drive impact in the field of their career, whichever field that is, whether it's an established field or a field where you need to trailblaze?

Yeah, yeah, okay. So I think that recognizing and learning about gender norms and other systems of power is really important, especially in this day and age. It's like you have to understand how masculinity, femininity, expectations for womanhood, for manhood, for, you know, being a cis person, like all of these things impact our expectations for like how we're going to move through the world. Right. And I think that they also impact who we are as people and how we engage in our friendships, our relationships, our relationships with our families. And I think that having a more critical outlook on how those things impact us is essential for changing the ways that we do things, for making sort of new strides when it comes to anything, right? Like you want to have, you know, a novel and sort of compelling, you know, business idea or structure, or you want to speak to the public in new ways. It's like you have to think about things in a more deep and critical way. And I think that a lot of people have started to do that, which is really exciting. But I think that educating ourselves about how race and about how gender and about how our sexual identities impact, I don't know, our expectations for ourselves and the people around us is so incredibly important. I will also just say that, like, I read this really great just blog post on Everyday Feminism about calling in versus calling out. And I think that that's something that we all could, like, you know, this is in tandem with what I was just saying. Where it's like, we can recognize all these power structures, we can recognize, you know, all the ways in which people are oppressed, and it's so important to do that. But it's also really important to be self-critical and open. And when we're looking at the people around us, rather than calling people out and ostracizing people, how can we call people in? How can we have, you know, constructive conversations about some of these issues that people are always going to disagree on? These power structures are not going— it's going to take a long time to dismantle them. And when you call people out and you make them feel ostracized and you make people feel judged and ashamed for, I don't know, not engaging with everything in exactly the right way, it's like that just creates more division. And there are ways— I think that, you know, anyone who's really going to make strides in the future is going to be especially talented at finding ways to call in and to build bridges when it comes to thinking about a lot of that stuff. Stuff.

I love this approach, uniting people instead of creating divisions. And, and thank you so much for your message. Thank you so much for spending the time with us. Welcome to Driving Impact.